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It’s men who think being nice to a woman is the way into her pants. Typically, they are only nice to people they want something from. That’s why a lot of people view them as manipulative as well. This is usually due to the “nice guy” not wanting to sexualize the women, often in an effort to try to set themselves apart. Problem is, they forget women are sexual too and don’t necessarily disqualify someone for being insinuative. No sexual tension(I’m using the phrase loosely) means no attraction. They don’t realize this and because they were nice and expected sex in return, they lash out.
I think that’s what I’ve gathered over the years of hearing the term.
Edit: https://www.amazon.com/No-More-Mr-Nice-Guy-ebook/dp/B004C438CW
A lot of the issues are psychological in nature. I wasn’t a “neck beard” but I was a “nice guy”. There are several issues with “nice guy” thinking/behavior:
- The incessant people pleasing or the inability to say no due to a fear and or lack of ability in handling conflict
- Lack of boundaries
- Covert contracts - the “if I’m nice to you, you’ll be nice to me” or “if I help you, then you’ll help me” thinking that goes on behind the scenes that is never fully verbalized
- Lack of understanding that one has needs, it’s ok to pursue said needs, and you are the only person who can fulfill those needs.
- Indirect pursuit of needs - If you need help, ask for help. You don’t help someone thinking they’ll help you in return when it was never promised. Etc.
This book changed my life:
I have an anxious attachment style too, and initially I thought it was a bad thing. What I like about this theory is how non-judgmental it all is. Your needs are your needs. I NEED more security and validation from partners, so I NEED to look for someone who is capable of giving me that. Secures can do that, while avoidants cannot.
If this interests you at all, I HIGHLY recommend the book “Attached”
I highly recommend you read the book "No more Mr. Nice Guy" by Dr. Robert Glover, he tackles extacly all of the things you mention.
- porn addiction
- masturbation
- not having needs fulfilled in childhood, which leads to drama in adulthoood
- learning how to communicate own needs
- learning how to set boundaries
- learn to love and show affection
It isn't a pick-up, or a seduction book, it is a self help book for men. Oh and if you are in America, there are No more Mr. Nice Guy support groups, which will highly increase your recovery success.
https://archive.org/stream/RobertGloverNoMoreMrNiceGuy/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy_djvu.txt
4.6/5 in Amazon with more than 4000 ratings, the book is that good.
https://www.amazon.com/-/es/Robert-Glover/dp/0762415339
I read it a while back, but I think I am going to read it again, since I realize I may have fallen in old habits deemed detrimental to my wellbeing.
It sounds like you and your wife both use acts of service to say 'I love you', which can translate into unintentionally parenting behavior (especially when you have (three!) babies in the house. You both should read The 5 Love Languages: The Secret to Love that Lasts to better understand the way you each communicate with each other.
You may also find it helpful if you consider that she's not mothering you out of pity or the belief that you are incapable of adulting. Like someone already said, it's incredibly difficult to turn off 'parent mode', especially if taking care is her love language. When you get frustrated, remember that it's the two of you against the problem, not you against her.
In my experience, it really makes a difference to be clear about how you are feeling in situations like this instead of focusing on the other person's actions. You might want to take a breath and gently say, "I'm frustrated right now because I want to pull my share of the weight, and I feel like you are taking on too much. I love you and appreciate how much you do. Please let me do this so we can divvy up the work more evenly." This shifts the focus to how you feel about the situation instead of placing blame/attacking the other person (not your intent but she may have felt that way), reminds her that you are a team, and that you love her which is always nice to hear.
Normal is a mostly useless term in this area, but it's not uncommon for many different reasons. Not everyone derives intimacy or feels bonded from sex. Your wife may be one of those people. Someone who doesn't get their intimacy from sex may not understand that sex is not just a form of recreation to the partner, so they have no idea that unenthusiastic participation is often worse than no sex at all. On the flip side, which I think you are experiencing now, the partner that gets intimacy from sex doesn't always understand how the other doesn't.
This isn't an insurmountable problem, but it does take commitment from both partners if it's going to be over come. The first step is actually defining what intimacy means to each of you, and how each of you feel connected and bonded. For you, as someone that gets intimacy from sex, you have to focus on the feelings, and not the acts. You also have to be open to, and accepting of what is intimate to her, even if it's something completely non sexual. In order to find a happy medium for each of you, each of you must understand the specific things that the other needs to feel those "warm fuzzies", and you must both commit to providing that, without strings. Once that understanding is there, if your wife is open to it, she can look for things about the specific sex acts that have meaning for her, and make them something that she can desire and seek out. On your part, you have to let go of any need you have to dictate what the focus of her desire is.
It's not that there is anything wrong with either of you, it's just a difference in what makes you feel connected. Reading The 5 Love Languages may help bridge that understanding gap.
And you are right about the back rubs. If you do that now, you'll be turning intimacy into currency, and making your sexual relationship a transaction, which you'll find is even worse than what you have now.
Read this book! It is not about becoming a dick to others but learning to stand up for yourself
​
No More Mr Nice Guy by Dr Robert Glover
https://www.amazon.com/No-More-Mr-Nice-Guy/dp/0762415339
​
"Nice Guy Syndrome" trying too hard to please others while neglecting one's own needs, thus causing unhappiness and resentfulness. It's no wonder that unfulfilled Nice Guys lash out in frustration at their loved ones, claims Dr. Glover. He explains how they can stop seeking approval and start getting what they want in life, by presenting the information and tools to help them ensure their needs are met, to express their emotions, to have a satisfying sex life, to embrace their masculinity and form meaningful relationships with other men, and to live up to their creative potential.
NAH - You're clearly not the asshole. However, rather than calling your husband the asshole, I think this may just be mismatched expectations and ways of expressing yourselves. Specifically, check out the concept of the 5 Love Languages (https://www.amazon.com/Love-Languages-Secret-that-Lasts/dp/080241270X). You don't need to buy the book, as there are articles out there that explain it well enough. The 5 are words of affirmation, physical touch, gifts, acts of service, and quality time. Considering the amount of effort you put into gifts/party for him, it might be because gifts/acts of service are important ways you show him love, so when they're not returned in that way, you're hurt. He might be showing you love in other ways that are more important to him.
I do think it's wrong for you to not stop. I don't think it's wrong for you to NOT want to stop. You made the commitment to marriage and that comes first. I was married in a poly/open/sharing relationship for 16 years and the only way it works is if you put the primary partner first.
Now if you have grown and change and now want to be/stay poly, you need to talk about it. But before you go into the conversation flip it 100%. He's met an awesome attractive younger girl, built like she walked out of dreams and he's loving every minute he's spending with her to the point of making excuses so he can.
How would you feel? more so, if he continued behind your back how would you feel? Using "You wanted this now I like it" is a bit of a cop out excuse. Don't throw the fact that he shared and encouraged a fantasy with you to shame him. You will start to build up the walls of communication between you if you do as well as resentment. This will turn into a quid pro quo situation of "well I let you do X so you HAVE to let me do Y " that is not healthy.
Empathy and understanding are really critical in this kinda relationship.
I would recommend reading The Ethical Slut ( https://smile.amazon.com/Ethical-Slut-Practical-Relationships-Adventures/dp/1587613379 )
I like the book No More Mr. Nice Guy by Robert Glover.
https://www.amazon.com/No-More-Mr-Nice-Guy/dp/0762415339
Be prepared to do some deep digging and to uncover some painful hangups you have about yourself, the world, and your childhood. The biggest one for me: Acting perfect is actually boring and repels people, because it's fake and everyone knows it. As long as you wear a "perfect person" mask, you will never be able to make real connections with anyone. Peoples' flaws are what make them interesting to others. To make real connections with people, you have to be vulnerable. The more open you make yourself to being hurt, the more opportunities to connect with others you will have. The second biggest hangup for me: Acting needy is something almost nobody likes, except maybe your mom. It is nobody's job to meet your needs, except you. It's not immoral or bad to go after what you want and to be honest about it. People generally respect that, a lot more than they respect acting nice.
For dating advice, check out Models by Mark Manson.
https://www.amazon.com/Models-Attract-Women-Through-Honesty/dp/1463750358
It's good advice, and it's not sleazy, which is great.
.
.
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Also. Women like hot guys. Just like YOU like hot women. After the baseline of feeling safe around someone is established, women want the guy who is aggressive, driven, handsome, strong, tall, competent, and dominant. They don't want a little boy. That doesn't make them whores, it makes them women. I don't imagine you look at how nice a girl acts as the primary indicator of attractiveness. You look at their looks, their interests, their personality, their sense of humor. Well, so do women.
I'd strongly suggest picking up a copy of Models for your buddy. The book tends to be honest, insightful, and offer lots of actionable advice for building a romantic connection.
There is a self help book called "Nice Guys" written by a shrink who was a reformed "Nice Guy" himself.
UGH I've said this in other threads about him not changing diapers but TANNER ACTS EXACTLY LIKE MY EX-HUSBAND.
Jade, girl, just please read this book and consider whether this is really what you want.
There's a great book that addresses this. It's called Attached: The new science of adult attachment and how it can help you find and keep love. It strongly urges people to date others who have a similar level of desire for and comfort with closeness, and goes into the biological drivers for why closeness feels so life-and-death important. Failing that, it gives practical tips for how to make your relationship less anxiety-provoking if your partner is avoiding closeness. Per the book, if your partner is prone to avoiding closeness, that tendency isn't likely to change. The communication tips these trolls are sharing here are gold. I'm trying my hand for the first time at a relationship with someone who also enjoys a lot of closeness and it is the bees knees. Near zero relationship anxiety for 4 months.
Your wife doesn't respect you, simple as that. The problem isn't her, its you. Do yourself a favor and read this book before you go see a divorce lawyer, trust me it WILL HELP.
You really should see a therapist brother. I think one on one in-person discussions with someone whose really well equipped to help you cope with your brokenness and anger would do a world of good.. with some consistent effort to talk it out on your part.
Some therapists suck.. but some don’t.. so I suggest looking until you find one that seems warm and down to earth (could be the first one you sit down with).
Whatever you choose to do, there’s definitely more emotions and personal history that needs to be addressed and come to peace with.
I wish you the absolute best of luck with everything.
Here’s a couple books that’ve helped me in the past (one about women specifically), maybe you read them and gain something, maybe you don’t. I’m sure not all of it’s applicable to your specific situation but I don’t really know what else to offer.
Models: Attract Women Through Honesty https://www.amazon.com/dp/1463750358/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_RD39NVXVJJ0NW9M768AC
The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck: A Counterintuitive Approach to Living a Good Life https://www.amazon.com/dp/0062457713/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_QDAMN3QZ5AHEB9Q0G820
Peace and love for whatever you choose to do.
No More Mr Nice Guy by Robert A Glover. Let me get this straight. You have a master's degree and you're making six figures.
Your girlfriend is an unemployed couch surfing parasitic leech with barely a high school education, who spends all her time on her hobby which she never earns any money or considers charging people. Then bitches at you constantly about how she thinks your job is a joke, and other passive-agressive abuse.
The issue is you tried to turn a hustler into a housewife.
She's hustling you. 100%. She doesn't respect you because she has no respect, and more importantly you don't respect yourself.
The issue is you're a doormat with no ability to set boundaries.
I’m not a guy, sorry, but Mark Manson’s site PostMasculine always struck me as the least douchey of these types of things. His book Models seems to be well-received, too.
To anyone wondering what's wrong with that message, I'd recommend reading Mark Manson's blog and his book, <em>Models: Attracting Women through Honesty</em>. Both elaborate extensively on strong boundries, being open and sincere about one's feelings (which Mark calls "vulnerability" — a misnomer, in my opinion) and the kinds of romantic relationships one could end up in, including abusive ones.
I was long time in a PUA community because I was interested in developing my social skills so I would be in better position in means of landing into a relationship. I was put off by the misogynistic and manipulative stuff but saw a lot of legit social psychology which was compatible with ethics behind other types of advice. There are a different levels there, "negging" and similar emotionally abusive tactics are considered to be a really low paradigm stuff and there are authors/PUAs like Mark Manson and David Deida. They promote a lot more wholesome PUA-culture that is based on developing yourself as a best version of yourself while renouncing emotional manipulation, misogyny and the whole egoic mindset common in PUA-circles.
Sort of! It works sometimes.
The idea of these "scripts" isn't that they have such a high success rate, it's that when you run a "script" over and over on different women, the rejection doesn't feel as personal as when you painstakingly came up with something unique for each woman.
When people reject this profile, it's not personal. He didn't write it. When he tries a script in each conversation and gets unmatched, it's not personal. It's not his script. They're not rejecting him, he just needs to find better material. In a rejection-rich environment like Tinder (and dating in general), this can be really liberating.
For profiles in particular, you can think of them kind of like the spam e-mail from the African prince. It's misspelled and obviously fake, and that's on purpose. The only people who respond are gullible, confused, etc.--the perfect target.
This profile is targeted at people who want some nice abs to play with and are kind of into assholes, and there really are plenty of women who fit in that category, at least sometimes. Again: the perfect target.
Edit: If you haven't read The Game by Neil Strauss, I highly recommend it. It's very entertaining and, I think, really captures the spirit of the movement.
The secure/secure attachment pairing is rare. Most of the attachment types can do okay when there is a secure type in the mix. The anxious-preoccupied and avoidant-dismissive and the avoidant-fearful and avoidant-dismissive pairings are fraught with conflict.
Attached: The New Science of Adult Attachment and How It Can Help You Find - and Keep - Love
might be interesting books to you
> I treat and spoil my kids so much. I show them so much love, I do the same to my wife. But I feel totally ignored in terms of any of my own needs.
​
Let me translate this for you:
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>I put everyones wants and needs above my own, teaching them that my wants and needs are less important then theirs
​
This is a dynamic you have actively built day after day and now you seemed surprised by it. You repeatedly CHOOSE to ignore your own wants and needs and then wonder why they aren't being met. Make different choices and things will look a lot different.
You can see/make friends, you can go do things you want to do, but you choose not to because you value your wife's happiness above your own. Not surprisingly her and the kids have adopted the same mindset, where their happiness carries more value then your own.
Pick up a hobby/interest and get out and do something a few hours each week.
Plan activities and invite the family, go even if they choose not to join.
There are a million ways you can start putting yourself first without being disrespectful. Will your wife like it all the time? No. But using that as your primary decision making factor has gotten you to where you are now.
https://www.amazon.com/No-More-Mr-Nice-Guy/dp/0762415339
read that book as a start
Curious if this has effected your sex life yet? Do you have the frequency and quality of sex you would like?
Grandpa here, and I've been down this path. Like the time I bought her that white sweater.... it got returned. I also think back to my dad telling me how individualized cars are, and how it was a big epiphany to him when he realized that it was important for mom to have the car she wanted and not so much what he thought she needed. He and I were both engineers so our brain always wants to go to "let me calculate the solution you need" and people don't work that way.
Let me try to pass along some older guy wisdom, so walk with me here:
Your 'best efforts' as you phrase it were to give her gifts that were what you wanted her to have; not so much what she wanted to have. As an artist, your creations are always about you and your concept of whatever it is. Even if it's meant for someone else, dragon colors and everything. It's still very much your expression. To you, this is a very meaningful thing from you and I think that you want them to be a surprise.
But human psychology doesn't work that way. We all have very individualized ways of how we want to feel loved. That's the main point from the very popular book, The 5 Love Languages: The Secret to Love that Lasts by Gary Chapman. An issue is that lots of people lavish onto their spouse the treatment that they want, not realizing that it's not at all what the spouse wants and their attempts to make them feel love don't work at all. Unfortunately, it's super common.
Now this is where it seems like takes some real jedi mind reading skills and it ain't always easy. You're trying to completely remove the thinking of what you want and slide into their mind and think of what they want. With practice you can get really good at it over a lifetime. To be honest, it's a lot better to forget with the surprises and flat out ask what they want, gather the details and literally write it down. No joke.
You/anyone who found this interesting should read "No More Mr. Nice Guy" (https://www.amazon.com/No-More-Mr-Nice-Guy-ebook/dp/B004C438CW/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1529112172&sr=8-1)
It will give you a very in-depth understanding of the phenomenon discussed here (and various other connected ones). The book also contains actionable suggestions.
Most people are too picky and self absorbed to be in a relationship. Relationships involve a lot of giving and a lot less taking than the rabidly individualist culture we have moved into. I doubt its a vancouver specific thing.
I recommend reading a book called "Attached: The New Science of Adult Attachment and How It Can Help You Find - and Keep - Love" https://www.amazon.com/Attached-Science-Adult-Attachment-YouFind/dp/1585429139
which explains pretty well why people are often not compatible with eachother and yet constantly seek out these same sorts of incompatible people. Break the cycle!
> and THEN when he starts touching me, it actually feels repulsive.
HUGE. Red. Flag.
These types of issues at only 3 months into the relationship, I'd move on to someone more compatible.
You're not LL, you're just LL for him.
You're not sexually attracted to him, and the Pursuer-Distancer pattern you have going on between you is killing off any remaining desire you have for him.
You're just not compatible sexually.
You both deserve to be with someone who is HL for you.
Edit: Attached: The New Science of Adult Attachment and How It Can Help YouFind - and Keep - Love can help you avoid an anxious-preoccupied partner in the future
It's based on a book by Dr. Gary Chapman
Basically everyone has different ways they express love and feel loved.
There is: Quality time- -Physical touch -Acts of service -Words of affirmation -Receiving gifts
Knowing yours and your partners can be very powerful. It allows you to better meet his needs and for you to better express your needs.
It's great for all relationships!
I'm still not sure if your problem was with her actual phrasing or the phrase she probably meant to type. Try reading up, maybe. The Ethical Slut. Opening Up. It's ok if it's not for you, no need to complain about it though.
There are dozens of reasons I lose interest or let the conversation fade. Sometimes it's something innocuous that leaves a bad taste. Sometimes I realize I'm not invested at all and don't care how the person is doing/feeling/answers random questions. Often though, I just get busy and have no time to bother anymore.
One thing that has turned me off to OLD lately isn't even OLD. It's this sub and the constant barrage of people saying they've had enough of OLD. It'll never end. Forever alone. Ugh. Any kind of dating is what you make of it. Of course it gets to be much at times and people need breaks. Before OLD breaks were just being single and making yourself happy. Or being single and downing a bottle of wine during TGIF and sobbing a bit at Urkel. Now it's some big ordeal that we all have to whine about on the internet. I think I've just been spending too much time in this sub. It been a little bit daily for a while. I much more liked my once a week or less fill. /rant
Go commiserate with friends for a bit. Take the break. There's a whole ocean of people out there. But don't pick any of them, they're probably all dead.
What consequences has she had to go through? Sometimes cheaters need to feel hard consequences in order to understand that they are walking on borrowed time if they don't shape up.
I hope the both of you are in therapy.
Has any one suggested reading the 5 Love languages book by Gary Chapman? It might help both of you understand each others love languages.