What is Reddit's opinion of A Marginal Jew: Rethinking the Historical Jesus, Vol. 2 - Mentor, Message, and Miracles?

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I''m not a historian, but it's not like Stephen Law is either. Point is, if any actual historians have a problem with what I say in this comment, please let me know.

Anyways, Law's argument is ridiculous.

Let me address some of his points.

>However, when we peel back the layers of mythology surrounding other figures, such as Jon Frum, figurehead of the cargo-cult religions that developed in the 1930s on the islands of Tanna and Vanuatu, it is not clear that there is any historical core.20 Not only are the various amazing claims about Frum not true, it appears quite likely that there was never any such person.

First off, in some versions of the story the basis of Jon Frum is a real man named Manehivi. So if that is true that makes this a bad example for Law to use.

Also, what is with mythicist's obsession with the Jon Frum analogy? I can point to analogies that are much more relevant to early Christianity and that support the idea that religions can develop around real individuals. I'll do that now.

Example 1: Menachem Mendel Schneerson

Menachem Mendel Schneerson was believed by some during his life to be the Messiah, and people continued to believe he was the Messiah even after his death.

Here is a paper comparing Chabad Messianism to early Christianity. Here's one interesting comparison the paper makes:

>To return to the War of Gog and Magog, then, the Lubavitcher Rebbe was a rare voice of optimism and hope amid the frenzied preparations for the Gulf War in Israel. While many Jews and Gentiles worldwide worried about the possibility of chemical and biological warfare against Israel via Iraq’s Scud missiles, even raising the terrible spectre of a new Holocaust, the Rebbe proclaimed hope on the basis of a tradition in Yalqut Shimoni (., on Isa .) that interpreted the passages from Ezek – as a reference to a war between the ruler of Persia and the ruler of Arabia.
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>In fact, so strong was his confidence in this exegesis that he forbade his followers to pick up the free gas masks provided by the Israeli authorities. Moreover, at a time when many Israelis were flooding to Lod airport to catch flights out of the country for the duration of the war, the Rebbe not only vetoed such an exit, but also inspired hundreds of his followers from abroad to fly in to demonstrate their solidarity with Israel and their confidence in the Rebbe’s prophecy that during the war the Jewish state would be the safest place in the world. Even some non-Lubavitchers and secular Israelis were impressed by the apparent fulfilment of the Rebbe’s prophecy, and for his followers, the fact that no substantial harm did come to Israel during the war, whereas Saddam Hussein’s forces were shattered, served to confirm his status as ‘the prophet of the generation’ and even the Messiah.
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>And this is the first of the parallels that I wish to draw with the view of Jesus among the earliest Christians. For the early Christians, too, saw a war between Israel and a foreign power as the fulfilment of a prophecy uttered by their Messiah, namely Jesus, when he foresaw the destruction of the Temple, which occurred in  CE as the climax of the Jewish revolt against Rome. And for the Christians, too, this fulfilment of prophecy confirmed their Rebbe’s messianic status.

Example 2: Joseph Smith

Joseph Smith was the founder of Mormonism. He was alleged to have performed miracles.

He even made a prophecy predicting the American Civil War.

Both of these individuals are figures that a religious movement formed around. Both of these figures were believed by some to have made accurate prophecies. And Smith was even associated with multiple alleged miracles. Yet both of these individuals definitely existed.

So why the hell should we rule out Jesus' existence or the accuracy of the NT based on alleged miracles alone?

(And before anyone asks, no I do not believe that Smith did anything supernatural or that the Rebbe is the Messiah.)

>Other mythic narratives, e.g., concerning Hercules, also appear to have no historical figure at their core.

Except nobody wrote about a historical Hercules around 20 years after his alleged death, in contrast to Paul talking about Jesus in his letters. And Hercules didn't have 4 biographies written about him by believers in the same century he already lived (the Gospels). Hercules also doesn't have a historian (who isn't a member of his cult) mentioning him 60 years after his death (Josephus). Why can't mythicists grasp this concept?

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Anyways, OP I am going to give you two suggestions.

One, either buy or borrow a copy of JP Meier's book: A Marginal Jew: Vol. 2 - Mentor, Message, and Miracles.

Meier addresses topics such as Jesus' alleged miracles, what historians can and cannot say about miracles, and how Jesus' miracles compare to other accounts of miracle workers around that time period.

Two: Listen to this episode of the New Testament Review podcast. The two people who run the podcast are students at Duke University and in each episode they discuss an influential paper/book in New Testament scholarship. In this episode, they act as if Lee Strobel's The Case for Christ is a piece of NT scholarship so that they can point out the problems with it. One of the main points they make (which is why I am recommending you listen to it), is that apologists often act like we have a binary choice between accepting the Gospels as 100% true or completely false. In reality, historians don't completely dismiss or completely accept accounts like the Gospels a priori, but instead attempt to separate the fact from the fiction. They also touch a little on the comparison between the supernatural elements in Plutarch's account of Alexander the Great's life and the Gospels that Law mentioned.

According to the consensus of scholars today, A Marginal Jew by John P. Meier, is considered to be the best historical account of Jesus to date.

The link I provided is to volume 2 of the series which is the one most focused on Jesus' life. You may be able to find this book through an interlibrary loan.

This was answered over at /r/AcademicBiblical if you'd like to verify my information.