What is Reddit's opinion of Gender Trouble: Feminism and the Subversion of Identity (Routledge Classics)?

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It being performative and constructive doesn't necessarily signify any degree of choice by any means. Most (hardcore) constructivists concede that, though we may recognize the ways in which we socially construct concepts, that doesn't at all mean we can change them on a whim; they're not objective values, but neither are they subjective values, they're intersubjective. Which means a constructed social conception is far from implying any sort of "choice".

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I reckon you probably know it already, but this book comes very highly recommended in case you want to look more into the concept of constructivism within queer theory/gender studies, and an insight into the performativity of gender.

> I've just wasted all this mental effort for nothing

Nope. Questioning yourself is always important. If nothing else, it keeps us from becoming full of ourselves. And you've given more thought to this issue than most people devote across their entire lifetime.

Judith Butler wrote a number of books about gender (the first was Gender Trouble). One of her major points is that we are all performing gender - that it is something we are all copying, but there is no original - there is no platonic original casting shadows on the cave wall. This is a book that you will come across if you take gender studies classes. Back when I took those sort of classes, they were called "Women's Studies". This was the core of what I did for my second bachelor's degree (3rd was accounting).

On the thing of long hair. I grew long hair in high school. It was pure rebellion against my parents and teachers. After a few months, I went back to short hair because I hated how much effort went into taking care of shoulder length hair. I had to get up early in the mornings to have enough time to blow dry it before school (I had very greasy hair at the time and it would look like crap if I didn't shampoo daily - also I am lazy as all get out). When my parents asked why I went back to short hair, I basically, said "fuck you, you were right. too much effort." (it was a toxic family, and letting someone else be right = losing).

True. And I'm with you 100% I absolutely agree that gender roles are a construct that we start building from the moment a baby is born and thrown into blue or pink clothing. This is probably my favorite book on the subject.

I had these discussions with college classmates a lot, as I studied math and economics and often found myself elbows deep in an econometric regression with male classmates... but also studied dance and have been practicing classical ballet since I was fairly young. Ballet, if you're not familiar, has very deep anti-feminist roots and I could talk your ear off about what it means for a parent to enroll their little boys in football and their little girls in ballet... but something always struck me as too simplistic. My parents were very encouraging of anything I wanted to do and frankly, the way sports were set up in my school, I was much more likely to start acting ditzy, fall all over the football players and be ashamed of being in honors classes had I joined cross country, than coming home with bloody ballet feet every night. My point being that I wanted to dance and I didn't want to play sports. I was an artistic kid and my extracurricular interests had more to do with that than identifying with some need to be girly.

In our attempt to raise children in a gender-neutral setting where a little boy can ask for a hot pink microscope if he wants and a little girl can run past the barbies to the chemistry set, we aught to also avoid overcompensating or discouraging kids from doing anything they want because it does or does not align with our idea of what they should be doing.

Read 'Gender Trouble' by Judith Butler, 'Feminisms' (the Cambridge reader), and 'Revealing Male Bodies'. They will give you a solid foundation in feminist philosophy and theory. Highly recommend if you want to really know your stuff.

Lmao imagine being so humorless that not only do you not understand certain types of humor, but you actively seek and destroy humor elsewhere that you don't understand. ^^^src

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Hi! I did a research project about gender constructs in our modern day society, so I may have some interesting recommendations. I do want to add that it was a philosophy research, so the studies contain mostly philosophical perceptions and could mention some previous theories which aren’t quite useful to induct in our current society. But overall they’re quite interesting and fascinating to learn about:)

Here are my recommendations: -firstly I would recommend looking into Judith Butler. She’s a philosopher and currently still active in the genderstudies. She introduced, among other things, the theory of gender performativity which gives us great insights into the importance placed on gender constructs into our modern day (quite strictly binary) society. I would really recommend her book named ‘Gender Trouble’ to start with, since it is her first published book about gender and gives a good introduction into the study field. I’ll add a link leading to the book: https://www.amazon.com/Gender-Trouble-Feminism-Subversion-Routledge/dp/0415389550.

However, the book is quite pricy so I’ll add some links to (free) essays of/about Judith Butler too in case this would be a better option: -https://criticallegalthinking.com/2016/11/14/judith-butlers-performativity/. This is some general information about Judith Butler and her work -https://studenttheses.uu.nl/bitstream/handle/20.500.12932/30880/JTTON_BScThesis_Judith_Butler_Gender_Performativity_FINAL.pdf?sequence=2. This is an academic thesis about Judith Butler. It’s a bit more in depth than the previous one, so you may wanna try to read that first to fully understand the material. -https://www.amherst.edu/system/files/media/1650/butler_performative_acts.pdf. This is an essay written by Judith Butler herself about gender roles and femininity in our society.

-Judith Butler mentions Simone the Beauvoir quite a lot in het work, so I would recommend doing some research about her work too to get a basic understanding of it, especially on her book named ‘The Second Sex’. Simone de Beauvoir is one of the first woman’s in our history questioning binary constructs and gender roles in our society, so, despite the fact she was active in quite another period in our history (50s and 60s if I remember it right), her studies are quite interesting to dive into and to compare with our modern day society. This link: https://www.britannica.com/biography/Simone-de-Beauvoir will bring you to a Britannica page where you could find some information about her and her work. Through this link: https://www.academia.edu/25269014/An_Analysis_of_Simone_de_Beauvoirs_The_Second_Sex you can download (for free) an academic thesis that analysis ‘The Second Sex’ and gives you a better understanding of her influence in the genderstudies. It is quite long, but especially the introduction and the summary of ‘The Second Sex’ is worth reading (imo).

-at last I would really recommend looking into Claude Cahun (they/them). They was an artist during the 20th century and quite challenged the at the time gender norms. They could therefore be seen as a trans icon, especially in the non-binary community. Besides, they was an activist during the World War II and confronted the nazi’s during their occupation of France (her home country) through her art, which I find quite fascinating and almost heroic. They’s mainly known for her obscure photography and portraits which can be interpreted as an form of criticism against the binary society she lived in (and we still live in, unfortunately).

I don’t know where you live and if it would be an opportunity to visit one, but there’re current quite a lot of art exhibitions about/containing Claude Cahun and their artwork. I myself live in Europe so I only know the ones there, but I could really recommend the one in Rotterdam (The Netherlands). Apart from that, in Europe there’re also some good exhibitions about Claude Cahun in Denmark (Ishøj), Italy (Venice) and Liverpool and London (UK). I don’t really know any within the US, but if you look it up there may be some good ones there too.

However, If visiting an exhibition wouldn’t be an option, I could recommend this episode of the podcast ‘History is Gay’ on Spotify too: https://open.spotify.com/episode/62MVBCnCBuzeeUiEhxRjo3?si=ykpJIxlsSVe1TpTVEmXo_Q. They go pretty in depth into their life story and mention some critical aspects of their life concerning gender related subjects. Apart from that, if you prefer reading over listening podcasts, this article in the New York Times will give a good understanding of their impact in the gender study field too: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/19/obituaries/claude-cahun-overlooked.html.

I’m aware of the fact that these persons and studies are quite philosophical/art related and a bit less like other hard scientific studies in the more beta area of science (biology or physics etc), but I do hope it may be of some use to you:) and ofc, don’t hesitate to ask any questions!

Hi! I did a research project about gender constructs in our modern day society, so I may have some interesting recommendations. I do want to add that it was a philosophy research, so the studies contain mostly philosophical perceptions and could mention some previous theories which aren’t quite useful to induct in our current society. But overall they’re quite interesting and fascinating to learn about:)

Here are my recommendations: -firstly I would recommend looking into Judith Butler. She’s a philosopher and currently still active in the genderstudies. She introduced, among other things, the theory of gender performativity which gives us great insights into the importance placed on gender constructs into our modern day (quite strictly binary) society. I would really recommend her book named ‘Gender Trouble’ to start with, since it is her first published book about gender and gives a good introduction into the study field. I’ll add a link leading to the book: https://www.amazon.com/Gender-Trouble-Feminism-Subversion-Routledge/dp/0415389550.

However, the book is quite pricy so I’ll add some links to (free) essays of/about Judith Butler too in case this would be a better option: -https://criticallegalthinking.com/2016/11/14/judith-butlers-performativity/. This is some general information about Judith Butler and her work -https://studenttheses.uu.nl/bitstream/handle/20.500.12932/30880/JTTON_BScThesis_Judith_Butler_Gender_Performativity_FINAL.pdf?sequence=2. This is an academic thesis about Judith Butler. It’s a bit more in depth than the previous one, so you may wanna try to read that first to fully understand the material. -https://www.amherst.edu/system/files/media/1650/butler_performative_acts.pdf. This is an essay written by Judith Butler herself about gender roles and femininity in our society.

-Judith Butler mentions Simone the Beauvoir quite a lot in het work, so I would recommend doing some research about her work too to get a basic understanding of it, especially on her book named ‘The Second Sex’. Simone de Beauvoir is one of the first woman’s in our history questioning binary constructs and gender roles in our society, so, despite the fact she was active in quite another period in our history (50s and 60s if I remember it right), her studies are quite interesting to dive into and to compare with our modern day society. This link: https://www.britannica.com/biography/Simone-de-Beauvoir will bring you to a Britannica page where you could find some information about her and her work. Through this link: https://www.academia.edu/25269014/An_Analysis_of_Simone_de_Beauvoirs_The_Second_Sex you can download (for free) an academic thesis that analysis ‘The Second Sex’ and gives you a better understanding of her influence in the genderstudies. It is quite long, but especially the introduction and the summary of ‘The Second Sex’ is worth reading (imo).

-at last I would really recommend looking into Claude Cahun (they/them). They was an artist during the 20th century and quite challenged the at the time gender norms. They could therefore be seen as a trans icon, especially in the non-binary community. Besides, they was an activist during the World War II and confronted the nazi’s during their occupation of France (her home country) through her art, which I find quite fascinating and almost heroic. They’s mainly known for her obscure photography and portraits which can be interpreted as an form of criticism against the binary society she lived in (and we still live in, unfortunately).

I don’t know where you live and if it would be an opportunity to visit one, but there’re current quite a lot of art exhibitions about/containing Claude Cahun and their artwork. I myself live in Europe so I only know the ones there, but I could really recommend the one in Rotterdam (The Netherlands). Apart from that, in Europe there’re also some good exhibitions about Claude Cahun in Denmark (Ishøj), Italy (Venice) and Liverpool and London (UK). I don’t really know any within the US, but if you look it up there may be some good ones there too.

However, If visiting an exhibition wouldn’t be an option, I could recommend this episode of the podcast ‘History is Gay’ on Spotify too: https://open.spotify.com/episode/62MVBCnCBuzeeUiEhxRjo3?si=ykpJIxlsSVe1TpTVEmXo_Q. They go pretty in depth into their life story and mention some critical aspects of their life concerning gender related subjects. Apart from that, if you prefer reading over listening podcasts, this article in the New York Times will give a good understanding of their impact in the gender study field too: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/19/obituaries/claude-cahun-overlooked.html.

I’m aware of the fact that these persons and studies are quite philosophical/art related and a bit less like other hard scientific studies in the more beta area of science (biology or physics etc), but I do hope it may be of some use to you:) and ofc, don’t hesitate to ask any questions!

Just here to add that there are many trans philosophers who have responses to this question. See this reddit post from a year ago naming some, and I notice it doesn't mention Rachel McKinnon who is extremely prolific and vocal. There are definitely even more.

On a related note, I'd also recommend Butler's watershed book Gender Trouble on account of the extremely important reversal of sex and gender that is offered there. Rather than the presumption that divisions of biological sex have led to the organization of humans into two distinct classes of gender, Butler argues (among other things) that a predisposition toward binary gender assignment determined the relation and organization of these organs into a class of performative norms. I think McKinnon and others build from Butler's reorientation.

 

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For a good understanding of trans identity start with some Judith Butler and then move on to Julia Serano. For a broader understanding of gender... I dunno The Feminist Mystique changed the world a lot.

I think u/MildManneredCat has an answer related to what I was going to say, except my only exposure to this topic has been through sociolinguistics, so I will focus on that aspect.

Gerard Van Herk has a chapter on gender in his What is Sociolinguistics book (p108) where he describes philospher Judith Butler's (1990) claim that gender is performative and that we can only reveal it to others by doing. He also uses other scholars' work to flesh out this claim (ex. (Meyerhoff, 2006; Hall, 1995; Kiesling, 2005). He basically talks about that when people (and in this case, straight-performing men) want to show that they are heterosexual, they tend to use language that reinforces that idea in the eyes of their peers.

In situations where younger men are using what they may consider a more feminine conversational style where they are collaborating and taking turns, rather than competing and interrupting each other, they try to masulinize it through insults and name calling. They may also try to discuss non-personal things like sports in order to make their conversation more masculine in their eyes. Even when they do things that may be perceived as feminine, such as gossiping about another man's clothes, they talk about his clothes as if they are less masculine (ex. "Those shorts are gay."), therefore reinforcing the idea that "The men outside of this group are homosexual, but us? We're straight."

I think this act is summed up very well with what Cameron (1997) called "straight cred." Bascially, when a man is with a group of other men and there are no women around, he may be worried that he may be perceived as homosexual. As a way to perform more masculinely and show that he belongs in the group with other men that he perceives to be heterosexual, he may use more masculine-coded langauge like curse words, interrupting and insulting others, or competing for speaking turns. But when he is in a conversation with his female partner he may not perform in the same way because he doesn't feel like he is under threat of being perceived as homosexual. Essentially, his partner proves his "straight cred."

So if we apply these ideas to your question, teenage (and likely even older) boys may say things that are misogynistic or anti-LGBTQ+ when they are speaking with other boys because they feel that this will help them be accepted as a heterosexual male, even when they are only speaking to other men. Perhaps as men get older, they feel less of a need to perform in this "masculine" way to be accepted as heterosexual, or perhaps they find other ways to perform their heterosexuality without putting down women and people in the LGBTQ+ community.

We may be able to extend this to racist remarks as well. These may be used in order to show their group that they still belong, not like the other people that are the victims of the things they say. That said, we have seen that racism, misogyny, and anti-LGBTQ+ sentiment exists within groups of older men as well, so perhaps the way these men act is less related to age, and more related to the groups they wish to be a part of.