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It’s men who think being nice to a woman is the way into her pants. Typically, they are only nice to people they want something from. That’s why a lot of people view them as manipulative as well. This is usually due to the “nice guy” not wanting to sexualize the women, often in an effort to try to set themselves apart. Problem is, they forget women are sexual too and don’t necessarily disqualify someone for being insinuative. No sexual tension(I’m using the phrase loosely) means no attraction. They don’t realize this and because they were nice and expected sex in return, they lash out.
I think that’s what I’ve gathered over the years of hearing the term.
Edit: https://www.amazon.com/No-More-Mr-Nice-Guy-ebook/dp/B004C438CW
> MIL and FIL share an email address, a cell phone, and even go to the bathroom together.
HURK. That ~~sorta~~ defines enmeshment.
DH needs to read and re-read When I Say No I Feel Guilty by Manuel J. Smith and No More Mr. Nice Guy by Robert A. Glover.
You and LO are more important than DH's mother. Sadly, he doesn't behave like it, even if he pays lip service.
His mother has done a number on him with Fear, Obligation and Guilt. She is a master gaslighter / manipulator. I'll guess that she's been doing it her entire adult life (and likely back into childhood); she's extremely competent - and that's sad.
Will it's not DH's fault, it's his adult responsibility - to himself, you and LO - to overcome the programming she's instilled in him. Reading, pondering and re-reading these two books, doing the exercises they contain and letting them illuminate his circumstances could be helpful.
There is a self help book called "Nice Guys" written by a shrink who was a reformed "Nice Guy" himself.
>... she seems to view DH as a replacement husband she can rely on emotionally and financially, as opposed to her being a mother DH can rely on...
It's not 'seems to.' She does.
He IS NOT HER HUSBAND. He IS yours, and the father of y'all's children.
But he's bought into the lie. Unknowingly. Therapy / counseling is strongly recommended. For him, not you. Joint therapy may be beneficial, but he's the one with the busted normal meter. Sounds like yours has passed an extended stress test with flying colors.
MIL is a somewhat textbook example of dysfunctionality rather than a unicorn. IOW, she's pretty typical of a boundary-stomping Jocasta who has treated her offspring as her spouse. She's almost certainly incapable of sustaining a relationship with a male her own age. Your husband doesn't suffer from the same afflicition, only the programmed misperception that he's responsible for his mother and her happiness. He is not.
If your husband is currently unwilling to consider counseling, he needs to read and re-read these two books: When I Say No I Feel Guilty by Manuel J. Smith and No More Mr. Nice Guy by Robert A. Glover.
I wish both of you the very best and hope that he's able to overcome the parentally-installed buttons of Fear, Obligation and Guilt and become the strong and worthy man he, you and your children deserve.
His mother has attempted to make him her emotional spouse and to usurp his adult life. She's unworthy of his time and attention.
The thing about the "friend zone" is that the women who put you in it were probably never attracted to you from the start, and it's not like it would change because you used some magic technique or pick up line to win them over. I know that might be hard to hear, but the truth is, if women are attracted to a man it doesn't usually change just because they become friends.
Maybe some women can put people in this category in their minds no matter how attracted they are, but personally as a woman, I don't have a sharp distinction between friendship and romance in my head. I don't arbitrarily put people in one category or another when I get to know them. Either I'm attracted or I'm not, basically. I can be attracted to an unavailable platonic friend for years and it's not easy for me to just "get over it".
Having said that, if you really are attracted to a woman, it's probably better to ask them on a date (and make it clear it's a romantic date, not a friendly hangout) sooner rather than later - to avoid the awkward situation where you're close friends and then don't want to ruin the friendship. It also comes across as more honest if you make your romantic intentions clear from the start, otherwise some people might feel you were befriending them with ulterior motives.
I've also heard good things about this book so it might be worth checking out: Models: Attract Women Through Honesty by Mark Manson
Have you heard of Negative Visualization?
Pause now and then to consider the state of your life. Think of the people you love and the things you value. If you love someone, consider how you’d fare without them. If you have a great ride, think how you’d do on a bicycle or bus pass. Think of how bored you’d be if you could no longer do whatever hobbies you enjoy. Ponder the changes that a sudden loss of health would bring. This can help prepare you for an unexpected loss or change, although nothing will ever really prevent grief. More importantly, it should help you appreciate your circumstances and the people around you more, and make you content with the life you already live.
You seem dismissive of meditation and books, which seems odd for a question like this, but the first I’d recommend would be A Guide to the Good Life.
I wanted to recommend this one... written by a philosophy professor, it's very accessible and made a big difference for me. It's sort of an intro to stoicism.
https://www.amazon.com/Guide-Good-Life-Ancient-Stoic-ebook/dp/B0040JHNQG/ref=sr_1_3?
Secondly--- I own a business with a seasonal slow period. For 3-4 months each year I more or less don't have to work. I have been fighting that strange guilt sensation for so long. I know exactly what you mean.
It's hard to do anything different from what EVERYBODY else is doing. But it doesn't mean we are wrong to do it. Stoicism has helped me accept that it's perfectly natural that I would feel strange given that my lifestyle is so different from pretty much everyone else's.
OP, pls have DH read mellow-drama's post.
He's made a first step and needs to continue. Two books he might find useful: When I Say No I Feel Guilty by Manuel J. Smith and No More Mr. Nice Guy by Robert A. Glover.
For everyone's sake I pray he does.
She trained him to be Her Obedient Son^^tm
But he's not ten years old anymore. He's an adult with a mate, a life partner. Who his carrying HIS CHILD. His mother has cast Fear, Obligation and Doubt (FOG) about him.
You're the lighthouse. He has ALREADY chosen. You gave yourself to him - physically and emotionally. You have entrusted him with being your Partner and the father of your children. You have given him the most precious gift one human can give another: YOURSELF. That doesn't obligate him - it provides him challenge and opportunity. To be a fucking adult.
His mother hasn't and can't - it's profoundly not her role, nor his to divide his loyalty between mom and wife. Yeah, he wants to avoid his mom going off - she's a Pain in the Ass - but an adult doesn't reward that by giving into it. They impose consequences for ~~making demands~~ attempting to interfere in his his adult life.
He's got to man the fuck up or forever pay the price. He doesn't want to be in the middle - STOP BEING THERE. The ice floes are drifting apart - it's a normal part of life! He needs to live on the one he stood up in public and vowed to share the rest of his life on.
Cause HIS MOTHER is trying to make him choose her. He's already chosen you.
He ~~might~~ will benefit from reading and re-reading When I Say No I Feel Guilty by Manuel J. Smith and No More Mr. Nice Guy by Robert A. Glover.
You're welcome to share this post - the perspective on an older man, with adult offspring - with him if you want. Or not. Regardless, know in your heart that it's Reality.
There's a theory of psychology that due to the millenia of generations of survival of the fittest, our brains are hard wired to worry. It's only been for the last few generations that a good portion of the human population could live without having to be on guard constantly against death by wild animals, starvation from crop failures/not finding food to hunt, small wounds becoming infected and killing you, etc.
Those of us alive today are the descendants of the ones who DID worry enough about the dangers in the world to survive through them long enough to have kids and keep them alive too. The ones less inclined to worry would have survived less often. So you could say many of us were bred through natural selection to be peak worriers.
Today our world no longer requires this level of worry, but we're stuck with brains which are built to be anxiously aware. Our brains will create those feelings even when our lives do not require any worry at all.
I read a great book on Stoicism a few years ago I really enjoyed. I think it definitely helps keep these anxious feelings in perspective. Step 1 for me is to accept that those feelings are entirely normal and not something I need to fight agains. u/cagarsalvagemente you might enjoy this book!
https://www.amazon.com/Guide-Good-Life-Ancient-Stoic-ebook/dp/B0040JHNQG
Deliberate practice.
Set yourself small, achievable goals to extend your current ability incrementally and do that regularly.
I had the same experience! One book I found from that sub that was super useful was “Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents”. I definitely recommend it if you want to feel some compassionate validation and ways to move forward.
Apparently DH didn't say "No you're not. We won't be visiting. You won't be coming to our house for a month. You won't be coming to our house at all unless you show us that you get that WE'RE the parents; you're optional. Right now you're attempting to Take Over; it's not happening."
The opportunity isn't lost. He can call her up and say "I didn't make myself clear recently so I'll do so now. [insert above paragraph]" When she reacts negatively he can say "You prove my point." [Click]
If he needs help shining his spine, these are a good place to start: When I Say No I Feel Guilty by Manuel J. Smith and No More Mr. Nice Guy by Robert A. Glover.
This is the 101 in stoicism. If you want to be happy, you have to learn what you can control and what not. This book is a goog starter: A Guide to the Good Life: The Ancient Art of Stoic Joy (English Edition) https://www.amazon.de/dp/B0040JHNQG/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_taa_EouqDbTJH6VM7
You/anyone who found this interesting should read "No More Mr. Nice Guy" (https://www.amazon.com/No-More-Mr-Nice-Guy-ebook/dp/B004C438CW/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1529112172&sr=8-1)
It will give you a very in-depth understanding of the phenomenon discussed here (and various other connected ones). The book also contains actionable suggestions.
MIL means good only on the surface.
Her behavior is that of a very anxious person - which you haven't caused. Misses social cues, talking over, being told to stop (more than once is a pattern), doesn't listen, wanting others: DH, you, anybody to assuage her anxiety and loneliness. She seems fairly dysfunctional.
That you're proud is GOOD. Anything but a superficial relationship is practically impossible. Setting yourself on fire to ~~keep her warm~~ try to make her feel better isn't required by any social convention.
You can't fill a bucket which has the bottom corroded out. Attempts will leave you with little emotional energy for yourself and other people in your life.
You have to be firm, not mean. She'll usurp your time and energy only if you let her. Other posters have made good suggestions. I'd try a modified broken record technique: "[FirstName], you're not listening - that doesn't work for me." Regardless of what else she says repeat "That doesn't work for me."
Avoid JADE-ing (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain). You've experienced what happens when you give her a reason: She digs in. ;~/
She may get upset. Remember, you have no control over the emotions of others - only how you respond to them and - to a degree - your own feelings. Even if growing up you were taught to or made to feel responsible for others' emotions, you're not.
MIL needs therapy with a qualified professional. Suggesting that is unlikely to cause her to go; she would likely be pissed off. You'll probably have to accept a superficial relationship.
You might find value in When I Say No I Feel Guilty by Manuel J. Smith. I'm sorry for your MIL's discomfort and attempts to share the burden with you.
As other posters have said, it's a process.
I hope he doesn't (didn't?) roll over & show his belly. He needs to feel the truth in his gut - he's an adult male. He's not a ten-year-old (pre-pubescent) boy. He just graduated from medical school & even with residency & specialization to go, he's DOCTOR Adult.
I recommend two books: When I Say No I Feel Guilty by Manuel J. Smith and No More Mr. Nice Guy by Robert A. Glover.
FDH (Dr. FDH) should do the exercises in the books & follow through. The third, fourth or fifth time he reads them, these two books will still provide ' A-Ha!' moments.
His mother's infantilization is fucking AWFUL for him as a human being. It can be overcome; he can grow into the full adult he deserves to be and that a decent parent would want him to be.
FMIL will find it traumatic. Her entire being is wrapped up in being his mommy even though he stopped needing that long ago. She may have a psychotic break. She certainly will shit bricks and attempt to keep him from breaking away from her. A normal relationship with her is highly unlikely - whatever's going on with her, she wouldn't have done this to him unless there's something very wrong with her.
Be prepared - she's not gonna give up her domination willingly and YOU, of course, are the Instigator (in her eyes). His growing into his full capabilities as an adult human has nothing to do with it. /s
Encourage him toward healthy maleness. A strong adult is gentle, because he or she knows their strength and is sure of it and themselves. Bravado is un-necessary.
I'm so sorry that you're going through this :( it really breaks my heart to hear, but I'm glad you have a partner that loves and supports you.
The comment about attachment theory reminded me of a book about adults of emotionally immature parents, which sounds like what they are from what you have described. I'm currently reading it myself and it's been a great eye-opener and later on it talks about how to heal from this. amazon link for the book
Hopefully this can help you come to terms that it's not your fault and you deserved to be love. It might be a long and hard journey to heal from the trauma but I know you will be able to achieve this and I'm rooting for you to find your happiness and the love you deserve!!! Sending you all the positive energies!
Hey OP, I'd like to gently point you to the book "Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents: How to Heal from Distant, Rejecting, or Self-Involved Parents". I just finished it, and it helped me to understand and resolve my feelings around a very similar childhood experience.
Frankly, pretty much the exact situation you're describing in your post is actually discussed in the book (one of the patients of the author went through that with their parent also).
These are links to AmazonUS. Pls search on your Amazon. DH is a textbook case for both. When I Say No I Feel Guilty by Manuel J. Smith and No More Mr. Nice Guy by Robert A. Glover.
Yep. OP might want to check out this book https://www.amazon.com/Adult-Children-Emotionally-Immature-Parents-ebook/dp/B00TZE87S4
You should start browsing r/seduction. It’s a sub fully dedicated to “picking up” women and basically getting dates and finding a girlfriend.
I’ll summarize what the sub will most likely tell you if you chose to ask the same question over there.
1) Read Models by Mark Manson. It’s sort of a non-bs approach to getting a girlfriend. It basically gets your mind straight and tells you how life really is in hard truth. You can probably find a pdf floating around the internet, if not just get it from amazon.
2) Work on yourself. How’s your mind, bad? Go to a psychiatrist. How’s your body, bad? Go to the gym. How’s your clothes, bad? Go the mall and get modern adult clothes. Work on yourself until you are confident.
3) Approach. Everyone on r/seduction will tell you it’s a numbers game. Approach as many girls as you can and eventually one will say yes and go on a date with you. The hard part is approaching. It’s nerve racking and everyone gets scared of doing it. That’s basically what the sub is for. It’s for you to have a support group to help our approaches improve and hopefully get better enough to land you a date. Go to college campuses, the mall, really anywhere and just start asking girls for their phone number.
Your weight, your athleticism, your age, that doesn’t matter man, you know why? How many men approach women? 5-10% ?
You are going to be in that 5-10%. You are going to be in that small group of confident outgoing men where looks don’t matter, you’ll realize after reading the book and browsing the sub that confidence matters.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004C438CW/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1
I've had a similar tendency, this book has really been instrumental in helping me get past this. I'd suggest giving it a read.
Good luck!
I would recommend that you look at the book Peak: Secrets From The New Science Of Expertise. I’m reading it now and it is so interesting. It basically explains how people become experts using specific principles defined by the author as “deliberate practice.” Even though it is a researched-based book, it is written in an easy to read style; I checked it out of my local library. If you are looking to develop a skill or talent later in life, the steps outlined in this book can get you where you want to be much quicker than if you were just trying to figure it out on your own. Many people realize their dream during middle age and beyond!
You might be able to move out and find a job to pay the rent, but the fact is it's going to be much, much easier if you finish a college degree (or some sort of education) first.
Could you transfer to a school upstate or in the midwest? Rent, food, and other expenses would be much cheaper. Most college towns don't require a car. And you could always take a bus back to the city. You'd be able to live away from your parents and your student loan money would go much farther than in the city.
You should also put psychological healing on your radar. If you've been living with abusive parents, it's going to take time and work to retrain your brain. You may get more targeted responses in a sub like /r/raisedbynarcissists but here are some resources to check out:
- Call 1-888-NYC-WELL or chat online. You can talk to a counselor for free. They'll help you talk through your options for getting into a better situation.
- Kati Morton is a therapist with a good YouTube channel. (Example: Dealing with Toxic Parents | Kati Morton)
- Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents is a highly-recommended book
I found the book Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents really helpful in understanding what my parents’ problems were. It has also helped me understand that in addition to the disadvantage of their religious beliefs, they were each not taught to be more emotionally in tune with their children. It doesn’t make the hurt less and it doesn’t excuse the neglect, but it helps me work towards being a better parent to my kids than mine were to me.
I know it feels like you're a terrible daughter, but in reality, you're not terrible for wanting to be treated with kindness, love, and respect. Your mother is an adult who is responsible for her feelings and shouldn't be taking it out on you. You're not responsible for any of her trauma either. You can't fix her, because she's responsible for her healing journey. It's unfair to expect yourself to do all the work to repair the relationship if she's not putting any effort into it. You deserve more than that. A book that I found helpful is Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents: How to Heal from Distant, Rejecting, or Self-Involved Parents.
I didn't see it brought up yet in the sea of posts, but I wanted to bring up "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Robert Glover. It's a self-help book based on being an authentic you instead of a "nice guy". It is definitely worth checking out and really helped me reevaluate myself.
Non-affiliate Amazon Kindle page: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004C438CW/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1
Edit: removed incorrect web link
Neediness comes from "insecurity", a psychology technical term from attachment theory. I'm confident this book will help you. It's a classic in the field, easy to get at a library or on Amazon.
Attached: The New Science of Adult Attachment and How It Can Help You Find—and Keep—Love
by Levine and Heller
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This is totally within my wheelhouse. For all intents and purposes, there is no such thing as "talent." It's better to think of talent as a subjective opinion someone gives (I.e. "you're so talented!").
Nearly everything is a skill because humans learn by modeling or trial and error. Skills are built via mental representations. Artistic endeavors are skills because anyone can do them and improve immensely.
I encourage you to read Peak: Secrets from the New Science of Expertise by K.Anders Ericsson.
The moral of the story is that no one is innately born with any skill, hence there is really no such thing as talent in that way. Just subjective opinions.