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It’s men who think being nice to a woman is the way into her pants. Typically, they are only nice to people they want something from. That’s why a lot of people view them as manipulative as well. This is usually due to the “nice guy” not wanting to sexualize the women, often in an effort to try to set themselves apart. Problem is, they forget women are sexual too and don’t necessarily disqualify someone for being insinuative. No sexual tension(I’m using the phrase loosely) means no attraction. They don’t realize this and because they were nice and expected sex in return, they lash out.
I think that’s what I’ve gathered over the years of hearing the term.
Edit: https://www.amazon.com/No-More-Mr-Nice-Guy-ebook/dp/B004C438CW
A lot of the issues are psychological in nature. I wasn’t a “neck beard” but I was a “nice guy”. There are several issues with “nice guy” thinking/behavior:
- The incessant people pleasing or the inability to say no due to a fear and or lack of ability in handling conflict
- Lack of boundaries
- Covert contracts - the “if I’m nice to you, you’ll be nice to me” or “if I help you, then you’ll help me” thinking that goes on behind the scenes that is never fully verbalized
- Lack of understanding that one has needs, it’s ok to pursue said needs, and you are the only person who can fulfill those needs.
- Indirect pursuit of needs - If you need help, ask for help. You don’t help someone thinking they’ll help you in return when it was never promised. Etc.
This book changed my life:
I have ADHD, as well, and got diagnosed going through a doctoral program. It is scary to think there are people out there that don't believe this is real... It's so real and impacts our lives everyday.
There are two great books on adhd and relationships that help you deal with that type of situation. I'll try and find them if you're interested in the titles.
Also, I had a wife (now ex wife) and my current Gf Who were/are so supportive of me and my adhd. Legit makes my day knowing they care enough to read those books and learn all about my quirks. I hope your SO will do the same for you
EDIT: Links to each book
https://www.amazon.com/ADHD-Effect-Marriage-Understand-Relationship/dp/1886941971
Hope they help!
I highly recommend you read the book "No more Mr. Nice Guy" by Dr. Robert Glover, he tackles extacly all of the things you mention.
- porn addiction
- masturbation
- not having needs fulfilled in childhood, which leads to drama in adulthoood
- learning how to communicate own needs
- learning how to set boundaries
- learn to love and show affection
It isn't a pick-up, or a seduction book, it is a self help book for men. Oh and if you are in America, there are No more Mr. Nice Guy support groups, which will highly increase your recovery success.
https://archive.org/stream/RobertGloverNoMoreMrNiceGuy/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy_djvu.txt
4.6/5 in Amazon with more than 4000 ratings, the book is that good.
https://www.amazon.com/-/es/Robert-Glover/dp/0762415339
I read it a while back, but I think I am going to read it again, since I realize I may have fallen in old habits deemed detrimental to my wellbeing.
It sounds like you and your wife both use acts of service to say 'I love you', which can translate into unintentionally parenting behavior (especially when you have (three!) babies in the house. You both should read The 5 Love Languages: The Secret to Love that Lasts to better understand the way you each communicate with each other.
You may also find it helpful if you consider that she's not mothering you out of pity or the belief that you are incapable of adulting. Like someone already said, it's incredibly difficult to turn off 'parent mode', especially if taking care is her love language. When you get frustrated, remember that it's the two of you against the problem, not you against her.
In my experience, it really makes a difference to be clear about how you are feeling in situations like this instead of focusing on the other person's actions. You might want to take a breath and gently say, "I'm frustrated right now because I want to pull my share of the weight, and I feel like you are taking on too much. I love you and appreciate how much you do. Please let me do this so we can divvy up the work more evenly." This shifts the focus to how you feel about the situation instead of placing blame/attacking the other person (not your intent but she may have felt that way), reminds her that you are a team, and that you love her which is always nice to hear.
Normal is a mostly useless term in this area, but it's not uncommon for many different reasons. Not everyone derives intimacy or feels bonded from sex. Your wife may be one of those people. Someone who doesn't get their intimacy from sex may not understand that sex is not just a form of recreation to the partner, so they have no idea that unenthusiastic participation is often worse than no sex at all. On the flip side, which I think you are experiencing now, the partner that gets intimacy from sex doesn't always understand how the other doesn't.
This isn't an insurmountable problem, but it does take commitment from both partners if it's going to be over come. The first step is actually defining what intimacy means to each of you, and how each of you feel connected and bonded. For you, as someone that gets intimacy from sex, you have to focus on the feelings, and not the acts. You also have to be open to, and accepting of what is intimate to her, even if it's something completely non sexual. In order to find a happy medium for each of you, each of you must understand the specific things that the other needs to feel those "warm fuzzies", and you must both commit to providing that, without strings. Once that understanding is there, if your wife is open to it, she can look for things about the specific sex acts that have meaning for her, and make them something that she can desire and seek out. On your part, you have to let go of any need you have to dictate what the focus of her desire is.
It's not that there is anything wrong with either of you, it's just a difference in what makes you feel connected. Reading The 5 Love Languages may help bridge that understanding gap.
And you are right about the back rubs. If you do that now, you'll be turning intimacy into currency, and making your sexual relationship a transaction, which you'll find is even worse than what you have now.
This is emotionally cheating. And he’s gaslighting you by downplaying and disregarding your observations and feelings. None of this is healthy.
There’s a couple of things that I would consider reading in order to gain some focus and clarity:
2) The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work: A Practical Guide from the Country's Foremost Relationship Expert https://www.amazon.com/dp/0553447718/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glc_fabc_xh0-FbKBRP400
I would explain to your husband that after reflecting over time that you’ve come to be hurt and confused by his treatment of you vs. other women. I would point out the double standard and how it would make him feel in reverse and I would let him know that his behavior is breeding resentment.
He has a choice to change and he might do it, but it will probably take couples counseling. The only way for counseling to work is if both people are willing participants.
If he doesn’t change then at least you’ll be well read and understand exactly what’s going on and exactly where your boundaries are and that will make life easier for you going forward if your marriage ends.
Read this book! It is not about becoming a dick to others but learning to stand up for yourself
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No More Mr Nice Guy by Dr Robert Glover
https://www.amazon.com/No-More-Mr-Nice-Guy/dp/0762415339
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"Nice Guy Syndrome" trying too hard to please others while neglecting one's own needs, thus causing unhappiness and resentfulness. It's no wonder that unfulfilled Nice Guys lash out in frustration at their loved ones, claims Dr. Glover. He explains how they can stop seeking approval and start getting what they want in life, by presenting the information and tools to help them ensure their needs are met, to express their emotions, to have a satisfying sex life, to embrace their masculinity and form meaningful relationships with other men, and to live up to their creative potential.
NAH - You're clearly not the asshole. However, rather than calling your husband the asshole, I think this may just be mismatched expectations and ways of expressing yourselves. Specifically, check out the concept of the 5 Love Languages (https://www.amazon.com/Love-Languages-Secret-that-Lasts/dp/080241270X). You don't need to buy the book, as there are articles out there that explain it well enough. The 5 are words of affirmation, physical touch, gifts, acts of service, and quality time. Considering the amount of effort you put into gifts/party for him, it might be because gifts/acts of service are important ways you show him love, so when they're not returned in that way, you're hurt. He might be showing you love in other ways that are more important to him.
I like the book No More Mr. Nice Guy by Robert Glover.
https://www.amazon.com/No-More-Mr-Nice-Guy/dp/0762415339
Be prepared to do some deep digging and to uncover some painful hangups you have about yourself, the world, and your childhood. The biggest one for me: Acting perfect is actually boring and repels people, because it's fake and everyone knows it. As long as you wear a "perfect person" mask, you will never be able to make real connections with anyone. Peoples' flaws are what make them interesting to others. To make real connections with people, you have to be vulnerable. The more open you make yourself to being hurt, the more opportunities to connect with others you will have. The second biggest hangup for me: Acting needy is something almost nobody likes, except maybe your mom. It is nobody's job to meet your needs, except you. It's not immoral or bad to go after what you want and to be honest about it. People generally respect that, a lot more than they respect acting nice.
For dating advice, check out Models by Mark Manson.
https://www.amazon.com/Models-Attract-Women-Through-Honesty/dp/1463750358
It's good advice, and it's not sleazy, which is great.
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Also. Women like hot guys. Just like YOU like hot women. After the baseline of feeling safe around someone is established, women want the guy who is aggressive, driven, handsome, strong, tall, competent, and dominant. They don't want a little boy. That doesn't make them whores, it makes them women. I don't imagine you look at how nice a girl acts as the primary indicator of attractiveness. You look at their looks, their interests, their personality, their sense of humor. Well, so do women.
There is a self help book called "Nice Guys" written by a shrink who was a reformed "Nice Guy" himself.
UGH I've said this in other threads about him not changing diapers but TANNER ACTS EXACTLY LIKE MY EX-HUSBAND.
Jade, girl, just please read this book and consider whether this is really what you want.
Your wife doesn't respect you, simple as that. The problem isn't her, its you. Do yourself a favor and read this book before you go see a divorce lawyer, trust me it WILL HELP.
No More Mr Nice Guy by Robert A Glover. Let me get this straight. You have a master's degree and you're making six figures.
Your girlfriend is an unemployed couch surfing parasitic leech with barely a high school education, who spends all her time on her hobby which she never earns any money or considers charging people. Then bitches at you constantly about how she thinks your job is a joke, and other passive-agressive abuse.
The issue is you tried to turn a hustler into a housewife.
She's hustling you. 100%. She doesn't respect you because she has no respect, and more importantly you don't respect yourself.
The issue is you're a doormat with no ability to set boundaries.
Sort of! It works sometimes.
The idea of these "scripts" isn't that they have such a high success rate, it's that when you run a "script" over and over on different women, the rejection doesn't feel as personal as when you painstakingly came up with something unique for each woman.
When people reject this profile, it's not personal. He didn't write it. When he tries a script in each conversation and gets unmatched, it's not personal. It's not his script. They're not rejecting him, he just needs to find better material. In a rejection-rich environment like Tinder (and dating in general), this can be really liberating.
For profiles in particular, you can think of them kind of like the spam e-mail from the African prince. It's misspelled and obviously fake, and that's on purpose. The only people who respond are gullible, confused, etc.--the perfect target.
This profile is targeted at people who want some nice abs to play with and are kind of into assholes, and there really are plenty of women who fit in that category, at least sometimes. Again: the perfect target.
Edit: If you haven't read The Game by Neil Strauss, I highly recommend it. It's very entertaining and, I think, really captures the spirit of the movement.
> I treat and spoil my kids so much. I show them so much love, I do the same to my wife. But I feel totally ignored in terms of any of my own needs.
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Let me translate this for you:
​
>I put everyones wants and needs above my own, teaching them that my wants and needs are less important then theirs
​
This is a dynamic you have actively built day after day and now you seemed surprised by it. You repeatedly CHOOSE to ignore your own wants and needs and then wonder why they aren't being met. Make different choices and things will look a lot different.
You can see/make friends, you can go do things you want to do, but you choose not to because you value your wife's happiness above your own. Not surprisingly her and the kids have adopted the same mindset, where their happiness carries more value then your own.
Pick up a hobby/interest and get out and do something a few hours each week.
Plan activities and invite the family, go even if they choose not to join.
There are a million ways you can start putting yourself first without being disrespectful. Will your wife like it all the time? No. But using that as your primary decision making factor has gotten you to where you are now.
https://www.amazon.com/No-More-Mr-Nice-Guy/dp/0762415339
read that book as a start
Curious if this has effected your sex life yet? Do you have the frequency and quality of sex you would like?
Grandpa here, and I've been down this path. Like the time I bought her that white sweater.... it got returned. I also think back to my dad telling me how individualized cars are, and how it was a big epiphany to him when he realized that it was important for mom to have the car she wanted and not so much what he thought she needed. He and I were both engineers so our brain always wants to go to "let me calculate the solution you need" and people don't work that way.
Let me try to pass along some older guy wisdom, so walk with me here:
Your 'best efforts' as you phrase it were to give her gifts that were what you wanted her to have; not so much what she wanted to have. As an artist, your creations are always about you and your concept of whatever it is. Even if it's meant for someone else, dragon colors and everything. It's still very much your expression. To you, this is a very meaningful thing from you and I think that you want them to be a surprise.
But human psychology doesn't work that way. We all have very individualized ways of how we want to feel loved. That's the main point from the very popular book, The 5 Love Languages: The Secret to Love that Lasts by Gary Chapman. An issue is that lots of people lavish onto their spouse the treatment that they want, not realizing that it's not at all what the spouse wants and their attempts to make them feel love don't work at all. Unfortunately, it's super common.
Now this is where it seems like takes some real jedi mind reading skills and it ain't always easy. You're trying to completely remove the thinking of what you want and slide into their mind and think of what they want. With practice you can get really good at it over a lifetime. To be honest, it's a lot better to forget with the surprises and flat out ask what they want, gather the details and literally write it down. No joke.
You/anyone who found this interesting should read "No More Mr. Nice Guy" (https://www.amazon.com/No-More-Mr-Nice-Guy-ebook/dp/B004C438CW/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1529112172&sr=8-1)
It will give you a very in-depth understanding of the phenomenon discussed here (and various other connected ones). The book also contains actionable suggestions.
It's based on a book by Dr. Gary Chapman
Basically everyone has different ways they express love and feel loved.
There is: Quality time- -Physical touch -Acts of service -Words of affirmation -Receiving gifts
Knowing yours and your partners can be very powerful. It allows you to better meet his needs and for you to better express your needs.
It's great for all relationships!
What consequences has she had to go through? Sometimes cheaters need to feel hard consequences in order to understand that they are walking on borrowed time if they don't shape up.
I hope the both of you are in therapy.
Has any one suggested reading the 5 Love languages book by Gary Chapman? It might help both of you understand each others love languages.
> he doesn't ever offer to cook
> He doesn't buy me flowers, light candles or organise dates for us
You sound like an acts of service kind of woman. Go read Gary Chapman’s The Five Love Languages, figure out what your husband is, then start loving on him in his languages. He should naturally reciprocate. Try it for like one month and see if it works.
FYI: People typically have a primary and a secondary language. Use both of his (and get to know yours).
I know I sound like a broken record but here are my thoughts. I have been married for 25 years. The first 23 sucked because I tried to tell her what she wanted to hear and not the truth. Once again I am going to recommend the book "No More Mr Nice Guy" by Dr Robert Glover. All Men are taught at an early age to please women, Mother, Then all female teachers and so on it has been this way since the early 60's when male role models disappeared and the rise of the divorced single mom.
The first 23 years of my marriage we spent trying to keep the peace and if I had to lie to do it that was fine. The problem was no one respects a wimp that lies about everything and kisses everyone's ass. After reading the book (its also on audio) I started being honest no matter who got pissed off. My wife could now rely on me giving her the truth. Yes that outfit makes you look fat, Yes you are being a bitch. When this honesty comes out, women will be upset and pissed off but later they will respect you for telling them. For the women who walk away.... Let them....
By being honest with my wife, and I have told her how close I was to walking out on her, How I feel when shes a bitch.... we have had some major come to Jesus meetings. Today I get laid more that I ever did by her in my 40's and 30's. Their is more peace in my home because when something is bugging me its addressed and worked out.
If I was young again I would either go MGTOW or I would be very very careful who I chose to fuck with and start a relationship with. Plus for you young guys its so much fun to just speak your mind, Call bullshit when you hear it and let women know that you could careless if they are mad at you.
This book is not about hating Women.... I would say its more a guide for going from a blue pill simp to a 100% male red pill guy
He's gas-lighting you...bad. And you likely do have a form of PTSD!
-Year one is like being in ICU.
-Year 2 is like being in the hospital
-Year 3 is painful PT.
You're still in ICU! You should feel this way.
Tip: He needs to read "How to Help your Spouse Heal from Your Affair." It lays out a 15 point recovery plan. He needs to commit to those 15 points or your relationship might not ever heal.
I just realized you're not married. Oh friend, treat this as a godsend. Break it off. At a minimum downgrade him to bf. But the engagement is off!
I've seen no evidence that is true. It very well might be, but I would want to see the facts like from Shirley P Glass. Author.
On this sub, it seems 50/50.
Btw, I lean to trying to save marriages...if at all possible. Ask her to read this book right away (because of expiring lease). It's designed for the cheater. It explains the work she will need to commit to. She can even buy the audio version today and you both listen to it tonight.
Do you want it to work? If so, may I suggest going one more month without signing a lease. Having you both have to decide in a week is a lot of pressure.
I'd like to help. PM me if you want. I'm a guy in my 50s.
I love Esther Perel! Her book Mating in Captivity focuses on the same theme. My husband and I listened to the whole book on tape together this summer.
We're also obsessed with her podcast! It's called Where Should We Begin and is just her and a couple in a marriage/couple's counseling session, one couple per episode. It's brilliant and we also devoured them all - my husband likes to vocally root for the couples expressing their feelings like he would root for a sports team. There is one in Season 1 about a couple struggling with fertility issues, called I Can't Give You a Child. Highly recommend all of them!
I saw this elsewhere on this sub, and burned through the audiobook in less than a week. It is about an 8 hour listen, and you can skip the first chapter, which is just the author talking about what has gone on from one book revision to the next.
I was absolutely floored by how much the thing resonates with me. The chapters wind up offset. The audiobook chapter one is the rehash I mentioned, chapter 2 is a preface, and chapter 3 is chapter 1. Audiobook chapter 2 and the first five minutes of chapter 3 just had me nailed to the wall, not to mention the relationship to my wife. If you have amazon prime, the audiobook is free if you log in with your amazon credentials:
No More Mr Nice Guy: A Proven Plan for Getting What You Want in Love, Sex, and Life https://www.amazon.com/dp/0762415339/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_ySueEbZFJPF5K
Be warned - it isn’t comfortable to listen to. A whole lot of introspection comes up from it.
EDIT - another warning, it can be a bit sexist in places, but being wrongheaded in one place doesn’t invalidate his points as a whole. Try to be open-minded going in.
No More Mr Nice Guy: A Proven Plan for Getting What You Want in Love, Sex, and Life https://www.amazon.com/dp/0762415339/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_7H06A02S2HNDQ9WK74N9
This book changed my life. A great guide for people who struggle with pleasing others, especially men. In my late twenties I woke up one day realizing I hated my life, and that I was because I would give up what I wanted to make other people happy.
Long story short I learned:
- I have needs, only I know what they are, only I can fulfill them
- I have to do what is in my best interest regardless of how other people react
- There’s nothing wrong or selfish about taking care of your needs or making them a priority
- There’s nothing wrong with saying no - and 90%+ of the time most people don’t care/it’s not that big of a deal to them if I say no.
Absolutely life changing.
It’s available as a Kindle download for $7.99 on Amazon, and you don’t actually need a Kindle as you can read it online in the Kindle Cloud Reader or you can install the free Kindle app.
How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair: A Compact Manual for the Unfaithful https://www.amazon.com/dp/145055332X/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_2z.GBbTP2JAKC
Change your mind.
You speak about the love languages, but do you truly understand all that there is about them? The entire point is that it's not about you, it's about how your partner wants to feel. Seriously go buy the book and read it cover to cover.
The way you describe it is kind of like she hates drinking milk and loves iced tea. But you like milk a lot so you cram milk down her throat because that's all you want in life. And you're pissed off that she has the gall to want iced tea. In fact, iced tea doesn't even enter your mind and if it's brought up, it MAKES YOU MAD BECAUSE I GAVE YOU PLENTY OF MILK. You don't even buy into the concept of iced tea at all. You'd never serve a glass for the rest of your life because you don't value the stuff. You gave milk so why the hell do you keep bringing up that damned iced tea? Enough is enough of that stupid tea!
So let's reframe this. Do you value your wife? Yes or no. Do you value her opinion? Yes or no. Does she deserve to hear that she's wanted, that she's done something well, that you're proud of her and that you love her? Yes or no. This is the foundation that needs to be there.
If all of these are yes, then it's time to make them a priority. "I didn't think about it" or "it didn't occur to me" are cop-outs. Is her happiness and fulfillment a priority to me or not? My take is that doing these things should be fun and make you feel good. I want life to be fun so I bring it--even as I had to be taught long ago, same as you.
I saw an app yesterday that might help. It's iOS only right now, but they're making the Android version. It sends reminders to do and be nice to your partner. It's called emi daily relationship reminder.
You both speak the English, but you don't speak the same language. You'll start to see the things that happen every day, and the first while is hard because there is so much miscommunication and learning where the compromises need to be made. Marriage is different than dating if it's the level of commitment of "till death do you part" - you'll eventually be more yourself than ever, and them as well - and you'll have to figure out if that's good enough or what you want to change.
Two books I recommend to anyone:
Marriage is work - this one has some practical tools for keeping it close and healthy, and signs to watch for.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0553447718/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_glt_fabc_MFXN1B4J3JX1JC6AWDRK
Book on children's communication that applies to adults just as well, we're just shitty at recognizing it.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1451663889/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_glt_fabc_4VR60S3CZW17599HX6JC