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In Sheep's Clothing: Understanding and Dealing with Manipulative People?
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Dear u/arcelyte's mom,
Please don't be ashamed of being a good person with a trusting nature. The Teds and Lindas of the world are predators; they are master manipulators, cunning and remorseless. They know how to present a false front to get behind the defenses of good people and work it to their advantage. You might find Dr. Simon's In Sheep's Clothing helpful in understanding the mindset and how to protect yourself in the future.
Third this, OP. You are describing a domestic abuse situation (including ongoing emotional abuse) that has a side effect or symptom which is a dead bedroom. But most of the warning signs you list would be for domestic abuse well beyond a DB. There are plenty of DBs that boil down to libido mismatch that have nothing to do with the manipulation you describe. And BTW, you describe great warning signs / red flags for manipulation!!
Suggest you have a look at George Simon's book In Sheep's Clothing: understanding and dealing with manipulative people.
Get therapy for yourself and re-build your deep sense of self-worth & self-esteem. It's waiting in there in the recess of your soul to come out and flourish for the next 15 years... Find a little space for it to start shining. Divorce will be a likely side-effect of this process, but more importantly you will do separate from your wife coming from a place of confidence and belief in yourself. Good luck!
They're very easily defeated. They're just practiced manipulators with that employ a VERY small number of tactics over and over to great effect:
Pick up this book:
In Sheep's Clothing: Understanding and Dealing with Manipulative People
The book contains MANY (not all) manipulation tactics and it is so helpful to be able to IDENTIFY them in REAL-TIME.
Here's a hint: If you find yourself getting angry, frustrated, feeling a sense of "injustice", want to smash someone's head in --- YOU ARE PROBABLY being manipulated and those manipulation strategies are taking the upper hand.
Once you can SEE the MOVES, without getting TANGLED UP in them -- you begin to find ways of defeating them!
If you'll invest just one of two hours with that book -- especially the Chapter that articulates most common manipulation tactics -- and then for the fun of it...make a little checklist --- to be able to check the troll behavior against that list -- your newly expanded wisdom and awareness will begin to prepare you for any battles.
I did this myself and literally cross-check media stories...troll posts....articles...videos against the list of manipulation tactics -- and now I don't REACT to them -- but respond!
So for fun -- think of yourself as the Karate Kid - and Mr. Miyagi wants you to wax on and wax off repeatedly so you can know those tactics by heart!
There are also many interviews with Dr. George Simon in Youtube.
He could just as well be describing trolls/shills as he is describing Narcissists and other "Character Disordered People".
They can ONLY flummox you, while we are unaware of what is being done.
You can leap-frog them and completely neuter their tactics - WITHOUT having to be like them!
I don’t know about the PDF version. I have the physical version. I’ll drop the Amazon link here In Sheep's Clothing: Understanding and Dealing with Manipulative People https://www.amazon.ca/dp/1935166301/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_i_3CZTZT6HFD0QJKKJKKA2
That’s the Amazon Canada. I’m sure it should also be in amazon us or other Amazon’s
See, this is a common misperception of evil or narcissistic people.
It's not that they don't see. They're well aware of it. They will just "disagree," that is, don't care and will tell you there's no suffering or that it doesn't matter.
That awareness is part of what motivates the malevolent, what gives them a frisson of glee in the act of cruelty.
https://www.amazon.com/In-Sheeps-Clothing-Understanding-Manipulative/dp/1935166301
You ever read the Gulag Archipelago?
// , Do not mistake stoicism for a lack of aggression. Aggression is not an emotion. It is a behavior.
If you're interested in the finer points of covert and overt aggression, read "In Sheep's Clothing: Understanding and Dealing with Manipulative People Paperback" – April 1, 2010 by George K. Simon Ph.D.
https://www.amazon.com/Sheeps-Clothing-Understanding-Dealing-Manipulative/dp/1935166301
Not sure if you will read this but the following has been true for me.
Manipulative people have ways of making you love them that is wholly unhealthy. You won't realise it until you see what a happy relationship is like.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/In-Sheeps-Clothing-Understanding-Manipulative/dp/1935166301
That book is a good start, it's all kind of obvious in hind sight but helps point out things that you may or may not be aware of.
Hmm, this might be unorthodox advice, but as someone that's been through all types of toxic friendships, going through therapy taught me that being naive and a pushover really attracts these types of toxic people. In other words, my suggestion to you, if you're up for it, is to explore parts of yourself that may attract these people. No no, it's not victim blaming, because if they're toxic, it's their damn fault 100% and they're not nice people. However, there is some truth to the fact that by being a pushover, toxic people go "Oh! Let's have some fun with this one!" Exploring parts of yourself that may seem attractive to toxic people may help you recognize these people better and fend them off with class and grace.
I recommend this book. It changed my whole life and the way I see people: https://www.amazon.com/Sheeps-Clothing-Understanding-Dealing-Manipulative/dp/1935166301
Emotional abuse follows classic patterns, one of which is isolation. Know that you are not alone. Here's what you need to do.
Identify your support network - if you still see your family they could be it. Your GF may have tried to isolate you, but if you have friends you can count on, connect with them.
Get therapy - both to support you through this and to help you grow from it later.
Know that you are enough. Watch Marisa Peer on this topic. Watch Brene Brown also.
Consider your options in the short, medium and longer term - where can you live? Can you squat somewhere for a couple weeks or a month while you find a place?
As you start to become strong you will change patterns with this person. They will react. It will not likely be pretty. You will stay strong through this. Just be prepared. When you leave, this will escalate. Be prepared for rage, and then a discard.
Here is a video about Stockholm Syndrome in emotional abuse situations
If you are still sleeping with her, use condoms. Do not let this woman get pregnant.
The sooner you actually leave, the safer you will be, and the sooner you can start to really heal.
Important google terms: narcissistic abuse, emotional abuse, coercive control, covert aggression.
Good book: In Sheep's Clothing by George Simon.
You are young, you are strong, you will leave and you will grow.
Protect yourself. Abuse happens to men too! But society is set up to believe the woman. She will use this. Just be aware that she could make false harassment claims, false defamation claims, etc. Hopefully you can get out without running into this kind of BS. The longer you leave things as is, the more exposed you will be. Best is to leave. If she tries to cut you out, do not chase after her (with calls, flowers, etc.) I know someone who almost got criminal charges thrown at him because of a relationship with a narcissist who tried to trap him. She went to the police to try to show that he was the harasser. (Playing the victim is another classic abuse tactic). This is why it is important to start with a support network. You may even need a lawyer -- hopefully not. But get your support network in place right away.
I'm really sorry to hear you are going through this. I have friends who have been there -- I've suffered workplace abuse myself (similar patterns of toxicity) and I coach people who have often suffered from workplace abuse, and some domestic abuse. I know this is really tough. Just know that there is enough love in the world to go around and you are deserving of the best. This woman, on the other hand, is absolutely toxic. Have a big hug and hang in there. Let us know when you get out.
That's some good advice.
But I meant more specific tips on how to learn to identify abusive behavior when you see it, instead of just seeing it as normal because we grew up with it, or because it's just barely socially acceptable.
I've read In Sheep's Clothing by George K. Simon, and When I Say No I Feel Guilty by Manuel J. Smith, and other books which were good to increase my vocabulary about this stuff. I'm looking for more resources that name specific behaviors and describe why they are toxic.
There are all kinds of resources available. Each of us finds different resources helpful in one way or another depending on our personalities, our parent's specific tendencies, and to some extent, I think the time that those resource comes into our lives.
Someone earlier mentioned r/raisedbynarcissists This group is extremely helpful. They can help de-code your mom's behavior for you just like we have been doing for you. They have a slightly different flavor/approach and you may find it meets your needs or it doesn't. Just NO MIL tends to deal with things in a more sarcastic or almost gallows humor way. Raised by narcissists tends to be a little more serious in my experience.
So with that being said: Here are some of my current favorites:
One of my favorites is actually for abusive men, but I read it trying to understand my abusive Sister-in-law, and it helped a lot. I keep going back to it to better understand both my family and in-law dynamics. Abuse is abuse, women just tend to do less overt physical abuse. here is a pdf version. Amazon has hard-copies for sale.
Another good book is Wolves in Sheep's Clothing I need to re-read this one as I have just started really understanding the bigger web that my family's abuse lives in.
Luke 17:3 is a good free resource aimed at daughter's of abusive parents. They have had a few articles that my husband has found to hit very close to home in understanding his family. While many of their articles are pretty secular and helpful in general, this website is specifically Christian. Any religion can be twisted to abuse, so depending on what your religious background is or is not, you may find it helpful to locate resources specific to how those teachings can be used to abuse people.
The important thing is to find and utilize the resources that are most helpful to you.
Thank you. I’m trying to help others do the same.
The book: https://smile.amazon.co.uk/dp/1935166301/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awdb_imm_t1_YO3.Fb4K6YP33
Mar 18, 2021, OP u/Electronic-Map-7603 - Terence McKenna, Unabomber?
I just watched a documentary on Netflix about the Unabomber. He is so eerily similar to McKenna it is crazy. His voice sounds the same, his hermit lifestyle, LSD controversy, views on society. Has anyone else noticed this?
(c/p reply) doctorlao 6 points
> It is noticeable. At least it is to perceptive observation - as you apparently have and hold, to show and tell.
> With both Kazinsky and McKenna the psychedelic influence stands tall in your comparison of them - specifically as a psychological input.
> In terms of output of the psychedelic influence - I suggest your comparison likewise stands well, by a certain "method to the madness" in common:
> Deployment of a 'bomb' to blow up whatever strategic target. The key distinction there being the target zone, by its specific nature and locus.
> Kazinsky's case it was concretely physical and located in the tangible, external world.
> Whereas McKenna's 'bomb site' of choice was that inexorably non-physical psychological point of impact, the mind, located internally - "the invisible landscape;" or "the beyond within" by Sidney Cohen's memorably psychedelic-specific reference. With whatever 'fallout' starting individually, purely within. Then from there, reaching the outer societal world.
> < LSD... caused a snowball effect which turns into an avalanche in no time. It influences the late second millennium, at least in the Western world, to an extent comparable only to the "pill" (see information text "LSD"). Consciousness researchers respectfully spoke of an "atom bomb of the mind" https://archive.is/cmgJO#selection-163.15-163.342 / www.lsd.info/en/alberthofmann.html
> As a matter of their direct primary effects psychologically - plus their secondary societal ones downstream from the 'epicenter' (or 'ground zero') - psychedelics figure not only like an 'atom bomb of the mind' - more specifically, one rigged like a 'depth charge.'
> Rather than 'going off' on contact in the psychological shallows (like your more average everyday type of mind-altering agent) they sink to deepest layers of ze psyche.
> They reach unfathomed depths of the unconscious far below the illuminated 'photic zone' - where the light is good (and observations can be made so easily) - before going off. They explode especially below the 'personality line' defined by functions like affect and cognition, in regions beneath (that underly personality) variously described as 'temperament' or 'disposition.' These are the instinctual inborn foundations of what develops, not into personality (ze psyche's more obvious features readily observable) but rather - character.
> In contrast to other animals species, in the human these instinctual features (as defining criteria of temperament or disposition) are most observable at infancy right out of the gate. Before personality has a chance to develop and come to overlie them as complex emotion and cognitive function (features of the personality not character) gradually become configured developmentally, and significantly dependent on interaction with things that go on in the course of growing up.
> With its obvious symptoms - disordered cognitive and affective perception - psychosis (in various forms) represents a breakdown or disintegration of personality. Accordingly, one need not be a psychologist to notice it (altho "it couldn't hurt" ;-).
> Disturbances underlying the personality zone aren't so obvious or easy to notice. Indeed "character disturbance" can easily escape detection or notice and not only by laymen - even by specialists, not specifically trained in detecting them.
> This is among reasons that concepts of psychosis were founded and well formulated early on in the history of psychology. Whereas the concept of psychopathy took much longer to reach solid ground of evidence and theoretical framework, which it did only as of the 1940s.
> Likewise, it's why the first major book-scale work on psychopathy was titled (by Cleckley) THE MASK OF SANITY (1941) alluding to the relative difficulty of observing character disturbance - its tendency thus to go undetected.
> Similarly, as reflects in the title of a book by George Simon (a current leading specialist in character disorder) IN SHEEPS CLOTHING www.amazon.com/Sheeps-Clothing-Understanding-Dealing-Manipulative/dp/1935166301
> Character disturbance has been taking quite an uptick as of post-1960s decades. It reflects in the title of another book by Simon CHARACTER DISTURBANCE: THE PHENOMENON OF OUR AGE (2011).
> Licensed practice of psychiatry displays a certain conflicted struggle over the clinical reality of character disturbance, which is not only hard to diagnose but resistant to any form of therapy. Indeed incorrigibility tends to be among symptoms, not of psychosis (for which there are effective medications), but of character disorder.
> One sign of this ambivalence within the practice of professional psychiatry (fairly out to sea and lacking a compass with this problem) a dilemma in fact - is its DSM diagnostic manual attempts at re-defining psychopathy (etc) as 'personality disorders' by an entire menagerie of fancy-fussy categorizing terms.
> As remarked by leading expert on psychopathy Robt Hare:
> < psychopaths live and work and prey among us… a "subclinical" psychopath... leaves a path of destruction and pain without a single pang of conscience. Even more worrisome is the fact that at this stage, no one, not even Hare, is quite sure what to do about it > http://archive.is/vYbX#selection-89.311-89.653
> < the idea of psychopathy goes unacknowledged, usually because it's politically incorrect to declare someone to be beyond rehabilitation > http://archive.is/vYbX#selection-77.225-77.359
> Also, inconvenient for practitioners of psychiatry in effect bereft for any therapeutic recourse - not to mention 'wrong' by misconstrued 'moral considerations' of a character disordered milieu to raise a problematic question that doesn't yield an answer 'at present ... at this stage' - 'politically incorrect' (as Hare alludes).
> Hare also cites research demonstrating the devastating exacerbation of psychopathy by psychedelics - especially in a nightmare 'psychiatric' attempt at treating psychopaths by LSD (the "Oak Ridge" affair):
> In regular circumstances [i.e. without the 'help' from psychedelics] ... 60% of high-scoring psychopaths released into society go on to reoffend. But of the ones who’d been through [Barker's] naked LSD encounter sessions, 80% had reoffended. It made them worse. And it was not because it just turned them madder as I first thought. [It was] because it taught them how to fake empathy better and made them more adept criminals. > http://archive.is/SxnlF#selection-1035.0-1051.159
> J. Ronson takes sharp note of the debilitating societal effects, not of psychosis or other such mental maladies, but rather of the most severe extent of character disorder:
> < I'd been thinking for years that perhaps madness is a more powerful engine in our lives and in society than rationality. (T)hen I heard from various psychologists that the consensus of opinion is ... the most powerful madness of all when it comes to shaping society is psychopathy > http://archive.is/SxnlF#selection-963.4-963.285
> In view of the intensifying impact of psychedelics starting as of the 1960s, unfolding in decades since (with their 'depth charge' character-level point of detonation) - the escalation of character disturbance as a major development in psychosocial pathology, with myriad ramifications - might pose the appearance of quite an interesting coincidence.
> Then again, some enchanted occasions, certain things could almost seem (on impression) too coincidental to be coincidence.
> Long story short - it's a striking and sharply drawn comparison you pose. One with perhaps more to it than even you've noticed, however astute your observation.
| Item | Current | Lowest | Reviews |
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| In Sheep's Clothing: Understanding and Dealing wi… | - | - | 4.5/5.0 |
^Item&nbsp;Info | Bot&nbsp;Info | Trigger
| Item | Current | Lowest | Reviews |
|---|---|---|---|
| In Sheep's Clothing: Understanding and Dealing wi… | - | - | 4.5/5.0 |
^Item&nbsp;Info | Bot&nbsp;Info | Trigger
| Item | Current | Lowest | Reviews |
|---|---|---|---|
| In Sheep's Clothing: Understanding and Dealing wi… | - | - | 4.5/5.0 |
^Item&nbsp;Info | Bot&nbsp;Info | Trigger
FURTHER DETAILED PERSPECTIVE - from www.reddit.com/r/terencemckenna/comments/m7ijy2/terence_mckenna_unabomber/
Rather than 'going off' on contact in the psychological shallows (like your more average everyday type of mind-altering agent) - psychedelics sink to the deepest layers of ze psyche.
They reach unfathomed depths of the unconscious far below the illuminated 'photic zone' - where the light is good (and observations can be made so easily) - before going off.
They explode especially below the 'personality line' defined by functions like affect and cognition, in regions beneath, that underly the personality - variously described as 'temperament' or 'disposition.'
These are the instinctual inborn foundations of what develops, not into personality (ze psyche's more obvious features readily observable) but rather into character.
In contrast to other animals species these instinctual features in the human (as defining criteria of temperament or disposition) are most observable at infancy right out of the gate. Before personality has a chance to develop and come to overlie them as complex emotion and cognitive function (features of the personality not character) gradually become configured developmentally, and significantly dependent on interaction with things that go on in the course of growing up.
With its obvious symptoms within disordered cognitive and affective perception, psychosis (in various forms) represents a breakdown or disintegration of personality. Accordingly, one doesn't have to be a psychologist to notice it (although "it couldn't hurt" ;-).
Disturbances underlying the personality zone aren't so obvious or easy to notice. Indeed "character disturbance" can easily escape detection or notice and not only by laymen - even by specialists, not specifically trained in detecting them.
This is among reasons that concepts of psychosis were founded and well formulated early on in the history of psychology. Whereas the concept of psychopathy took much longer to reach solid ground of evidence and theoretical framework, which it did only as of the 1940s.
Likewise this is why the first major book-scale treatment of psychopathy was titled (by Cleckley) THE MASK OF SANITY (1941) alluding to the relative difficulty of observing character disturbance, and its tendency thus to go undetected.
Similarly as reflects in the title of a book by George Simon (a current leading specialist in character disorder) IN SHEEPS CLOTHING www.amazon.com/Sheeps-Clothing-Understanding-Dealing-Manipulative/dp/1935166301
Character disturbance has been taking quite an uptick as of post-1960s decades, as reflects in the title of another book by Simon CHARACTER DISTURBANCE: THE PHENOMENON OF OUR AGE (2011).
Licensed practice of psychiatry displays a certain conflicted struggle over the clinical reality of character disturbance, which is not only hard to diagnose but resistant to any form of therapy. Indeed incorrigibility tends to be among symptoms, not of psychosis (for which there are effective medications), but of character disorder.
One sign of this ambivalence within the practice of professional psychiatry - fairly out to sea and lacking a compass with this problem, a dilemma in fact - is its DSM diagnostic manual attempts at re-defining psychopathy (etc) as 'personality disorders' by an entire menagerie of fancy-fussy categorizing terms.
As remarked by perhaps our leading expert on psychopathy Robert Hare:
> < psychopaths live and work and prey among us… a "subclinical" psychopath... leaves a path of destruction and pain without a single pang of conscience. Even more worrisome is the fact that at this stage, no one, not even Hare, is quite sure what to do about it > http://archive.is/vYbX#selection-89.311-89.653
> < the idea of psychopathy goes unacknowledged, usually because it's politically incorrect to declare someone to be beyond rehabilitation > http://archive.is/vYbX#selection-77.225-77.359
Also inconvenient for practitioners of psychiatry in effect bereft for any therapeutic recourse, not to mention 'wrong' by misconstrued 'moral considerations' of a character disordered milieu to raise a problematic question that doesn't yield an answer 'at present ... at this stage' - 'politically incorrect' (as Hare alludes).
Hare also cites research demonstrating the devastating exacerbation of psychopathy by psychedelics - especially in a nightmare 'psychiatric' attempt at treating psychopaths by LSD (the "Oak Ridge" affair):
> In regular circumstances [i.e. without the 'help' from psychedelics] ... 60% of high-scoring psychopaths released into society go on to reoffend. But of the ones who’d been through [Barker's] naked LSD encounter sessions, 80% had reoffended. It made them worse. And it was not because it just turned them madder as I first thought. [It was] because it taught them how to fake empathy better and made them more adept criminals. > http://archive.is/SxnlF#selection-1035.0-1051.159
J. Ronson takes sharp note of the debilitating effects upon society, not of psychosis or other such mental maladies, but rather of the most severe extent of character disorder:
> I'd been thinking for years that perhaps madness is a more powerful engine in our lives and in society than rationality. (T)hen I heard from various psychologists that the consensus of opinion is ... the most powerful madness of all when it comes to shaping society is psychopathy http://archive.is/SxnlF#selection-963.4-963.285
In view of the intensifying impact of psychedelics starting as of the 1960s and unfolding in decades since, with their 'depth charge' character-level point of impact - the escalation of character disturbance as a major development in psychosocial pathology (with myriad ramifications) might present the appearance of quite an interesting coincidence.
Then again on some enchanted occasions, certain things could almost seem (on impression) too coincidental to be coincidence.
Long story short - it's a striking and sharply drawn comparison you pose. One with perhaps more to it than even you've noticed, however astute your observation.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sheeps-Clothing-Understanding-Dealing-Manipulative/dp/1935166301
There's a chapter in here about having a manipulative child as a parent and how to recognise it.
As far as I know there are no studies that explain the root of the topic, with the exception of a study or two trying to identify nature vs nurture. There may be some books on the topic, but they're unfortunately going to be vague when aimed for a general audience like: https://www.amazon.com/Sheeps-Clothing-Understanding-Dealing-Manipulative/dp/1935166301/ref=sr_1_1?crid=DDV2KT5H3VVW&dchild=1&keywords=a+wolf+in+sheeps+clothing&qid=1609715625&sprefix=a+wolf+in+sheep%2Caps%2C439&sr=8-1 I am unaware of any clinical books on the topic, but one may exist.
To get a deep dive you're going to need to interview therapists who professionally work with narcissists, or lawyers that specialize in narcissists. Thankfully youtube has a lot of this. Eg, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cb9SyOQ2zAU
If you want an antidote to the academic tone that's become common in clinical practice, I recommend looking into the well regarded author and trainer George Simon.
https://www.amazon.com/In-Sheeps-Clothing-Understanding-Manipulative/dp/1935166301
He takes a hard-nosed pragmatic approach to cutting through bullshit to see real results, and to the conclusions we can draw about how the human mind works as a result. He has insights that other, more philosophical approaches have missed in what has come to be called "Personality Disturbance".
His most famous quotation is "It's not that they don't see, it's that they disagree."
Another, similar book with a practical bent is "How Psychotherapy Works" by Joseph Weiss.
https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/how-psychotherapy-works-joseph-weiss/1120284959?ean=9780898625486
Both of these have helped my research, and evoke Professor Peterson's claim that "Clinical Psychology is partly an engineering field".
Here are a few books that helped
Wolves in sheep's clothing https://www.amazon.com/dp/1935166301/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awdb_t1_vtd7AbB3D5CDN
Twisted scriptures
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0310234085/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awdb_t1_Pdd7Ab7QTZ3SY
Subtle power of spiritual abuse
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0764201379/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awdb_t1_gfd7AbKPXEC1M
If you need healing, I suggest counsellor. Get a Christian counsellor if possible.
If you need a healing book there are also good ones out there.
There are truly healthy churches out there with people who encourage, edify and wont get in between you and Jesus. The problem starts at the top and has filtered down through all those he has influenced and taught how to teach orhers. Don't give up on the church, the way it is supposed to be. It takes time. I am still healing too. If you have been there long it takes some undoing.
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