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This is the best book I have read on the contradictions. Bart explains them in an easy to understand way. I HIGHLY recommend this book for getting around the contradictions.
Jesus, Interrupted: Revealing the Hidden Contradictions in the Bible (And Why We Don't Know About Them) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001TKD4XA/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_lH9UCbXXWZW6E
And if you want to get around the Bible a little better, Bart's books are amazing. I've read like three or four of them.
TL;DR it's by textual analysis and one of the best treatments of your particular inquiry is from Bart Erhman's Forged: Writing in the Name of God--Why the Bible's Authors Are Not Who We Think They Are.
You should be able to attain a copy through inter-library loan. If not, I've got a digital copy that I may consider sharing with you.
Catholicism's (imo dubious) teachings on hell were a major factor in my decision to leave it. Two books I always recommend (if you want a second opinion):
- That All Shall Be Saved - by David Bentley Hart. A book by a famous Eastern Orthodox Christian theologian (a Christian universalist) that explains why eternal inescapable hell doesn't make sense, even from a Christian perspective.
- Heaven and Hell: A History of the Afterlife - by Bart Ehrman. A book by a biblical scholar and historian that examines how our modern idea of hell developed over time and was heavily influenced by other cultures and changed by human source. In essence, it is a manmade doctrine.
Here’s a good discussion: Forged: Writing in the Name of God--Why the Bible's Authors Are Not Who We Think They Are https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004IWR3JW/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tai_iAP2FbG2JTHG7?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1
Here’s another good discussion about credibility of Scriptures: Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000SEGJF8/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tai_oGP2Fb1TJ0V3N?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1
I'm a former evangelical and Bible college graduate.
I agree with you that human scientific knowledge in the 21st century doesn't have all of the answers. For example, it seems unlikely that we would understand the origin of all matter an energy in the universe anytime soon. However, the religious explanation ("God did it!") is not satisfying at all, because it raises the next logical question of "Who made God?" And if God is allowed a special exception in not needing a creator, then why can't matter and energy have that special exception? "God" becomes an unnecessary middle man.
Second, I would ask, "How do we know anything about this god?" Human scriptures are very flawed; they all make claims that are easily disproven by scientific, historical, or academic means. And once we've disproven a claim of the Bible (for example), to shift to, "Well then, I guess it's just a metaphor!" is disingenuous in the extreme. It's presuming the Bible is the standard for truth, and must be proven right, and can never be wrong.
Really, you need to do a deeper dive on the Bible before placing your faith in it. Bart Ehrman is a popular New Testament scholar who's written many books deconstructing the Bible that present the mainstream view in academic circles; you might pick up one or two of his books. The more you understand the flaws of any holy book, the more you see the man-made nature of it.
One other point... Jesus didn't invent "the Golden Rule". He might be most famous in Western culture for saying it, but versions of it in other cultures pre-dated him by 2000 years. And with good reason; it's a simple, common sense philosophical position, it doesn't take a god to have thought it up.
Hello! Former practicing Catholic here. The notion of eternal inescapable hell was a major sticking point in my faith that caused me to want to dig deeper to get at the truth. I had numerous discussions with other Catholics about it. And the more questions I asked, the more I realized they didn't actually have answers, just one-liners they'd rehearsed. Their answers to follow-up questions were all just impromptu guesses, and every Catholic gave a different one. I studied for months and months. I tried cross-referencing doctrines and things the Church had declared in the past with the things it declared now. Things didn't add up.
Ultimately, the book that made things about hell clearer was one by an Eastern Orthodox theologian, David Bently Hart, called That All Shall Be Saved. It made it abundantly clear to me that eternal inescapable hell is incompatible with Christianity. How could an all-loving God ever be okay with a plan that causes his children to be eternally separated from him? How could anyone be happy in heaven knowing their close friends and family could be suffering in hell forever? How could God's plan be called "good," if it ultimately results in a dualism of eternal heaven and hell, where evil would coexist with good forever?
My main suggestion is to listen to debates between Catholics and non-Catholics, and from there, maybe you'll get an idea of what topics to read more. For a long time, I felt that things in Catholicism did not add up. But I couldn't put my finger on exactly why, because I had been trained to not read books by non-Catholics (plus C.S. Lewis, haha), so I had never given "the other side" a chance to speak. Once I did, it was eye-opening, and things made so much more sense.
If you're interested in universal reconciliation, I recommend the book That All Shall Be Saved by David Bentley Hart, it makes an extremely strong case in my view.
Not the best books on the subject, but a good overview, is Jesus: Mything in Action, Vol. I-III (The Complete Heretic's Guide to Western Religion series)
I can recommend two books that helped me get over the fear of hell:
- That All Shall Be Saved - by David Bentley Hart. A book by a famous Eastern Orthodox Christian (a Christian universalist) that does an excellent job of demonstrating why the idea of eternal hell is incompatible with mainstream Christianity, from a rational and philosophical perspective. So even if Christianity were true, hell couldn't possibly be. I have yet to see a comprehensive rebuttal to this book that actually engages with its arguments. I believe its arguments are rock-solid.
- Heaven and Hell: A History of the Afterlife - by Bart Ehrman. A book by a biblical scholar and historian that examines how our modern idea of hell developed over time and was heavily influenced by other cultures and changed by human source. In essence, it is a manmade doctrine.
I truly believe the doctrine of hell crumbles under its own weight. Yet I understand and empathize with how hard it is to break the indoctrination of it. Hopefully these can help you. I wish you the best.
Two books really helped me to get over the fear of hell. Copy-pasted response below:
- That All Shall Be Saved - by David Bentley Hart. A book by a famous Eastern Orthodox Christian (a Christian universalist) that does an excellent job of demonstrating why the idea of eternal hell is incompatible with mainstream Christianity, from a rational and philosophical perspective. So even if Christianity were true, hell couldn't possibly be. I have yet to see a comprehensive rebuttal to this book that actually engages with its arguments. I believe its arguments are rock-solid.
- Heaven and Hell: A History of the Afterlife - by Bart Ehrman. A book by a biblical scholar and historian that examines how our modern idea of hell developed over time and was heavily influenced by other cultures and changed by human source. In essence, it is a manmade doctrine.I truly believe the doctrine of hell crumbles under its own weight. Yet I understand and empathize with how hard it is to break the indoctrination of it. Hopefully these can help you. I wish you the best.
Tell her to show you where in the gospels Jesus said anything about homosexuals. I asked my mother this when she was quoting scripture and sent her on a wild goose chase for a month. 🤣 But you probably already covered that.
I highly recommend “Jesus, Interrupted” by New Testament scholar Bart D. Ehrman. The kindle is on sale for $1.99. I learned most of this when I was in the seminary a long long time ago.
Buy one for yourself and one for a friend!
https://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Interrupted-Revealing-Hidden-Contradictions-ebook/dp/B001TKD4XA/
Hell is a nightmarish doctrine. Here's two books that helped me overcome fear of it, maybe they will help you:
- That All Shall Be Saved - by David Bentley Hart. A book by a famous Eastern Orthodox Christian (a Christian universalist) that does an excellent job of demonstrating why the idea of eternal hell is incompatible with mainstream Christianity, from a rational and philosophical perspective. So even if Christianity were true, hell couldn't possibly be.
- Heaven and Hell: A History of the Afterlife - by Bart Ehrman. A book by a biblical scholar and historian that examines how our modern idea of hell developed over time and was heavily influenced by other cultures and changed by human source. In essence, it is a manmade doctrine.
Hopefully these can help you. I empathize with how hard it is to break the spell of hell. I wish you the best.
I'll post something that I've posted in the past on this issue:
>I got over my fear of eternal inescapable hell by realizing that it contradicts major tenets of traditional Christianity. In other words, even if Christianity were true, hell can't be. It is 100% a manmade idea.
>
>There's a book by David Bentley Hart, "That All Shall Be Saved," where he absolutely eviscerates the idea of eternal inescapable hell on logical grounds, even from a Christian perspective. I've read dozens of reviews of his book by Christians who preach eternal hell, and nearly all but ~two misrepresent his arguments or focus entirely on his tone. His arguments, in my opinion, are simply unassailable - they can't be answered. For this reason, the book is extremely popular in the r/ChristianUniversalism subreddit. If you want to see the idea of hell take a beating from a Christian perspective, I highly recommend it.
>
>I'm also currently reading a book by Bart Ehrman called "Heaven and Hell: A History of the Afterlife" which traces the ideas about hell through human history and shows that they developed organically over time, from pagan origins that started out very differently, rather than being some divine revelation.
>I still intensely fear Hell/purgatory
Regarding the fear of hell, I'll post something that I've posted in the past on this issue:
>I got over my fear of eternal inescapable hell by realizing that it contradicts major tenets of traditional Christianity. In other words, even if Christianity were true, hell can't be. It is 100% a manmade idea.
>
>There's a book by David Bentley Hart, "That All Shall Be Saved," where he absolutely eviscerates the idea of eternal inescapable hell on logical grounds, even from a Christian perspective. I've read dozens of reviews of his book by Christians who preach eternal hell, and nearly all but ~two misrepresent his arguments or focus entirely on his tone. His arguments, in my opinion, are simply unassailable - they can't be answered. For this reason, the book is extremely popular in the r/ChristianUniversalism subreddit. If you want to see the idea of hell take a beating from a Christian perspective, I highly recommend it.
I'm also currently reading a book by Bart Ehrman called "Heaven and Hell: A History of the Afterlife" which traces the ideas about hell through human history and shows that they developed organically over time, from pagan origins that started out very differently, rather than being some divine revelation.
What are you even talking about? I'm not posting some fringe view here, this is the overwhelming consensus on the subject. Bart Ehrman has written an entire book on the subject: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0053K28TS/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_hsch_vapi_tkin_p1_i11 .
Sun Tzu allegedly lived around 550 BC and yet he isn't mentioned until the Spring and Autumn Annals 150 years later, and no specific stories about him until the Shiji in 100 BC.
Jesus had Mark and Q and the Pauline letters all written about him within 40 years of his life, and Josephus and the other 3 gospels written by around 100 AD within 70 years.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004IWR3JW/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1
Forged: Writing in the Name of God--Why the Bible's Authors Are Not Who We Think They Are by Bart Ehrman
I got over my fear of hell by realizing that it contradicts major tenets of traditional Christianity. In other words, even if Christianity were true, hell can't be. It is 100% a manmade idea.
There's a book by David Bentley Hart, "That All Shall Be Saved," where he absolutely eviscerates the idea of eternal inescapable hell on logical grounds. I've read dozens of reviews of his book by Christians who preach eternal hell, and nearly all but ~two misrepresent his arguments or focus entirely on his tone. His arguments, in my opinion, are simply unassailable - they can't be answered. For this reason, the book is extremely popular in the r/ChristianUniversalism subreddit. If you want to see the idea of hell take a beating from a Christian perspective, I highly recommend it.
Try this, maybe?
>But then Paul happens.
Paul happened first. Even though the Bible puts the gospels first, Paul’s letters are actually earlier. And what’s so odd is that Paul barely mentions anything that Jesus said or did. In fact, in many cases, Paul is trying to convince people of something that Jesus states so clearly in the Gospels, but Paul doesn’t quote Jesus to prove his case.
There is a theory that the gospels were written not as “accounts of what happened,” but as a story-based version of Paul’s teachings. Paul doesn’t say things because Jesus did. Paul was interpreting the scriptures. But then later, in the Gospels, Jesus says things because Paul did. (This isn’t my own theory. Check out Jesus: Mything in Action.)
Yeah man, deconversion is really hard. It takes years to get through the whole process. Or did for me. A couple years for the doubts to really take hold, a couple years of digging and second guessing everything I was finding, and a couple more years to feel comfortable with my new identity. It was probably three years of myself calling myself agnostic before I was willing to say, even just in my own head to describe myself to myself as atheist.
> How can I be sure the Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit? [...] why are Christians so fervent on defending their Bible through "evidence"?
Check out some Bart Ehrman books. He's a former Christian and biblical scholar who breaks the Bible down in terms of historicity. I feel like it really helps you understand where the religion comes from and how the way Christians cherry pick small bits of it out of the full context all the time can really get you hooked on the feel good parts while ignoring how it doesn't add up as a whole. I can recommend this one in particular.
Glad your girlfriend has your back. I was going to mention one of the hardest parts of being atheist in the Midwest was dating. So, so many times it would be going fantastic for a few dates, and then religion comes up, and they instantly cut me off. "I could never date an atheist." And say the word with disgust behind it, it was unreal.
This may be beyond him, perhaps, but I would recommend going through something like "Evidence that Demands a Verdict", and using that to spark discussion and questions.
I agree that at eight, this particular book may be too advanced for him, but questions like "How did we get the Bible", and "How can we trust what the Bible says", etc. may be helpful starters.
If you want to get beyond deferring to experts and are interested in applying reason to the evidence, you could check out something like https://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Mything-Complete-Heretics-Religion-ebook/dp/B06XRQYGBV/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1521863689&sr=8-2&keywords=jesus+myth or the few other Jesus myth books.
This is a 2 volume book documenting thousands of miracles and drawing conclusions:
It's a bit difficult to read cover-to-cover due to the quality of the prose, but worth the effort, I think, even if you just skim it.
Oh boy the shit that's in the bible that doesn't make sense...
This book is a fantastic read. It's not at all political or anti-religious and doesn't go into the Christian message at all. It's just a guy who tries to live an entire year as close as possible to all the rules the Bible has. For example: you're not allowed to wear clothes with mixed fibers, you have to tell the literal and complete truth all the time, There's a description of some kind of hut you have to build for some festival that isn't even recognized anymore.
the book for you. a demonstration of how divorced from their original form are modern mainstream Christianity and Judaism. https://www.amazon.com/Year-Living-Biblically-Literally-Possible-ebook/dp/B000SEPAYO
Have you read Thunder, Perfect Mind? That was also discovered in the Nag Hammadi collection.
A New New Testament has it and a whole bunch of other early Christian devotional (though not Scriptural) works, though it's also available free online.
I also like The Gospel of Mary, though I didn't notice anything particular gnostic about it... although now that I look at it again, maybe I didn't read the first few verses, I guess.
Although the person that introduced them to me suggested that there was a growing strain of thought among historians that "gnosticism" as such didn't exist, and that it was just a word used to pillory one's opponents. I don't know how common that actually is. It was the first I had ever heard of it.
You might enjoy A New New Testament, which explores a whole lot of those non-canonical books that early Christians still found useful.
I really enjoyed the Gospel of Mary (Magdalene) and Thunder: Perfect Mind.
I suppose I should caution you not to get your hopes up. I don't know how often God heals people.
But Trent Horn has recommended Miracles by Craig Keener, apparently documenting numerous medical mysteries.
Bart Ehrman is a historian of the Bible. He has many videos on youtube and has written many books about various aspects of the way Christianity developed. The latest that I read was How Jesus Became God, which describes the evolution of the theology of the trinity.
If you are truly interested, get Bard Ehrman's book on the issue. He is an agnostic/atheist, but as a scholar/historian he thinks that Jesus of Nazareth the person did exist and he explains in detail why scholars believe that.
>For centuries few people in the Western world doubted that Jesus of Nazareth existed.
Actually Ehrman goes into this and according to him this is not true, that the concept that Jesus was not a real person is actually fairly new, dating to around the French Revolution and gaining traction when it was picked up by Lenin/taught in Soviet places. Before that even Christianity's biggest decriers were more focused on arguing that Jesus was a fraud rather than that he wasn't real.