It is curious that the cult of woke use the exact same methods cults use to recuit members:
Combating Cult Mind Control: The Guide to Protection, Rescue and Recovery from Destructive Cults
If you like to read, Combating Cult Mind Control is a great book. It will help you sort through some of the fear responses conditioned in us when we leave.
You aren't alone.
I'm ex-cult (Jehovah's Witness) and anti-cult as well, but there are better ways to reach these people than feeding their "us vs them" persecution complex.
And with this brilliant breakdown I will add my personal favorite book in the study of mind control.
Combating Cult Mind Control: The Guide to Protection, Rescue and Recovery from Destructive Cults https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00V9DU340/ref=cm_sw_r_awdo_32CB4P24BG101WYV1FHH
I would also recommend this book for your healing process as well. Steven Hassan is a former Moonie, which is another Korean cult, and he dedicated his life to exposing the psychology that high control / destructive groups use to maintain and control their members. Reading his book helped me process and heal.
I think I recall Steve Hassan in his book saying that most cults distort time by having a world-changing event or some form of 'great turnaround' event happen in ~2.5 years time (if i recall correctly), which is close enough to have an emotional punch for new members but far enough for cult leaders to be able to change the doctrine when the great turnaround event never happens (and it never does).
He also said that means that after a few cycles of false promises (so 2.5-5 years maybe), older members will get jaded, whilst newer members who have not seen the repeated failure of 'prophecy' to fulfil stay. From what I've seen, my guess is 2.5 to 5 years but I have no idea the actual average - I'd also love to see some data on this.
No problem! One of the methods of control that a cult uses is to isolate the member from non cult members.
Having the cult be their only source of friends and family, and also not allowing for a reality check to happen, makes leaving the cult even more difficult.
If you're interested, read the book "Combating mind control" by Steven Hassan.
https://www.amazon.com/Combating-Cult-Mind-Control-Destructive-ebook/dp/B00V9DU340
The author escaped a Korean cult in the 70s, and dedicated his life explaining how indoctrination works, developed a model called the "BITE" model, and has helped people escape cults ever since.
I also have escaped a Korean cult, and found the similarities between his Korean cult, the Unificatiom Church, and my Korean cult, Shincheonji, to be disturbing to say the least haha.
Credit to Steven Hassan from Combating Cult Mind Control
Here's the text:
"Since the Constitution protects people's right to believe whatever they wish to believe, close scrutiny of a group's particular doctrine is unwar ranted and unnecessary. But beware of groups with any is simplistic and makes all or nothing categorizations-good/bad; black/ white; us versus them. Beliefs that claim things as facts, but actually have no evidence-based research to support these claims. belief system that
Absolutely key are honesty and transparency. Any group's beliefs should be freely disclosed to any person who wants to join, before any pressure to join is exerted.
Does the group's doctrine claim publicly to be one thing when it is in fact quite otherwise? Are there separate insider and outsider doctrines?
For a group to have integrity, its members must truly believe what it stands for (and says it stands for). However, destructive groups change the "truth" to fit the needs of the situation because they believe that the ends justify the means. Helping to "save" someone is a rationalization used to justify deceit or manipulation. Legitimate organizations don't change their doctrine to deceive the public"
My advice: If you can't get the grandparents to stop, teach your kids about all of the religions out there. Teach them how similar so many religions are but how at the same time many of the religions think they are the only ones with the truth.
Teach them critical thinking. Also, reading this book yourself might help: https://www.amazon.com/Combating-Cult-Mind-Control-Destructive-ebook/dp/B00V9DU340
The book contains examples of many different religions and the tactics they use to try to control people. Once you know how to recognize cults and abusive relationships, you can help your kids recognize them too and avoid them.
You can teach your kids the BITE model, which can help them recognize when someone is using undue influence and power to try to control their Behavior, Information, Thoughts, and Emotions.
Oh, sweetie..
This might help you get out: https://www.amazon.com/Combating-Cult-Mind-Control-Destructive-ebook/dp/B00V9DU340
I highly recommend both his original text on cult behavior (he is the father of the BITE method many of us are familiar with, which cults use to break down their followers) and the Cult of Trump one that he wrote more recently.
If I may, someone mentioned the writer and I searched on Amazon. I'm finding this book an interesting read thus far:
Hello,
Let me go ahead and share some of the steps that I have taken to rebuild my life.
First, I spent a fair amount of time deconstructing what SCJ taught me from both a psychological perspective.
SCJ Skeptic videos are also helpful with this as well, ontop of reading articles from Psychology Today.
https://www.youtube.com/@SCJSkeptic
What really helped was reading Steven Hassan's book "Combating Mind Control."
Then after that, I came across Faith Yen's video whose a former Moonie / Unification cult member.
One of the things that really helped was comparing Shincheonji with other cults, and listening to the testimonies of other ex cult members of varying groups to realize that they all use the same set of verses against ex-members who speak out (like blaspheming against the Holy Spirit), and that Shincheonji really isn't unique or special in terms of doctrine or practices.
I have also spent a fair amount of time of deconstructing SCJ's theology, in which here's a website that goes into some of the doctrines:
https://examiningthescj.com/
Of course, there is more to come for that.
I also got in touch with a cult specialist therapist who helped me process what happened, why I joined SCJ, and what to expect emotionally and psychologically.
To no surprise, every ex cult member has a similar experience and "trauma response" to their respective cults, which also helped me dispel their "7 evil spirits" theology.
I'm now in the process of picking up new hobbies, while also helping others on this subreddit, in person, etc.
Is there a name for this cult? Who are the leaders? This seems like something law enforcement and the media would be interested in.
I did find this: https://www.amazon.com/Combating-Cult-Mind-Control-Destructive-ebook/dp/B00V9DU340
Hello,
To help your friend out, I would recommend that you first understand the manipulation and coercion that your friend is going through.
https://www.amazon.com/Combating-Cult-Mind-Control-Destructive-ebook/dp/B00V9DU340
The above book does a good job at detailing of how cults control and manipulate their members.
I would also recommend you to read up on the BITE model and how SCJ aligns with the BITE model. The BITE model is an excellent measuring stick to determine when a group goes from being a healthy organization, to a coercive abusive organization. The more boxes one checks off through the BITE model, the more concern one ought to be about their belief system.
From my personal experience, the best way to get someone out of a high control group whether its Shincheonji, the Jehovah Witnesses, etc. is by asking them questions and providing them a "reality check".
Some of the questions include:
Ask them questions about SCJ's deceptive ways of recruiting, and their failed prophecies.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Shincheonji/comments/sxcbrk/disproving_shincheonji_i_left_yesterday/
The above post goes into detail about the changed and failed prophecies.
Here's a detailed video about the Revelation 7 changes and how the order of Revelation failed.
Here's another link talking about the Revelation 13 changes and how the leader of Shincheonji, who claims to have heard and seen all of the events of Revelation 13, needs to update and change his doctrines.
Lastly, it was through a solid friend group who eventually helped me "wake up" from the group, as they would gently and respectfully point out the toxic behaviors SCJ would impose against my everyday life. This is something that you can also do for your friend.
Dr. Steven Hassan is widely considered to be the premier expert on cults and cult recovery. You might consider grabbing his book.
I tend to agree with you, more than I don't.
Good post!
I don't know how much you like to read.
I just finished this book and it supports assertion.
https://www.amazon.ca/Combating-Cult-Mind-Control-Destructive-ebook/dp/B00V9DU340
>Many people think of mind control as an ambiguous, mystical process that cannot be defined in concrete terms. In reality, mind control refers to a specific set of methods and techniques, such as hypnosis or thought-stopping, that influence how a person thinks, feels, and acts.
Based on research and theory by Robert Jay Lifton, Margaret Singer, Edgar Schein, Louis Jolyon West, and others who studied brainwashing in Maoist China as well as cognitive dissonance theory by Leon Festinger, Steven Hassan developed the BITE Model to describe the specific methods that cults use to recruit and maintain control over people. “BITE” stands for Behavior, Information, Thought, and Emotional control.
Sourced from this article from Dr Steve Hassan's website.
Recommended further reading: Combatting Cult Mind Control by Dr Steve Hassan.
Read Steven Hassan's "Combating Cult Mind Control"
When you realize how much the Mormon church love bombs, withholds information from, and gaslights its members you realize why you're feeling the way you do and why what the Mormon church does to converts is wrong. These are all tactics cults use to recruit and retain members.
You can resign so that people stop contacting you and trying to get you to come to church if you use quitmormon.com. If you don't leave now, the Mormons will keep pressuring you to get your endowments taken out and get married in the Mormon temple. The endowment session is extremely culty and makes you promise not to tell anything you learn about in the temple before you know what they'll tell you and make you promise.
Don't make me buy this one!
(Combating Cult Mind Control)[https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00V9DU340/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_glt_AGP7XBT7WKE424V4NAD9]
Here is a List of doctrine inconsistencies (not exhaustive).
Also, one thing I have noticed with a lot of members (including myself at one point) is the tendency to disregard all inconsistencies or minimize them. I think it's important to ask WHY this is the case?
Groups that use the BITE model of authoritarian control manipulate the way their members think on a subconscious level. One of the effects is that members of cult groups minimize any cognitive dissonance at ALL costs.
For example, if someone has been systematically conditioned to think that believing in a particular doctrine is a matter of literal life and death (a technique cults use called 'phobia indoctrination'), then do you think that person is able to be truly objective when interpreting information that their brain thinks would lead to their death?
The scary part is that ALL of this happens outside of their conscious awareness.
This is just one of MANY ways our we are easily compromised.
I would highly recommend informing yourself of how this works, through a book like this - after informing yourself, at least you can know you are thinking more objectively, irregardless of your decision to leave or stay.
So, after watching the video, I don't believe you'll be able to change his mind for him.
I mean that specifically too, the character in the video did exactly what he said Jordan does; from being vague to using word salads (although the irony that he did so using what is probably some of Jordan's most difficult subject matter is not lost on me.) He never steelmanned it, even by saying, "Well, here's the thing that would actually have made sense, and here's what he actually said, see how they're not even in the same realm of thought?" Instead he simply asserted that Jordan, while having a point, is articulating such obvious and banal things that he shouldn't be taken seriously. It's just basic/ simple character assassination, instead of dealing with the actual arguments or subject matter at hand.
And, honestly, plenty of things JP says are banal; but that is also why they are being seen as magical and enlightening. It's because they are so obvious we assume everyone knows them, leading to many not knowing them, or because the Truths are so ~~obvious~~ clear we simply look straight through them, like glass. Then, when someone articulates them for us we're all like "OOHH! Wow! I hadn't realized that!", or "I couldn't put that into words, even though I kinda knew it." It's one of the reasons I enjoy JP's talks so much: I'd always been irked that nearly all the people I know will go along with something like 95% of what had been done by others before them, without being able to articulate why they did it, or what the utility of that was, or "why shouldn't you do that, apparently 'bad', action behind door #3?" "Because you shouldn't"! "Okay, yeah I got that, but, fucking why?? I'm open to an explanation, but, merely telling me I 'just shouldn't' makes me want to tell you to ~~kindly~~ fuck off, you ignorant jackass."
Anyway, back to the question, and as other people have said: point him to JP's online classes. It's where he actually teaches the stuff he talks about, so, if there's a place where it's going to make sense to him; that's it. Also, don't rush it if you don't believe you're ready. Tell your brother that you want to make sure you understand the stuff in the video he linked you and find something that addresses the points there, if you want (might actually be a good idea) before sending him something random.
If you're determined to try changing his mind for him, I'd recommend looking up cult dynamics and the Socratic method (Newdiscourses has multiple things on the cult aspects of Wokeness and CRT and how to engage with someone in the midst of such things Also, Steven Hassan has some tips online on how to understand and engage with people so as to make sure you don't drive them further into any indoctrination that may or may not be present. {Not saying he is, mind you; I just want to make sure this is known, especially since if you screw a deprogramming up there is apparently a really crazy high likelihood of not being able to reach the person again.} Hassan's book is solid as well if you want to learn more.)
​
Note: I kinda crashed mentally (also, caffeine wise) in the end paragraph, so: my apologies if I lost coherence. Or anything else ;)
Have a good night!
It's great that you're thinking big, but I'm actually a little skeptical of social media censorship because I feel like censorship just serves as further confirmation of the conspiracy theorist worldview--"why are the elites suppressing this? Probably because it's true"
When I search on Google for "QAnon debunked", in my opinion there aren't very many high quality results right now. I actually think engaging with the beliefs on a factual level and pointing out inconsistencies in a skeptical and rational way could go a long way. That's basically what Richard Dawkins and the New Atheists did for Christianity a while ago, and it seemed to work pretty well. It's not easy to do this, but it doesn't have the Streisand effect problem. And it helps to deconvert people already in the cult instead of just stopping its spread.
Cult deprogramming stuff could help too. This book has a section on how cults use social media:
https://smile.amazon.com/Combating-Cult-Mind-Control-Destructive-ebook/dp/B00V9DU340/
The other day I posted this link:
https://mssv.net/2020/08/02/what-args-can-teach-us-about-qanon/
I really wonder how a QAnon person would respond if they read it, because it's not judgmental or anything. It's just a friendly account of a guy who creates ARGs and his take on QAnon as an ARG. It doesn't confront. It's just a matter of planting that seed of an alternative hypothesis in their brain.
I also found some books about escaping cults on Amazon. This one is updated to include a section on social media:
https://smile.amazon.com/Combating-Cult-Mind-Control-Destructive-ebook/dp/B00V9DU340/
Here's another book which might be worth a read:
https://smile.amazon.com/Cults-Inside-Out-How-People-ebook/dp/B00OZR1QNO/
I think this subreddit could be a really powerful thing, if everyone on the sub tries out different things for helping their loved ones, and we use the sub to share what works. If we come up with a set of best practices for QAnon deconversion that could be incredibly powerful.
>Not sure if it's cool to put this here, if not I'm sorry.
Yup.
>I’ve been dating my boyfriend (33) for nearly six months.
Keep this in mind. You've only been -dating- for only -six months-. You're under no obligations, and there are a lot more guys out there. Don't get too attached to a bad idea.
>He is a devout Christian and a leader in his church.
Holy f'n red flags Batman.
>Before we began dating he never told me about his religion, or how involved he was in his church.
I'd make a quip about how transparently this relationship started, but I'll just assume he didn't know you were agnostic.
>He’s always known that I am agnostic.
Nevermind then. Motherf-
>I’ve always tried to be SO supportive and am always happy to talk with him about his beliefs.
It's one thing to be supportive about a hobby. But then there's delusions...
>Even if we disagree I’m happy he is so passionate about it.
I'm sure you are.. Doesn't make his actions right though.
>We got into an argument this weekend because I felt that he was avoiding speaking to me during his weekend church retreat. Originally, I was feeling that he just didn’t care enough to make time for me,
Wait for it...
>wanted to “avoid having to tell his pastor that he was dating a “non-believer.”
... wait ...
>He told me that if he tells his church, he will essentially no longer be permitted to be a leader in his church
... and Bingo. Don't be surprised that a theist may consider the church before you. You know how indoctrination works, it's beaten into their minds since the moment they can understand the language. He can't help it, but you can. Dodge the bullet, I say.
>because they are against Christians dating non-Christians.
Cult survival 101. Don't allow outsiders, those with a different perspective. Those with a differing perspective. They're a danger to the cult.
>He said they would never marry us,
Well boo hoo. Church marriages have no legal weight.
>and he would have to potentially leave his church and find another. He said he’s prepared to do it, but I have mixed feelings.
He's not prepared to do it. If he were, he wouldn't be avoiding “having to tell his pastor that he was dating a “non-believer.” That sounds so nasty, non-believer. Why not just a person? Anyway..
>If I had known before we started dating that he would have to eventually make these choices, I would have probably just made the choice for him and never started this relationship.
Well, this is all on him. He knew, he hid it, he can deal with it. Again, 6 months. Not a lot of time wasted. Move on.
>I personally can look past a difference in belief, but how am I supposed to ask him to leave his church?
You shouldn't. Just as he shouldn't ask you to join his church.
>I care very deeply about him.
It's only been nearly 6 months.
>I am hurt and think it is unfair that I was a secret, to begin with.
A secret kept for the sake of his faith and the church.
>As supportive as I am I find the notion that he has to leave his church for dating someone supportive of his beliefs to be legit insane.
I'd also have called it insane, once upon a time. But it's really down to cult survival. "Purge the disease", as it were.
>I’m here asking for any kind of insight into what I see as an insane situation that I suddenly found myself in. How is this even a thing?
Well now.. surprise surprise, this is all not that uncommon. A few things to note here, foremost he did not try to convince you to join the church? Or give you any grief about not believing? Now there's a miracle.
It may seem he's actually trying, for your sake, but apparently he's still very much under the heel of his church. My advice here is to not waste any more of your life.
Ask him point blank if he's ashamed or afraid of being in a relationship with you, then if he's going to stop screwing around and go public with it. You're adults, he's supposed to be even more mature than you at his age (no offense to you; I was 25 too, once), and he's supposed to realize you can't be a couple while hiding behind the barn so your parents don't catch you kissing.
It's been 6 months. He can either give you a straight answer or you can keep walking.