King, Warrior, Magician, Lover
It talks about the 4 archetypes of masculinity, the importance of rituals from boyhood to manhood, and the immature versions of each masculine archetype during the two stages ( boyhood and manhood ).
The main take away is that "in the present crisis in masculinity we do not need, as some feminists are saying, less masculine power. We need more masculine power. But we need more of the mature masculine." The end result is that build up these archetypes in ourselves.
It helped support my individuality and how to overcome some of my insecurities. Some being understanding that as much as I like boxing I'm considerate enough to not punch as hard as I could ( Warrior and Magician ) to silly things like being okay to order fruity drinks ( Lover ).
There's tons more in the book for its size. It's my number 1 recommendation every time.
Some people won't like that there are high standards for finding our place in society for each gender. Thing is, when you do live up to them, you flourish. This book summarized things really well for me:
King, Warrior, Magician, Lover: Rediscovering the Archetypes of the Mature Masculine https://www.amazon.com/dp/0062506064/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_glt_i_FHNHFANKTYPXAJXA5FM2
I think this might have blown up because the majority of us want there to be equality, love and goodwill between gender and sexes, despite what the talking heads and polls say.
I think a lot of women in this and the last generation have had a real disconnect with their fathers. There is a huge hole in there minds and hearts about what it means to be a "strong" man and get strong male support. Men need to develop more paternal and kingly values and behaviors and set better examples to combat true toxic masculinity and underdeveloped childish masculinity.
The issue is of course the "nice guy" stigma that can often get attached to it. Good men need to balance those forces better. Being a nice guy with an edge. Mastering the energy of the bad boy that attracts females without the actual maladaptive traits that too often come with an alpha type males.
There is a great book called "King, Warrior, Magician, Lover: Rediscovering the Archetypes of Mature Masculine." I think it should be required reading for men globally. It helps men to understand the dimensions of the masculine self and how one goes both right and wrong in manifesting those energies.
Flipping or splitting is not growth. Some people "snap" between opposites but that's just your suppressed archetype trying to assert itself. I recommend this book, though it is a little bit dated. Your childhood archetypes are rebelling, which is natural. Now it's time to start forming adult archetypes.
Jumping onto the book recommendations bandwagon...
King, Warrior, Magician, Lover by Robert Moore and Douglas Gillette
My psychologist had me read this at the beginning of our time together. The primary takeaway is an understanding that there are are mature, overactive-immature, and shadow-immature ways of expressing each of the four parts of your personality.
In my experience, when people make statements like your mom's made, about hating all men, they hate when men act in immature ways, but they're also failing to realize that there are mature ways for men to express ALL parts of their personality.
Lol thanks for posting this before me.
For anyone who's interested,
Even though there have been a few videos on why Luffy is a good leader, him being worthy of the mantle of king has never been explored to the same extent.
In this analysis video, using the book <em>King, Warrior, Magician, Lover</em> by Robert Moore and Douglas Gillette I identify the qualities that Luffy possesses and how Oda has written Luffy to be the peak of masculinity within the One Piece world.
Do give it a watch if you're interested!
I personally would argue a different logic. But that isn’t to say your direction is wrong. In the end I believe we’d have the same understanding, but using different syntax. It also seems you’re really centered around duality where there’s a perfection and it’s anthesis. Where the archetypes are more of a spectrum. But again, to me, both are trying to explain the same phenomena. It all just depends on how you shape the argument.
Have you read “King Warrior Magician Loved”? Which directly dives into the spectrum of each archetype? That might help to see where your idea of forms fit in. (Amazon link at end)
Fun fact: did you know Plato’s forms might have been an inhibiting reason why it took so long for science to discover evolution?
King, Warrior, Magician, Lover: Rediscovering the Archetypes of the Mature Masculine https://www.amazon.com/dp/0062506064/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_ZeIIDbF5DA2J8
Carl Jung.. between him and Siggy Freud they built the foundation of modern psychology; Jung was Freud's student, and is more steeped in symbolism, archetypes, and exploring the collective unconscious through dreams, myth, and projections of masculine/feminine energies which both sexes carry with them, undeveloped, controlled by our 'shadow' selves, or repressed darker sides that control our behaviours through unconscious needs, and desires which are created in our infancy and formative years. Here's a good place to start, in my opinion. https://www.amazon.ca/King-Warrior-Magician-Lover-Rediscovering/dp/0062506064/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1503876553&sr=8-1&keywords=warrior+magician+king+lover
Ive been reading you posts and you should really check out the book I mentioned. http://www.amazon.com/King-Warrior-Magician-Lover-Rediscovering/dp/0062506064
There have been plenty of studies that show women dont handle high pressure situations as well as men. They dont crave the responsibility and stress like men do. That's why by default men have to be leaders in the world. But Being a GOOD leader isn't a selfish act like most feminists see it. It is one of the most selfless acts, it is an act born from sacrifice. It means staying up late working so you and your own can eat better, it means making necessary decisions that are not immediately popular, it can mean something as simple as picking where to eat. I see this all the time, do you know why women defer to you always about this? Because its such a primitive instinct to be fed. They trust your judgment and feel safe around you, they know you will do the right thing. It is a badge of honor.
It is outside the scope of this conversation but in this book, most of the behavior in this sub would be described as being stuck in the "lover" phase.
Which is actually fine, to an extent. When you are very young this is appropriate.
But you are meant to progress eventually to the "king" phase, and that is where a fair few of the posters here fall down. They define being alpha entirely by your relationship with women, which some people here don't realize is actually very much a beta trait.
Hey Kyle, /u/jackboy93 pretty much hit the nail on the head. I recommend you check out the book King, Warrior, Magician, Lover. The book touches on what a fully formed man looks like and how this interacts with his childhood personality. When you say you feel like a child, this book gets into this and you are not alone.
When it comes to your ex-girlfriend, we've all been there. Of course it's going to fuck you up, but how you choose to move on is 100% on you. You need to forgive her and forgive yourself in order to move on. Focus on being present. Whether that's meditation, working out, etc. find some way to be mindful of the moment.
I've personally found success with /r/keto but it's not for everyone. Check it out if you are interested in a diet plan, but at the end of day, calories in minus calories out.
Finally, it might be worthwhile considering professional therapy. That's what helped me after my bad break-up. It gives you perspective. Just like you need a teacher for math, a trainer for the gym, don't let your mental health deteriorate.
You can do this, Kyle. You are not alone and you had the strength to write this and the introspection to realize what was occurring. Set some small goals and stick to them, no matter what. When you have to say NO to something because you are on a mission, you will build your self-confidence and worth. Take a daily walk, drink some water daily, anything to get you going. Kyle, you got this.
> Step by step, walk the thousand-mile road.
> Today is victory over yourself of yesterday; tomorrow is your victory over lesser men.
I went through something similar. Last year, for about a semester of school, I was smoking by myself. It was nice to be high with my own thoughts. I started critiquing things, but mostly myself. I'd think about other things, too. Surf the web, play videogames, but my mind would always wander about myself again and how I can improve my personality or shortcomings. But I wouldn't act on it, pitied myself, and lowered my already low self esteem and eventually I got depressed.
After much soul searching, I learned that I may have ADHD-I, with Social Anxiety. But I was in such a lost state in between. Since then I've been picking myself up and working on my self. I've read <em>King, Warrior, Magician, Lover</em> by Robert Moore and Douglas Gillette. It's taught me a lot about myself and what direction I want to lead my life. I'm probably going to read it again, just because I need reinspiration.
The point is that you're beginning understanding yourself. I don't believe you need to check yourself in to a mental institute, just listen to what everyone else is saying. See a therapist, if you can afford it (I wish I could). Take action, read what you can about what you may have and learn to live with it or combat it. Anything, as long as you don't wallow in self pity like I did.
But the most important thing you can do is take action.
tl;dr I went through something similar and picking myself up. It's important that you take action to help yourself
The book itself it a hack-job hit piece on men, and Ben Sixsmith's review – which is what's linked – is a great takedown of Plank's "work."
If anyone is interested in further reading regarding actual masculinity and what men face today, here's a small reading list:
I may even make a separate post for this because it's very important to me. I am in the middle of researching and writing a book that, I hope, does what Plank's drivel claimed to do. The materials here are just a few selections I've come across in my research. Maybe I can elaborate more on my work if I make a more comprehensive 'recommended reading' post re: masculinity. I'd love to see more discussion around this as I believe it's exactly the kind of thing to tackle in a community like this.
Constitutional. Chad's just going to catch a dozen STDs and die in a bar fight before he's 30, like the Bourbons did.
I'd be happiest with a system that was close to the US, but with a king instead of a president and a bit more decentralization of power. But I think that even a crowned republic is better than an uncrowned one; Jung believed implicitly, Lewis explicitly, that a country is happiest with a king.
There's a great book about "growing up with an immature mentality". It was written in the 70s and still so relevant: https://www.amazon.fr/King-Warrior-Magician-Lover-Rediscovering/dp/0062506064. Let me know if you'd like a TL;DR :-)
Sure, here's a few off the top of my head.
I read <em>King, Warrior, Magician, Lover</em> a few months back and really enjoyed it. (The title is the list of 4 Jungian masculine archetypes that they cover — 1 per chapter, plus a few chapters around them about how they interplay/integrate.)
Someone saw me reading that one in a coffeeshop and told me about Iron John, which I picked up and started reading soon after. It's much denser and more linear, so I've put it down for the moment. But I liked it, and I'd like to finish it at some point.
In a somewhat similar vein, I read Hero with a Thousand Faces a few years ago and enjoyed that one too. He's not as focused on Jung purely; he takes a more anthropological approach — but in a funny way, you could consider that more data-driven, too. It's also more broadly applicable if you happen to have a related job (e.g., sales, marketing, management, politics, etc).
This suggests to me: If we're talking about Gender Identity as Fursona, let's talk about your human Fursonas as the Jungian archetypes with which you identify, which are then dependent upon your gender. Warning: the goofy, mystical, Campbell-esque bits of Jungian psychology are in this comment.
I'm thinking primarily of the ideas in this book which is well summarized in this series of blog posts and all boils down to this diagram. TLDR: The mature masculine archetypes are those of the King (who rules), the Warrior (who fights), the Magician (who knows), and the Lover (who...loves). Each has two Aristotelian failed or "shadow" stages of development, a too-strict King is a Tyrant who hurts those he rules and a too-loose King is a Weakling who allows those he rules to hurt themselves, only by reaching a balance can a Man be truly in touch with being a True King, a David or an Arthur rather than a Herod or a roi-fait-neant. The fully developed mature Man is one who has integrated all of these aspects of his personality fully, he is the King to his family when they need discipline, ready to be the Warrior when they need someone to defend them, the Magician when they need something fixed, the Lover to his wife. When I picture my father in a loving manner, that is what I picture.
So often it is natural to come to the conclusion that the modal person is Agender or NonBinary by the taxonomy provided by trans theory, because most humans either have no sense of their gender or they have a mixed sense of gender, they are neither a purely-masculine cross between Don Draper and The Rock, nor are they are some purely Feminine Marilyn Monroe character. This strikes me as accurate, on any given day or at any given minute, I don't think of myself as a man in some cosmic sense. I don't male-ly knock on the door in a masculine manner while my genitals jauntily swing. I have a lot of objectively masculine traits, but plenty that people would find feminine. The description of trans-men that they feel male in some divine way feels, odd to me, off, like it doesn't describe me or my life experience. I never go around identifying as a man!
But considered through the Jungian lens, it starts to make sense to me. I don't feel "Masculinity" flow through me, but I feel the sense of being like The King when I give orders at work, or The Magician when someone asks me for help with something. Those masculine archetypes, that I and all men carry within us, are probably closer to your "Fursona" analogy. There are times when I, when most men, are acting out and identifying with these archetypes, and to the extent that the archetypes are gendered that is closer to a gender identity than any general feeling of Maleness I work with day to day.
Men be getting fucked over, women be getting fucked over. Everyone gets fucked over by ideals imposed on them in some way, I don't think it's a competition. Warped hyper-masculinity has negative effects on men and women, calling everything you see toxic masculinity is just as counterproductive. I'm going off topic but perceptions and views of what masculinity is in the West and other countries have gotten really weird lately and lead to a lot of negative side effects for both genders, this is a good book that tries to make sense of the "ideal" masculine: https://www.amazon.com/King-Warrior-Magician-Lover-Rediscovering/dp/0062506064
And it helped me a lot with getting the brainrot out of my head and putting masculine gender issues and ideas of masculinity and how they relate to the world into perspective. Important to explore new ideas of what the ideal masculine might mean and helps understand what masculinity is to everyone else in the world. Interesting tings
Wenn du wirklich zum Mann werden willst, dann das.
1) Emotional intelligence, 2) health, and 3) wealth.
Build yourself in those directions. Get over any judgements you may have about them.
If you're able to navigate your own emotional issues with intelligence, you can help her navigate hers. That's what spiritual/woo-woo people call "divine masculine" consciousness. It's part-and-parcel with Jung's concept of the individuation process, and it entails moving through and integrating a series of archetypes -- see:
"King, Warrior, Magician, Lover"
It does create a healthy and functional polarity, where as the masculine, you can guide her through difficult experiences and toward becoming "more than who you are", as JP says. This creates and sustains attraction, of course, because it is intimate and invaluable.
2) There is a sexual selection process that is hardwired into us and being in top shape is not necessary, but there is a certain threshold which I simply call "good enough" that, once you pass it, changes the numbers game (female interest increases notably).
3) Being financially stable (or better: abundant) is sexy for obvious reasons. Not only because you can provide, but because it implies many other things that make you a desirable -- either you've made it, or you were born into a good support network.
These are factors that many men resent, but honestly, you can't change it. As Peterson says "you have to assume it's your problem."
This book offers mentorship/self-help for men without misogyny.
King, Warrior, Magician, Lover: Rediscovering the Archetypes of the Mature Masculine https://www.amazon.com/dp/0062506064/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_KQ39DZ37QRHT560Y5BV3
I would like to add King, Warrior, Magician, Lover to this list.
Looks like they partially ripped off--I mean, they were inspired by King Warrior Magician Lover.
I’m not sure I understand the question. Do you mean to say over-agreeable people place too much value on intimate relationships? Maybe. Oneitis is a somewhat vague, high level personality problem and agreeableness is a technical, low level dimension of personality. This makes it hard to see a simple, causal relationship between the two
Oneitis can be thought of as a symptom to a deeper problem explained by Gillette and Moore’s masculine archetypes. The immature Lover archetype, which can be thought of as the masculine Self as he relates to women, has two shadow sides: the mama’s boy and the dreamer. A man with oneitis might be channeling one or both of these forms.
If he is channeling the mama’s boy, he has failed to separate the divine Feminine from the women in his life. In other words, he puts the pussy on a pedestal (which is an oversimplification but it gets the gist of the problem). The dreamer, on the other hand, is so possessed by the Feminine as a myth that he is unable to tether himself to reality. He’d rather read a romance novel or watch porn than develop actual romantic relationships. He dreams about the perfect woman and avoids real women lest they shatter the fantasy in his head.
I'm reading a book right now called "King, Warrior, Magician, Lover: Rediscovering the Archetypes of the Mature Masculine." link: https://www.amazon.com/King-Warrior-Magician-Lover-Rediscovering/dp/0062506064
One of the more interesting parts has been the discussion of the warrior archetype, or the "inner warrior" which is posed as one of the major archetypes of the male psyche.
In my own thinking, I've decided that the "inner warrior" is really more of a gender neutral thing, and the actions of this girlfriend here totally line up with that. I love what she did here.
Can you tell me something more about that Spiritism doctrine? I never heard of it before.
And regarding the Archetypes, the term originates from ancient Greece (archein, which means "original or old"; and typos, which means "pattern, model or type) it's a concept that was extensively explored by the psychoanalyst Carl Jung, and I suggest you look into some of his works on that topic if you're interested. The term is used to describe "primordial images" that are deeply routed in every human's (and the collective) subconsciousness. But, they can also be seen as models(blueprints) for people, stories, events, etc.
>the original pattern or model from which all things of the same kind are copied or on which they are based; a model or first form; prototype. - Source
It's a very symbolic term and as such it seems to be very missunderstood, since our modern society tends to understand everything literally. I haven't really met many people who heard or understood much about the concept.
You have probably heard of some of his archetypes. The most famous and major 4 that we encounter in our human psyche are:
The Self - This archetype is formed during the individuation of a person and it represents the unification of the unconcsiousness and concsiousness of an individual
The Shadow - This shadow is often seen as the darker part of the psyche. It consists of our repressed ideas, emotions, thoughts and desires.
The Anima/Animus - This archetype is the feminine image of the male psyche (Anima), or the male image of feminine psyche (Animus). This is the
The Persona - The persona represents the image we present to other people, it's how we present ourselves to the world
Some other arcetypes that you will encounter are: The father, the Mother, the Hero, the Child, the Wise man and the Trickster. If you want to see a list of the 12 major archyetypes of Carl Jung, take a look here.
There's also the concept of the journey archetype. And the most common is the archetype of the Hero's Journey (monomyth). This was discovered by Joseph Campbell, who analyzed the myths and stories in our world and noticed that in every story there is a main character (the Hero) who goes through a journey. And in every myth the journey is the same, he lay out the journey in his famous work "The Hero with a thousand faces". Here's a good summary of this. And you should also take a look at this video.
This can also be applied to religions, and one of the most famous examples was laid out in the documentary Zeitgeist, where they compared Christianity with hundreds of different world religions and found many similarities.
Lastly, there are also the 4 archetypes of the masculine. While this might not be very popular in our modern feminised society, I still think that this topic is a must know for every man. These "masculine" archetypes have been defined by the Jungian psychoanalys Robert Moore and together with Douglas Gillette he wrote a series of books on this topic. The series is called "King, Warrior, Magician, Lover" and it's an introduction to the other 4 books in the series: The King within, The Warrior within, The Magican within and The Lover within.
While reading the series, I highly suggest you keep an open mind and understand that these are very symbolic books. Don't take them literally!
If you don't have time to read them all, then check out this article and the huge series of blog posts by Art of Manliness.
If you can wrap your head around these archetypes, then they will help you understand the world better and I found that it's also a good tool to use during creative pursuits. I got interested in it a half year ago and spent a couple months reading all these books and articles on the topic. So, if you ever decide to study them, then use these resources I gave you!
I feel like Mega Man would work only if they took noted from Alita in terms of action and characterization.
For those who have complaints about Alita, the movie is great considering it took the OVA's and Mangas pacing and packed it into the movie as faithful as possible. It took most of the emotional beats and spirit of the source material and emphasized the characters nicely.
Having Mega Man take a similar approach to the ever growing child like yet positive can-do-ness that Alita has would make him an easier character to take. Dr. Light takes a more old wise man role in the Hero's Journey, and Wiley being this shadow version of Light (Shadow Magician archetype from King, Warrior, Magician, Lover Rediscovering the Archetypes of the Mature Masculine by Douglas Gillette and Robert L. Moore.)
And then add a tragic foil to Megaman that is Protoman and you have your self a very solid story for families about Fathers and Sons, becoming a real boy, and adapting to one's reality as well as what defines the call of duty.
Thanks for attending my ted talk. Please direct me to the nearest movie writing nerd subreddit.