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Just going to plug Robert Alter's excellent (imo) translation and note on these verses. He has an even more nuanced take than the blah-blah-blah that conveys the nonsense of it in more hebrew terms. He translates this section as follows
>“7 And these, too, blundered through wine
and through strong drink went astray.
Priest and prophet blundered through strong drink,
were confounded through wine,
went astray through strong drink,
blundered with the seer,
juddered in judgment.
8 For all the tables were covered with vomit,
filth, with no space left.
9 To whom will they teach knowledge
and to whom will they convey lessons?—
to the milk-weaned,
to babes pulled from the breast?
10 For it is filth-pilth, filth-pilth,
vomit-momit, vomit-momit,
a little here, a little there.
11 For in a barbarous tongue
and in alien language
He shall speak to this people
12 to whom He said, “This is rest—leave it for the weary,
and this is repose,” and they did not want to listen.
13 And the word of the LORD became for them—
filth-pilth, filth-pilth,
vomit-momit, vomit-momit,
a little here, a little here.
So that they should walk and stumble backward,
and be broken, snared, and trapped.”
and his comment on the word choice
>“Wildly divergent interpretations have been proposed for these words. The literal sense would seem to be: “precept precept, line line.” But if precepts are at issue here, they are precepts that have been turned into gibberish by these drunkards. The phonetic kinship between tsaw, precept or command, and tsoʾah, filth or excrement, and between qaw, line, and qiʾ, vomit, is surely not accidental. The translation seeks to convey both this correspondence and the effect of gibberish.”
I really recommend it! His major intention (as I read him) is to illuminate the basic structure of the original text, so you really get a feel for the poetic and narrative forms/tropes these bronze age poets found powerful. Personally, I love thinking about texts that way: trying to see what the author is doing on an intellectual level. It's absolutely wild to me, being pointed to subtle linguistic effects crafted three thousand years ago that have retained the power to move a reader. Makes you think about just how hardwired language is in the brain.
The whole set is kinda expensive, but the second volume has the book of Job, which IMO is his best translation of the Hebrew Bible's most interesting book, for 10 bucks.
Quick google
Edit: there’s a book on the matter lol https://www.amazon.com/Fourth-Beast-Donald-Trump-Antichrist-ebook/dp/B01HQTHUAA
The Good Book is a Humanist Bible written by the same author, A.C. Grayling
I suppose it can. Not everyone really gets into breaking down all the elements, but I find it particularly interesting. If you're interested in exploring Christian symbolism, I really like Jonathan Pageau. If you're more of a left-brain type, his brother Matthieu wrote a fine book called The Language of Creation.
there are certantly deeply symbolic threads to the Bible especially Genesis. reading it symbolically as a true story opens up new dimensions. just remember that symbolic doesn't mean it's not true. Jordan Peterson has a free YouTube Bible series where he gives his take on the archetypal dimensions of Genesis and exodus.
if you want something more traditional then I would encourage you to read the Ignatius study Bible by Scott Hahn. excellent notes.
but if you want a deeply symbolic deep dive into the macro symbols of the old testament then you could read the language of creation by Matthew pageou https://www.amazon.com/Language-Creation-Cosmic-Symbolism-Genesis-ebook/dp/B07D738HD8
very dense stuff. here is a video series that outlines all.of the chapters. highly recommend the video series. it connects symbolic interpretations with pop culture. https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL390xzhnMZ7X7PWW-dhK51bwrvWujCOxl
Much of that only makes any sense at all if you understand ancient cosmology and symbolism. Which hardly anybody in modern times does, without a deliberate effort to go and learn about it.
I would highly, highly recommend this book for a start if you want to flip your perceptions upside down (right side up):
(Not saying I believe in it, but it certainly reads as a more accurate translation of the stories)
The best explanation of this is in a book called the language of creation by Mathieu pageau.
The Language of Creation: Cosmic Symbolism in Genesis https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07D738HD8/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_P5FAKP21NCB20248W2H0
Here's a sample of the book
"The Creator of Space and Time: Positive and Negative Who forms light and creates darkness?
Who makes peace and creates evil? I am the Lord who makes them all.
As discussed in chapters 22 and 23, the name of God (I Am what I Am) revealed on Mount Horeb is the seed-like principle of all Mosaic laws. More importantly, that tautology is the metaphysical principle of ‘space’ on the cosmic level. Applying this formula to the cosmic scale implies “I am in heaven what I am on earth,” which means outward fact (earth) perfectly expresses inward meaning (heaven). This is precisely the definition of ‘space’ in biblical cosmology. It is also the quality of all things straight, true, and correct. Conversely, the negation of God’s identity produces the following contradiction: “I am not what I am,” which is also the principle of ‘time’ and flooded land on the cosmic scale. This negative name means that outward fact (earth) and inward meaning (heaven) "
Highly recommend Robert Alters translation for all your Tanakh needs. He is an expert in ancient Hebrew, a professor at UC Berkley, and his commentary/context is fantastic.
To really understand the Tanakh you need the commentary to give you an idea of what was going on in the Era it was written.
Protestant churches helped form me in my youth, especially in instilling a love for Sacred Scripture. I'm not sure I have an argument against Protestant churches.
But when it came time to make a choice, the argument for the Catholic Church that was especially compelling was the sacraments - especially the Eucharist. The book The Lamb's Supper by Scott Hahn was particularly helpful to my understanding of the sacrament of the Eucharist and the celebration of the Mass.
For what it's worth, Jonathan Pageau's brother Matthieu wrote a book titled <em>The Language of Creation: Cosmic Symbolism in Genesis</em>. I bought a copy but have yet to read it. Fr Lawrence Farley also wrote a book titled <em>In the Beginning (Expanded Edition): A Fresh Look at the Early Chapters of Genesis</em>, although, a word of caution: it was originally published through Ancient Faith but was pulled from print. I think that he took some controversial positions so I can't vouch for it but if it is of interest, perhaps read it and take it with a grain of salt.
Tim Mackie speaks a lot about Robert Alter. He has written a lot about translation. Look at his books on amazon. He has translated the entire Hebrew Bible (with commentary). https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07BN5HWWX/
He focuses a lot on the literary style of the books and has an excellent argument on translations in his introduction to the book called "The Bible in English and the Heresy of Explanation" You can actually read all of this (or at least I was able to) by going to the link above and making sure the kindle version is selected. Then click on the Image of the book so you can "Look Inside" from there you will be able to scroll down to the introduction and read his arguments there.
In summary, he states that while we try so hard to explain what the text says in our language we tend to diminish some of the original poetic-ness and art form of the Bible. It is a fascinating read and has helped me think much clearer about translations. I urge anyone to read this. (again, free from the link above)
OH hey! I got a question. Someone recommended me "The Hebrew Bible" translation with commentary by Robert Alter. I don't remember if this was you or not, I've had so many comments the past few days. Is this something you would recommend buying? I got the free sample and love it so far but I've only read chapter 1 of Genesis. Here's a link:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07BN5HWWX/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?\_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1
I really love your analysis and I understand where you are coming from. That being said, I wish I had the time and the knowhow to explain how symbolic patterns are universal. The only other suggestion I have is to check out Matthieu Pageau's book The Language of Creation. If you don't feel up to purchasing it or reading the whole thing, the breif sample Amazon provides is a great way to understand universal Symbolism, as it gives a more detailed expression of how the cosmos works.
I haven't got round to a detailed read up on the topic yet:
For me, there are different ways to look at truth. We assume we know how the historical record should line up. But consider that scripture is not a science textbook. It's a lens through which to see the world, a map of action, not necessarily of territory, if you will. That being said, it's critical that any Christian believe in the historicity and flesh and bones reality of Jesus Christ's atonement and resurrection.
Let me ask a seemingly sideways question. Is the nuclear bomb true? It may sound like a ridiculous question. But if it brings extinction to God's children, maybe we can understand that launching global atomic warfare is not in the set of "true" actions. In that sense, the nuclear bomb is not true because it hypothetically puts a dead end to God's plan.
When I looked at the Gospel from the modern materialist lens, a lot of things didn't make sense. But after adjusting my perspective to view scripture and prophets as maps and guides to action, things make a lot more sense. I know that Joseph was a prophet and that the Book of Mormon is true. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is God's restored Church.
You might be familiar with a YouTuber named Jonathan Pageau. He's Eastern Orthodox, and a brilliant analyst of symbolism in culture and Christianity. (You may be interested in Orthodox Christianity...) His brother, Matthieu wrote a book called "The Language of Creation" about looking at the world and the Bible from a symbolic lens, not a materialist lens. It was a spiritual awakening for me. It helped me live my faith more fully. Give it a read and let me know what you think.
If by "believing commentary" you mean written by a professing Christian, look no further than Walton.
https://www.amazon.com.au/Genesis-Application-Commentary-John-Walton-ebook/dp/B004FPZ29A
You might not agree with his views on Genesis 1-11 though, but his scholarship is top notch.
> or joyful in the usual sense
I won't say that Jesus lacked joy at times, but I do say that the Last Supper wasn't joyful in the way that we mere humans normally experience it.
As an aside, what would be the ultimate form of worship for you? Because the Eucharist is what was outlined in Revelation. And it was the highest form of worship for the apostles and their disciples and the entire Church until probably the 1500's.
If you are looking for a commentary on Genesis, I'd recommend John Walton's commentary in the The NIV Application Commentary series. It does a great job of balancing good scholarship and practical application while still being accessible to a beginner.
If you wanted to save yourself some time, The Bible with Sources Revealed is color-coded.
Did you read the book yet, that I suggested earlier, by Pagels?
It was originally isolated to what was going on in and around Alexandria, where the two main protagonists resided.
Anyway, read the book, you can get the Kindle version from Amazon, as an instant download, for not too much money. http://www.amazon.com/Revelations-Visions-Prophecy-Politics-Revelation-ebook/dp/B006LU1O44 Or buy the paperback version for $6. (of course that takes longer to get)