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> in short Jews have nothing to do with christian civilization or scxienbce
I don't think that "judeochristian" term is referring to people so much as the line of God's revelation.
As a Christian, I believe that I am connected in the faith at least to Abraham at least, and somewhat to Noah and even back to Adam.
> catholic europe did hardly more science then india or Asia
I strongly disagree. There were centuries of infrastructure, culture and craftsmanship that the Catholic Church built up including the printing press, Galileo, Universities. Much of it is taken for granted, including "discovery" of the Americas.
For an academic study of the subject, I recommend the following:
https://www.amazon.com/Catholic-Church-Built-Western-Civilization/dp/1596983280
This is an excerpt from the book “”How The Catholic Church Built Western Civilization”
“Ask someone today where Western Civilization originated, and he or she might say Greece or Rome. But what is the ultimate source of Western Civilization?
Gifts such as modern science, free-market economics, art, music, the university system, and the idea of human rights itself ultimately came from none other than the Catholic Church“
https://www.amazon.com/Catholic-Church-Built-Western-Civilization/dp/1596983280
>1) Yes, you are making an ad hominem argument
Thanks, but that is not my argument. It sounds light you are commenting about my subsequent comments, which are not part of the argument. My original post is about Martin Luther himself, and you seem to agree with that.
If or when I make a post about the diabolical nature of Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide, I'll be extra careful to avoid ad-hominem, despite the evils that their champions have done.
> I really invite you to turn this form of critique against the RCC teaching the selling of indulgences, robbing poor commoners. (one of a great many examples)
Judas was Catholic and he sold Jesus for 30 pieces of silver. Malpractice of a religion doesn't invalidate a religion, it validates it.
As an aside , I hope you know that indulgences are in the Bible. They are awfully prone to corruption of course. If you didn't have a sacrifice for the temple in Israel, you could give money to the temple. As the Old Testament shows, a Preist would determine if the offering was adequate for the sin.
In any case, the Catholic Church has been the best thing for the world by far, building the most hospitals, the most orphanages, and feeding the most hungry. Since you brought it up, it sounds like you are mostly informed by protestant propaganda about Church history. I'll tag you if if I make a post about that.
In the meantime, I'd recommend a book like the following. Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1596983280/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_glt_fabc_24RW3NEE4QTY1Z3YX4XR
We have a weekly newspaper serving our town of Ajo, Arizona. Each 6 weeks we used to publish the school honor roll. The Catholic and Mormon kids would dominate the honor roll. I believe this is because the families from these faiths had some structure and discipline.
Have you seen the book How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization by Thomas E. Woods? He argues that our church has made positive contributions including advancing science and technology.
Of course given billions of people and two millennia you can find bad things done in the name of God. But weighing the good and the bad what is the net effect? I happen to believe Christianity has had a net positive impact. Or I would not be a Catholic.
However I'm not certain of this. In my view it's a very important question. It remains an open question I am willing to discuss.
However Tyson's arguments rely on fiction. His errors have been pointed out to him. But he does not make any effort to correct his errors unless they get a lot of publicity. As was the case with his Bush and Star Names story that was a standard part of his routine for eight years.
I am hoping he will become widely known as a source of misinformation.
I would highly recommend you to check out the book: How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization by Tom Woods.
>Why modern science was born in the Catholic Church
>How Catholic priests developed the idea of free-market economics five hundred years before Adam Smith
>How the Catholic Church invented the university
>Why what you know about the Galileo affair is wrong
>How Western law grew out of Church canon law
>How the Church humanized the West by insisting on the sacredness of all human life
Many Catholic scholars believed where the bible states that God created an ordered universe, and with that belief when out to explain how things worked. The book is decently detailed on how monks, scholastics, and the church itself fostered the development of things we take for granted today as good in human history.
Obviously the Catholic church had its blunders as well, but overall it was highly beneficial.
?
Then how is everyone else still here?
I have a summer reading project for you: it's called History in Four Parts
Well, I tend to think very highly of the regular users here; they are a pretty educated bunch and well-versed in basic Catholic history.
So normally primary knowledge of medieval Catholic history can be assumed. I mean, it's something I find most regular users here know automatically. I can see, however, what with a 13-day-old account and all and God-knows-what user history, you might be unaware of the basic history which most take for granted on this sub.
That being said, here is a lovely book with chapters on the history of Catholic charity in Medieval Europe and its blessed functionality right up to the time of the protestant revolt: How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization, Chapter 3
This is a short and sweet book that highlights the Church's activities and contributions to Western Civilization during the Medieval ages. Really fantastic book, can't recommend enough!
https://www.smile.amazon.com/Catholic-Church-Built-Western-Civilization/dp/1596983280
Try Googling Roger Bacon. Christian and Muslim philosophers laid the groundwork for systematic scientific inquiry. The notion that our universe is governed by laws comes from the belief our universe is a creation of a higher intelligence.
How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization is a book describing how Christians preserved and copied books, established schools and universities, taught literacy, built hospitals, observatories. How monks improved agriculture and manufacturing methods laying the groundwork for the industrial revolution.
Such good works aren't limited to Catholics or even Christians. Belief and aspiring to something higher has always been a uniting force. A unifying force that yields much good fruit.
How many universities and hospitals have secular humanists built? Atheist efforts to feed the hungry and shelter the homeless? Where are the prison ministries? There are many good and well meaning secular humanists but they don't have the cohesion that enables efforts comparable to church ministries. They also don't have the centuries of tradition that have served believers well.
Yes, there was the inquisition. Yes, there have been religious wars. But we're looking at a multitude of people over millennia. Of course there was bad as well as good. I am of the belief (hope) that the sum total is a net positive.
Any group or philosophy with a dedicated following will attract the power hungry. Some atheists have opined that losing belief will do away with ruthless ambition, greed and the capacity to commit atrocities. Their own version of invisible magical sparkle ponies.
> http://www.amazon.com/Catholic-Church-Built-Western-Civilization/dp/1596983280
So now we know why you might be mistaken. Does christian ethics include the ten commandments? And were they being followed when the church was burning people for withcraft or sending crusades against infidels!
Well, the Western church has perfected philosophy throughout the ages. Western civilization itself was built on the church. http://www.amazon.com/Catholic-Church-Built-Western-Civilization/dp/1596983280
Being Eastern Catholic myself, I obviously prefer the Eastern traditions to Latin (Roman) traditions, and find the East more aesthetically beautiful. But the Western church is the major voice of 'orthodoxy in practice' in our day, especially with the hot button issues of our day (homosexual adoption, abortion, etc.). We need unification.
But like I said the EO tradition has a rich history. Regarding Oriental orthodoxy, there was even an agreement made by both the Coptic pope and Roman pope some decades ago stating they shall not try and convert each other as it is against the ultimate goals.
But, convert if you wish. I would suggest an Eastern catholic church, hopefully you can find one.
I suggest checking out Tom Woods, author, Catholic, historian, economist's views on this:
Oh, I'm not allowed, am I?
I'm Catholic, actually (there is a difference), and I respectfully disagree with your premise that monotheistic religions are a step backwards. In fact, Christianity is the basis of all the flourishing that the West has enjoyed over the past 2000 years, including your mention of civil liberties.
I'll just leave this here because this book goes into the stunning detail and research that cannot be encompassed by a reddit quip: http://www.amazon.ca/Catholic-Church-Built-Western-Civilization/dp/1596983280
As far as resources go, it depends on your specific questions but I would recommend How the Catholic Church built Western Civilization and God and the Philosophers. You should be able to buy used copies of these cheaply on Amazon.
EDIT: Also, read Mere Christianity by CS Lewis. You should be able to find this at your local library.
I also recommend reading Fides et Ratio, if your up to it. It's a papal letter to the entire church on faith and reason, written by one of the great giants of the 20th century, Pope John Paul II. I linked to it elsewhere in the thread.
Maybe not what you're looking for, but this...
This is a really interesting post to read, my wife and I are converts and I very much resonate with what you have said. From the outside looking in, Catholicism looks quite austere and almost foreign (even though it essentially created the West as we know it). That sense of struggling seeing yourself as being "religious" is very natural, especially coming from a non denom protestant frame. I think the only thing I can say about this is that a lot of times the religious mind/mode can take a bit awhile assimilate to -- and that's okay (even though some come by it naturally). I think that is why the more intellectual route is what brought me into the Church; pretty much any question or objection you can think of about the Church and its founding has had a pretty serious treatment (at least that is what I have found).
I found this article by Bryan Cross on "Christ Founded a Visible Church" to be quite good and helped me work through some basic principles of how would I even philosophically establish an original Church like thing.
With many of the main line protestant denominations shrinking and non denominationalism (read: baptist light) on the rise I think there is a parallel increase in an emotivist understanding of what "faith" is. While emotions are an important part of being rational animals like ourselves, they should not lead the conversation, only enhance it if it conforms with reason. I think the LED rockband light show with a highly charismatic preacher speaks to how foundational emotivism is to the current nondenominational protestant ethos -- and that's not a good thing imho.
I'll be praying for you /u/Norwhalla and I hope you keep coming around here and asking interesting questions! Pax Christi!
Oh I am so glad to see this finally discussed!
If anybody is interested, there is a good book on how important the Catholic Church was to the Western world, that includes this topic - https://www.amazon.com/Catholic-Church-Built-Western-Civilization/dp/1596983280
(you can find a free PDF online too though :D)
https://www.amazon.com/Catholic-Church-Built-Western-Civilization/dp/1596983280
Even seculars beginning to concede:
https://www.history.com/news/6-reasons-the-dark-ages-werent-so-dark
/u/awfulapologist
Whoa whoa!! You're subscribing to a lot of historical myths here.
- The Church never persecuted scientists.
- The Crusades were wars were atrocities were committed (e.g. the sackings of Jerusalem and Constantinople) but they were started for a noble cause (the retaking of Jerusalem). Furthermore, let's not forget that the whole reason this Crusades business started is because Islam went on an aggressive campaign of conquest (they ended up taking Christian Palestine, Egypt, Constantinople and made it as far as southern Spain!) and eventually captured Jerusalem and mistreated a number of holy places.
- The idea of the Inquisition in the popular mind is largely erroneous.
For some write-ups against bad myths against religion, I highly recommend Tim O Neill's blog. Tim is a highly acclaimed history writer (highly praised by historians by Tom Holland and when it comes to his posts on Jesus mysticism, highly praised by NT scholars like Larry Hurtado, who is a big time scholar) who puts good history first, so its really refreshing to read (from an atheist!) his rebuttals of anti-theistic history myths. Here are some good articles of his that you can check out.
Church and Science: https://qr.ae/TUhJvN (MUST read in your case)
Church and Science (another article) https://strangenotions.com/gods-philosophers/ (must read in your case)
The Galileo Affair: https://qr.ae/TWtrwn
The Inquisition: https://qr.ae/TUhJvh
The Crusades: https://armariummagnus.blogspot.com/2010/05/gods-battalions-case-for-crusades-by.html (Tim also debunks a right-wing myth here, that the Crusades were a response to Muslim forces encroaching on Europe, but he also addresses other well-known myths about the Crusades see his section "Motivations and Biases" (ctrl+f this phrase).
Christianity and Constantine: https://qr.ae/pNyfvl
Hypatia: http://armariummagnus.blogspot.com/2009/05/agora-and-hypatia-hollywood-strikes.html
Pope Pius XII's response to Nazism: https://qr.ae/pNKYxm
Christmas and Saturnalia: https://qr.ae/pNyfr1
Flat earth belief in the Middle Ages (bonus): https://qr.ae/pNKYVf
You could also check out his blog here: https://historyforatheists.com/about-history-for-atheists/
Please, read further into this. And also, read up on the Church's contribution to humanity. See Thomas Wood's How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization. The Church's contribution to humanity is without exaggeration, tremendous. Our monks preserved classical learning by preserving, translating and copying ancient manuscripts, our monasteries gave life to Europe (they were agricultural powerhouses and also provided education, medical care and charity), one of our saints (St. Basil) invented the idea of hospitals for the general public (you heard me right) and the Church invented the university system (yes you heard me right again).
We also gave the world the Carolingan miniscule (how do you like using upper and lower case letters in sentences, using spaces to make things more readable and using question marks?) beer and champagne, modern musical notation (do-re-mi), the modern calendar (Gregorian calendar). The first three of these were inventions of monks!
You might want to give this a try. https://www.amazon.com/Catholic-Church-Built-Western-Civilization/dp/1596983280
I do have a horse in this race. I'm a Catholic.
Do I come on these forums to assert the existence of God? No. Arguments that can't be demonstrated true or false are fruitless.
But has Christianity been a destructive influence? Has it hindered the progress of science? That is another question. Historical evidence can be provided that the net effect has been beneficial. See How The Catholic Church Built Western Civilization by Thomas Woods, for example.
And of course there's evidence that bad things have been done in the name of Christ. Inevitable given two thousand years and billions of people. But what is the net effect? That's an open question I'm willing to discuss.
But, as mentioned, Tyson's cautionary tales against religion are based on invented history. This is arguing in bad faith and his falsehoods need to be called out.
Also noteworthy is that Tyson's false histories have been widely embraced by the so called skeptic community. Year after year Tyson would deliver these fictions to large skeptic meetings like the JREF TAM conventions or Beyond Belief. Tyson's Bush and Star Names fiction had been a standard part of Tyson's routine for eight years before Sean Davis blew the whistle on him. A steaming pile eagerly devoured by "skeptics", no questions asked. What happened to their sanctimonious advice that we should demand evidence to support claims? Thrown out the window when a story seems to support their personal prejudices.
Pointing out their emperor has no clothes also serves to discredit those who've put Tyson on a pedestal. Krauss, Shermer, Harris, Novella et al are as credulous and dishonest as Trump's birthers. Tyson and his fans preaching skepticism is like adulterous Republicans preaching family values.
> What are "anti-motives"
Things that will dissuade you from pursuing a course of action. Chrisitians practice self sacrifice (e.g.hunger), poverty, servitude, and suffered great persecution in history.
For example, Saint Bartholomew (an Apostle) was skinned alive and did not give up his claim that he saw the risen Christ: http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Saint_Bartholomew
> Jesus promised ever lasting life, and if you didn't follow him, eternal damnation.
There is no physical proof of that here, agreed? My point here is that they believed it because they had great faith (confidence). Jesus inspired great confidence when they saw Him do miracles and rise after being brutally publicly executed.
In contrast, false prophets like Mohammed and jospeh smith promise material gain. Mohammed got 20% of all the caravan raids, and both started sleeping with multiple women and children.
You should ask yourself why you can't see the difference.
> Also just as an aside, you think Heavens Gate worked because they provided free food...?
Why did you ignore the housing that I mentioned? The point is material motives enticed them to then follow that guy.
Jesus gave anti-material motives.
> You are ignoring every other cult and how we know people act in cults.
No, I apparently have a deeper appreciation and ability to distinguish than you do. If you can't appreciate and distinguish a cult from Chrisitianity, then you have a long way to go. I know there are a lot of bad "chrisitians" out there. Just because someone from Harvard commits a crime, doesn't mean that Harvard is false. It's the doctrines of the Church that are true. As GK Chesterton said, the best argument against Chrisitianity is Christians. Pay attention to His teachings.
I'd recommend starting with this book:
How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization https://www.amazon.com/dp/1596983280/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_AYh1BbWGG9DX4
Did you know Amazon will donate a portion of every purchase if you shop by going to smile.amazon.com instead? Over $50,000,000 has been raised for charity - all you need to do is change the URL!
Here are your smile-ified links:
https://smile.amazon.com/Catholic-Church-Built-Western-Civilization/dp/1596983280
^^i'm ^^a ^^friendly bot
For anyone who is interested in history...
https://www.amazon.com/Catholic-Church-Built-Western-Civilization/dp/1596983280
Then there's How The Catholic Church Built Western Civilization
You're missing one key fact:
http://www.amazon.com/Catholic-Church-Built-Western-Civilization/dp/1596983280
Thank goodness for the Catholic Church.
>And that's how we know you're all bullshit. The most heavily catholic areas in the world are not in the "West."
you don't know what you are talking about
the bounds of the West are the bounds of the Church
>The only "Western" countries even in the top 25 for Catholic participation are Ireland and Italy.
https://www.amazon.com.au/Catholic-Church-Built-Western-Civilization/dp/1596983280
id recommend this
Most people are horribly ignorant of history. They hear pop media and schools say and teach half truths or outright lies usually with no context. They don't bother to fill in gaps by reading or researching so their mind makes up the rest for it to "make sense".
Your average person knows perhaps three things about Catholicism: crusades, anti-science Galileo excommunication, and child abuse. The truth behind those events or the hundreds of years of civilization building history in between? Wholly, and usually willfully ignorant.
You seem to recognize history. If you're ever interested in Catholic history as it pertains to Western Civilization: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1596983280/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_prehFbFE7SYB2
> What? Where do you get this idea. Please supply evidence for this claim.
By looking past the propaganda in history. Check the facts deeply, especially the source. Read "How the Catholic Church built Western Civilization" for academically cited sources and peer review: How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization https://www.amazon.com/dp/1596983280/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_tgi7AbEGDTBHJ
Defeating the evil Roman Empire with Love was just one step. The Church instituted marriage, orphanages, hospitals, elder care, and most of the world's great inventions. Before that, most of the world did what Romans did. Abuse women and children, and prey on the weak.
There have been thousands of great Catholic scientists,but their impact goes way beyond that. Even Einstein went to Catholic schools. I am not trying to take all the credit, just where it is due. The boom that you are talking about stemmed from Catholic schools. The Church created the University system, and only a fool would ignore that.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_lay_Catholic_scientists.
> What about the dark ages, primarily caused by Christian destruction of pagan knowledge?
Any good historian will tell you that the dark ages are a misnomer. They were many centuries of incremental improvements that finally reached critical mass. Most of the bloody wars in Europe were heretics that attacked the Catholic Church. It had the right to defend itself.
Regarding pagans, there is God's truth in everyone,but you need to look at the whole of Pagan history. For example, Vikings used to play games by tossing infants onto spears. At the very least,you need to judge by the same standard. Their lack of progress for thousands of years speaks for them.
> muslim-dominated areas between the 8th and 14th century?
Much of that was pillage. Islam is trying to take credit for centuries of Chrisitan work. A historian showed me that most of those "muslim" scribes were chrisitans who were forced to change their name in order to avoid beheading. Islam is based on a culture of conquest, not cultural appreciation. They've always done what ISIS is doing today. That is nothing new.
Did you know Amazon will donate a portion of every purchase if you shop by going to smile.amazon.com instead? Over $50,000,000 has been raised for charity - all you need to do is change the URL!
Here are your smile-ified links:
https://smile.amazon.com/Catholic-Church-Built-Western-Civilization/dp/1596983280
^^i'm ^^a ^^friendly bot
God bless Ben Carson. Syrian Muslim apostate here. Islam is simply incompatible with Western culture. Why is this so hard to believe? Why is America so PC about things? I was a Muslim for the first 20 years of my life. Trust me, I know. Look up Taqiyya. I repeat, Islamic culture is not compatible with the West. No, I'm not a racist, I'm brown myself. I just don't accept the heresy of Islam and see it for what it is a la St. John of Damascus. I Take a look at Dearborn, MI. It's the best case study in the US. Just look up youtube videos of the crap that's been going on there for the past 5 years. 46%+ Muslim population. Muslim Police Chief. You think you'll be able to have free speech on the streets there? Let alone evangelize Christianity there? No. It's not a proper representation of America, honestly, and the values are just not the same. Open your eyes my friend. FYI, Dearborn has a lot of Arabs, but it had Arab Christians once. In addition, you may be surprised to see that 3/4 of Arab Americans are Christian, despite being a small percentage of the ME. The first Arabs were our Maronite Catholic Lebanese brothers and sisters who came in the 19th century to work on automotives. Slowly, the Christian population has left while the Muslim population has increased. There's a reason why Arab Christians have left the Middle East and can settle in the West! The oppression is too severe. Copts, Syriacs, numerous peoples have left. By its very nature, the more of a hold Islam gains in a society, the more Islamism will take hold. Look at how many followers/sympathizers the ISIS supporter and maniac Anjem Choudary has. Watch the VICE piece on him. 45% of Muslims in Britain admit to have imams who support to the removal of Western culture with Shari'ah. 72% say that what ISIS can be seen in line with Islamic rules, and state that ISIS is still Muslim. Liberalism is threatened by Islam. The problem with Islam is that the Qu'ran can be interpreted in a number of ways. There are two types of Muslims: those that adhere to the Qu'ran properly, and wish to live in an Islamic society ideally, and those that "put up" with Western society, and cherry pick what hadiths and Qu'ran to follow, until they become a more prominent part of the population and don't remain minorities. A fundamentalist Muslim is one who is against odds with Christian society which is Western society. I often hear on this sub that America is not a Christian nation, despite the fact that Western society was shaped by Christianity. Can you think of a single country with a dominant Muslim population you could live in as an open Christian? Actually have the free speech to openly promote Christianity? Not even UAE and Turkey. When the only people with the cajones to actually say something are the Arab Christians who have been persecuted and left to the West, Richard Dawkins, and Chris Hitchens, you realize there's something wrong with Western society. I'm not trying to slander liberalism, but liberalism has put naiveté over rationalism at this point. Open your eyes and listen to people who have lived through it.
> Well, I would say that Christianity is also not compatible with Western society either, but that would be an entirely different discussion.
Western society is built on Christianity, like it or not. There are so many resources to learn about this. It's ideals and values. Even the Enlightenment thinkers (Decartes, Bacon, Hobbes, Locke, Voltaire, Montesquieu).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role_of_the_Christian_Church_in_civilization
http://www.amazon.com/Catholic-Church-Built-Western-Civilization/dp/1596983280
http://www.firstthings.com/article/1994/12/christianity-and-the-westambiguous-past-uncertain-future
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_world
>I think you are trying to talk out of both sides of your mouth. You can't give support to progressive Muslims as a legitimate expression of Islam on one hand, and then denounce the entire religion as a whole on the other. It makes no sense.
Progressive Islam is not a legitimate expression of true Islam, which is fundamentalist Islam. That doesn't mean I don't support them or their rights. I talked about this in my post.
Humans did that. If you can say "god didn't save you the surgeon did" then surely you can see that God didn't do those things.
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