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No country has ever been communist. Communism is a stateless and classless society that is extremely decentralized. That has never happened. His policies led to millons of deaths (sparrows), and that increase is something all capitalist countries experience.
Here, I recommend learning:
Your interpretation of capitalism is colored in your own bias. You call it getting rich at the expense of others. Where is that in the definition? You are guilty of your own complaints.
Private ownership inherently means the private citizen can own and operate property and capital. Yes liberalism is a political philosophy. Both raised the status of the individual. You are trying to split hairs and argue semantics rather than the substance and at this point is getting annoying and tiresome.
Most people died of disease and famine throughout human history. This decreased in the late 19 century into the 20th century. It accelerated under Maoist control. When the leaves on the trees are picked bare and citizens eat dirt in your major cities, you have done something very wrong. You can disagree about deaths under Maoist China, but when it comes from the lips of people I know that lived through it; it is now outside the realm of propaganda.
I would recommend this book by historian Jung Chang who was part of the Red Guard. https://www.amazon.com/Mao-Story-Jung-Chang/dp/0679746323
Government control and oppression under the CCP did not start last year. It’s been baked into the pie since the Long March. Look to North Korea and that China is completely aware of what goes on. See Yeonmi Park’s interview with Joe Rogan.
Capitalism allows for the greatest mobility of wealth and has lead to the highest class mobility. Capitalist systems allows for the greater expansion of the economy and use of human ingenuity by allowing individuals to market their skills and ideas. The greater GDP gains allows for greater tax revenue which allows for generous social programs. Or god forbid private charity.
During the 40s-70s China did export tons of grain to Eastern Europe and Africa at rock bottom prices. Mao did this for political clot and prestige, and even did so during famine. His exportation of grain to other countries caused hundreds of thousands of deaths in China because instead of feeding his own people he sent the food elsewhere. Even when attempting charity communist nations kill their own people. Read this book for more info.
thanks! Going to the bookstore today!
FYI if anyone is looking for this book, 15 bux on amazon! (still going to bookstore today though)
<<Mao caused the greatest famine in history by exporting food to Russia to buy nuclear and arms industries: 38 million people were starved and slave-driven to death in 1958-61. Mao knew exactly what was happening, saying: "half of China may well have to die.">> http://www.amazon.com/Mao-Story-Jung-Chang/dp/0679746323/
(I don't intend this quote as an end to the argument, after all, the quote could be fake, the book mentioned could be propaganda in itself etc. Take it merely as an angle worth considering and a hook for further research.)
Darn! Socialism only would’ve worked if those big dumb Americans hadn’t gotten in the way 🤔
Also: I never said the US hasn’t committed atrocities. That’s obviously completely untrue. I also never said we haven’t ever used propaganda - which is untrue (albeit rare). Anyways here’s some of those books I seriously feel you should read. I’m welcome to any suggestions as well:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0679746323/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_A31M952AHMZK9YDGQYRT
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0060935502/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_RE66Z341NE406YRHHFJ7
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0061706434/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_4R25GRQARY2N43PMRBY6
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1843430851/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_PZT6Q56B12WCEK8MS9FY
>It’s literally the same guy. Citing a different second level source that cites the same faulty first level source doesn’t make your point.
It's not a faulty first level source.
>It shouldn’t be that hard to find a reputable source yet you’re struggling.
I'm not. Try not denying genocide.
>All I’m asking is for good sources
References
BBC News (2000, April 6). Flashback 1984: portrait of a famine. Retrieved May 7, 2006, from http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/703958.stm
Chang, Jung, & Halliday, Jon (2005). <em>Mao: the unknown story</em> (1st American ed.). New York: Alfred A Knopf.
Courtois, S., Werth, N., Panne, J., Paczkowski, A., Bartosek, K., & Margolin, J. (1999). <em>The black book of Communism: crimes, terror, repression</em>. United States: Harvard University Press.
Rummel, R. J. (1994). <em>Death by government</em>. New Brunswick, NJ: Transaction Publishers.
Rummel, R. J. (1996). <em>Lethal politics: Soviet genocide and mass murder since 1917</em> (1st paperback ed.). New Brunswick, NJ: Transaction Publishers.
Rummel, R. J. (2005, November 20). Reevaluating China's democide to be 73,000,000. Retrieved April 5, 2006, from ~~http://freedomspeace.blogspot.com/2005/11/reevaluating-chinas-democide-to-be.html~~ (see https://web.archive.org/web/20051215110939/http://freedomspeace.blogspot.com/2005/11/reevaluating-chinas-democide-to-be.html).
Rummel, R. J. (1997). Statistics of democide: genocide and mass murder since 1900. Charlottesville, Virginia: Transaction Publishers.
U.S. Committee for Human Rights in North Korea (2006). Failure to protect: a call for the UN Security Council to act in North Korea. United States: DLA Piper.
Young, Lance S. (1991). Mozambique's sixteen-year bloody civil war. Retrieved November 1, 2006, from http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1991/YLS.htm
>without claims that are panned by the academic community.
They're not. I can show you an academic who denies the holocaust:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faurisson_affair
It doesn't make a holocaust denier, or you, not a beta.
Great company you seem to keep, lol.
>And lol the same people who wrote one of the books came out saying it was inaccurate.
Rummel did not write The Black Book of Communism, you complete and utter lying genocide denier.
Lol, how beta can you get?
Lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie. That's all you can seem to do.
Want to try a different approach to your genocide denial?
149,469,610 and counting.
You can not deny the truth. You only look abhorrent and beta when you deny genocide like a clown.
Karma's going to be a bitch to you.
> Literally no who has studied Soviet and Maoist history agrees with you.
Everyone agrees socialism had a high death toll. The low bid is 25 million, and that's by guys who can't stop talking about the Отечество.
Solzhenitsyn agrees with me.
Former anarcho-Maoist activist Stephane Courtois wrote the Black Book of Communism.
RJ Rummel agrees with me--he was nominated for the Nobel prize for calculating the humans dead. Also see: Power Kills.
History channel agrees with me.
Great video from Dr. Alan Charles Kors.
Khrushchev himself agrees with me.
>It's clear from your vague allusion to 'correlation' that you don't have any in-depth argument that isn't 'socialist policies = starvation'.
I openly recognize the correlative nature of my argument. A lot of human beings died at the same time as a lot of 'socialism' was going on around them. It could have happened to any ideology that centralizes power and takes property rights away.
>deaths by poverty under capitalist nations, the number would be 900 million
Number has been totally debunked. My baby niece could debunk that number. No rational person could ignore the rates of decline in capitalist vs. socialist populations. This information is frequently culled from the census data of the socialist countries, who have no reason to lie to their own bureaucracy. Ivo Vegter:
"Unlike the totalitarian repression of communist regimes, deaths due to lack of clean drinking water, hunger, or disease are not deliberate crimes against civilian populations. The Black Book only counts crimes and massacres in communist countries, and not the death toll attributable to material conditions. If it did, it would have reached a far higher total than 100-odd million."
In short the Soviet Union sent agents to China to spread communism, like it did to most of the world. They funded many pro communist clubs at universities because it was often students who protested and started revolutions. This is where Mao got his start.
In the early 20th century China was technically a republic, but much of the country was ruled by warlords. The soviet union invited many of the country's leaders and their families to study in Russia. Chang Kai Shek, the head of the Natialist party, who would become President of China, sent his son. China wouldn't allow the family to return and used this leverage to pressure the politicians not to clamp down on the communist party. This is how Mao was able to survive the early years.
When WWII started the Russians were a busy with the Nazis in Europe so they weren't able to send as much funding to the Chinese. This suited Mao just fine as he waited for the Nationalist government to wear down the Chinese army attacking the Japanese. Only near the end of the war Zhu De (head of the communist armies) took the army into battle against the Japanese. At this point the National army was whittled down from a 36:1 to a 4:1 advantage over the communists. This was enough for the communists to win the civil war in 1949 with renewed military supplies from the Russians and help from America.
China never formed a union with Russia because Mao wanted to take over the world. Initially Mao was afraid of Stalin so he didn't dare do anything directly against the Soviets. After Stalin's death in 1953 you see China launch their wars of conquest in Asia. The result of this was doubling their territory. Mao thought Khrushchev was weak so he launched an invasion of the Soviet Union in the Sino-Soviet border conflict in 1969. China was routed and quickly stopped the invasion.
The result of this was Mao decided to cozy up to the US as a way to keep Russia from attacking.
A great book on this is Mao: The Unknown Story. One of the best researched books I've ever read on the rise of communism is China and the horrors people faced there.
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