I'm of the opinion that I would rather not have people know if I'm armed if I were to carry my weapon. If I ever have to use my gun, it's only because I've exhausted all other opinions. I rather have it hidden so who ever I'm dealing with isn't put into a heightened state of mind by seeing my weapon.
(An excellent book on this is In the Gravest Extreme. It's a pro-gun book, but isn't gun nut. It argues that your firearm should always be the last thing you use in a dangerous confortation in public.
Then again, I'm blessed to live in an area that is safe enough that I don't need to signal to others that I can defend myself.
Found this to be a great read when starting to carry. https://www.amazon.com/Gravest-Extreme-Firearm-Personal-Protection/dp/0936279001 it's more for mental awareness and handling a firearm than physical technique. It's a bit outdated but easy to get through. You could probably find a PDF as well.
Maybe "lifestyle" can be interpreted in different ways; carrying a gun does require a different, more serious, "mindset" than simply carrying a phone, and it deserves more careful consideration about how to carry it than how you decide to carry your phone.
People are different, but I'll share from my personal experience. When I was coming of age, I had that typical attitude of a young, single man, always thinking I was right, that I would always win, that nobody could touch me, and if anybody tried anything—BOOM!—I'd take care of them. I was treating it irresponsibly, like a casual fling. And that's the wrong attitude for a person carrying around the power of life and death.
By reading Boatman's essay and Massad Ayoob's <em>In the Gravest Extreme</em>, I learned the seriousness of the matter and how I needed to fix my attitude towards carrying. I needed to make changes to my mindset and to my habits. The decision to start carrying a gun led me to really actually "grow up" and stop acting like a kid.
Now married, I can barely convince my wife to come to the range with me, let alone convince her to change her mindset or habits. As you suggest, it is far too much to ask everybody to start out by upending their lifestyle for the sake of carrying a gun. But, in the long term, I think the responsible carrier eventually realizes that he has made changes. And so, I offered the quote to the OP as food for thought: while he shouldn't go tell his wife, "Hey, this is so important that you need to change your entire wardrobe," when she asks for help or expresses frustrations with carrying, he may think about suggesting different types of clothing.
Curious if anyone has an opinion on Massab Ayoob's writings, such as In the Gravest Extreme, and his updated Deadly Force, Understanding Right Defense.
https://www.amazon.com/Gravest-Extreme-Firearm-Personal-Protection/dp/0936279001
https://www.amazon.com/Deadly-Force-Understanding-Right-Defense/dp/1440240612
I recommend you seek out and read the works of a man named Massad Ayoob.
https://www.amazon.com/Gravest-Extreme-Firearm-Personal-Protection/dp/0936279001/
https://www.amazon.com/Straight-Talk-Armed-Defense-Experts/dp/1440247544/
https://www.amazon.com/Deadly-Force-Understanding-Right-Defense/dp/1440240612/
>I guess I was thinking that the cops would show up to such shootings and detain the defensive shooter long enough to run their background and whatever they could do to see if the weapon was on a hot sheet of stolen guns, but beyond taking names and verifying the person lacked a criminal record, they would not arrest a defensive shooter or start any kind of formal charging process.
That makes sense, at least on the face of it.
>now, in a lot of districts they look for any reason to charge a defensive shooter.
I've read this too. It depends heavily on the state and county of one's residence, and a suburban county may treat the matter completely differently than an urban one.
>I've taken multiple CCW classes and they say at least in our metro area the DAs do everything they can to get a defensive shooting into a court room unless its the most obvious circumstances, like a homeowner shooting some guy with a gun at 2 am in their own living room.
There are some American jurisdictions that would like to impress a 'duty to retreat' on a homeowner before a self defense killing. Unsurprisingly, they usually overlap with heavily restricted CCW and notoriously hostile policing.
>At least in my state, the standards for justifiable homicide in a public place are very extreme. I would expect to charged and tried if I shot a car jacker with the DA trying to prove I could have driven away somehow or that the thief was only brandishing the gun.
I suspect this is why several states have implemented 'stand your ground' doctrine' in order to tie the hands of a DA who would prosecute someone who defended themselves in a place they were legally allowed to be.
>This has changed a lot over time, and it's kind of interesting. I went through the back issues of the NRA's "American Rifleman" and read "The Armed Citizen" news blurbs from the 1960s that took place in my state. They had a pharmacist who was robbed at gun point, he ran after the thieves with a gun and opened fire on their car as they drove away, killing one of the occupants. That would NEVER fly now. There were other examples, too, of armed response to criminals that would get tried as homicide now. It would be one thing if these were from the 19th century, but this was the 1960s, and it always surprised me how much public opinion/official response has changed in a relatively short amount of time.
Indeed. I'd point at the modern 'textbook' on the matter, called In the Gravest Extreme which was written by Massad Ayoob in the early 80s. Ayoob is still in high demand as an expert witness on the matter, and has served as both a police officer and a police prosecutor in New Hampshire. He has spoken at length about the legal concept of the 'reasonable person' and how this changes depending on the number and type of assailants one might be facing as well as their location. Ayoob also recommends that people in bad neighborhoods carry a money clip with some numerically inconsequential amount to be handed over as a shooting prevention measure.
>Yeah, I know that, I guess what I'm wondering is how aware your teen/young adult carjacker is of the messaging that appears in the mainstream local news. I'm 100% certain if the daily newspaper headline was "GREEN LIGHT FOR KILLING CARJACKERS" literally none of the people who commit carjackings would know about that headline by noon of the that day. But would they be aware of this news in 2, 3 days? A week? Or is there some huge information gap here where young, disadvantaged and probably minority criminals/potential criminals literally have no awareness of the kind of news reporting that is kind of a permanent fixture of many people's mental space?
I suspect this has to be local. When someone they knew (even in passing) gets killed while committing a crime, it's often enough to turn a first time criminal away from the practice, even if it only dissuades them from confronting potential victims.
I've read in a number of places that criminals are usually more afraid of dealing with an armed citizen than dealing with police. For all of the current hype about police-involved shootings, in a nation of 320 million it's not as common as the news makes it look, and most police would prefer to arrest a suspect than kill him. Still, this depends heavily on jurisdiction, and criminals almost certainly know the lengths that a citizen legally can and can't go to in self defense in their particular area.
Why does the number of shots bother you so much? What number would not? 5? 10?
Have you ever shot a gun IRL? Have you ever shot against a timer? Have you ever had any formal weapons training?
Watch this and count how many times the cops fired and how quickly it happened. Was that too many? https://youtu.be/_ewRhm1e0KU
Perhaps you should read up a bit on this topic before judging. In The Gravest Extreme by Massad Ayoob would be a good start. https://www.amazon.com/Gravest-Extreme-Firearm-Personal-Protection/dp/0936279001
You are so absolutely wrong that it is comical. What are you basing this off of? Because it seriously sounds like the rhetoric of someone that just discovered how cool ARs are. How long have you been shooting? What sort of training have you had? How many types of firearms have you thoroughly used? How old are you?
> most easy to aim
Slowest to aim, the smaller/lighter the arm the faster it can be brought to bear on your target. Easier to aim, sure, but unless you're talking about picking off targets past 25 yards it is an irrelevant stat to use for home defense. And ease of aim isn't unique to an AR, any longarm with the similar sights or optics is just as easy to aim.
> highest capacity
Only a factor if you're going to war. Irrelevant for home defense unless you're talking about an apocalypse where you're fighting off roving bands of marauders. If 6 shots are insufficient for youbfor home defense, then the firearm isn't the problem.
> most reliable weapon out there
This is just objectively false. It is one of the most common complaints when comparing ARs to AKs, and for a reason. The AR's tighter tolerances lead to less margin for error and higher risk of jam than other common military rifles, and it requires more general upkeep because of it. And semi-autos are inherently less relaible than manual actions specifically due to the increased amount of actions occuring and thus creating additional chance of failure. A double action revolver is so preposterously reliable that it is still to this day the only type of firearm that I haven't seen fail to operate.
Dude, Massad Ayoob, legendary firearms instuctor, the president of the 2nd Amendment Foundation, agrees with me. Fuck, his opinion helped form my choice of home defense firearm.
This sounds exactly like what you are told in the book, In the Gravest Extreme.
https://www.amazon.com/Gravest-Extreme-Firearm-Personal-Protection/dp/0936279001
Kids playing with dart guns is not the gravest extreme.
Read a book.
http://www.amazon.com/Gravest-Extreme-Firearm-Personal-Protection/dp/0936279001
This one is called In the Gravest Extreme by Massad Ayoob.
He is an unusual author in that he is at once a firearms expert and trainer, a police officer who has served as a prosecutor and an expert witness in numerous trials, and a gun writer who knows the capabilities of various cartridges in detail.
Secondarily, study the Box of Truth.
The site contains numerous real-world tests of ammunition vs various materials, and should be taken as factual info on what cartridges work best in what situations.
> I want to get my CCW, and I really enjoy shooting at the range, but I'm not sure if I'd actually carry all that often. It seems like an immense responsibility knowing that I'd have a tool that could literally end a life strapped to me, as well as that somebody could disarm/steal it from me.
Good. You should be thinking about this. You should be thinking twice before considering carrying or firing. Go read In the Gravest Extreme and consider carefully if you want that responsibility. And then, if you do, start practicing. Practice carrying. Practice shooting, both at the range and, if possible, at some defensive shooting course. Most defensive shooting situations aren't range-style shooting; they're "Oh, shit! I'd better pull and get this guy who's <3 yards away from me"-style shooting. It's fast, it's stressful, and it's not at all what most people practice. Go learn about the laws in your state, and memorize them. If your state says that "no guns" signs have the force of law, consider carefully what you plan to do in such a situation. Leave your gun in the car? Okay, do you have a way to lock it up out of sight? Bring it with you? Okay, better make sure it's concealed deep, and that you're absolutely okay with getting arrested and charged with an unlawfully-carried weapon. Avoid the business entirely? Okay; make sure you're aware of any political/familial ramifications this may have with the people you're with. Etc. Etc.
> I'm also not sure if I could even conceal the gun I want to buy (Glock 19) without it being painfully obvious.
Concealing most handguns is fairly straightforward, and while I don't have specific experience with the Glock 19, others in this thread have said it isn't a problem. Worst-case scenario, you could always get an easier-concealed gun. Subscribe to /r/gundeals - I see concealable handguns on sale for cheap all the time.
> I'd like to have the license (as well as learn from the class you need to take) for the off occasion I'm going somewhere I'd feel safer carrying. Thoughts?
Being comfortable carrying is really more about repetition and familiarity than just taking a class and suddenly being comfortable with it. You have a lot to learn and it's going to take time. Some of it is physical (the aforementioned range time and practical application classes) and some of it is mental (reading, getting yourself in the right mindset, learning to avoid conflict unless there's no other way, etc.), but there's a lot there. Plan for that, and you'll be all right. I mean it. I know it sounds like a brush-off: "Oh, you'll be fine." But seriously; it really is just getting used to a few things.
While this doesn't directly answer your question, I'd recommend you read this http://www.amazon.com/In-Gravest-Extreme-Personal-Protection/dp/0936279001
Must read for those who own a gun But incidents do happen
1- No Revolver
2- Metal guns are cool and one of the most popular would be a Beretta 92/M9. It is a large 9mm all metal and it is the militaries standard issue. My best advice here would be to go to a gun range and rent various pistols. Some ranges have a deal where you rent a caliber and you can shoot all the guns they have in that caliber.
3- Glocks are ugly but still cool. Glocks are kinda like the Chevy's in that everyone has one and they are cheap to modify.
4- Lots of colors and finishes to choose from.
5- SAO and DOA are different but depending on the manufacturer the exact terms get blurred. For example a S&W model 642 is a DOA but Para USA makes a 1911 clone called a "Light Double Action but it is a SAO/DOA gun depending on exactly how one defines it. http://www.para-usa.com/new/product_pistol.php?id=87
FHN USA makes a FN-P9 that is a DA/SA and many people including me like it. But it's polymer.
6- You have a misconception about shoot throughs. Shoot throughs depend more on the bullet than any other factor besides depth of target. A 9mm vs a .45 all things being equal, the 9mm will penetrate more for it has a higher velocity vs frontal area. A 9mm and .45 will both pass through a person (sometimes) with standard "ball" fmj practice ammunition. Basically ALL handguns (there are ammo exceptions) will pass through multiple walls of the standard sheetrock variety. For instance police have moved away from sub-machine guns in 9mm for AR-15's in .223/5.56 for the rifle round will not penetrate as far for various reasons. The 9mm has historically been a poor man stopper for this reason. The bullet will just pass right on through
Enter hollowpoint ammunition. There is no argument from any expert that one should ALWAYS 100% of the time use a modern hollowpoint bullet in a defensive arm. This alone will mitigate some of the pass through of walls and will serve to stop an attacker faster. The bullet is the weapon and the gun is the delivery system.
7-Don't discount a .45 at all but the problem of $$$ remains and it is true that getting a .22 LR conversion is practical in many ways and fun, many times you can just purchase another .22 handgun for cheaper than the conversion kit and many kits are problematic for function. Not to dissuade you at all from this course but be prepared.
8- practical + safe storage is a continual debate which I don't see being solved until we have a technological change of some sort. There will always be a trade off between reaction time and security and only you can decide for yourself how to implement this in your home. If you're without children you may feel great keeping a gun on the nightstand and then if company and/or children stop by you can lock it away then.
What's that leave me in terms of reliable and well known options? There are too many to list here for there are 250 models that fit your requirements including used guns. Don't gloss over used for they will still work great and save you a buck or two. Plus some come with a great story. Go to a gun range and just ask to "May I handle that gun" or firearm. What fits my hand great may feel soso in your hand and that is the main requirement above all others, comfort(maybe robustness is 1st but we can debate that later).
YOU NEED TO GET THESE BOOKS IN ORDER OF IMPORTANCE: MUST MUST MUST----->http://www.amazon.com/In-Gravest-Extreme-Personal-Protection/dp/0936279001/ref=la_B001H9VYZS_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1341888327&sr=1-1
Really great one here and don't think because it says concealed carry on the cover means it's not for you, this book is: http://www.amazon.com/The-Digest-Book-Concealed-Carry/dp/0896896110/ref=la_B001H9VYZS_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1341888327&sr=1-2
Decent one after you know more: http://www.amazon.com/Stressfire-Vol-Gunfighting-Police-Techniques/dp/0936279036/ref=la_B001H9VYZS_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1341888327&sr=1-4
And lastly go to "Thehighroad.us". This is an excellent forum with good general knowledge. And get a gun magazine like guns and ammo. IT has reviews and gives a great overview of what your getting yourself into. Good luck.
PS there are shooting pistol competitions all over the country. Look up IPSC, USPSA, and IPSC for a club around you and go.
If you haven't heard of Massad Ayoob, he has a book that should be required reading for gun owners.
i also recommend these books to help you figure CCW out. However I hope you will take my last bit of advice to heart.
Do not kid yourself about carrying a large gun if you have the slightest doubt that you wont do it. I personally have a snub nose and a g30 for when I don't feel like carrying my 21. And it happens quite a bit. Just going to the gas station for a pop can quickly turn bad. But Im not going to spend 10 minuets gearing up for an 8 minuet trip. I know that, and Im ok with it. It takes ALOT of personal discipline to carry such a big gun. Its uncomfortable at times, its harder to travel, it limits the wardrobe, it can make hugs very awkward if your not used to it, etc. Please dont waste your money on a gun that you wont carry. By all means get the 30. I own one, they're great! You can LEARN to overcome its difficulties and short comings much easier than you can learn to always put on your beast no matter what.
let me know if you have any questions comments or concerns
Some additional free sources of info are
defensivecarry.com and ar15.com under handguns and carry issues.
Get and read a copy of In the Gravest Extreme. The hardware section is dated but the discussion on the use of lethal force still applies.
If you want some useful, tried-and-tested info about CCW, search on YouTube for instructional videos from a gentleman named Massad Ayoob. He also wrote the definitive (albeit somewhat dated now) work on the subject: In The Gravest Extreme. It's pretty heavy stuff, but then again so is pulling the trigger while aiming at another human.
For instance, in the above mentioned example where you have consumed alcohol and need to use a firearm in self-defense, in most places this will very likely "buy you some time", and not in a good way. Local laws differ, and the extent to which you might bend them is up to you, but I'd consider Massad's word to be gospel second only to a local attorney who specializes in this kind of casework. Hope this helps you in your decision-making.
It's what is taught in ccw classes. Read a book about gun training or CC http://www.amazon.com/In-Gravest-Extreme-Personal-Protection/dp/0936279001/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top
I know people are recommending books in these replies, and I've got another one that might help your Mom understand why it is worth the trouble of getting a real gun, even up in Canada.
In the Gravest Extreme: The Role of the Firearm in Personal Protection, by Massad Ayoob.
It is focused on the mental aspects of using a firearm for protection. It builds the case for trying to avoid violence if at all possible, but emphasizes the importance of being ready, willing, and able to protect your life and presents the firearm as the most effective way to do that.
No. I am saying if you intend to evade a murder charge that stems from a road rage incident, you had better be pure as the driven snow. A D/A can, and in some states almost always will, charge someone who caps another driver. Raising bail, hiring a defense team, and living in fear of conviction for months and years - even if you're acquitted - seems like a real pain in the ass for a momentary surge of testosterone.
BTW, spend some quality time with google if you think civil litigation post-shooting is a joke.
I strongly suggest reading "In the Gravest Extreme" by Massad Ayoob for anyone who carries a gun.