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A good update!
>I was a bit disheartened by the behaviour of two of the kids. I can be sympathetic, as they’ve been dealing with the hoarding for much longer than the spouses have. The guys would make jokes about an expiration date, and make other insensitive comments, IMO.
So this is one of the toughest parts of dealing with a hoarding parent.
The children of hoarders (CoH), as you say, have been dealing with the hoarding for a long time Chances are good that they have some frustration and even anger about it towards the parent's hoarding. When confronting the hoard itself, they'll probably express it.
The hoarding parent, on the other hand, has a great deal of shame and embarrassment about their hoarding. Hearing their children express their thoughts, even jokingly, about the hoard is deeply hurtful to the hoarding parent and can result in set-backs.
So you're left with a conundrum:
- The children of hoarders, who need to express their feelings
- The hoarding parents, who aren't ready to process those expressions and who can suffer serious setbacks
I suggest you get your hands on a copy of Children of Hoarders: How to Minimize Conflict, Reduce the Clutter, and Improve Your Relationship by Dr. Fugen Neziroglu. The book explores strategies for communicating with hoarder parents, and outlines practical intervention skills. It also helps the CoH process their own feelings about the hoarding.
So here's the problem with negotiating with hoarders:
You can't reason someone out of a position that he didn't reason himself into.
Hoarders don't hoard because of logical reasons. Hoarding in and of itself is a fundamentally illogical. Collectible items and things with monetary value have to be stored in ways to preserve their value and they have to be insured. Hoarders don't do any of that.
Hoarders hoard because of emotional reasons. They justify their hoarding behaviors with what they perceive to be logical reasons ("It's valuable", "I might need that someday", "I'm going to use it for a project", "I'm going to sell it", etc.), but their logical doesn't bear out because they don't do any of the other things their logic would demand they do.
What researchers have found is that many hoarders acquire and keep things as a coping mechanism for extremely intense emotional pain. That pain can result from anxiety disorder, PTSD, depression, and more.
Before you attempt to help your hoarders, take a look at this post:
"I Have A Hoarder In My Life--Help Me!" Your Hoarding Quick-Start Kit
Hoarding is a bona fide mental disorder, so it's critical to educate yourself on it before you try to help your parents.
We also recommend the book Children of Hoarders: How to Minimize Conflict, Reduce the Clutter, and Improve Your Relationship by Dr. Fugen Neziroglu. The book explores strategies for communicating with hoarder parents, and outlines practical intervention skills.
> I don't know what to do at this point. I'm frustrated. I'm trying to wait to confront her until I can do so calmly, because right now I'm angry, but I need her to understand that the smell is not acceptable.
I don't know where you're located, but you might consider seeking counseling support for yourself. Learning how to establish and keep boundaries with someone who's dealing with a mental illness is very difficult, and a good therapist can give you the right tools for it
I also recommend the book Children of Hoarders: How to Minimize Conflict, Reduce the Clutter, and Improve Your Relationship by Dr. Fugen Neziroglu. The book explores strategies for communicating with hoarder parents, and outlines practical intervention skills.
It's part memoir, part self-help, but Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl. It's written by a Jewish psychologist who was sent to a concentration camp during WWII, and used his experience to write a guide on coping with suffering. Despite the intimidating title, it's a short book and a quick read, and has definitely jolted me from a few ruts in my life.
This one might be a bit better - Beverley Engel - The Emotionally Abusive Relationship. It's less gendered than others and might be more helpful.
There is a book called "Brain Lock" on the treatment of obsessive-compulsive disorder which you may find helpful. It shows that the brain can change with treatment. There is hope.
OCD may be a component of hoarding behavior and you may find the approach described would be useful.
Here is a link to the Amazon listing so you can check a preview of it.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01CY3A8V6/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1
Get yourself a copy of the book Children of Hoarders: How to Minimize Conflict, Reduce the Clutter, and Improve Your Relationship by Dr. Fugen Neziroglu. The book explores strategies for communicating with hoarder parents, and outlines practical intervention skills.
Yeah it sounds like pretty classic contamination OCD. It probably would be best to see an OCD specialist because OCD can change and evolve on you, the theme really isn't that important. At the end of the day, the harder you fight this the deeper you will go down with your OCD. The way out is to accept uncertainty, maybe you got spit on you maybe not, and go about your life.
If you saw an OCD specialist they would do ERP with you, which stands for Exposure and response prevention. So in essence, you are exposed to something you fear. (Being spit on or being dirty) and then you do not perform any compulsions. You work on stopping rumination and you do not clean yourself. This is you telling your brain that these thoughts are not useful and the anxiety eventually subsides. Meditation will help decoupling the thoughts from what is actually real, but as you can see it's only a small part of the puzzle.
Freedom from OCD is a good place to start to learn about what is actually going on. Battling OCD is something that is that seems super daunting, and requires a fair amount of learning and research, but once you are outside of the hole it seems much easier than it seemed in retrospect.
So sorry you're dealing with this.
If you haven't already, check out Children of Hoarders: How to Minimize Conflict, Reduce the Clutter, and Improve Your Relationship by Dr. Fugen Neziroglu. The book explores strategies for communicating with hoarder parents, and outlines practical intervention skills.
Now, this book was written pre-COVID, so some of those strategies and interventions aren't going to be useful right now. But there's a lot of good information about why your parents might hoard, and how you can start planting the seeds in their minds of them getting comfortable with the idea of decluttering critical areas of the house.
The treatment for BFRBS is Comprehensive Behavioral Treatment.
OCD is a can be vast and there are many umbrella terms. It’s also much more difficult because the themes could change. In my youth I had contamination OCD, as a teen it was harm and as an adult it’s religious. We have no control (obviously) on the themes if they change. I didn’t take medication and did minimal therapy (because of the pandemic) but I read a lot. A LOT. And that’s what helped me. I’m in a place where I could do self guided CBT lessons and pushed myself to do ERP—both of which have seen success with OCD. Not everyone can do that and need more assistance from a trained therapist or doctor because it OCD can be debilitating. There’s a lot of great advice in here so I’ll just wrap it by throwing in a book I read three times over and what helped the bulk of my OCD. He can read it as it was made for people with OCD but even if you read it, you can get an idea of what may be running through someone’s mind.
https://www.amazon.com/Needing-Know-Sure-Overcoming-Reassurance-ebook/dp/B07MMQ7HRK
Hats off to you for wanting to understand. I hope you don’t get overwhelmed and I hope your son is able to get the assistance he needs in one way or another.
Sorry, that message got sent as I was interrupted, but it seems you caught my meaning.
OCPD might actually be the most common of all, although it's perhaps the least likely to be diagnosed. This is in part because it is extremely compatible with capitalism.
I was married to an upwOCPD... the condition is the deadly drought to BPD's hellspawned hurricane. Almost certain in retrospect that the mystery condition plaguing the mother she went NC with after college was BPD.
I see a lot of comments saying that exercise relieves anger and certainly it does just that. I would add that if anger keeps Coming back you’re just going to exercise yourself to death. There are some books that address this issue so that you can stop creating all this anger. Here is one book https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009U9S6FI/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_hsch_vapi_tkin_p1_i0. Jordan Peterson has many YouTube videos on forgiveness. There are also many Buddhist and Zen books and videos on forgiveness and general gratitude. You’re going to have to stop the creation of the anger and Nippet in the bud. If a Holocaust survivor can’t forgive and thrive it’s possible that you can too
I have a lot of anxiety too; I read a bunch of stuff recommended by my therapist. Needing to Know for Sure by Martin Seif book helped the most because it teaches you to distance yourself from your thoughts-observing them as “other” rather than acting on them/internalizing them. Honestly though, exercise is the best. I started yoga and it changed my life in terms of anxiety. I encourage you to find a way to exercise that works for you, even just walking is good for the body. Best of luck on your journey.
Ive been browsing around here like crazy and i saw this link that might help you. It looks like it has some content around overcoming the shame and guilt of growing up with hoarders. Maybe its worth looking into?
Hoping for great outcomes in your life.
Cognitive science is a huge field, so it depends what you're interested in.
I wrote a comment just yesterday with example content under the field here: https://www.reddit.com/r/IWantToLearn/comments/sqjxor/iwtl_how_to_improve_intelligence_memory_and/hwmgh7z/ But it probably isn't what you're interested in.
If you care about people being alive you could join a local philosophy club. Most universities have them and accept people outside of the university.
As for alive or dead, the human condition does not change, so imo it shouldn't matter if they're alive as long as they're within the last 200 years, due to English not having changed enough within this time they might as well be modern.
This last week I've been listening to Man's Search for Meaning which is pretty good.
It all depends what you're looking for. Peterson can be good at little 101 snippets into things, but it's far from the end all be all, and he often stops short with himself that causes him hurdles he can't even figure out to jump over, which I find sad. It would be nice if he went further for himself so he could get rid of his anxiety issues, his drug habit, his stomach pains, and other issues.
According to the author of this NYT Bestseller written by Roy F. Baumeister, a psychologist and researcher who got his psychology PHD from Princeton, the BEST way to NOT do something is to AVOID it. You can't control whether or not you're attracted to someone, but if you're trying to not get into a sticky situation the best thing you can do it to AVOID them :)
I hope that these types of ppl become more and more marginalized, and we can eventually stop thinking and talking about them. I’m not sure humans will ever be rid of all prejudice, but I think it is slowly becoming rarer. It’ll be nice to look on a racist more with wonder as if spotting a unicorn than with anger. Like, ‘Wow you exist?’
Anyway, nice talking to you. And if you’re interested in Frankl’s story, his most famous book is Man’s Search for Meaning:
https://www.amazon.com/Mans-Search-Meaning-Viktor-Frankl-ebook/dp/B009U9S6FI
Probably this will get buried, but it all comes down to willpower. I strongly recommend reading this book to get to understand what actually willpower is and how it works:
To paraphrase one of the main things i got took from this book; willpower works like a muscle: the more you use it during a day (the more you get tired during the day), the more difficult it is to make decisions based on willpower. So, the more rested you are, the more easy it is to make choices based on willpower. But the more you make the same choice based on willpower over the course of a longer time periode, the less energy you use to make the same decision.
So, the takeout from this would be that you need a lot of high quality sleep, which you get from a healthy lifestyle, to over time being able to maintain this routine.
I think I can help here. I have a psyc degree. Look into existential/humanistic psychology. Empathy is always a good thing to improve on. An excellent starting point IMO is Man’s Search for Meaning by Frankl. It’s short and easy to read, but the plot is difficult. I had this book assigned for class in undergrad, and I revisit it once every few years. My wife recently read it for the first time and it led to many great discussions.
https://www.amazon.com/Mans-Search-Meaning-Viktor-Frankl-ebook/dp/B009U9S6FI
Therapy is you can afford it.
Sorry to add to what is already a long reply, but it really sounds like you are beginning to dwell deeply on the mystery of human suffering for the first time, so I have a couple of recommendations:
- I strongly recommend you read Viktor Frankel's <em>Man's Search for Meaning</em>. I will buy this book for you if you can't spend the money now. (Just let me know.) This book has nothing to do with homosexuality and virtually nothing to do with religion per se, certainly not Christianity. Frankel is a beloved and reputable scholar recommended by mainstream clinical psychiatrists everywhere. The man lost almost his entire family in death camps and still found meaning there.
- I strongly recommend you read the book of Job with a Catholic commentary or study guide. This is one of the greatest books of the Bible, overlooked and misunderstood by almost everyone. This video with Rabbi Yitzchak Breitowitz gives a very, very beautiful and wise talk on Job, and he gets at the heart of what Frankel knew, and what every person needs to know about suffering. This is what Catholics believe as well.
Bottom line: You do not deserve this. It's not fair. So why would God put you through it? This is the question Frankel discusses in a technical, psychological context and which Job asks of God in a religious and philosophical context.
u/okpickle we have a post specifically for loved ones of hoarders: "I Have A Hoarder In My Life--Help Me!" Your Hoarding Quick-Start Kit. I especially recommend that you read the book Children of Hoarders: How to Minimize Conflict, Reduce the Clutter, and Improve Your Relationship by Dr. Fugen Neziroglu. The book explores strategies for communicating with hoarder parents, and outlines practical intervention skills.
Hoarding is a very complex mental disorder, and about half the time it's co-morbid with other mental health issues such as depression disorders, anxiety disorders, trauma disorders, or more. It's critical to educate yourself on hoarding disorder so that you don't inadvertently make things worse.
Sounds like its very possible you have OCD. I'd google or ask your doctor for a reference for a therapist. (I like NOCD.com as well)
Maybe as you're putting that in motion read up about it? I like Greyson's book as an intro to the disorder. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00DYX9PX8/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1
Ok got it. I would say books would be key for you right now. Therapists are not quick people. I'd start reading everytime you feel that OCD anxiety (and are not working of course.) I had a bad period during the pandemic and went from falling apartment to completely manageable within a month. (I'm still working on things but generally feel good and can live no problem.)
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00DYX9PX8 I would start with this. Then if you want more specific suggestions based on what you are going through after just shoot me a PM.
Also recommended by my current counselor: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01CY3A8V6/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1 (no I have no financial incentive to post that link, just want to share)... the book is called "Brain Lock".
No, porn can't "change" your sexual orientation. Watching porn can be a compulsion and way of reassuring yourself, which will just make your OCD and anxiety worse, so I suggest staying away from it. If it helps, download and install software that keeps you away from it. What you need to do is Exposure Response Prevention (ERP). So you have the thought "I'm gay (or lesbian, or bi or whatever)". Now, you need to say it over and over until you get used to it. Maybe you're gay and maybe you're not. Part of recovering from HOCD is dealing with the uncertainty. If that sounds too hard, start with the statement "In Egypt, there was a young man (I'm assuming you're a guy?) who thought he might be gay." four times each, four times a day and bring it closer and closer--next might be Africa, Mexico, France, etc., until it's eventually where you live. It helps to have a therapist, but you can do ERP on your own. I have a workbook, "The OCD Workbook: third edition: Your Guide to Breaking Free From Obsessive Compulsive Disorder" by Bruce M. Hyman, Ph.D., and Cherry Pedrick, RN. It's really good and helps a lot. You can buy the book on Amazon, and it will be the best $15 you ever spent:
Oh I hateeee OCD. If they were a person I would never hang out with them ever lol. They freaking suck! It’s really shitty how it hijacks your life. I’ve had OCD my entire life, and still struggle with it daily. It used to be like ritual based, but now all the compulsions are in my head, and I struggle with pure O, where I’m constantly questioning myself. Exposure therapy definitely helped, but I would say it didn’t cure me 100%. I think the biggest positive change now is I can see how the OCD functions, and I’m able to spot it and respond to it as OCD, rather than as a genuine thing to be taken seriously. I have heard of people being 100% cured, but to me I don’t know if that will ever happen. It’s like if you’re an alcoholic and you get sober, a part of you will always want a drink. But you’re able to manage that part, and treat with intention, instead of letting it consume you. Not trying to discourage you at all, I just think having reachable goals is really important. Have you ever read these books?
https://www.amazon.com/Needing-Know-Sure-Overcoming-Reassurance-ebook/dp/B07MMQ7HRK
They helped me a ton. Also feel free to message me too! :)
If you haven't already, take the time to read Children of Hoarders: How to Minimize Conflict, Reduce the Clutter, and Improve Your Relationship by Dr. Fugen Neziroglu. The book explores strategies for communicating with hoarder parents, and outlines practical intervention skills. It also shows readers how to let go of the personal shame and guilt associated with being the child of a hoarder.
Ahh yes, my own personal demon. Someone else suggested magnesium, and I will second this by suggesting looking into getting a hormone test done and seeing if it's out of balance. When I have a good diet for a while, my trich is less of an issue. Generally this is also when my anxiety is lower and my hormones are more balanced.
I didn't have much luck with therapy (could be from not going enough though), though my last therapist recommended this book to me that just came out on the topic: https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B07MT5MP5Y?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share