Warren is by far a better choice because she is THE policy expert among all the candidates - she taught law and has done distinguished and deep research in bankruptcy law. She has actually written and lobbied for more economic policy than anybody else. At a time when the Unites States needs deep economic reform, electing her as the president is a no brainer.
EDIT: Adding a couple of her publications for reference.
Illness and Injury as Contributors for Bankruptcy
The Two Income Trap : Why Middleclass Parents are Going Broke
There's a book by Harvard Law School bankruptcy expert (now ~~Congresswoman~~ Sentator) Elizabeth Warren called The Two-Income Trap, which looks at how income and expenses changed from 1970-2000.
I bring it up because Warren covers the differences in expenses between 1970 and 2000. It's been a while since I've read the book, but what I remember the thesis being was that in 1970 people spent a greater percentage of their income on what Warren classified as "non-essential items" but a smaller percentage on "essential items." Again from memory, essential items are specifically housing, health care and education, and non-essential items are everything else.
In short, she contends that today we spend a much smaller percentage of our income on things like TVs, appliances, vacations, etc., but we spend a much greater percentage of our income on housing, health care and education. She also looks at how more households are two-income households today, but how that actually creates potential for disaster should there be a prolonged illness or job loss. Because both spouses have to work to afford the essentials, if one of them experiences a job loss then the family is pinched much harder than an equivalent family in 1970, since they could cut back on non-essential items and more likely had a single income to replace (meaning the non-working spouse could find full- or part-time employment to help bridge the main breadwinner's income disruption).
Anyway, that's what I remember from it. It's definitely worth a read if you find this type of thing interesting.
She literally wrote the book on the changing structure of the American economy and how it was affecting the American working class, spotting the problems long before most people were switched onto it. She predicted the financial crisis when nobody else did.
I'm so sorry! She is having an affair. Affairs can be emotional, as you said. This is so hurtful!
Years ago I heard about a study where they found that people can stay married if they don't love each other, but not if they don't trust each other.
Unfortunately, she has broken your trust and crossed marital boundaries. Her behaviors are not conducive to staying married, and have escalated. To remain married, the affair needs to end, at minimum.
Her personal day alone in the city sets off red flags. I had a family member that crossed from an emotional affair into a physical affair just like this... having their own day alone... as well as not allowing access to their messages, phone, computer, knowing where they were, etc.
Whatever happens, I suggest getting counseling... at least for you, and if you do stay together try to get marriage counseling with a non-lds lds therapist.
A really good book to read together, or separately, is called "His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-Proof Marriage", along with its companion book, "Love Busters: Protect Your Marriage by Replacing Love-Busting Patterns with Love-Building Habits." Both books are by Williard F. Harley, Jr and can be found on Amazon.
I highly suggest reading the two books, even if things don't work out in your marriage so you'll have the knowledge for future relationships. Hopefully they could help you both now.
Good luck! Stand your ground. Let us know how it goes.
Wishing you peace and healing though all this!
>In Selfish Reasons to Have More Kids, contrarian economist Bryan Caplan argues that we've needlessly turned parenting into an unpleasant chore, and don't know the real plusses and minuses of having kids. Parents today spend more time investing in their kids than ever, but twin and adoption research shows that upbringing is much less important than we imagine, especially in the long-run. Kids aren't like clay that parents mold for life; they're more like flexible plastic that pops back to its original shape once you relax your grip. These revelations are wonderful news for anyone with kids. Being a great parent is less work and more fun than you thinkso instead of struggling to change your children, you can safely relax and enjoy your journey together. Raise your children in the way that feels right for you; they'll still probably turn out just fine. Indeed, as Caplan strikingly argues, modern parents should have more kids. Parents who endure needless toil and sacrifice are overcharging themselves for every child. Once you escape the drudgery and worry that other parents take for granted, bringing another child into the world becomes a much better deal. You might want to stock up
This is an amazing book and it has really helped me a ton. I love words of affirmation too, it's Admiration in the book. I told my guy to skip to that chapter but he's actually enjoying the whole thing.
Each chapter has a great example, and what you're writing matches the examples perfectly.
I think spouses do that a lot, "now that we're married, I don't have to do that chit-chat thing with you, I already know everything about you!" and woosh, pleasant conversation that women enjoy for bonding goes out the window.
"I don't have to pretend I like fishing with you!" etc etc.
"All that romance stuff" that made you fall in love with him goes out the window, and it's obvious that you're falling out of love with him
Here's his website and a TLDR but yeah, your hubby is insisting on only having his needs for sexual fulfilment met and that's some selfish bullshit that will end badly.
Back in the 1950s, certainly, some women who wanted to work in professional jobs were prevented from doing so based on a combination of social pressure and employment discrimination.
Today, as Elizabeth Warren extensively documented 15 years ago, many families struggle to make ends meet with two incomes, when their parents and grandparents made do with one. The result is that many women who would prefer to stay home with the kids instead are forced to enter the workplace due to economic pressure.
It's not at all clear to me that the feminist revolution has led to any decrease in the net amount of coercion exercised on women. It has simply changed who is getting coerced and what they are getting coerced into doing. It's entirely possible, depending on what percentage of women would prefer to be stay-at-home moms, that the net amount of coercion has actually increased.
I recommend a great place for you to start is read His Needs/Her Needs by Willard Harley and do the Emotional Needs questionnaire.
I strongly suspect the argument that "having children increases your carbon footprint" is just totally specious. Bringing one less person into the world doesn't decrease your carbon footprint, it decreases the number of people. The carbon footprint in question isn't your carbon footprint, it's your child's carbon footprint.
Similar reasoning concludes that one way to decrease your carbon footprint is to just murder more people. In fact, if you murder more than one very young child, you've just offset yourself plus some number of your friends!
Of course there are other reasons to not murder people, and it would be silly to not take those into account! Likewise, there are many good reasons to have children, and so it would be silly to not take those into account also. If you want to think very seriously about those, I recommend Bryan Caplan's book on the subject.
Okay, so first, what you're looking for isn't monogamous, it's polyamorous or polyfidelitous. The people at /r/polyamory could be a good resource for you as well.
Before talking to her, or maybe as you are, I'd recommend reading The Ethical Slut. There's a lot of very important information about how to communicate and navigate the weird waters of non-monogamy. It's also a quick read.
Good luck, play safe.
My partner and I were only really okay with opening things up once we talked about the difference between "loving" and "committing".
I am committed to her, and I love her. I may love anyone we bring in, but I will never commit to them.
On top of that, we both read a few books and articles regarding what's unfulfilling about pure monogamy.
I'm not saying it wasn't difficult, I'm not saying there wasn't a lot of shouting and tears, but I am saying we both got through it and are much better for it.
Also, like you... she is bisexual and we first opened things up with a threesome to make it an "us" thing instead of a "you" or "me" thing.
There's an absolutely fantastic book that addresses jealousy and insecurity: "Polysecure: Attachment, Trauma and Consensual Nonmonogamy" https://www.amazon.com/dp/1944934987/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_glt_fabc_VA90V9V4GQX2B5QQQN81
Personally, jealousy is there to remind us that something is wrong! The problem with poly is that it will greatly amplify one's own jealousy issues greatly. I found the above book extremely helpful!
Liz Warren wrote the book on it. It's less about feminism and more about how suburban families are paying for a good education through expensive housing, which requires both parents to work to afford a home in a good school district AND ALSO cover childcare costs because both parents are working.
"Astonishingly, sending mothers to work has made families more vulnerable to financial disaster than ever before. Today's two-income family earns 75% more money than its single-income counterpart of a generation ago, but has 25% less discretionary income to cover living costs. This is "the rare financial book that sidesteps accusations of individual wastefulness to focus on institutional changes," raved the Boston Globe. Warren and Tyagi reveal how the ferocious bidding war for housing and education has silently engulfed America's suburbs, driving up the cost of keeping families in the middle class. The authors show why the usual remedies-child-support enforcement, subsidized daycare, and higher salaries for women-won't solve the problem. But as the Wall Street Journal observed, "The book is brimming with proposed solutions to the nail-biting anxiety that the middle class finds itself in: subsidized day care, school vouchers, new bank regulation, among other measures."
Alright here's my experience, apologies if it's a lot of nonsense
We share a 2 bedroom apartment, which in my home city our rent is pretty good compared to current market value. We are on month-to-month so we could have moved out if we wanted, when we broke up we decided to keep the place, in part because of rent sharing, and second because it's a really good place.
It was pretty easy going until the pandemic lock downs started, forcing us both to stay home. But we had established boundaries, and often share cooking meals, help each other with chores, and we still spend time together watching movies or playing games (video or board).
One of the challenges will be whenever one of us actually leaves. We bought a lot of things together; a nice TV, the couch, the bed she uses, some of the game consoles and so on. Eventually one will have to buy what they want off the other.
If you don't have a second bedroom you're going to have some difficulties. One of you may have to take the living room or other common space as their bedroom and set up some kind of privacy barriers.
In a way, you're in a form of non-monogamous relationship now and it might be a good idea for each of you to do some reading on the subject. This book is pretty good though it probably covers a lot more then needed in your context.
Here's what has helped us maintain our friendship:
Hope this helps, feel free to DM if you'd like some more details on anything.
Elizabeth Warren literally wrote the book explaining this exact thing
She explains that families cannot get by without childcare because two wages are required to raise a family. So being thrust into a global pandemic - the middle class is imploding because they can't afford NOT to send their kids back to school.
We're not even at the worst of it. Not even close. We're probably still 30-45 days out from the real shit hitting the fan.
Happy Saturday, Veni! I'm so happy to hear you're getting out and enjoying time with friends and are on a good path. You deserve all the good things! :)
I think it's great that you're coming up with questions regarding the why of your desire to open the relationship. Something I'm curious about -- have you ever wanted an open relationship with a partner prior to your husband? I think for some, monogamy is simply too limiting and too narrow.
I have spoken to a number of men and women about this, but shockingly, more women seem to find the idea of open relationships more appealing than men. Perhaps I'll make a post about this, because you're far from alone in these thoughts and desires and it may help you.
I really think you should check out the book, <em>The Ethical Slut</em>. It may help you understand your why more and feel less alone in your thoughts and desires. I would also be happy to suggest other books for you as well, if you're interested :)
This resource from The Jealousy Workbook might help you figure out your relationship orientation.
It sounds like you’ve done some of the work to untangle monogamous ways of thinking, but you still might be holding on to some ideas about love you were taught by a monogamous society. The Jealousy Workbook is a good resource to help identifying those beliefs and giving you ways to change them. My girlfriend has used a copy of the book to lead discussions about jealousy in our local poly support group.
Trying to bring others into your relationship is the biggest fuck-up you could make. You will either get frustrated trying or someone or everyone will end up hurt, and there’s a big risk you’ll damage your current relationship, too: https://www.unicorns-r-us.com/
But it’s good that you’re asking about “safe” polyamory structures. The answer is that there aren’t any. Once you’re in the land of polyamory, structural protection gets really weak and you need to rely on strength and quality of your relationship. Read this: https://www.amazon.com/Polysecure-Attachment-Trauma-Consensual-Nonmonogamy/dp/1944934987
There's a book called Polysecure I've started reading that's really good and should be added to this great list https://www.amazon.com/dp/1944934987/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_glt_fabc_V3DWY6TB9FYT3DKEC7N7 as well as this article which really is a great resource when starting out. https://medium.com/@PolyamorySchool/the-most-skipped-step-when-opening-a-relationship-f1f67abbbd49
Here is a product called Fair Play that basically lays out how to organize tasks for you with cue cards and pictures.
fair play kit links to Amazon Canada
I was reading a book at the behest of my wife. It's His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-Proof Marriage(Amazon link). It's not as hokey as it sounds.
So, the thing is, the author outlines a number of things* that members of a relationship need for emotional fulfillment. An number of his list seem to be things you lack from him: Financial support, conversation, recreational companionship, and physical attractiveness to name a few.
Some people don't rank sex as highly as others. It's normal. I'm certainly not going to call you out over not wanting to knock boots with someone who leaves you so unfulfilled in the relationship. You find a different man who fills your emotional needs and you're probably going to be more inclined to tear his buttons off with your teeth.
I'm sorry you find yourself at this point. If he were to go through and start doing the things that you need, would you be able to salvage the marriage? Or is it too late for you?
*Here's the author's complete list:
Different people rank these things differently, of course. If you're interested in the cliff notes version of his book, you can get that on the authors website here.
Try His Needs Her Needs too.
Certainly! Please check out the book “The Ethical Slut” by Dossie Easton and Janet Hardy
Your local library should also have a copy. Specifically, in chapter 12, “Child rearing” Dossie references that raising children in a group setting is significantly more beneficial.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12685340/ This published work specifically references that only 3-5% of mammals engage in “monogamy” “Most male mammals do not look after their offspring; humans are an exception in this respect. Like most mammals, humans are not strictly monogamic. A tendency to social monogamy has evolved, however, and is subject to strong reinforcement by cultural factors, particularly religion. As a result, in a number of cultures monogamy is the predominant mating system; however, most cultures (about 85%) are polygamic.”
Recommend you get a copy of The Ethical Slut and give that a thorough going over. They have some really good content about jealousy, where it comes from, and how to deal with it. You're right that you can't want freedom and justify jealousy at the same time.
As for me, I choose to spend some time thinking about my jealousy when I feel it. Why am I feeling this way? What are the underlying feelings that are making me vulnerable? What can I do to make this work better?
Super common thing. Sex drive almost always slows down somewhat when you get more comfortable and start to move past the honeymoon phase.
If you feel like it’s becoming an issue that needs more attention, this guy wrote the Bible that couples counselors use:
If you cannot see the benefit of having rich kids who love you while you’re old, you’re fucking retarded. That’s how society functioned before everyone turned into a bitch for the government. There is nothing inherently different about the way savings and interests works in the third world than they do in the first world. Before the welfare state, people stuck together in larger families and had a more cohesive family structure. Here in America, people either had large families or they join fraternal societies like the Freemasons or some fraternity before the government had charity.
Yea you’re over assessing the opportunity cost. The fact is children aren’t the delicate retarded amoeba that people think they are and children largely raise themselves, as long as parents can keep them out of harms way. This is not my opinion, theres research that supports this. Parents who realize that children aren’t cattle and learn how to use economies of scale are winning at life and also at the genetic lottery.
>stop paying welfare
Stopping paying welfare doesn’t make rich people breed faster, but it stops the overbreeding of leeches. Two separate issues. You need both for a society in equilibrium.
So it's a book on Polyamorous relationships, but it deals a lot with communication and boundaries, it's called More than 2. Here an Amazon link
I am going to counter a lot of arguments here, but my opinion was shaped by Elizabeth Warren's The Two Income Trap.
This means that students from poor performing districts have the same chance of attending a good public school as any other student.
Private schools may still be allowed, but with 0% public funding (i.e. no Vouchers).
I disagree, too. Previous generations never worried about this much doting on their kids, and they still produced geniuses and stars. It's a recent phenomenon.
The evidence suggests you've done most of your work before the baby is even born, by passing on your genes. Most of the influence on your children will come from their friends, teachers, and the rest of their environment that isn't their parents. Here's a nice book on the subject.
Read Bryan Caplan's "Selfish Reasons to Have More Kids". I have 2 and would never go back to having just 1.
You might get the wrong impression if you lurk in parenting forums, because it draws the unhappy parents out of the shadows looking for advice. 99.99% of parents  who waffle about having "one more" kid are happy with their choice.
I was in an open relationship, and this book helped my gf go through a ton of jealousy issues:
Highly recommend it :)
Read this book with your wife (Passionate Marriage: Keeping Love and Intimacy Alive in Committed Relationships https://www.amazon.com/dp/0393334279/ref=cm_sw_r_awd_e3KDvb082C619) I think it does a good job of explaining things from both sides. If anything it will be good to read on your own.
I have a friend who has an issue like this. He doesn't have a huge sex drive, but due to an abusive relationship in high school, she feels the only way to show she loves him is sex. So if they don't have sex she doesn't feel affirmed.
I recently bought this book (just got married a month ago) and it's super helpful. It's great even for non married folk, and even for single folk. I've applied the principles taught in it even in my friendships. The author is a clinical psychologist for 20+ years IIRC...
The latter half of the title isn't what it sounds like, but it really is. The whole book is about how to learn to meet someone's emotional needs and how to express your own. In doing so, it makes them more committed to you.
A great concept he discusses is a Love Bank. Everything you do something that your other half likes, you make a deposit into their Love Bank. When you argue, you make a withdrawal. The more full the Love Bank, the more likely you are to enjoy sex, conversation, etc.
None of this is happening in a vacuum, and actions have reactions. You're behind the curve. There's already a book about it. http://www.amazon.com/Men-Strike-Boycotting-Marriage-Fatherhood/dp/1594037620
Both of you seem like emotionally immature, drama queens. Venting on Reddit isn't going to solve any of your problems. And I'm sure if we saw his side of the story it would be another gigantic fuckwad of text laying out petty gripes and hurt feelings.
TBH, both of you seem to be dealing with attachment issues in your relationship with each other and are acting out in destructive ways. Read 'Polysecure'.
If you believe these studies, you quickly end up with the idea that literally nothing matters when it comes to parenting.
This book documents this pretty thoroughly. For one example, Korean orphans from the Korean war was adopted into families in Minnesota randomly. When researchers checked up on how those kids did decades later, they found zero correlation between various metrics and the schools that the kids attended. Rich public, poor public, private, catholic, all the same outcomes.
The list of studies that the book names is long and exhaustive, all driving to the same conclusion: for biological children, your kids will resemble you; what you do largely doesn't matter. For adopted children, you will almost certainly have a kid with somewhat random stats. What you do still won't matter.
If you are a parent that cares about academics, your kids will care about academics. Because, well, your kids will resemble you.
Hey. I read your response that couples therapy is expensive. Have you checked out The Fair Play Deck by Eve Rodsky
Also, check out this Instagram account. It validated a lot of what you desire in a partnership. Ignore the idiots telling you not to expect your partner to do more and that you wanted to stay at home and so should do ALL the work (??!!). That Darn Chat
This is so close to what my wife and I went through that I’m wondering if we have the same wife.
Did you guys ever try ‘fair play’? It’s a deck of cards you guys go through and discuss each task and who will be responsible for it. We used them with a counselor and I think it was great for both of us to see how the tasks are distributed.
Yeah I think it can be easy to overlook things that you’re leaving to someone else to manage.
As for the cards, here’s a link to them ;) https://www.amazon.com/Fair-Play-Deck-Conversation-Prioritizing/dp/059323166X
They're based on a book about women are seen as the managers, but in a job, managers manage, and others work. But at home, we're expected to manage AND work and it's overwhelming. Super good read
Is a link ok? The people who made it do a much better job of explaining the concept and the process than I ever could lol.
There’s also a book you can get separately. We only got the cards, but now that I’m looking at it again I may download the audiobook too!
ALL relationships are transactional. This is going to get me downvoted bc it sounds uglier than it is, but it's true. In relationships we do things to make each other feel good which prompts us to continue to do things. If you're with a partner who you don't feel like is giving as much as you're giving (and it changes, you can't give 100% all of the time and your partner picks up slack when you need them to and vice versa) you're not going to want to be with them. A relationship is a partnership meaning you need to give and take equally, which makes it transactional by default.
I'm assuming you're a man bc of this comment, and likely haven't been the one to carry all of the mental labor for a household, or do the majority of the housework while your partner thinks they are helping out equally but they're just unaware of just how much you do.
There's a game called fair play that lists out all of the mental, emotional, physical jobs in a household. This game was created because women tend to take on all of the mental and emotional work and half of the physical work while men typically are left with only half of the physical work. If you feel like you're doing your part but your gf seems stressed and upset, try it out, and learn how much she is really doing.
It's not that unusual of a kink and there are ways to do this without compromising anyone's ethics. You might check out one of the core books on ethical non-monogamy (ENM) called "The Ethical Slut" which forms a sort of guidebook for polyamorous relationships.
It's an important book just generally for modern sexual culture.
This book is decent.. I won't say it totally resonated but there were a few interesting points.
So this is what you do to realign the story and get everything back on track.
The big bad evil guy is an ethical slut. So that would probably imply lawful evil.
They are perfectly willing to sleep with the entire party. It won’t affect the evil plans but they won’t take advantage of the opportunity either.
They will also inform all of their many other partners. Possibly the party will receive gifts later from these partners. I’ve heard that is sometimes traditional.
You know it kind of goes something like this.
Hello Lady Marlane, Noted necromancer and traitor to the crown.. Is this business or pleasure?
Commence the fucking. Cuddling and after care is employed.Then everybody leaves safely, Possibly with gift baskets of fruits and cheeses.
If it was business commence the initiative.
There is an alternative. You can take everybody aside and having a IRL conversation about how this is bothering you.
If it is not bothering you or anyone else at the table carry-on.
Thanks so much for this post!
Have you thought about the Fair Play deck? Some men need a visual aid to see the imbalance of domestic duties. It's a deck of cards which each represent the domestic tasks from managing your friendships to doing dishes. You take out ones that don't apply to you and can make a few if you're missing anything (like managing fertility benefits or tracking down cheaper medicines). Then you together distribute the cards to whoever does that task the most. At the end you can see if your silent tasks equal your partners silent tasks and redistribute tasks so it's more equal.
There's a book by the same name that goes along with it but isn't necessary.
This is your wife's issue. She needs to address her maladaptive jealousy as it is apparently wreaking havoc on multiple important relationships. Hopefully she recognizes this (you say she realizes some of her reactions are off). Keep pointing this out, start demanding she behave more reasonably. You don't deserve someone who is jealous of your sister (?!?!). Her tantrums are not yours to address. Like all tantrums, let them take their course, keep your cool. And while you search for a sex-poly-positive therapist for her, I'd recommend you get her the Jealousy Workbook. https://www.amazon.com/Jealousy-Workbook-Exercises-Insights-Relationships/dp/0937609633
Buy the Fair Play Deck it’s cards that you divide up with responsibilities. There is a book too but I think the deck is when you want actual action to be taken.
The thing to ask yourself (and answer very honestly) is: do you see yourself happy long-term in a poly relationship?
If not, wanting monogamy is absolutely valid and legitimate. Then, I'd say, even if you really like her, don't go forward. Love is not enough to sustain a happy relationship, and it will hurt both of you.
If yes, it is possible to be happily poly with anxiety. I'd recommend looking for (poly-friendly) therapy, and urgently checking out the books Polysecure and the anxious person's guide to non-monogamy.
You reminded me of the arguments made in the Two-Income Trap by Elizabeth Warren.
Here's a summary of the big takeaways from the book.
One thing the summary doesn't get in to that I've come to realize is that so many households going to dual-earners, the actual labor market has had 2x the labor pool compared to the 50's and earlier, and effectively suppressed wages in the process.
“We've needlessly turned parenting into an unpleasant chore. Parents invest more time and money in their kids than ever, but the shocking lesson of twin and adoption research is that upbringing is much less important than genetics in the long run. These revelations have surprising implications for how we parent and how we spend time with our kids. The big lesson: Mold your kids less and enjoy your life more. Your kids will still turn out fine.”
Sooooo….you’re very young. Your brain hasn’t even really finished developing yet and you’re just out of the puberty hormonal storm so really you’re just forming your adult self right now.
Jealousy is a mix of fear, anger, and sadness driven by our own insecurities. To beat it you have to figure out what those insecurities are and work through them. That may require professional help.
I suggest checking out the non monogamy subreddits such as /r/polyamory because us poly people have lots of resources for overcoming jealousy. You don’t need to be poly to use the resources though but a lot of them use poly situations to frame examples.
A book I found very helpful is this one: https://www.amazon.com/Jealousy-Workbook-Exercises-Insights-Relationships/dp/0937609633
Good luck, overcoming jealousy is challenging but it will ultimately make you a healthier, and frankly calmer, person.
I'm sure someone had already mentioned it, but The Two-Income Trap is a great book about this (albeit somewhat dated now, but the principles still apply).
I just read Polysecure by Jessica Fern and highly recommend it. The first half is a rundown of attachment theory and it’s the best, most helpful description of attachment that I’ve found as someone with avoidant tendencies. The second half gets into polyamory, still using attachment theory as a base to draw insights from.
At times it can kind of read like a “how to” guide moreso than an investigation into what it means to be poly, but there’s a lot of good material for ruminating over the latter as well.
I suggest you buy The Jealousy Workbook. Although it was designed for people in open relationships it’s actually useful for anyone who is struggling with jealousy in a relationship. What it comes down to is that you’re insecure and you’re afraid your partner will leave you for “someone better, prettier, smarter,” etc. Your partner is being honest with you and showing no reason to distrust them so the work you need to do is on yourself internally.
It's not just mothers. It's also toxic fathers and emotionally negligent or abusive parents.
I recently finished up reading Polysecure which covers attachment issues and how they can cause issues in a polyamorous relationship, and it was bloody enlightening and explains so much about dating. I'd wager 90% of Americans, not just men, start their early 20s not being able to build a relationship with a secure attachment style. It's the fault of everyone, the parents, society and schools. We teach a very specific type of masculinity.
I'm a fan of Polysecure - while it speaks a lot to polyam philosophy, its discussion of attachment types really helps you understand how to manage your relationships and spot red flags in others.
This book might interest you: Selfish Reasons To Have More Kids by Bryan Caplan who you might recognize as an economist. Not sure if mod2 would agree with the implications.
I wrote that comment before reading some of your other comments outlining hope much you work, etc.
As others have said, it's clear that it's fine for you and your wife to renegotiate your arrangement. That's fair. You could both benefit from some marriage counseling.
I am NOT a marriage counselor, but there is a book I would highly recommend reading (though it doesn't directly relate to your specific issue, it is very helpful in learning ways reconnect with your spouse and use that as a springboard to heal resentments, etc. The book is Passionate Marriage by David Schnarch. Later editions might be called Passionate Relationship but it's the same book.
I’m really sorry about that! It doesn’t matter if your situation isn’t “as bad;” you still deserve help. Are you able to access therapy apps like BetterHelp? They might be able to connect you with a therapist faster than on person, and you could text or have video chats.
In the meantime, there’s a Jealousy Workbook I’ve heard of that’s pretty widely praised in poly/open relationship circles. Even if you aren’t poly or opening your relationship or anything like that, it will still likely have points and tips on how to manage jealousy!
Here's a twist on your idea:
In the next weekend or so, tell your husband you have a "meet-up at the bar" fantasy and that you hope he'll play along. "I'm getting dolled up and I'm going to the hotel bar on Saturday, and I'm hoping you'll meet me there and take me upstairs. Only do it if you want. But whether you go or not, I'm going. I'll be at the bar with a cocktail in that one red dress."
And then he has to decide whether he'll take this step of growth or not.
This exact scenario was described in the book Passionate Marriage by David Schnarch. Highly recommended when you're dealing with mis-matched sexual expectations.
>I fail to see how this is a response to what I said. The fact that thrice as many American households make six figures as used to stays a fact no matter whether you think a six figure income is enough to make someone "Upper class". Pluralities or majorities have nothing to do with that.
Okay, so then it still comes back down to what material differences Americans en masse are experiencing. You can 100% be sure I will not protest that many goods are cheaper and better than 50 years ago. I simply think that if you add in the cost increases of:
There are many ways in which even those making $100,000 are far worse off than those making $100,000 (inflation adjusted) in 1970.
I would use the studies on spending found in this book by Elizabeth Warren as a strong source.
>Yes it does.
Apologies then. I read "pay off" as quite literally how long you are paying off any debt you accrued to get an education. Cost of college has exploded, but you are correct the NPV of a degree is high.
>Well unfortunately that's just magical thinking. You can't proof productivity out of the aether. I'm interested in actually solving problems and enriching people, not wishes and dreams.
I am too. I just also care that all people are enriched, and not just a few or a subset. Productivity is not only personal but societal and social. If a profession becomes more productive, we ALL should benefit in better services and lives, not just those few.
The Ethical Slut - on Amazon...
The "preview" pictures are of the front and back, but you can get it quickly (depending on where you are)?
What I hear from you is that it is important for you to be in a relationship with someone who dresses well and cares about how they look.
Your fiance doesn't do that. He is telling you that through his actions. He is not willing to change that. And he will not change that in the marriage. You are marrying who you see.
Now you know something about yourself and your needs and something about him. Is this something that you're willing to live with? There is no right answer, it's your decision as to how you'd like to proceed. If he's open to reading this book with you, it goes over needs of husbands and wives in a marriage and I believe one of them is looking good/hygiene/dressing well.
Historically, most people do not change unless they themselves decide they need to. So I guess the question is is this something you're willing to live with?
I would read the Polysecure book... Just to prepare yourself for the unexpected jealousy that might arise, learn to have compression (happy your partner is happy), learn about new relationship energy, and learn how to communicate the best you can. Being in an ENM relationship will almost force you to communicate better and if he is looking into kink, then he also needs to communicate as best as he can. Kink is all about negotiation and communication and power exchange, way more than it is about getting a little spanking while being tied up.
I am not poly, but I am a sexuality educator if you ever want to ask me anything, or I can send you the right direction of poly educators. good luck on this journey. It is brave of you to take the plunge into opening up your relationship and smart in my opinion. We look too much now for one person to fill all of our needs, and that is just not realistic.
I'll second this piece of advice - Polysecure is amazing.
To add to it, I'd recommend Running On Empty, which deals heavily with our attachment styles, where they come from (anxious and avoidant attachment styles find their origins in childhood neglect), and how we can be aware of and modify our behavior going forward.
But in short, no, it is not too much to ask for some reassurance every so often. Everyone sometimes needs it. Just be aware of how it is affecting you, what its origins and triggers are, and consider therapy. Therapy can do wonders, trust me. :)
Feeld is an app for this kind of thing. Be honest and upfront about your non-monogamy.
This book is very useful in navigating multiple romantic relationships.
See link below for the Bible on the topic. Google around on that author to get some idea about the concepts.
Basic ideas, there is always one higher and one lower drive partner , as the partner becomes more and more important to us, they become “too important to fuck”.
The old way or dealing with it was awful , attachment theory or “just fuck anyway to make the one who wants more happy”. This was standard up until the 80s. Didn’t work.
The new, better way to deal with it is “differentiation” making each partner more safe in expressing the differences between the two of them. Both partners become less defined as a couple, more defines as individuals, more confident , and as a result more attractive to the other and then the sex improves.
You're talking about "the mental load", also known as "the invisible work of parenting". It almost always falls to the woman unless the couple take steps to rectify that. Your situation is ridiculously common.
2 things. First, read this and then show it to your husband: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/26/gender-wars-household-chores-comic
Second, look up something called the Fair Play Cards. They are literally a deck of cards listing out almost all the household responsibilities, both physical and mental. Sit down with your husband, divide them up based on how things work now. Have a real conversation about each one. Then re-divide them based on how you both want things to work going forward.
The Fair Play Deck: A Couple's Conversation Deck for Prioritizing What's Important https://www.amazon.com/dp/059323166X/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_i_N0T9QZ441SQS6XJ4GKP3
I hear you. However, a really good marital therapist will still tell you no, even if that is what you ask for, because of the very dynamic that I mentioned. They'll refuse to do it that way, and that makes a world of difference. If you can get a hands on a copy of David Schnarch's "Passionate Marriage."
This book doesn’t tell you right from wrong as far as relationships go but it does give you tons of scenarios where something happened and you get a viewpoint from all or most partners involved and their feelings. It goes over the different dynamics of a poly relationships. I found it very helpful except in my experience it told me everything we did wrong along the way 😅
It has helped my husband and I better understand our needs vs wants with adding a partner in our lives. As well as how important and vital communication is for things to work.
It's not just social media. Academics and journalists are talking about this. Men can't be forced to marry at gun point now, marriage is so poisoned for them. Doesn't matter anyway, western women don't need men, it's all good. Here is some reliable subject matter.
Men on Strike: Why Men Are Boycotting Marriage, Fatherhood, and the American Dream - and Why It Matters https://www.amazon.ca/dp/1594037620/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_i_A4B7GDTYFSPRT23AC954
>I made it clear that I was under the assumption we both got enjoyment out of it otherwise there isn’t a point.
So you "made it clear" (pretty aggressive) that you were "under the assumption" (why would you assume rather than ask how she feels?) the "you both got enjoyment" (all evidence to the contrary since if she was enjoying it, she would want to do it, or at lease if she were enjoying YOU she would).
>complained about it as part of an argument.
Sadly, this is one of the least sexy things you can do. If you are complaining like this, what else is she going to think except that it is something she has to do for you?
Time to start over.
Marriages, generally, don't just end. They fade and wither, little by little, through superficially small, yet chronic issues like this one. So, the question is, do you care for the person and relationship enough to correct the course? Resentment is a strong beast, for which there is little Balm. Wishing you the best of luck and I hope you build the life you long for and deserve.
Honey I just want to give you a big hug , I also am here if ya need someone to talk to as I'm poly for years but also I have had to navigate through with my ptsd and trauma and how it can affect daily life (9/11 survivor), but also anyone I have anything serious with need to know from the beginning that I deal with things out of my control (incessant nightmares , times where I will not reach out because I need to focus on what makes me feel balanced and happy , etc etc) .. if I can make a suggestion, try and read the book Polysecure: Attachment, Trauma and Consensual Nonmonogamy ... it's honestly a refreshing read and really helps people like us who have to deal with the issues we have.
Honestly, I feel this post is EXTREMELY offensive. You’re triggering me with your ignorance and closed mindedness!! Swinging isn’t what caused my relationship’s issues.
Infidelity is related to betrayal and betrayal can take many different shapes. It’s very closed minded and selfish to think that your betrayal and/or trauma is of any importance greater than my own. This forum should be available to support those experiencing the human condition and relational trauma. Your emotions and your relationship are equivalent to my own, not unique, and your insinuation that swinging (relevant to me) somehow detracts from my marriage’s validity in terms of relational interconnection and vesting is the most ignorant thing I have read in here— ever.
Read this book (but buy from a local retailer), and stop hiding behind your belief that you’re in the only type of relationship that is important and that my heart doesn’t matter:
The Ethical Slut, Third Edition: A Practical Guide to Polyamory, Open Relationships, and Other Freedoms in Sex and Love https://www.amazon.com/dp/0399579664/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_i_C7C9D4BJ24P7TK16H5TS
Op’s post is super narcissistic. I’ve never been more angry while reading Reddit than I am right now. Seriously, wtf?!?!?
Most likely she just wanted to feed off of the sexual energy of the club to bring into the bedroom.
But if you guys do decide to open your relationship to others you both should read 'The Ethical Slut' for the health of your marriage.
The Ethical Slut, Third Edition: A Practical Guide to Polyamory, Open Relationships, and Other Freedoms in Sex and Love https://www.amazon.com/dp/0399579664/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_glt_i_44M6NZPRWHPFEH4T6TMD
Give it a shot
Doing polyamory (and just living a normal human life) means you WILL be left out at times. It's something you have to get comfy with but that doesn't mean it's easy.
> children are a time sink and are not how I wished to spend my time
Have you read Kaplan’s Selfish reasons to have more kids?
There are a few things going on, that I see.
You say that you are accepting, then turn around and say you are uncomfortable with them "bottoming to anal play". Have you thought about why? Is it just your partner, or all non-binary people, or bi men, or leasbians, the act of anal, or or or...
Your partner has changed since you have been together. They were all of what you need in a partner- Dominant. Now, they are not, and that is shifting and you cannot fulfill that need for them, as much as you want to. You worry if they will someday lose the part that you need... (I may be off base here, but it's a concern)
Other partners. Sharing can be hard when all you want to do is say "MINE". But, it sounds like they loves you and is trying to work on your relationship. Know that you can't be someone's everything. Just like there is no perfect food in nature. We need to eat a variety to get all the vitamins and minerals we need. Not a perfect analogy, but it works. Think of them getting his Niacin, Folic Acid, and Vitamin D while he's out. They will feel better after their vitamin infusion.
(Wow, the things I think of at 1 am during a fit of insomnia, I'm sure its not original, bit, ther you go)
Note on terminology: What you describe is Ethical Non-Monogomy. Polyamory would imply that he has romantic ties his othe(s). ENM just means, sleeping with other people, and everyone knows (poly is typically included in the ENM umbrella)
I haven't read it, but I've hear this book is good: The Ethical Slut - Janet W. Hardy and Dossie Easton
Some things to think about. Hope it helps. Let me know if you have questions.
So it’s a book that talks about how in our society women are expected to carry the load. The cards are a physical item to physically split the lines more easily, and also to show your spouse how much you do fair play cards
Also! There’s a great polyamory-specific book that’s amazing, all about attachment theory.
Polysecure: Attachment, Trauma and Consensual Nonmonogamy , by Jessica Fern
Cannot recommend it highly enough
Especially because: NP = 10 years; GF = 3 months! I think this difference isn’t clear because it isn’t stated anywhere in a single comment, but that makes a HUGE difference in how things are going between OP and GF, and then the 3-person decision to maybe move towards triad, and then the texting/flirting between NP and GF — the prior metas who are now feeling-out the possibilities of being partners.
In another comment, the OP said the feeling of cheating and betrayal was because for an entire day, they were or mostly were only messaging each other and not the OP - implying the OP felt left out.
There’s a lot in the actual OP post that makes this feel a lot more dramatic - what was the actual act of betrayal? Flirting and texting. Okay, for how long? Seems like a single day, or at least a very short period of time.
Regardless, deciding to made a V into a triad after 3 months, and forbidding the 2 former-metas from exploring anything related to becoming potential partners? Just in order to keep yourself comfortable? That is what people here are reacting to. Not the idea that all triads are bad (they aren’t). But the speed, the control, the rules
Besides the good recommendations here, one that I haven’t seen mentioned is the excellent book “Polysecure: Attachment, Trauma and Consensual Nonmonogamy” by Jessica Fern
It could be an excellent accompaniment to your therapy, helping make it more applicable to polyamory.
Amazon. And some other online book stores.
The Fair Play Deck: A Couple's Conversation Deck for Prioritizing What's Important https://www.amazon.com/dp/059323166X/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_glt_fabc_PBP15E0GG9FG9N4YRJ6W
35F here, a few years ago my husband of 10+ yrs and I were at the same place you are now, including your wife's hesitancy from previous 3ways. We ended up incidentally finding ourselves in a place of full on kitchen table polyamory, but that's a long story lol. The tl;dr version is to not be too narrow in your search, you never know what you might find!
The jealousy workbook (link below) is amazing for helping both of you work through the most common potential problems, especially jealousy (obviously) lol. That part I feel would be particularly helpful for your wife.
Be careful with the open relationship thing. It requires lots of honesty and painful hard discussions. Much more so than a good relationship with just two people. Strongly recommend you both start with this book: More Than Two: A Practical Guide to Ethical Polyamory https://www.amazon.com/dp/0991399706/
I think this is very normal, and honestly it sounds like y'all are in a really good place to have a conversation about this. Attractions and desire normally change over the course of a marriage, one partnering transitioning certainly amplifies this.
My suggestion would be to have an open, honest conversation about it. It is VERY likely (speaking from experience here) that as she comes more into her feminine self, and especially when she starts HRT, that she is going to be experiencing new attractions and desires that she may want to explore. You may find that this is a golden opportunity for you both to stay together while simultaneously freeing yourself to pursue things that fulfill you outside the confines of a monogamous relationship, especially one that is or may end up as a relationship that does not involve sex or romantic love to the same degree that it used to.
Of course polyamory / ethical non-monogamy is not a magic pill and it's not without pitfalls and challenges unique to it, but I think it's worth exploring for the sake of both of your happiness.
This book is a WONDERFUL place to start:
More Than Two: A Practical Guide to Ethical Polyamory https://www.amazon.com/dp/0991399706/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_glt_fabc_Q3C3XXZSRJA5RQ16FBEK?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1
Best of luck to you both ❤️
I’m so sorry. That’s so overwhelmingly awful. My heart cries for your pain. :’(
So, just to be clear, what I suggested and apparently got downvoted on as if the advice weren’t a valid option is actually good advice SOME of the time. It won’t work in every situation, and it certainly my won’t work if it’s not being ethically practiced. Ethical non-monogamy is 10,000% real, and when it’s approached in a joint, united front as a team, it can be quite enjoyable. I understand that not everyone subscribes to that kind of lifestyle, and I’m not trying to force it upon anyone. I merely suggested it as a starting point for others to branch out from and learn more about.
There’s a really good book on this practice called The Ethical Slut. It’s a good read, and it goes over types of open relationships that I would never be comfortable with. Still, it’s educational to the ignorant. I learned a whole lot from that book. It’s on Kindle as well.
The Ethical Slut, Third Edition: A Practical Guide to Polyamory, Open Relationships, and Other Freedoms in Sex and Love https://www.amazon.com/dp/0399579664/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_4RK727JFPY5NEHYZF5JC
This is the third time this week I am referencing this book, but Two Income Trap by Elizabeth Warren talks about this specifically.
If you subsidize childcare, you can end up in a worse situation of access for many. It will allow more in lower incomes to work, but will make things MUCH worse for many single earner (single parent with one in childcare or one working parent and one SAH) households.
Two-Income Trap by Elizabeth Warren
> We had her income to keep us afloat, which allowed me to go back to college for a real degree. That decision has easily quadrupled my earning potential since then.
Sounds like making better choices earlier in your life would've prevented you from needing a woman to pay your bills while you fix your shit. Either way, as you pointed out, totally validating my point, you've quadrupled your income. Her taking care of you financially was contingent on your potential earning potential. Men don't factor career potential whatsoever when caring for a woman. She could say she wants to be a CPA or a Preschool teacher, a dude isn't going to care about it, even if he's supportive. Meanwhile, a dude making 30k isn't even going to be noticed by a woman unless he's ripped and pursuing Tinder hookups.
>If you budget such that everything is affordable on either one of the two salaries, then you’re golden.
This is true of single-income as well. It's better to have one person making 80k than two people making 40k.
>What does that last part even mean? How are you in trouble with two incomes?
It's based on average American issues. As you have posted, this might not apply to you (you seem better off).
This book by Elizabeth Warren (pre politics) goes into it more. Suffice the arguments:
But, you know this, as you elaborated...
>If you budget such that everything is affordable on either one of the two salaries, then you’re golden. Whoever loses their job can just look for a new one. And isn’t forced into desperately taking something shitty. Because you have the other income to keep everything afloat.
>I can speak on this first hand because it happened to us back in 2009. We had her income to keep us afloat, which allowed me to go back to college for a real degree. That decision has easily quadrupled my earning potential since then.￼￼
And that's not typical, because the average household is competing with others for basics which require 90-95% of their incomes. You are better off than most, so yes, you could do so.
The average income for one person in the US is $31K or so, and just a bit more for working parents... which is not enough to raise a family on based on contemporary standards on one income alone.
Good housing (schools), education (college), and medicine are only attainable to many working households if they are working at full capacity. This is due to competition with OTHER parents and households doing the same.
This is exasperated by DINKs (Double Income No Kids) like me who can pay for MORE housing than we need, and make it even harder to live off of one income.
So I can see your points here, and frankly, I agree with them mostly. It's funny how much they align with circa 2003 Elizabeth Warren's proposal in The Two-Income Trap to have all savings be tax free regardless of purpose (HSA; 529;IRA;etc). It's not a terrible proposal, IMO.
I will look into it more, but I do still have marginal concerns as to the "effective tax bill" relative to the ability to pay (revenues and wealth). I spoke upthread in favor of a different version of the same thing, but moving the locus point from income to sales, and having a prebate attached.
Thanks for the discussion!
The only book I've read that could potentially fit that description is The Ethical Slut. It's been a long time since I read it, but I recall thinking it was pretty good.
Vanhempien osuus lapsen muokkaamiseen on käytännössä ohi jo ennen syntymää. (poislukien vakavat laiminlyönnit)
Vanhemmat stressaa liikaa aivan turhasta.
Psykologi Steven Pinker:
"Intellect and personalities of children are shaped not by parents"
Ekonomisti Bryan Caplanin kirja:
"We've needlessly turned parenting into an unpleasant chore. Parents invest more time and money in their kids than ever, but the shocking lesson of twin and adoption research is that upbringing is much less important than genetics in the long run. These revelations have surprising implications for how we parent and how we spend time with our kids. The big lesson: Mold your kids less and enjoy your life more. Your kids will still turn out fine."
Read this about the mental load of parenting. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/26/gender-wars-household-chores-comic
And then consider buying these:
The Fair Play Deck: A Couple's Conversation Deck for Prioritizing What's Important https://www.amazon.com/dp/059323166X/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_glt_fabc_FYEQ870PDY6WM7T9S9B3
My husband and I bought the Fair Play cards. Each card has a household task, some physical like "laundry", but lots mental like "communicate with teachers" or "plan enriching activities for the kids". We split up the deck to see who already held which cards. Unsurprisingly, I as the wife held 2/3rd of the cards and almost all of the mental ones. So we decided which cards I could pass to him to own. For example, he took the "cleaning" card. That doesn't mean I don't clean, but I no longer maintain the mental load of deciding when and what to clean. If I walk past a bathroom and think, "hmmm, that mirror needs Windex" I now tell myself "nope, if he wants it clean he'll either do it himself or ask for my assistance. Until then, I don't need to even think about Windex."
Give this a read https://www.morethantwo.com/jealousy-insecurity.html and also this book on Amazon helped me quite a bit https://www.amazon.com/Jealousy-Workbook-Exercises-Insights-Relationships/dp/0937609633 Good luck to you. Take your time and communicate with your partner.
If you’re determined to stay in this relationship go on a “wife strike” (some tik toker did it idk if it’s a trend or anything) and let him see how much you do and how gross he is. Because he’s a petty when he cleans I figure match petty with petty. But for a more mature healthy alternative there’s this “game” to kinda of visually and accurately show how much you’re doing. Including like mental preparation for a task or a task you assign him. It’s supposed to help couples help distribute the weight The Fair Play Deck: A Couple's Conversation Deck for Prioritizing What's Important https://www.amazon.com/dp/059323166X/ref=cm_sw_r_awdo_navT_a_7RM2RWFTDT0HN3AAG78Q
I’ve been married for 10 years and together for 14. A few lessons I’ve learned along the way: - communicate your priorities clearly to each other and check in regularly. This card game can help with that conversation. - be clear about what your standards are for completing a household task because his are different. Give him space to do the same for his priorities - don’t micromanage the way he does those tasks - do not hand hold and do not enable incompetence; you are dating a capable adult—let him fail and learn—the same way someone else let you learn - doing some things for you are helping; doing some things for you are being a good partner; most things are just being a grown ass adult
Stepping back, letting go of control, and handing half the burden I carried in managing our household to my husband—I’ll just say that when my husband is my partner, he’s is a lot more sexy to me and we both find our relationship to be a lot more satisfying.
The discomfort of not being accommodating in the short term is so, so worth it in the long term. You’ve got a good guy; your relationship is worth it.