{"product":{"product_id":"1612191290","title":"Debt: The First 5,000 Years","price":"17.6","image_url":"https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41Hh11WkivL._SL500_.jpg","url":"https://www.amazon.com/dp/1612191290"},"comments":[{"body":"[Debt: First 5000 Years](https://www.amazon.com/Debt-First-5-000-Years/dp/1612191290)\r\n\r\nCounter to the popular linear theory of currency progression, barter is a system that exists when there is little trust between the engaging parties. When there is trust, credit systems appear, even in primitive societies.\r\n\r\nSo in a complete societal breakdown, you and some guy you meet on the road might barter some food for medicine while holding shotguns on each other for fear of theft. You probably won't be holding a gun on your father-in-law if he wants to buy some of that medicine from you, and if he currently has nothing you want in trade you will still give him the medicine he needs because he's part of your communal support system and it's understood that he will owe you something in return, specified or unspecified, at a later date.","subreddit_name":"Qult_Headquarters","author":"drschwartz"},{"body":"[**\"Debt: the First 5,000 Years\" by David Graeber**](https://www.amazon.com/Debt-First-5-000-Years/dp/1612191290)\r\n\r\n\u0026gt;Here anthropologist David Graeber presents a stunning reversal of conventional wisdom: he shows that before there was money, there was debt. For more than 5,000 years, since the beginnings of the first agrarian empires, humans have used elaborate credit systems to buy and sell goods—that is, long before the invention of coins or cash. It is in this era, Graeber argues, that we also first encounter a society divided into debtors and creditors.\r\n\r\n\u0026gt;Graeber shows that arguments about debt and debt forgiveness have been at the center of political debates from Italy to China, as well as sparking innumerable insurrections. He also brilliantly demonstrates that the language of the ancient works of law and religion (words like “guilt,” “sin,” and “redemption”) derive in large part from ancient debates about debt, and shape even our most basic ideas of right and wrong. We are still fighting these battles today without knowing it.","subreddit_name":"gaybros","author":"GaySkull"},{"body":"Suggest a read of the late David Graeber's book [Debt: the First 5000 Years](https://www.amazon.com/Debt-First-5-000-Years/dp/1612191290/ref=sr_1_4?crid=1G6WI869KDZ3C\u0026amp;keywords=debt+the+first+5000+years+by+david+graeber\u0026amp;qid=1647840215\u0026amp;sprefix=debt+the+first%2Caps%2C1238\u0026amp;sr=8-4), probably the most important book on Economics in at least the last 15-20 years.. Graeber argues that it's not so much about the style of economic system, but power relationships. One more thing, anthropologists have known for quite some time that true barter was never used as a serious, long-term medium-of-exchange, ever - yet, Economics books continue to perpetuate the myth that barter was \"first\".","subreddit_name":"EconomicHistory","author":"opinionsareus"},{"body":"No you're not. Saying \"people are inherently selfish and apathetic\" is not \"realism\", it's you being an incurable cynic. The reality is that when people find common cause they are capable of communitarian solidarity. This has been the case throughout history. Before the advent of nation states it was what kept this species alive. Human beings are social creatures. The thing is that tendency has been perverted by the isolating, sensory overloading, effects of modern consumer capitalism. \r\n\r\n[Here's a book about it](https://www.amazon.com/Debt-First-5-000-Years/dp/1612191290)","subreddit_name":"television","author":"apostersposter"},{"body":"And yet we’ve been making slow but steady progress that’s increasing including those energy companies, who are now among the largest investors in green energy and transition. \r\n\r\nThat’s just been the hallmark of humanity not capitalism. \r\n\r\nYes, they do come from universities but there’s often an exceedingly complex number of steps between discovery and product. \r\n\r\n[We’ve always had money or a tool of exchange.](https://www.amazon.co.uk/Debt-First-5-000-Years/dp/1612191290)\r\n\r\nAnd pray tell who is going to man this pseudo command economy, and determine what it is people want or need and the requisite columns. And how will it not be an absolute failure unlike ever other time.\r\n\r\nIf you’re opposed to capitalism for whatever reason that’s fine but don’t go conflating that with climate change, all it does it put others off from solving actual pressing issues vs pining for bizarre Moore inspired Utopias.","subreddit_name":"ukpolitics","author":"SlightlyKarlax"},{"body":"[Debt: the First 5000 Years](https://www.amazon.com/Debt-First-5-000-Years/dp/1612191290) by David Graeber\r\n\r\nIt gives a really great walk through about the evolution of the exhange of  value (debt) and how that has shaped cultures around the world. It also does a great job of dispelling the modern myth of how wealth is created and sustained.  I highly recommend it.","subreddit_name":"booksuggestions","author":"Neurosis"},{"body":"A certain amount of poverty (not **desperate** poverty mind you) makes people happier. When people don't have everything they need but somebody else does and is willing to share, it creates a web of social relationships between people. Sharing, owing, and being owed all creates the necessity of engaging with other people in your community. \r\n\r\nDavid Graeber's book called [Debt: The First 5000 Years](https://www.amazon.com/Debt-First-5-000-Years/dp/1612191290) had this interesting anecdote about a culture in West Africa: everybody in their society owes somebody something. Neighbors will borrow eggs or flour from a neighbor, and then they owe them some eggs or flour later on. But they never pay back the exact amount they borrowed, they either return more or less or they return something else entirely like apples. And that forms a web of indebtedness that ties the entire community together. It's actually a gigantic slap in the face to borrow 12 eggs from your neighbor and then pay them back with exactly 12 eggs because it basically says \"Here's your fucking eggs back. Now I don't have to talk to you again, I don't **want** to talk to you again, we're settled up and we owe each other nothing now.\"","subreddit_name":"news","author":"JackedUpReadyToGo"},{"body":"that's a different way of looking at it than I thought you meant; I can see how we'd be talking past each other now.\r\n\r\n\r\ntraditionally, there's been a lot of debate of what aspects of human behavior are \"nature vs nurture\"; what do our genetics dictate (or influence) vs the environment we're set in.\r\n\r\n\r\nthe \"natural environment\" is a particularly thorny phrase... political theorists like Hobbes and Locke were very concerned about the nature of humanity in a \"natural environment,\" i.e., one that would reflect **only** the genetic disposition of humanity, rather than the combination of that and society.\r\n\r\n\r\nand I actually have started reading [Graeber's book](https://www.amazon.com/Debt-First-5-000-Years/dp/1612191290), and it is *phenomenal*. just provoking the idea that holding *people* responsible for their own actions (*rather* than the denizens they \"represented\" as despotic \"leaders\") is revolutionary. the Magnitsky Act comes to mind as a practical implementation of that, and it certainly has caused ruckus.","subreddit_name":"worldnews","author":"salientecho"},{"body":"I disagree that capitalism reflects human nature. I think that living in a capitalistic society for tens of generations makes people have a skewed perception of human nature. I recently read https://www.amazon.com/Debt-First-5-000-Years/dp/1612191290 which gives anthropological evidence of non-commercial societies and it paints a very different picture of human nature. It isn't all good, but it is different. I believe Marx makes a similar argument in Capital.","subreddit_name":"leanfire","author":"ccc45p"},{"body":"While many of the books I would suggest have been mentioned previously throughout the comments, might I add a sort-of different take on history? Check out David Graeber's [*Debt: The First 5000 Years*](https://www.amazon.com/Debt-First-5-000-Years/dp/1612191290) for a unique view on economic evolution and the role its played in the development of human society (particularly, how debt has been a major driving force behind politics for millennia). ","subreddit_name":"history","author":"starivore"},{"body":"If it makes you feel better, debt and credit are actually older than money. They had debt and credit in ancient Babylon 5000 years ago, but coins weren't invented until about 2300 years ago:\r\n\r\nhttps://www.amazon.com/Debt-First-5-000-Years/dp/1612191290\r\n\r\nKinda fascinating really... Gold coins mainly took off because it was a really good way to pay soldiers while they were invading foreign lands.","subreddit_name":"preppers","author":"bexmex"},{"body":"I never said that corruption isn't part of the global banking system. In fact, I specifically said that it is.\r\n\r\nAlso, the shareholders of the fed are publicly available.\r\n\r\nWhat do you mean \"put people too rich and stupid to catch on in charge\"? Who do you think is putting these people in charge? The lizard people?\r\n\r\nAlso, money has never been based on utility. Literally in no point in human history. Money has always derived from systems of credit. If you need a monetary history from someone who is ideologically aligned with yourself, check out the below. It's a good start.\r\nhttp://www.amazon.com/Debt-The-First-000-Years/dp/1612191290","subreddit_name":"nba","author":"noposters"},{"body":"\u0026gt; Markets have zero to do with government \r\n\r\nhttp://www.amazon.com/Debt-The-First-000-Years/dp/1612191290\r\n\r\nThis is a long book with lots of citations and anthropological evidence to say otherwise.\r\n\r\nBoils down to this.  Money is a state invention.  It allows people to trade value without trusting each other.  This is why the mob only accepts cash.  When states fall, people revert to informal and local credit systems and trade ceases.\r\n\r\nIt doesn't matter what the money is made of, it's real value is backed with state power and violence.  Without a state no one accepts trinkets for anything of value, like food or goods.  They will however accept mutual trust.  That's what informal credit is.\r\n\r\n\r\n","subreddit_name":"Libertarian","author":"intravenus_de_milo"},{"body":"Well, I'm reading that book.\r\n\r\nLink: https://www.amazon.com/Debt-First-5-000-Years/dp/1612191290","subreddit_name":"ethtrader","author":"thetompain"},{"body":"There’s been some fascinating research about how most “popular” revolutions are attempts by the indebted to tear down the system and reset their finances. [This book](https://www.amazon.com/Debt-First-5-000-Years/dp/1612191290) has some great stories. \r\n\r\nThere was also a big article in the [Washington Post](https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2021/02/10/capitol-insurrectionists-jenna-ryan-financial-problems/) about how many of the insurrectionists had tax problems and bad debts. Babbitt was just one of many, but since she’s the one who took a bullet to the neck her family is going to use *that* to try to make some coin.","subreddit_name":"LeopardsAteMyFace","author":"jasper_bittergrab"}]}