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The King James Only Controversy: Can You Trust Modern Translations? by James White would probably be your best bet in understanding KJVO adherents.
Its truly pathetic that an "editorial" like this, which is nothing more or less than christian evangelism, is allowed on Fox News.
> I was mad at my father for beating my mother. I was angry at a man who worked on our farm and sexually abused me from ages 6 to 13. All of this led to me to really despise God, religion and anything to do with the church.
I question whether this is even true. Who "hates God" because they're being abused (unless you were actually being abused by a priest?) Who "hates God" if they are (as he claims he was) an agnostic? It just suspiciously sounds like he's recapitulating (and personalizing) the claim that atheists aren't atheists, they're just people who insincerely deny the existence of god and actually "hate" god. This is a great start, for a "scholar" to even lie (or be lying to himself) about his own origin story.
> The historical evidence really indicated that Jesus died, was buried, and rose on the third day.
Yeah... Pretty sure he's referring to the bible itself. He's being so stingy in this sources! So we have to just take his word for it? Why not unveil (just a little of) this tsunami-like evidence?!
His book is on Amazon, and the reviews (all 5-star) are predictably amusing:
https://www.amazon.com/New-Evidence-That-Demands-Verdict/dp/0785242198
I'm always amazed how baldly christians phrase their own dilemma:
> According to the Apostle Paul, if Christ did not rise from the dead, then Christianity is false, and Christians are to be pitied (1 Corinthians 15:14, 17). But if Jesus did rise, then Christianity is true.
christians have a very difficult time convincing me that jesus was ever taken off the cross. the point of the execution by crucifix wasn't just the torture unto death, it was leaving the corpse on the crucifix to decay and to desecrate the corpse. it's perplexing that this historical fact isn't widely known.
First of all, you can't convince anyone. "Those convinced against their will are of the same opinion still.". All you can do is answer as best as you can in love and live your life.
If you are after some quick answers, there are plenty of conversations and answers about these topics on this sub along.
I would recommend something like this book which addresses apologetics.
But if you wanted a longer conversation about your questions feel free to DM me.
I agree with everything but point #1. I recommend you read a book called "The King James Only Controversy" by James White. Most modern translations are not only fine, but better than (more accurate) the KJV.
Hey! Glad you’re asking and glad you’re taking the topic seriously. I think it was the seriousness of the topics and taking seriously those we were leading that led a lot of us to the outcomes in which we landed.
I’m a pastor as well! I work in the PCUSA. I work in an open/affirming church! In fact our worship minister left to be a drag queen 😂😂😂. They said they could make more money that way. Which...may be a damning indictment on how much we get paid lol.
A book that was crucial for me in this conversation was sex and the single savior by Dale Martin. It works through interpretation and rhetoric we use when talking about the Bible. Maybe it’ll be helpful for you as well!
Not a website or an app, but a scholarly book about what the first five books of the bible mean in context: https://www.amazon.com/Sources-Revealed-Richard-Elliott-Friedman/dp/006073065X
I recommend it, very fun read. A starting point at least.
Don’t pay to much attention to the above comment this dudes obviously a kjv onlyist watch this video to see why it’s a myth and you should read this book that goes into the Greek of it all and compares all the objections to using modern translations and shows that the kjv and other translations are all reliable (there is some translations like the passion translation that added stuff that shouldn’t be there and it’s a terrible translation). Also remember there are an estimated 300+ words in the kjv that mean slightly different things now as stated in the video I linked.
The funny thing about the verse against women teaching is that the book it appears in (1 Timothy) is almost certainly written by someone other than Paul, claiming to be Paul.
For Paul's views on sexuality, I highly recommend everyone read Dale Martin's Sex and the Single Savior. He's a brilliant Bible scholar who is also an out gay man and a Christian, and does a thorough yet readable job of exploring the basically alien ancient context in which Paul was writing.
An alternative is Dale Martin's book, Sex and the Single Savior.
https://www.amazon.com.au/Sex-Single-Savior-Sexuality-Interpretation/dp/0664230466
I would recommend to you "Four Views on Hell." https://www.amazon.com/Four-Views-Hell-Counterpoints-Theology/dp/0310516463/ref=sr_1_1?crid=33B00WLKJFE4V&keywords=four+views+of+hell&qid=1669822076&sprefix=four+views+of+hell%2Caps%2C134&sr=8-1
It covers, as one might surmise, 4 different perspectives, one being annihilationism.
I love your thoughts on the similarities between Jesus' and Paul's shrewdness in their imprisonment.
>does anyone know of some good resources to take a layman systematically through all the times the N/T quotes the Old
Oh, man, there's a great book on that: <strong><em>Commentary on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament</em></strong>, edited by G. K. Beale and D. A. Carson. It's a big text, but that's because it covers everything imaginable in terms of NT use of the OT. If you want a go-to reference for this topic, you can't beat this.
G. K. Beale has written a couple of other books on this topic as well, and some of them are shorter than this one, but they're very academic. You may find them helpful if you're into that sort of thing, but since you specifically mentioned a text for a layman, they may not be terribly useful.
Maybe a book study discussion?
The second edition of Zondervan’s Four Views on Hell is pretty balanced: https://www.amazon.com/Four-Views-Hell-Counterpoints-Theology/dp/0310516463 I’ve also heard good things about Steve Gregg’s All You Want To Know About Hell: https://www.amazon.com/All-Want-Know-About-Hell/dp/1401678300
To su dva različita kuta gledanja. Teolozi uzimaju vjeru uglavnom zdravo za gotovo, ovi drugi baš i ne.
Ako te zanimaju počeci, doba Isusa i znaš engleski, preporučio bih ti bilo što od Barta Ehrmana, ali uz upozorenje da je riječ o agnostiku/ateistu (bivšem vjerniku).
Ako znaš engleski i imaš puno vremena, knjiga <em>The Historical Jesus: The Life of a Mediterranean Jewish Peasant</em> J. D. Crossana (čovjek je vjernik, ali svakako ne tradicionalni, recimo ne vjeruje da je Isus uskrsnuo) je izuzetno opsežna i zanimljiva, ali nije baš jednostavna za čitanje, jer ide u velike detalje tko je jeo s kim itd. i svakako zahtijeva bar osnovna predznanja o Bibliji, istraživanju tekstova itd.
Nema knjige koja bi obuhvatila svih 2000 godina jer je jednostavno previše toga, previše crkava, previše varijanti. Obuhvatiti kopte i kvekere u jednoj knjizi je jednostavno previše.
The context and language is very important, as well as the type of literature. For instance, it is clear that when Jesus tells a parable, it is not literal. But a large proportion of the Bible is intended as historical narrative. A book I will recommend is How to Read the Bible for All It's Worth
>But God refuses to meet his burden of proof.
I'm curious what your expectation is in this matter - or what you mean by "his" burden of proof.
>Why doesn't God show me rewards for faith?
The rewards the bible tells Christians to expect are disdain and persecution, what rewards were you expecting? monetary? emotional? spiritual? really curious what you were looking for from God.
>And yet I am to be tormented for an eternity?
Nope - I think you are on the money here. It doesn't make sense for a just God to torment people for eternity. I'm an annihilationist, so no eternal suffering in my understanding of the Bible
I walked out of church when I was 17 and while I still had a belief that God was there somewhere I didn't want much to do with him. I decided to go my own way. But it turned out that my life got a lot worse without him in it. It took my many years of study and looking for God, but I eventually decided to be baptised and become a real Christian. This book helped with apologetics but most of all I started praying and really opening up my life to God. I didn't expect anything of him, but the more I stuck with God the more I noticed his movements in my life. He is close to you I promise.
For the Pentateuch, I would definitely recommend the Bible with Sources Revealed by Richard Elliott Friedman. (https://www.amazon.com/Sources-Revealed-Richard-Elliott-Friedman/dp/006073065X)
I refer to it all the time. I'm not sure all of his assignments are undisputed, but it is a great place to start.
I wouldn't look at this for occult interpretation or meaning, although the occult interpretations usually aren't that far removed from exoteric or lay interpretations (despite how much occultists would like to protest), it's just that in the occult the 'fractal' nature of Scripture (whether Abrahamic or Vedantic or Buddhist or whatever) is generally carried to such an extreme that you literally feel the resonance of the passages--you can get this from Jungian interpretation as well (and fwiw, I'd count Jung as an occultist).
But, that said, this is a good translation as far as I can tell (read through the first couple chapters of Genesis) and is modern-enough that you won't strain against the language (like you may with the King James version).
It depends on a couple of things.
What does "God's Word" mean to you? Does it mean God dictated the Bible directly? Not many churches make that claim. Does it mean that God inpired the authors to write what they wrote? Or is it just a bunch of folks writing about their experiences with God with zero divine input?
For me the Bible seems to claim more the second option. The Holy Spirit inspired men to write down inspired truths about God in their own words.
So what kind of validity are you looking for? I'm curious about what kind of evidence you are after? Are you after historical evidence that tracks with what has been written in the Bible? Theres plenty of that. Or are you looking for internal evidence of consistency? Or some kind of divine evidence? I mean, plenty of folks are happy with the level of prophecy in the Bible (which if you're looking for something that differentiates it from other religions is probably a good place to start ). You might be interested in this book which has a lot of apologetical evidences listed in it.
And keep asking questions! Blessings.
>From Robert Alter: > >> If one sustains the assumption that the accused wife is pregnant, the phrase would mean that she retains her pregnancy, now proven to be legitimate, and will be rewarded with progeny
i don't think this follows. the text reads,
>> וְנִקְּתָה, וְנִזְרְעָה זָרַע
these are imperfect tenses; she will be cleared, and she will seed seed ("conceive").
now this may imply that the ancient hebrew author didn't think "seeding" happened until birth, which is an interesting idea.
>The positive evidence that it 'was preformed on or meant to be performed on a pregnant woman' is that the woman was suspected to have engaged in activity that could impregnate her. This ritual rectifies a property crime against the husband, who could be economically and socially disadvantaged by raising an illegitimate child
interestingly, the talmud recommends delaying the punishment apparently for precisely the reason that it could harm a child.
>> Establishing that the state could end a pregnancy does not prove that God was ok with people having abortions
indeed, this is not a woman with bodily autonomy. it's exactly the opposite. she has no choice in the matter; it's an honor killing.
>The effects of the potion come from God, not nature: water and dirt doesn't make an abortifacient. If the passages refer to pregnancy and miscarriage and if you really think this was a ritual commanded by God Himself, then the implications are obvious. It's your choice to believe it, literally
there's a possibility here worth considering. it could be straight placebo. it may never work.
> Yes, "thigh" is a euphemism as it often is, but it's not a euphemism for "womb" but of the primary sexual organs of both sexes. That her sexual organs will rot away
בִטְנָ֔הּ "belly" is used as a euphemism for womb: "her belly will swell and her thigh sag". The word וְנָפְלָ֖ה is more commonly translated by modern scholars as "sag" or "fall away", not rot
> The passage indicates that the women in question is not pregnant at the time
No, it doesn't. The women is suspected to have engaged in "seed-coupling" (13 Alter) and "[if] a man other than your husband has put his semen in you..." (20 Alter). If the woman engaged in intercourse, it's likely that she is now pregnant
> then she will be free of ill effects and will be able to bear children
From Robert Alter:
> If one sustains the assumption that the accused wife is pregnant, the phrase would mean that she retains her pregnancy, now proven to be legitimate, and will be rewarded with progeny
The positive evidence that it 'was preformed on or meant to be performed on a pregnant woman' is that the woman was suspected to have engaged in activity that could impregnate her. This ritual rectifies a property crime against the husband, who could be economically and socially disadvantaged by raising an illegitimate child
> Establishing that the state could end a pregnancy does not prove that God was ok with people having abortions
The effects of the potion come from God, not nature: barley flour, water, and dirt doesn't make an abortifacient. If the passages refer to pregnancy and miscarriage and if you really think this was a ritual commanded by God Himself, then the implications are obvious
Sorry to burst your bubble.... Many people lie for attention and/or money. Often. Very often. And many bolster this by lying to folks who are already predisposed by their religion to believing fantastic things while demanding little or no proof.
This guy is a charlatan who is either trying to sell books and speaking engagements, or who is prepping to start selling books and speaking engagements.
Yes, it is a sin to lie... Especially to lie about matters of the soul. You should email this guy and let him know that.
And yes, the modem Christian concept of hell has more to do with Dantes inferno and European mythology than anything else. Your first clue on this is how God seems to have to missed that whole "Christian hell" part during the his long interactions with the Jewish people, who have concepts of an afterlife quite different from, say, modern evangelicals.
I know Christianity tends to attract folks who seek authority and certainty in their lives, but, like it or not, there are at least four different doctrines of hell in Christianity, and the one favored by the pastor of your church isn't necessarily right.
I have not read this book myself but it’s been recommended to me a lot.
Four Views on Hell: Second Edition (Counterpoints: Bible and Theology) https://www.amazon.com/dp/0310516463/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_i_P1RAYTFH04FXB1VWPMX1
The Bible is the inspired Word of God, given through people at specific times and places in their specific cultures and in their languages. We live in very different cultures, a very different time and speak different languages - some confusion is expected.
Try reading some old English stories, from many hundreds of years ago, like beowulf.They are hard to comprehend and were written in a culture and language more similar to ours than the Bible.
https://www.amazon.com/How-Read-Bible-All-Worth/dp/0310517826 is a great beginner's guide.
I am so sorry to see you in such distress. You might want to learn about exegesis. A great book for those who don't have a degree in theology is how to read the bible for all its worth
https://www.amazon.com/How-Read-Bible-All-Worth/dp/0310517826
One basic concept is prescriptive vs. descriptive scripture. The Bible is the inspired word of God, but delivered through human hands in specific times and places. Verses describing a male dominant culture are descriptive of a fallen world, not prescriptive of the way God made us to be. God did not make women to be inferior to men, He made them different from one another, but I think those specific differences are not clear, they are overshadowed by the false differences put on by human cultures, ancient AND modern.
King David is often referred to as "a man after God's own heart". He was full of sin, selfishness, sexual sin, he was a horrible husband and father. Does that mean God wants us all to live lives like David did? Of course not.
David's virtue lay in his repentance, he was open to God's correction. When the prophet Nathan accused David of adultery, David didn't have Nathan killed and ignore the warning, but he repented and begged for forgiveness.
God loves you, in a way that no human can. He is willing and able to help you live a fulfilling life on earth, and welcome you into heaven where he will heal you from all the damage of sin from our earthly lives.
Please don't put the blame on God for the sins of people.
Not familiar with Grand rapids.
The King James Only Controversy: Can You Trust Modern Translations? https://www.amazon.com/dp/0764206052/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_glt_i_XGF8H3PD3ADPE1MW47ND.
Regardless, that's the best book. One of the only modern scholastic approaches to the "controversy". I highly reccomend it.
Progressive Christians generally acknowledge that there are many incredibly problematic passages in the Bible, but still find peace in beliefs that are no problematic: that God loves and accepts his creation, that God wants his creation to love and accept each other, that God lifts up the downtrodden and condemns greed, violence, and abuse. Sometimes the Bible reflects that, other times it doesn't. The Bible consists of about 700 years of vastly different cultures and philosophies, so of course it wildly contradicts itself. Finding something worth believing in all of that, that makes you a better person, and that makes the world a kinder, more loving place -- that's what progressive Christianity often is.
On a more specific note, Dale Martin is a Yale professor of religious studies and a gay Christian man; his entire semester of New Testament is freely available on YouTube. I've watched the whole class and think it's brilliant, but he's also written a book I have not read called Sex and the Single Savior, which looks like it confronts a number of these issues. He is an absolutely brilliant scholar, and the course he teaches at Yale answers all of your concerns more eloquently and elegantly than I could ever hope to. Of course, it's literally a semester of college, so it is not short. But I do hope you check it out.
I agree with Paul, in context. Do a bit of research on how to interpret the Bible. A great book is how to read the bible for all it's worth.
How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth: Fourth Edition https://www.amazon.com/dp/0310517826/ref=cm_sw_r_awdo_navT_g_5KXJDX55TD83XSR0WJQ0
You will see that some things were written to specific people in a specific time and/or place, and other things are written as guidance for us, while others are written as historical texts, and some as directives for us (go into all the world... great commandment and great commission)
IMHO, those directives of Paul were to address orderly worship in a particular society, not a directive for all people. At that time, there was much disorder, gossip, and strife coming from many women in some of the new churches. Some have speculated it was due to the newfound gender equality and learning how to handle it.
One of the best resources I've found is Grasping Gods Word by Scott Duvall.
It seems to be a textbook for bible college. But it is very accessible for laypeople like us. Gives a lot of good foundation for studying scripture. It's worth the time and investment in my opinion.
One resource I like is Grasping Gods Word by Scott Duvall.
It seems like a college/seminary textbook on how to study the Bible. But very approachable for laypeople. It really helped me a lot.
Looks like they even have a workbook and DVD set available for it now.
The counterpoint series of books has a great one on 4 different theologies on Hell which may interest you.