What is Reddit's opinion of Deadly Force: Understanding Your Right to Self Defense?

From 3.5 billion Reddit comments

>I realize you would still be alive as opposed to being potentially dead or disabled, but it still has the potential to ruin your life

Rather be judged by twelve than carried by six, etc.

>situation that warranted drawing, and potentially using lethal force.

Any situation that warrants you drawing should warrant your immediate use of deadly force - that is to say the protection of you or another from the immediate threat of death/grievous bodily harm/etc (variable on your local laws justifying self defense). You shouldn't be drawing to intimidate.

There's plenty of information on DGU cases/case studies out there:

• Take a concealed carry class in your area, taught by someone knowledgeable on the use of force for self defense in the context of your local/state laws.
  
• There are numerous case study books on the topic. Massad Ayoob's work (ex.) is very well put together, and very comprehensive.
• /r/dgu and other places for positive and negative examples to learn from.
  

Tueller's Rule would beg to differ that. Many tests have shown someone with a knife can close a gap of almost 30 feet in less than a couple seconds. Depending on who's carrying, that's faster than they can draw.

Everyone carrying should read this book. Tons of source material that, if you've read it, can be introduced in a court.

Along the same lines, you should probably search for discussion in this subreddit on the ShapeShift, and for that matter Stealthgear or any other piece of equipment before making a purchse. It's good that you are being a good sport about it. A common pitfall is that someone will buy something before they're told they haven't made a wise choice, and they end up getting their ego vested in their purchase.

Check out the sidebar for the FAQ and intro guide. The FAQ included a good list of holster suggestions, but again, search for older threads first before committing. A good belt is as critical as the holster.

You can get great deals on used holsters that will fit your pistol on the holster classifieds subreddit, which is also linked in the sidebar.

Ohio is not a bad venue. You have a well-known and reputable trainer local to your state in the form Greg Ellifritz, of Active Response Training. Check out the Weekly Knowledge Dump on his blog. Many traveling trainers also make their way through your state as you can see on this map/calendar on Firearms Training Hub, and you have a world-class venue that should be on your bucket list in the form of Alliance Police Training.

Formal training costs money, but the best thing you can do is to spend more money on classes and ammunition rather than yet another gun to add to a gun collection. That also has the side effect of informing and vetting your gear choices better than people on the internet can.

Your willingness to never stop learning and putting in the work to get better will increase the likelihood of not being in situations that can put you in the hospital, morgue, courthouse, poorhouse, or jailhouse.

To that end, here are resources for post-permit continued learning that I consider mandatory. We'll start with the free ones.

• 4-Hour Pre-Class Lecture for John Murphy of FPF Training's Concealed Carry: Advanced Skills and Tactics.

• The Cornered Cat, by Kathy Jackson

The following two aren't free but are certainly cheaper than paying for bondsmen and lawyers:

• Deadly Force: Understanding your Right to Self Defense, by the legendary Massad Ayoob

• Law of Self Defense, by Andrew Branca. I'm not sure whether your CCW instructor went into depth about precedent established in previous self-defense cases in Ohio and not just the text of the statutes themselves in ORS, but you may be interested in the supplemental DVD that Mr. Branca offers on his site. Maybe wait until it's on sale or offered with a bundle though.

Also just because, a favorite of mine I consider a modern classic:

• Concealed Carry Class: The ABCs of Self-Defense Tools and Tactics, by Tom Givens of Rangemaster Firearms Training Services

after this

Back in olden times there was a an actual paper magazine called Combat Handguns that carried articles from a writer named Massad Ayoob. He wrote a column in the mag called "Self Defence and the Law". If you can find these articles anywhere they are an excellent introduction to the topic. If not he also wrote a book on the subject -

https://www.amazon.ca/Deadly-Force-Understanding-Right-Defense/dp/1440240612

One piece of advice that stuck with me was to ask cops who they get to defend them when they are involved in a shooting incident and then put that lawyer on retainer.

Here you go, I agree with that.

Hi there. I hope you like taking notes. I think it's really important and I don't think people do it often enough when it comes to this sort of stuff.

CCW Safe also has an excellent blog with a ton of articles and podcasts for you to browse.

For state firearm laws that are general and not necessarily related to concealed carry, I like handgunlaw.us. Make sure you check the bottom of your state's page in that link to see that it is current.

Two state specific resources to look at:

 - INGO forums  - /r/INGuns/

A couple local training options that might be close or a bit out of your way:

 - Revere's Riders. Back in March they hosted an online lecture that I would suggest inquiring about to see if/when they will have it again.

 - IndyArms. That link goes directly to a classroom lecture in the next couple weeks you may also be interested in.

When thinking about justification of the use of deadly force, it may not be unusual to ask questions along the lines of "If I am in xyz hypothetical situation, CAN I shoot?" Instead of only asking 'can I', it would be a better idea to add the questions of may/should/must as explained by Steven Harris. Start from the previous posts he links in chronological order.

Two books I personally consider required reading for anyone who would have guns for personal protection (whether carrying or at home) are:

• Deadly Force: Understanding Your Right to Self Defense by Massad Ayoob. If you prefer video, here is a link to a YouTube upload of a very old and somewhat outdated recording but much of the core material remains unchanged.

• The Law of Self Defense, Third Edition by Andrew Branca. If you prefer video, here is a link to about 45 minutes of lecture in four parts that summarizes most, but not all of the important bits.

On top of all that stuff, there's still mindset/software and technical skill/hardware to worry about.

• For mindset: An excellent trainer named John Murphy made a ten-part, four-hour video lecture that was meant for students to watch ahead of time before taking his two-day class, but he made it free for everyone to watch on YouTube. Note that there are two more videos he added to that playlist but the first ten are his own content.

• For handgun skills: A serious student named Mark Luell examined his journey over the years, and wrote a summary on his blog of critical skills and training goals to prioritize given the limited time and money we have short of making it a hobby.

You did say you want the most knowledge possible, from reliable sources. The last three resources I will list are regularly updated content you can add to your feed:

• Active Self Protection is a YouTube channel that uploads on a daily basis with footage of what violence in defensive encounters actually look like. John Correia narrates the play-by-play and points out a few key points to take away.

• Lucky Gunner's YouTube channel doesn't update as often but just about everything that Chris Baker puts out is very professional and polished while still being relevant and informative.

• Active Response Training is Greg Ellifritz's blog (and training company), known on this subreddit not just for his excellent writeups but also for the Weekly Knowledge Dumps that he compiles.

To be clear, OP, if you have the element of surprise in a defensive use of force situation, there is a pretty good chance that you will go to prison.

Law enforcement will likely decide that you could have retreated from the situation rather than used force.

I suggest reading this book:

https://www.amazon.com/Deadly-Force-Understanding-Right-Defense/dp/1440240612/

> more on CCW and the legality of self defense

Read Deadly Force by Massad Ayoob, and/or The Law of Self Defense](https://www.amazon.com/Law-Self-Defense-Indispensable-Citizen/dp/1943809143) by Andrew Branca, paired with the lethal force / use of force statutes in your state.

https://www.reddit.com/r/CCW/comments/j2tvni/just_took_my_ccw_class_and_have_even_more/g786zy7/

Short answer: Brandishing is a crime. Defensive display is not, and should not go beyond show-touch-tell. While the letter of the law says it may be used against mere physical force, you're still going to guns, and someone punching through car windows with bare fists is generally not a realistic consideration. Getting pushed and pulling a gun didn't work very well for Michael Drejka. Review the footage of his encounter and its aftermath, and reevaluate your definition of 'acceptable'.

Long answer: Note that the amount of time that you have carried a gun has very little to do with your understanding of not only the local statutes, but the precedent of how the laws have been interpreted in previous self-defense cases in the state. It is like knowing the Constitution but nothing about Supreme Court decisions.

Training and resources I would strongly suggest:

• Take the Legal Use of Lethal Force class at the Scottsdale Gun Club. It is taught by a local attorney who specializes in self-defense law. He also teaches the 8-hour AZ CCW class, which frankly you should also take regardless of whether you have taken a CCW class previously with someone else.

• Take the Close Contact Handgun and Entangled Handgun courses, co-taught by Glen Stilson of Independence Training and Cecil Burch of Immediate Action Combatives. Cecil is part of the Shivworks group of trainers started by Craig Douglas, who established the concepts of Managing Unknown Contacts as /u/qweltor mentioned to you. Cecil will definitely teach you about it. Glen also has specialty focus courses on shooting in and around vehicles, but those are for alumni only and not part of his regular curriculum.

• Understand the deadly force paradigm as presented by Steven Harris. I believe most of the uncertainty of 'can I...?' questions would be eliminated if people instead remembered can/may/should/must, and stayed in 'must'. This goes a long way toward a defenders understanding of themselves and their capabilities, which may better inform their decisions in regards to training.

• John Correia, and Neil and Stephannie Weidner of Active Self Protection just had a live online seminar last week which touched on some of the things you were asking in regards to vehicles. It is probably worth the 10bux to access the recording.

• Greg Ellifritz has also written a bit about that subject on his blog, with a nod to John as mentioned above. If you haven't already been following his content, you really, really ought to.

• Deadly Force by Massad Ayoob and The Law of Self Defense by Andrew Branca are unofficially required reading for every armed citizen. Andrew has a state supplement DVD for Arizona on his website, and Mas is teaching a class in Tucson a few months from now.

• If you don't mind the long-form conversation of the podcast or interview formats, check out the content on CCWSafe. This one touches on it at about 15 minutes in.

/r/CCW Spend sometime getting to learn what firearm you are going to carry and read some literature like Deadly Force - Understanding Your Right To Self Defense by Massad Ayoob Also read our laws. They are very specific. If you are not feeling comfortable yet start with just carrying the holster then step it up as you go. There are plenty of resources to help you learn.

> and drive away with disappointment because my sig saur[sic] was not in its normal place in my middle console.

I highly recommend that you read and understand the laws on the use of deadly force in your state/jurisdiction before you carry a deadly force device (aka, handgun) in public.

> I was merely curious. I plan on becoming a lawyer and I get interested in legal interpretations etc.

> but this is where I was curious because I feel like it could very well have been interpreted as self defense. In the second a gun is drawn on you you have no idea wether it is real, fake, loaded, unloaded, and wether or not that person has an actual intention on shooting you

There are many CHL holders (who are non-lawyers) who understand the concepts of Ability, Opportunity and Jeopardy, or the concepts of Innocence, Imminence, Proportionality, Avoidance, and Reasonableness. If you haven't already, I strongly recommend that you attend a local CHL/CCW class in your jurisdiction. Even after you have attended such a class, I would recommend that you read Deadly Force by Massad Ayoob, and/or The Law of Self-Defense by Andrew Branca.

An affirmative defense, arguing self-defense, would require you to articulate to a jury that the decision you would have made if you were capable (that shooting from a moving vehicle, across an innocent person, at a person in another vehicle, while you were simultaneously driving your vehicle) was a reasonable and proportional response that another responsible person, similarly situated. Good luck with that.

> he's already going to be doing a 2-day (8hrs each) course for his CCW?

Depends on what is on the syllabus for the class (and u/crazyScott90 has more insight on that than I).

Legal education:

1) Massad Ayoob's class MAG-20 Armed Citizen Rules of Engagement does a superb job of teaching students what to do before, during and after a CCW shooting. Catch it when he teaches it near to you.

2) Andrew Branca offers a Law of Self Defense Seminars around the country that covers similar material.

3) If you can't make the class (or make it affordable), Ayoob's book Deadly Force: Understanding Your Right to Self Defense or Branca's LoSD book are also available. You don't get any instructor Q&A, but you do get a book you can refer back to at your leisure.

The link below is To a book by massad ayoob and it contains some insight into your question. The short answer is no, you should not modify your carry firearm.

Deadly Force: Understanding Your Right to Self Defense https://www.amazon.com/dp/1440240612/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awd_V6ZHwbDKT877B

If you want to see a short passage about this topic the following link has what you need: http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/01/brad-kozak/the-massad-ayoob-chronicles-part-v/

> So I've been doing training and reading Massad's book, and one common phrase that pops up is "disparity of force".

Which one? Massad Ayoob has written more than a couple of books.

I'd recommend you get a copy of, and give a close reading to Deadly Force: Understanding Your Right to Self Defense, Ayoob's most recent work. He explains well different factors of disparity of force, including physical size. He also explains that physical size is not the sole determining factor, and that your ability to articulate how the totality of your circumstances (including Ability, Opportunity and Jeopardy) are also important parts to understanding your incident.

It's a magazine.

State troopers can be entirely wrong about the law, particularly when it comes to self-defense law for civilians. They're cops, not lawyers. Even lawyers can be wrong if that topic is not their area. Nothing I say is going to convince you, but if you're going to use a gun to defend yourself I'd recommend you educate yourself rather than rely on what a friend told you.

This book may be worth a read.