You might appreciate this. It's basically a summary of the current scientific research on women's mating preferences, written in layman's terms by one of the evolutionary psychologists whom TRP frequently cites. It cites all of its scientific sources.
There's a reason why evolutionary psychologists and social science researchers don't endorse TRP: because it's pseudoscience.
"what would u do if u were me?"
That's a cool way to end your post and start mine, I'm 33 and reading your post i see myself in you when i was around your age (I've never written anything so boomer sounding before in my life haha). I have alot of thoughts, but i want to abbreviate them because everyone hates walls of text, but that doesn't mean i don't care, k?
"the worst part about talking to girls is when the conversation somehow leads into me having to share that ive never had a gf"
Regardless of what high school and Hollywood wants you to think, i think this is super common. My first serious relationship was at 30 years old or so, everyone is stupid and immature when you're a teenager, relationships at your age and below are pretty shallow. It doesn't mean you can't have a girlfriend your age, it just means that you shouldn't be embarrassed or sweat the fact you haven't had one before. A lot of people lie to appear cool, you should also remember that the vast majority of girls your age don't have too much experience in the topic either, the female virgin incel girls also exist, you most likely know some of them even if you don't know that aspect about them.
"highschool was awful, the absolute worst.... i wasnt very interested in any of the girls in my school, there were many times actually that really attractive girls in my grade had hit on me; but my self worth/esteem/confidence was so low that i always thought they were doing it just to fuck with me"
This is super common, high school can suck so much for alot of people, i was the super emo depressed kind of guy back in the day haha. I was also never interested in most girls in HS or College and ignored everything about them, in perspective i was just an angry asshole and not a good classmate or potential bf.
Everything you write to this point shows me enough to see what the problem is, remember where i wrote that back in the day i was a shitty angry guy? Remember that because its important.
I think its perfect that you play as a support main in League because i have the perfect analogy; good support mains know that it takes two to tango. If you play Thresh and you land a great hook followed by a fantastic flay you setup your adc to land their damage and get a double kill in lane. When this goes right everyone feels great, high fives each other and then carry the game, kiss and ride into the sunset. But what happens when you land all your cc on Thresh and your adc ignores it? Or its just a bait and the enemy jungle scarecrows your ass or your adc flashes into their tower and ints or you dc at the worst time possible and you both die, or you forget to throw ignite or.... a gajillion other things that dont make the play work. When that happens you both get tilted into the face of the earth, eat each other alive and .
Same as in league, same as in life. If you're a sad, bitter guy you're semi tilted and not playing your best, you start roaming out of spite and let your adc die in lane. When you're not living your best life people notice and want to gtfo. If you start talking to girls thinking they're shitty bronze noobs you already start things with a chip on your shoulder, then they notice that you're acting like a depressed boring dude and rightfully think they should dodge the lobby.
The cure itself to virginitis is easy in concept, its to balance your life by achieving your goals, being happy and becoming an awesome, non asshole Chad.
Dr K has several fantastic, super helpful videos about the topic i highly reccomend watching, but the best, most hands on, most helpful thing i've read on the topic of getting a girlfriend is Mate by Tucker Max and Dr Geoffrey Miller (https://www.amazon.com/Mate-Become-Man-Women-Want/dp/B01LTHXJVE). If you're serious about learning more and turning around your situation i highly recommend picking up a copy and reading and rereading it through.
" that really really fucked me up. i stopped using online dating a little while after that. i lost all hope. it just reinforced the idea that the universe wants me to stay alone.... do i just keep using tinder and okcupid?"
This is already giga long but i wanted to respond about this because it also resonates with me alot and i've felt this way many times.
With time i learned that feeling this way is just a big hint from the universe to take a break, regroup, lick your wounds, start feeling better about yourself before you get up and start up again. The book linked above has more about this.
About the girl you mentioned, i really wouldn't sweat it bro. You yourself admitted your both not that close for obvious reasons and it seems like she has some stuff on her plate as well. I would knock it off for a while and if she comes back its cool, you can give it another whirl and if not than its cool as well, you should move on.
Finally i wanted to write down that you have much more going for you than you realize, its great that you found this community. Please continue posting and pm me whenever you want to talk.
well, you started with the moon logic... if i'd say your opinions are fairy philosophy and they make you think this and that, how much would you like to give sources? Also, as i said, it's extremely complex and it would be hard to provide all the sources i need for a conversation that doesn't mean anything in the long term.
These are some "fun" books to read and start seeing the big picture a bit better about that some chemicals do to us. Also Joe Rogan had another Ph.D that was talking about how pollution literally made some male fish to female fish, but i can't remember his name.
Estrogeneration: How Estrogenics Are Making You Fat, Sick, and Infertile
This is a great book about relationships.
Whether they conducted their research in life or in the lab, experts Tucker Max and Dr. Geoffrey Miller have spent the last 20+ years learning what women really want from their men, why they want it, and how men can deliver those qualities.
The rabbit hole goes deep and seriously, my last post, i only wrote because you seem like a decent guy overall. There's way too much to talk about and i don't want to convince you of anything, good luck and take care
Listen to the mating ground podcast. It's insanely good https://toppodcast.com/podcast_feeds/the-mating-grounds-podcast/.
https://www.amazon.com/Mate-Become-Man-Women-Want/dp/B01LTHXJVE Is incredible.
These things show you how to be the very best man you can be and that attracts women.
sincer, cel mai bun sfat care il pot da, este sa mergi la un psiholog bun (ai mentionat terapia dar nu e clar ce ai facut, poate incerci CBT), preferabil femeie
dupa recomand cartea https://www.amazon.com/Mate-Become-Man-Women-Want/dp/B01LTHXJVE
incepe sa mergi la sala incepe ceva hobiuri sau activitati de caritate unde poti socializa inclusiv cu fete.
Presupun ca esti baiat,
Multi idioti o sa iti spuna tot felul de chestii despre fete/femei, cum sa te "porti" cu ele, ca trebuie sa "f***" tot ce misca, si ca nu e problema daca minti sau daca le hartuiesti sau alte lucruri mai rau (vei auzi chiar si de la fete).
Oamenii astia incearca sa normalizeze comportamentul lor (sau ce li sa intamplat lor) ca sa ascunda , sa spuna ca asa face toata lumea.
Cu siguranta nu vrei sa asculti oameni de genu, sau sa continuii in prezenta lor.
>In interactiunea cu oamenii in general, pune-te in situatia lor si intreaba-te daca cineva mi-ar face asta, cum m-as simti ? ar fi corect?
Daca o fata iti spune ca nu ai nevoie de prezervativ, cu siguranta ai nevoie de prezervativ (durex, sau mai bun). Singura exceptie e daca sunteti intr-o relatie de mult timp (discutat ce se intampla in caz de sarcina si cum preveniti).
Fiecare femeie este diferita in pat ( ce o aduce la orgasm ), intreaba ce ii place, o sa aprecieze.
Iti pui in calendar, ziua ei si aniversarea voastra.
Afli la inceputul relatiei ce preferinte are si le scrii, le vei uita peste ani!
Cluburile de striptease, sunt locuri unde ori se vinde sex, ori se vand sucuri de sute de lei (desigur tu nu stii cat costa, pana la final), evita asa ceva.
In zonele de turisti ale oraselor mari, daca te abordeaza o domnisoara si te intreaba daca vrei sa te distrezi, ca are niste prietene, ca stie ea un loc, refuza (pot fi extrem de insistente).
In cel mai bun caz ramai fara bani (cash si de pe carduri).
Anumite droguri creaza dependenta instant de la prima doza, mai bine le eviti de tot.
Marijuana, tigarile, alcoolul mai greu, dar nu iti dai seama niciodata, crezi ca esti in control.
>La jocurile de "noroc" nu e decat ghinion, daca ar putea clientii sa faca bani, ar fi dat toti faliment! Chiar si in Las Vegas te da afara si iei ban daca numeri cartile.
La toate masinile "rata de castig" este o setare, totul este calculat pentru psihologia omului. E imposibil sa iesi pe plus pe termen lung.
Daca vezi ca incepe sa iti cada parul, nu astepta, mergi la un dermatolog bun, cu putin efort iti poti pastra parul.
Ai grija de dinti, ochi si urechi, chestii pe care nu o constientizezi pana nu plangi de durere pe jos, sau iti smulge o masea cu un cleste.
Cand esti tanar ai impresia ca esti indestructibil, din pacate nu esti :)
Incepe sa faci sala sau exercitii acasa.
Sub nici o forma sa nu te atingi de steroizi sau alte prostii (creatina, etc), orice progres vrei sa fie natural.
Daca ai impresia ca esti o "pasare de noapte", mai productiv seara, defapt e din cauza mediului, cand vei avea un mediu linistit vei fi mult mai productiv ziua.
Daca ajungi in depresie clinica (numai vrei sa iesi din casa, sa mananci, sa vb cu lumea, asculti predominant muzica cu mesaje ... negative, auto-sabotezi, te gandesti sa iti faci rau sau sa faci rau) ai nevoie urgenta de un psiholog!
Poate iti vei reveni singur, dar cu un psiholog iti vei reveni mult mai repede (ani).
Fa un test adn, o sa iti spuna la ce boli esti mai predispus.
Invata sa gatesti cateva lucruri sanatoase.
In viata, managementul timpului e chiar mai important decat al banilor.
Cand iti iei masina, nu cauta viteza, cauta comfort, in aceeasi idee evita sa mergi cu teribilisti (ei poate nu considera ca mai au pentru ce trai, dar poate tu ai).
(Cursul de la titi aur de conducere defensiva se merita)
Prima mea prietena mi-a spus, concentreaza-te pe un singur lucru, sa il faci bine decat o gramada de chestii mediocru.
Invata sa te razi cu o lama clasica dubla (safety razor), fa spuma cu crema si pamatuf (ieftin, bun si relaxant).
Invata sa lustruieti pantofii, e usor si e mare diferenta.
Dupa 21 de ani ai nevoie de doua costume, unul negru ieftin si unul navy blue, amandoua trebuie sa iti vina bine, le ajustezi la un croitor ( nu se pot ajusta la umeri ).
Cand ajungi sa lucrezi, 10% pui intr-un cont de urgenta, in fiecare luna. Daca vrei poti sa te opresti cand iti ajunge sa supravietuiesti un an. Nu intri niciodata in banii astia. (Ii tii in euro)
Daca ai o situatie importanta in viata (succesiune, faci o firma, cumperi o casa ) Citeste legea, ai o gramada de drepturi.
Orice categorie sau subcategorie de persoane (varsta, culoare, sex, partid, religie, tara, venit, inaltime) contin oameni buni si mai putin buni.
Carti pe care le-as recomanda:
I've been where you are. Good news: it is possible to get out of this hole. Bad news: it's hard. I'm no guru, I don't have all the answers, and I'm still working a lot of this out. But I have had a lot more romantic success in the past couple of years than the decade prior to that.
I'm going to assume you're looking for someone to be emotionally and physically intimate with, because you're not just talking about getting laid.
Simple, but there's a lot of subtlety in the execution. I ripped the quote from the Amazon listing of <u>Mate: Become the Man Women Want</u>, which I was going to recommend anyway. It did me a lot of good, and I need to reread it.
The rest of this post is a bunch of disjointed sections about things that helped me. Maybe they'll help you too. Expect lots of broad generalizations about sex and gender, and about dating as a straight man (sorry, queerfolk: you're cool but I don't have any experience there. Not my thing). This post would be three times the size if I put "most" and "often" everywhere; read them in where it makes sense to do so.
There is advice elsewhere in this thread that "wanting a girlfriend" is a wrong thought that makes you some kind of terrible person. Set such thoughts aside, and come back to them later. It is completely okay to want to meet a great girl who ends up becoming your girlfriend. It is completely okay to choose activities, or industries, or even cities to live in by the fact that there are women you like there. I work in an industry that's overwhelmingly male. I enjoy my work, but it means I had to be realistic - staying in a smaller town with a less vibrant social scene wasn't doing my love life any favors. So I moved to a city with more people and a better social scene.
I'm an introvert, too. The way I usually see introversion described is this: it takes energy for an introvert to get out and spend time with people, whereas the reverse is true for extroverts. For me, I feel that this is because I find spending time at parties very cognitively effortful, because I am consciously applying a skill in those spaces. That means, like any other skill, it slowly becomes automatic with practice. Driving a car was hard at first, so was dancing, so was being fun at a party. All get better with practice, so don't write yourself off as "an introvert" - you might benefit from more structured events (board game nights?, dance socials?) as you work on this.
People on Reddit often cynically say "Rule 1: Be attractive. Rule 2: Don't be unattractive.". It's true - you need to attract the sorts of women you want to be with, and then not turn them off. The main problem with the standard Redditor framing is it assumes that people never change, and grossly underestimates how much improvement is possible. Exercise, diet, dressing well; they all pay dividends. Since the halo effect is real, you should be putting effort in here anyway. This is easier said than done, which is why being fit in a world full of crap food and idleness-promoting distractions sends such a strong signal.
Although it is broadly true that men proposition women and women then select among their suitors, the idea that men are trying to take something from women when it comes to sex and dating is pernicious. See this page from The Book of Pook - his fun overflows into the world, and even if the woman he talks to doesn't give Pook her number, they've still had a mutually fun interaction together. Asking a girl out is not begging her to accept you, but instead offering her a chance to be with you. If you can hold that mindset, several good things follow:
If you can't cultivate that mindset then improve yourself (fitness, dress, interpersonal skills, being interesting, having interest in other people) until you can. This goes for day-to-day interactions, harmless flirting, dating, all the way through to relationships.
"Creepiness" is often ill-defined, but a reputation as a "creep" can poison an entire social scene against a man. The best definition of "creepiness" I've found is: a visible inability or unwillingness to follow social norms. A man who is visibly not following social norms (be it around personal hygiene, respect of personal space, hesitancy around casual touching OR too being touchy, misreading social cues, etc.) makes those around him ask the question, "if he's can't follow rules in public, what rules won't he follow in private?". The first chapter (IIRC) of Mate asks men to imagine dating as a woman: imagine being simultaneously turned on by and extremely physically vulnerable to the same man. It's very important that women feel safe to become excited by you and with you.
Dancing is a fantastic hobby: you get fun, exercise, social contact, physical touch, and music in an environment that often has a pretty good ratio of guys and girls. Some friends dragged me along a couple of times to classes; I never thought I'd enjoy dancing but have really grown to love it. It's very important to conduct yourself well in a dance scene: they are often a bit insular, and the "guy who is there only to pull girls" is a bit of a meme. "But Bento," you might ask, "you said before it's okay to go where the girls are! Are you contradicting yourself?" No, I'm not. Going dancing to pull girls is manipulative. Going dancing to see if you like dancing, and because it will later put you in a space where you interact with lots of girls who share a thing you enjoy is not. If you end up authentically enjoying dancing and sharing dances with girls then that's great. It's a subtle difference but a really important one.
A lot of things happen in dancing that are a microcosm of male/female interactions. The style that I dance is quite sensual, and danced in a close hold. Even so, there is a massive amount of variation in how closely different women will dance with me and with other men - it goes back to that safety thing I wrote about above. Many women enjoy dancing close, just like men do, but they need to feel safe to do it. That feeling of safety comes from a bunch of places (Has she danced with you before? Has she seen you dance with other women? Do you have a rep - good or bad?). So that's a signal that you can read - how much is she enjoying dancing with you? It is a noisy signal, so beware: I've had absolute firecracker dances with women that I know are married or in committed relationships. That's fine, because we both enjoyed the experience and those women felt safe enough to dance with me in that way, knowing that I wouldn't overstep the line.
I know you've mentioned that you have a crush on a girl at your class, but I'd almost recommend treating your main dance class as off-limits until you have a good foundation of dancing skill. Secondary classes, socials, or exchanges might be better. Leading is hard work, and as a beginner you'll be in an environment where there are a lot of men who are flat-out better than you at dancing. I've seen it called Beginner's Hell, but that's a bit dramatic. That said, I met my current girlfriend through dancing, and did in fact ask her out after our regular class. But we'd danced together a few times, and it was pretty clear that she was interested. As best I remember, it went like this:
Note that a lot of people do enjoy the attention and physicality of dance and use it to sate their need for physical intimacy. This can be frustrating if you misread a girl's interest, and a trap for you if it becomes a poor substitute for a good relationship.
>Well yes, what women find arousing/attractive is basically those physical traits, and any signs of competence/the ability to provide resources. At least that is the scientific consensus. Deal-breakers are kind of a separate dimension. If you want to read about and understand them, I recommend this book, co-written by an evolutionary psychologist. It seems like you have some difficulty wrapping your head around why things are obvious deal breakers, it's explained very specifically and logically in this book.
I don’t have access to that book right now. Maybe I will give it a look later. It would be helpful if in the mean time you could give me some kind of breakdown of what areas we’re looking at in terms of ‘deal breakers’ (like I gave you some information r.e. Mark Manson) because from where I’m standing, features of attraction still seem to fit into a broad array other than just aesthetics and financial competence. I haven’t heard much about charisma or popularity / quality of social contacts yet, for example. Also, this is anecdotal but I have often seen attractive women with men conventionally deemed to be unattractive.
This seems to either support some of the other studies I listed – that there isn’t a universality of attraction when it comes to aesthetic factors and that women find other types of men physically attractive as well (besides the conventional ‘good lookers’) – or it seems that there may be other factors that are just as important or even more important. I mean, you talk about ‘deal breakers’ a lot but where I’m standing that’s just a lack of attractiveness/desirability in one specific factor. For example, you talk about being socially incompetent as a ‘deal breaker’: well that just indicates to me that status is an important feature of attraction, maybe even a prerequisite.
I mean, I could talk about being ugly as being a ‘deal breaker’ but it seems to make more sense to just look at the whole package – aesthetics, physicality, social status (tier of profession and also quality of social contacts), personality, social competence and wealth in their entirety – as separate features of attraction in their own right. It seems like women as a whole like a broad array of traits in each of those categories mentioned which feeds into the alternative theory of female attraction as a quintessentially irrational phenomenon.
>I gave you the stuff that's been replicated above.
I will see what I can get from reviews and free previews of the book you cited but right now, all I can see is a more compelling case for female attraction as an irrational phenomenon.
>The experiment demonstrates that humans can instinctively assess their desirability on a given value simply by navigating non-verbal cues.
Which was something I gathered. This explanation doesn’t account for some of the ‘extraneous’ variables I pointed out that apply to real world attraction (for women too, not just men) that would complicate a study of this level of simplicity if they try to apply this. The non-verbal cues that are used would be a lot of different in the real world. For example in that experiment you could see clearly when two people had paired off – that’s not something which applies in real life (so you might still approach someone you deem to be in your league of attraction, not knowing that they already have a partner).
You could also see clearly if “everyone” liked you (if you were a 10, because everyone went straight up to you) versus if “nobody” liked you (if you were a 1, because nobody would come up to you: you had to wait until the end of the experiment). In the real world, people are more shy around 8s, 9s and 10s whereas although nobody really wants to approach a 1 or a 2, people will feel somewhat comfortable approaching 6s and 7s (maybe lower, depending on their own league of attraction).
The value system you mention was also very simple: it doesn’t account for a wide range of different features that different people might find attractive (such as the ones discussed), nor does it account for people’s different rating systems. Imagine if instead of being given numbers, they were given ‘colours’ – red, purple, blue, orange, yellow, etc. – and each of the participants in the experiment were assigned a different number for the respective colours. There would be considerably more confusion then, as a yellow might rate a red a 10 who might only rate the yellow back a 5 while the yellow could be rated a 7 or an 8 by someone who’s got purple. Multiply the number of participants so you end up with the entire population of people and there’s significantly more nuance and variability determining individual people’s ‘league’ of attraction.
>My general argument is that guys know their "league" as in, they know what league they are in when they are presentable. If you're struggling with women and are unhappy with the ones who want you - this is likely because you brain has been picking up on signals from women who have not had time to meet you and be exposed to whatever deal-breakers you have. It can be as subtle as someone looking at you for 5 seconds when they see you, and everyone else looks for 1 second. You pick up on that - the oldest parts of your brain pick up on that.
Yeah but you’re basing this on an idea that “hot women” will have the same idea of what constitutes attractiveness and that if you can’t get “hot women” you should go for less attractive “cuties” or whatever, whereas realistically, some hotties and cuties might agree what they think is attractive whereas some hotties or cuties might disagree among themselves what they think is attractive. So if one cutie doesn’t like you for example, it doesn’t necessarily mean an average or below average girl would like you and it doesn’t mean some other cutie wouldn’t like you.
>They do. And this of course affects attraction. But I'm talking league as 100% looks-wise. All else being equal.
But you can’t look at league by just one factor everything else being equal and if you did why just focus solely on looks. In real life people have different qualities assigned to their individual factors of attraction as determined by different people. You can’t just look at two guys who have different leagues of aesthetics (determined by conventional views of attraction) and then assume they are equal in every other aspect – tier of profession, quality of hobbies, number and quality of social contacts, amount of economic resources, etc.
>They'll favor the ones they find attractive. If you're in a social circle with her already, there are loads of things she doesn't worry about (What will my friends think of him? How is he around other people? How does he act when he doesn't try to impress me?) which she worries about if she doesn't know you. So there's a lot more stuff you have to be aware of with a stranger - which makes it a non-ideal situation for someone with lacking social skills.
And yet, this isn’t stuff women know about guys just from online dating. Also, I’d like to point out, this further proves superficialities exist with women as well as men, since she’s judging people by social reputation and chinese whispers rather than trusting her own ability to make an informed judgement about people by their own merits after she’s known them for a period of time, not necessarily just looking at people in her own circle. It’s part of a high school mentality where if someone’s not popular, they’re a ‘weirdo’ and then of course the more people see them as weirdo, the more unpopular they become over time.
>Yeah. And evolution wired her this way. It's not like women in the western world met and decided "Hey, let's judge men by an unreasonable standard".
I never said it was a conspiracy. All I said it was unfair that men are shamed as the superficial gender and women assumed to be virtuous, deep and meaningful because they don’t judge men by looks alone. Even that I don’t think is a conspiracy but a biological imperative that women are ‘all things sugar, spice and nice’ that’s based on the seductive appearance of femininity and men’s natural instinct to protect weaker and vulnerable creatures (especially the ones that are responsible for raising their offspring). We tend to notice bad flaws and unbecoming character traits in our own gender for that reason and ignore the shortcomings women can have. Feminists also have a political agenda to protect the interests of their own gender, so it’s not surprising that people see women as ‘all things sugar, spice and nice’.
>You may say she should be open-minded.
I’m not saying she should be anything. Women are entitled to their standards, I just ask that everyone be honest about this.
> As a young person who doesn't understand dating at all, is there a specific way that it's supposed to work?
Read Mate by Geoffrey Miller and Tucker Max.
I was in the exact same position you were a few years ago, this book kickstarted it all.
OP, I'm really sorry you're going through this. I think we all want to believe that there is someone out there for us, and I don't want to take that hope away from you. This book helped me understand dating from an evolutionary perspective. It is harder for short guys and less conventionally attractive people, but there are strategies in this book that will help optimize your chances. At the least, following the suggestions will improve your life generally.