What is Reddit's opinion of The Dance of Anger: A Woman's Guide to Changing the Patterns of Intimate Relationships?

From 3.5 billion Reddit comments

Sounds like you all have some communication issues. I had some similar issues with my first pregnancy and a therapist recommended the book dance of anger which I really liked and found really, really helpful.

Basically, you alone are responsible for your happiness and you cannot force your husband to change, especially through talking....or nagging. Instead, change your reaction. It will give you power and help break you out of the victim mindset. What you're doing is not only not working, it's probably making things worse so the answer is to change the way you respond to his actions.

I also have a tendency to take passive aggressive comments really personally. Individual therapy helped me a ton and eventually (because my response to them changed) they stopped almost altogether. If you can afford it, I'd also recommend a few therapy sessions just for you so you can discuss strategies and sort out your feelings. Basically the therapist was like 'why do you care?' Over and over. Emphasizing that if I felt good about how things were being handled that was more than enough. The implied message to my husband was that passive comments don't change my behavior because idgaf. If he has a problem he can sit me down with me and discuss it like a reasonable adult.

I feel you so much on this. Although my husband and I don't speak as harshly to each other we were stuck in a bad cycle of communication that was really tough on our relationship. A lot of things sound familiar to me. My therapist recommended this book and it changed so much about how I think about things and how we communicate. I highly recommend it. Like, really. If you do one thing, please read this - it applies so much to your situation I can't even express the words for it. If I had your address I would send it to you - I feel that strongly about you needing this book.

Dance of Anger: A Woman's Guide to Changing the Patterns of Intimate Relationships

It's about how you'll never, ever be able to change him but you can change your reaction to him which can have the effect of breaking the cycle and also of giving you more control over your life and how you allow people to treat you.

It doesn't sound from my description like it would super fix things but it really, really does. By giving yourself permission to have power and by recognizing the cycle you are in with your husband you can change things. Nothing you say to him about his behavior will ever really make him change because you can't make another person change. You just can't. But, you can change how you react which over time will change the way he reacts to you. It will also give you control because you no longer worry about what his reaction is going to be to what you do. You do what you want, what makes you happy and don't worry about what he does. You have to do what you need to do and he does what he needs to do and you will start building a space in the middle for your relationship and communication.

Ug. The book is so much better than all of that. Please, please read it.

I just want to chime in and say that this advice is where it’s at.

It’s scary at first, but once you gain your footing, your career dynamic will change for the better. And if it doesn’t change for the better, you’ll at least walk away from the company with a new sense of personal confidence and identity that will 100% benefit you at a future job with better dynamics.

If you’re interested in getting more info on how to do this, I highly suggest reading The Dance of Anger by Dr. Harriet Lerner. It has an entire chapter dedicated to career women and how to effectively deal with men in the workplace.

OP, please don’t de-self yourself for the sake of men’s feelings! These feelings you’re having are not all in your head and you’re in control of your own life to do something about it.

“The Dance of Anger” is a book I found helpful. It’s approach to changing relationship dynamics is interesting and practical.

The tl;dr version is that you can’t make people change, but you can set clear boundaries and stick to them. The most important part is to realize that our behavioral patterns establish a norm, and even our fights serve to maintain those norms. Any action to change that norm will be met with resistance initially, and that is normal and not anyone’s fault. But if you stick to your guns, new behavioral patterns will form that will (hopefully) be more in line with your values. I got the audiobook on Libby for free. It really helped me understand myself, my anger, and my relationship better.

https://www.amazon.com/Dance-Anger-Changing-Patterns-Relationships/dp/0062319043

Not normal.

Buy the book ‘dance of anger.’ Buy it now and read it and use it. It’s life changing. Harriet Lerner is brilliant. I learned more from that book than I did from thousands of dollars worth of therapy. Best $10 you’ll ever spend.

The tl;dr is that you’re family is putting you last because you’ve let them do that. If you want the cycle to change YOU have to change it. With actions, not words.

Edit. Link because omg you need this book.

Dance of Anger: A Woman's Guide to Changing the Patterns of Intimate Relationships https://www.amazon.com/dp/0062319043/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_26GZD8YPQPZC902NK3TY

First one comes to mind is “The Dance of Anger” by Harriet Lerner. I read it a million years ago in college and have been thinking about revisiting it! I liked how she acknowledges the anger can be there for extremely valid reasons and should be listened to ... but then what do you do with it, what are best ways to channel anger and make your life better, get your points across, etc. There are case studies that illustrate different dynamics and approaches. The info still resonates in today’s world. 😊

The Dance of Anger. You can get this book on Amazon or eBay for $10 or less. It deals directly with anger and family and friendships. Your local library might have a copy. See if you can search their website for it. A library card is free. Just return or renew it on time. Sometimes you can renew the books you have already checked out online too!

If you have ADHD you should probably be on meds but that's up to you. There are many low-price drugs that can help with it. Your regular doctor (General Practitioner) can write the prescription. You don't need to necessarily see a therapist for that.

Don't be hard on yourself! You are dealing with it in the moment right now. Getting angry at yourself just makes everything more difficult. Give yourself credit for trying to do something about it. Later on you can give sincere apologies to your friends and admit you had trouble with it. If they accept you back, great. If they don't, then maybe you need more resilient friendships than that.

But please do some research to see if you can find low-cost or free therapy in your area. If you can get a job with health insurance of course that helps a lot. Hang in there!

That's interesting (in a not so great way)! :( Bad for you and I'm really sorry that's happening. So many drugs can have amazingly different effects on us. We really are all uniquely affected by them. I found this book and happened to just post it in another thread but you might like it too:

The Dance of Anger by Harriet Lerner

I have to confess I haven't read this specific book but my therapist said specifically this is the one she recommends to her female patients. Your library might have a copy you can peruse for free, otherwise of course it's on Amazon. It's inexpensive and sometimes the best thing you can do is get your own copy nobody else has touched and find the time to read a chapter a night and work through your mind how it relates to you.

Of course most "anger management" books reccomend many of the same skills:

• watch for triggers
• become aware of your emotions that lead up to anger (anger usually is a secondary emotion)
• be careful of the stories you tell yourself when you become angry, they are not always right and often based on assumptions that are simple, every day fears - they don't like me, they think i'm a terrible person, etc
• separate yourself when you're getting keyed up - go for a walk or even just to another room to cool down and then come back and talk
• use a scale from 1-10 to self gauge how angry you are
• try not to be right all the time
• let criticism land on you softly
• realize life is a negotiation with your favorite people, treat them gently

But they're still solid, basic skills for both recognizing when something is happening that we don't like and finding a way to adjust our behavior. Hang in there! Tackle it from multiple avenues until you find concrete methods that result in better days.

> I’m going to educate myself about this triangulation schéma of which you speak.

This book has a chapter devoted to triangulation, although t's not about narcissist triangulation specifically. You might be able to get it from your local library if you wish. I wish this book didn't have "A Woman's Guide" in the title. I am a man & think that book is helpful for everybody.

Thank you for sharing! I feel like you are not failing. You're just trying to interpret the communication signals correctly. Dance of Anger may have relevant examples that help. I personally also have a horrible anger problem so I wish you luck!

Ok. First of all, don't completely cross therapy off the list. There are good therapists and bad ones, and I've had both.

Anyway, what I mean about using your rage to work for you is as follows:

Too often we try to get rid of anger, or judge ourselves for having it in the first place. This is especially true for women, who are taught that anger is an "unladylike" emotion. Um, no. Emotions are neither good nor bad; they are there to help us in life.

Now, that doesn't mean that you vomit anger all over the place, either. If the recipient of your anger is unlikely to care about it, or dismisses it entirely (hello? Mom?), then use that energy as the catalyst to change your life. Do something every day that you haven't done in the past because you were trying to "fit in." Only you know what those things are. It is up to you to create the life you want, whether or not your mom is a part of it.

As for books, Harriet Lerner's The Dance of Anger is a classic in this regard: https://www.amazon.com/Dance-Anger-Changing-Patterns-Relationships/dp/0062319043

I also like anything by Tara Brach - she's a great teacher who has helped me tremendously over the years. www.tarabrach.com

I think you have been doing a fine job with your mom; too many people (including me) keep going to an empty well for water. If she wants a deeper relationship with you, let her take the lead. Otherwise, you're bound to get hurt again.

Um. Yikes.

I’ve recommended the book Dance of Anger, The: A Woman's Guide To Changing The Patterns Of Intimate Relationships a lot here. For good reason. It’s amazing. It’s the best $10 you’ll ever spend. Please read ASAP.

You’ve also got a serious self esteem problem with you. He expects a blowjob for parenting??!. How did that expectation come about? And how often are you giving in to that?! Gross. And no. Have more respect for yourself and the work you do. I’d recommend a few things in addition to the book.

1. Get a therapist for you (you can do virtual calls now super easy). You are allowing him to treat you this way. You need someone in your corner reminding you that you have value and to help you identify your weaknesses and self esteem issues. You do not deserve to be treated this way but changing that must start with what you will accept. He won’t be happy about it, but you aren’t happy about the status quo. He can deal with it.

2. Encourage him to get life insurance on both of you if you don’t already have it. In that process add up the cost of your labor. Childcare would cost us x (daycare + nanny since he’s working 60 hours a week and that’s more hours than daycare) A house keeper will cost x. Takeout/chefs kits/meals will cost x. Formula will cost X. Etc. Find out the true cost in your area for all those things and have it listed out in a spreadsheet with sources. It’s $$

Discuss the possibility of you going back to work since he seems to resent that he’s the sole breadwinner. Discuss the cost above which you all will be paying after tax. Does it make sense with the salary you’d be earning?

He’s got a 60 hour work week. Sounds like it’s time for you to have the same. Set your hours. 12 hours a day x 5 days a week is 60 hours. Won’t take much for you to get there. On the weekends make it clear that you’ve already worked your 60 so you’ll need to split the weekend chores. Ask whether he’d prefer to take the kids or do the dishes/laundry. If he doesn’t choose you can. And leave the other for him. It’s not your problem if the kitchen doesn’t get cleaned. He can deal with it.

I think a lot of parents struggle to understand what is entailed with being a stay at home mom. If you haven’t done it you don’t know. He’s still being a raging asshole but he’s certainly not the first person to think stay at home moms are eating bonbons and watching soap operas. I’m sure you’ve told him otherwise but he probably needs to experience it to really get it. The value of your work is really important and you need to let him get some experience with that. I would very seriously start discussing what your household duties and finances will look like if you go back to work. I’d spend a few Saturdays locked in a quiet spot in your house and tell him you’re updating your resume, reaching out to your network and figuring out what jobs makes sense. Let him spend that time while you’re working taking care of the house and kids and deciding if he wants that to be the long term situation.

You said you have no place to because you have no income. That’s not a good place to be no matter what is happening in your life. You need to get a plan in place for what your life might look like if you do get a divorce. What will you do for work? What will you do for housing and childcare? Get a plan and start working towards what you need to earn income whether you decide to go to work or not. You should never be stuck in a situation because you have no options. Make your own options!!!

To be perfectly honest even though your husband is acting like an enormous jerk, I do think it can be stressful for some people to be the only income earner in the house as he may be reacting to that stress. It’s certainly worth talking to him about it calmly to see if you working would ease his stress and be a good solution for your family.

Also. When he talks to you about my money bought this or that I’d come up with a phrase you can repeat that is neutral but doesn’t accept that. Something like ‘and I’ve kept our kids alive and our home nice. So I guess they’re 100% mine since it’s my sweat that bought those things. Or we just agree to share the things in our lives and be a team.’ (There’s probably a better response, but I’d think on it and come up with a stock answer for when he’s trying to use money to control you/claim ownership of things)

Read the book dance of anger it deals with this exactly.

He’s not a bad guy, you don’t have a bad marriage but if you don’t find a more effective way to communicate your needs your marriage is going to suffer.

You shouldn’t feel guilty for not tidying all the time. He gets off work at 5 and watches a show. When do you get off work to watch a show? Set some limits for yourself and respect yourself enough to abide by them. Don’t let him make you feel guilty. He’s welcome to try, but once you’ve set the reasonable limit for yourself his shaming will have no effect because you know you’re right. You don’t need to be mad about it you can just say ‘oh. I worked all day taking care of baby and keeping the house clean. I’m going to rest now. If it bothers you, you’re welcome to clean it up or we can just do it together this weekend.’ No drama, no shame.

If you always swoop in to clean and take care of baby then it becomes your job all the time. It doesn’t have to be that way, but if you’re constantly seeking permission to take a break you are setting it up to be like that and to become resentful. You don’t need his permission. You are both working. Establish reasonable boundaries for yourself without guilt. When it’s your time to nap or unwind. Hand baby to him, tell him I am taking my break now. I’ll get baby at x time. And remind him if he tries to hand baby back early. If baby cries it’s okay. Your husband will figure it out. And if husband asks about napping or relaxing tell him what he’s told you — why don’t you do it while baby is napping. I haven’t figured how to, but maybe you’ll have more luck.

Edit. Really, really, really. Read the book. I spent time in therapy for this and was very worried about my marriage. The book was THE most effective thing I’ve ever done. It costs like $12 and it will take a week to read. It’s so hard to see the circular pain we cause ourselves when we are in it but you can change your pattern and have an equitable relationship without resentment!!

> aggression as my baseline reaction for everything

Anger and aggression are natural responses for protecting yourself. So never blame yourself for those reactions. You were trying to defend yourself. They were the adult, you were a child. So never feel bad about your reaction. Anger is a sword. And at that time you needed one. Today you may not need one so much. But those strong negative feelings are still there. So try to pick the people you trust and lower your sword around them. Give them more lenience and maybe lower some of your expectations for them. On purpose. To say, "I am going to be less harsh on this person when they make a mistake. I can still set boundaries and levels of expectation but I'm not going to blow up on them for everyday kinds of mistakes." And it helps to think about our own boundaries and which ones are healthy and which ones are problematic. Keeping a semi-daily journal to help with our anxiety can also be used to explore and become aware of our own boundaries.

Now as an adult you can look back and re-evaluate more recent situations where your anger caused problems. Let that be ok too. If you could have done things differently or better you would have. You're learning each time. It's excruciating and embarrassing but it's how we get from being bad at relationships to being good at them. Our parents, partners, bosses, strangers all require a different approach and it takes time to figure out.

Hurt feelings are unfortunately a part of being human. But it's also how we learn and grow. We can't grow without making mistakes. And the people in our life make mistakes. That's the nature of life.

Something we can do is consider the promise he broke from a larger scale. In a week or a month, how much will it have mattered? Try to lower your expectations of perfection. Let him be human and make mistakes. It's less important the actual mistake than how he recovers from them. Does he apologize and try not to do the same thing again. That's more important than the actual mistake. Recuperating together after an incident like this is how we can make a relationship even stronger. I hope this advice can relate to your situation in your relationship. The world is better with you in it because you understand how fragile human experience can be. We could use more fragility in the world right now. It's ok to have feelings and to protect each other.

To work directly on the anger there are books like The Dance of Anger (also in audiobook) and The Anger Management Workbook for Women. And there are also books like The Body Keeps the Score for working with trauma and strong negative emotions. If you find it difficult to relax there are techniques like progressive muscle relaxation (pdf) you can do anywhere. Hope some of this helps. Hang in there!

I'm obviously getting to this quite late, but had it bookmarked for a while to check out. :)

I agree with the points you made here, OP, and I think it's so important to consider these factors and influences before we judge the women. Because of how we are socialized, I am someone who has been guilty of judging Hannah B way more than I have judged Caelynn. Caelynn's way of coping has been more similar to mine and is definitely the more "socially appropriate way" even in how she didn't bring it up until she was forced to address it because Hannah B brought it up. Add to this that Caelynn is more contained and more eloquent, and I naturally sided with her in the beginning. Reading your very insightful and well-written post made me call myself out on what I've been doing recently when I watch scenes with their feud. Hannah's reactions have made me uncomfortable, but I completely agree that their (often edited!) behavior shouldn't make us believe one over the other.

I highly recommend this book if you haven't read it yet- I think it's right up your alley! https://www.amazon.com/Dance-Anger-Changing-Patterns-Relationships/dp/0062319043/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1476654196&sr=1-1&keywords=the+dance+of+anger

I’m so sorry you were hurt by my post. That would never, ever be my intention. We moms have it hard enough without getting mom judgement. I’m glad you said something and I sincerely apologize.

The context is important because it does matter that your husband isn’t pulling his weight. That’s not something you signed up for and it’s a bullshit line of logic anyway to say you chose this. You chose kids, but you didn’t choose to have a husband who didn’t do his fair share. Life is hard, it doesn’t mean we’re not allowed to vent about it or be frustrated by it or expect people to do what they are supposed to do.

I really, really recommend dance of anger. I’ve also been in this spot — my husband is the organizer, but he’s a workaholic so he doesn’t help around the house at all. It’s something that I spent quality time discussing with my therapist when I had severe PPA. This was the book she recommend.

You are right to be angry. It’s a valid emotion and should not be ignored. The issue is that telling your partner to do better isn’t very likely to make him do better. The book is very, very helpful with this. Lots of logical consequences and lots of coaching you on not enabling him. He’s treating you like you can take care of everything because for a long time you have been. You cannot change his behavior, but you can change yours.

For example, you all choose chores for him to do. Say - laundry - and he doesn’t get it done. Rather than nagging him, just do your laundry (and maybe some of baby’s) and not his. His consequence is no clean laundry. Send it out to be laundered if you have to. It’s that sort of thing. It’s hard and it seems expensive but (as my therapist repeatedly pointed out) divorce is more expensive. For my husband and I, it was lightbulbs and basic house maintenance. I finally hired a handyman. It irritated me to spend money having someone else change lightbulbs, but it’s a hell of lot better than nagging him. And the money for that comes out of his monthly budget for fun stuff. His choice is to either do the handyman chores for the month or skip Starbucks. He chooses to skip the Starbucks.

Your husband going out 3 nights a week is obviously a problem. You’ve got to figure out the solution. Is it that you get the other 3? Or that instead of your nanny/cleaner coming during the day she comes those 3 nights and you both go out? Etc.

it’s hard. I repeatedly told my therapist that I didn’t like those options - what I wanted was for my husband to act like the partner I expected. She repeatedly reminded me I had the power to change my actions to make myself happy but had absolutely no power over his actions. So I was stuck only with the choices of things I could control to make myself happy. It was hard at first, but the more I did it, the better I got at it and the more my husband realized that I wasn’t his secretary. If he wanted x done he had to get it done himself.

Also. Please know. You are not alone. Lots of husbands have trouble making this leap. It’s been 2.5 years for me and my husband is really great 90% of the time. It just took him a while to understand how our lives had changed and that my vagina did not give me some sort of magical ‘get all the shit done’ power. That it was just as hard for me to do that stuff as for him to do it.

Good luck and hang in there. ❤️

Oh, yup, I think you’re right. My mistake. Still, the conversion rate wouldn’t give you that info.

Broader point: there is certain data that Tesla historically hasn’t disclosed, and isn’t required to disclose. For example, Tesla doesn’t disclose its weekly production rate on a weekly basis, it just gives quarterly updates. Similarly, it will give quarterly updates on Model 3 deliveries, and on automotive revenue and gross margin, which provides all the info about the current mix of sales.

There is also lots of public, independent survey data that indicates what options and configurations Model 3 reservation holders want, and the likely ASP of Model 3s sold to this group. This data is readily available to analysts.

It seems to be like a poor use of time to ask for the conversion rate which, 1) by itself doesn’t say anything useful, 2) Tesla is well within its rights to simply decline to disclose, and 3) is only interesting insofar as it relates to questions about demand and ASP, which can be answered by public data available elsewhere.

I don’t think it is a good argument to say that Elon was dodging a tough question, or refusing to disclose vital financial information. That just doesn’t fit the facts here. The question wasn’t tough and the information wasn’t vital, or even useful. If you think analysts always ask good questions, refer to the Q4 2017 earnings call when an analyst asked if the Tesla Semi would use supercapacitors rather than batteries. That question comes from a lack of basic research. It’s just disrespectful at that point. Not every question asked is reasonable.

I think Musk probably was just genuinely frustrated at being asked questions that didn’t bear materially on Tesla’s long-term financial performance, on being asked the same questions repeatedly, or being asked for information that Tesla doesn’t disclose. When you’re wasting the time of a company’s CEO, CFO, and CTO with repeated or unreasonable questions — and wasting the time of the thousands of people listening — it’s understandable that the CEO would get frustrated. Normally, they would probably grin and bear it. In this case, Elon didn’t, and whether that’s a good thing is up for debate.

On one hand, I believe in always being kind, and on the other hand, I don’t believe in repressing anger when faced with a genuine affront. A lot of the social rules we have about professionalism and social decorum exist sheerly out of tradition or convention, and not necessarily because they reflect the truth about human emotion or how communication best occurs.

In early 21st century North America we have a complicated taboo about showing anger — who is allowed to show it, when, and why. This is a subtle topic. A good book on the subject is <em>The Dance of Anger</em> by Harriet Lerner. I used to think that anger is never helpful and should always be repressed, but my thinking has really been turned around on that one.

To cut to the chase, this friend sounds very high maintenance! If she's the only one that brings that out in you she's toxic. She sounds very manipulative. If you can't afford to do something because you're trying to save money, she should respect that! I don't think you need self-help advice from someone like that.

There are times in our lives when we realize some friends aren't really friends, they're just very needy people who use us up and never reciprocate. Sometimes we have to cut out people who are real life vampires. It's hard and emotionally nerve wracking, but we have to protect ourselves. Honestly, I think you did the right thing. Maybe it could have been less openly hostile but it was time to be done with that relationship.

Imagine if it had been different and you had calmly said, "I can't be friends with you anymore" or even just blocked her on social media and stopped answering her calls and said nothing, she probably would have blown up and caused a scene and told all her friends how you're a crazy bad psycho person anyway.

You guys had a pretty toxic relationship it sounds like. And when she accused you of all those things, you blew up. Criticism is often the quickest way to get angry. And you two had a really "deep reservoir" of history to blow up with this person. But it's in the past and can't be changed now. Don't beat yourself up about it. That only makes things worse. Give yourself a break. What happened, happened.

More generally speaking as it relates to anger management, being obsessed with being right all the time is a huge source of anger. Both of you can be right because you are two different people. But you come to decisions together. Which means you each have to learn to compromise.

I'm sure you've heard the phrase "marriage is about compromise". You're both right, just different. You have different perspectives based on their life experiences. So drop trying to be right. And pick up making compromises and decisions together. This approach is helpful in long term friendships as well.

You are the only one who knows how persistent your "anger management problem" is, so if you feel like you need to do some work check out Anger Management for Dummies. Or find another book on anger management. Just to kind of check yourself. Dance of Anger is a good one too. I hope you're able to feel better about it soon!

Instead of trying to offer you help, he switches to how his life is worse than anyone else's. He will never be able to help you deal with your anger because he has no idea how to deal with his.

I agree you should move out whenever you can. If you find a good roommate you can spend less on rent and even food if you can share cooking, etc.

Focus on learning about anger management. See if your library has any decent books. And if your job offers health insurance, see if you can find a therapist for a few sessions. It can be as little as a $20 copay sometimes, depending on your insurance and who is available near your location. There are many different approaches so if it's not working for you, shop around!

The Dance of Anger by Harriet Lerner is a good one. So is Anger Management for Dummies

Good luck!

I mean things that allow her to hit her lowest point Something that helps her wake up to the fact that her actions have serious consequences to herself and the people she loves. Usually that means some form of tough love. Take a look at the link for specific examples.

With her background, it sounds like she is dealing with a lot of really heavy stuff. Has she seen a therapist to help her work through all of her emotions?

I'd also recommend this book about mother/daughter relationships

another possible book to check out: https://smile.amazon.com/Dance-Anger-Changing-Patterns-Relationships/dp/0062319043/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1488593200&amp;sr=8-1&amp;keywords=the+dance+of+anger

Verbal abuse is abuse. This book helped me and my mom.