{"product":{"product_id":"0802803962","title":"On the Reliability of the Old Testament","price":"40.23","image_url":"https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41wOm3B8JoL._SL500_.jpg","url":"https://www.amazon.com/dp/0802803962"},"comments":[{"body":"I've heard great things about this book, might want to give it a look as it may help with your question: On the Reliability of the Old Testament by K.A. Kitchen. \r\n\r\nhttps://www.amazon.com/dp/0802803962/?coliid=I349U78PJ5CWDI\u0026amp;colid=2KQI2IA4VRDZA\u0026amp;psc=0\u0026amp;ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it","subreddit_name":"Catholicism","author":"Germanicus118"},{"body":"\u0026gt; The one I read and recommend is “Reading the Old Testament.” \r\n\r\nGood recommendation. Have you ever read [On the Reliability of the Old Testament](https://www.amazon.com/Reliability-Old-Testament-K-Kitchen/dp/0802803962)? I read it over a decade ago and it's still on my bookshelf just a couple feet from me now, but I don't remember much of it.","subreddit_name":"Catholicism","author":"georgeplethon"},{"body":"\u0026gt; For instance, no modern academics of Egyptian history believe Jews were enslaved in Egypt or that Moses was a real person. All of that is considered 100% mythology.\r\n\r\nThat is untrue.  While the acceptance of these things is not as uniform as it was in the 60's, once can still find scholars who affirm the historicity of these.  [Kenneth Kitchen, for instance](https://www.amazon.com/Reliability-Old-Testament-K-Kitchen/dp/0802803962/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1).  Is he not an academic?","subreddit_name":"Catholicism","author":"Dr_Talon"},{"body":"In before \"Exodus never happened cuz Wikipedia.\" \r\n\r\n\r\n\u0026gt;The Delta is an alluvial fan of mud deposited through many millennia by the annual flooding of the Nile; it has no source of stone within it. Mud, mud and wattle, and mud-brick structures were of limited duration and use, and were repeatedly leveled and replaced, and very largely merged once more with the mud of the fields. . . . The mud hovels of brickfield slaves and humble cultivators have long since gone back to their mud origins, never to be seen again. . . . And, as pharaohs never monumentalize defeats on temple walls, no record of the successful exit of a large bunch of foreign slaves (with loss of a full chariot squadron) would ever have been memorialized by any king, in temples in the Delta or anywhere else. On these matters, once and for all, biblicists must shed their naïve attitudes and cease demanding ‘evidence’ that cannot exist.\" [p. 246](https://www.amazon.com/Reliability-Old-Testament-K-Kitchen/dp/0802803962) (Kenneth Kitchen is one of the most preeminent scholars of ancient Egypt, having authored hundreds of journal articles and books.)\r\n\r\nMost of what we know about history comes from written reports of eyewitnesses. Ask Ed Gibbon. The Kuzari constitutes a singularity of eyewitness proof. It is, by proxy, evidence of the Exodus. By what meta-criterion do gaps in the fossil record (heh) take logical precedence over the eyewitness testimony of a VAST group? *The skeptic can't just assume it.* History and archaeology are not sciences in the way physics is.  \r\n","subreddit_name":"noahide","author":"Donkey_of_Balaam"},{"body":"In before \"Exodus never happened cuz Wikipedia.\" \r\n\r\n\r\n\u0026gt;The Delta is an alluvial fan of mud deposited through many millennia by the annual flooding of the Nile; it has no source of stone within it. Mud, mud and wattle, and mud-brick structures were of limited duration and use, and were repeatedly leveled and replaced, and very largely merged once more with the mud of the fields. . . . The mud hovels of brickfield slaves and humble cultivators have long since gone back to their mud origins, never to be seen again. . . . And, as pharaohs never monumentalize defeats on temple walls, no record of the successful exit of a large bunch of foreign slaves (with loss of a full chariot squadron) would ever have been memorialized by any king, in temples in the Delta or anywhere else. On these matters, once and for all, biblicists must shed their naïve attitudes and cease demanding ‘evidence’ that cannot exist.\" [p. 246](https://www.amazon.com/Reliability-Old-Testament-K-Kitchen/dp/0802803962) (Kenneth Kitchen is one of the most preeminent scholars of ancient Egypt, having authored hundreds of journal articles and books.)\r\n\r\nMost of what we know about history comes from written reports of eyewitnesses. Ask Ed Gibbon. The Kuzari constitutes a singularity of eyewitness proof. It is, by proxy, evidence of the Exodus. By what meta-criterion do gaps in the fossil record (heh) take logical precedence over the eyewitness testimony of a VAST group? *The skeptic can't just assume it.* History and archaeology are not sciences in the way physics is.  ","subreddit_name":"noahide","author":"Donkey_of_Balaam"},{"body":"\u0026gt; \"If the Exodus happened, then we'd expect any piece of evidence.\" And there isn't any.\r\n\r\n\"The Delta is an alluvial fan of mud deposited through many millennia by the annual flooding of the Nile; it has no source of stone within it. Mud, mud and wattle, and mud-brick structures were of limited duration and use, and were repeatedly leveled and replaced, and very largely merged once more with the mud of the fields. . . . The mud hovels of brickfield slaves and humble cultivators have long since gone back to their mud origins, never to be seen again. . . . And, as pharaohs never monumentalize defeats on temple walls, no record of the successful exit of a large bunch of foreign slaves (with loss of a full chariot squadron) would ever have been memorialized by any king, in temples in the Delta or anywhere else. On these matters, once and for all, biblicists must shed their naïve attitudes and cease demanding ‘evidence’ that cannot exist.\" ([p. 246](https://www.amazon.com/Reliability-Old-Testament-K-Kitchen/dp/0802803962))\r\n\r\n\u0026gt;What modern Jews believe is irrelevant when judging the Torah. \r\n\r\nWhat about Saadia Gaon, Gersonides \u0026amp; Maimonides, none of whom insisted on your fundie literalism? In the 13th century, Isaac ben Samuel of Acre estimated the age of the universe to be 13.799 ± 0.021 billion years. Not too shabby! In the 11th century, Abraham Ibn Ezra wrote this:\r\n\r\n\u0026gt;If there appears something in the Torah which contradicts reason … then here one should seek for the solution in a figurative interpretation … the narrative of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, for instance, can only be understood in a figurative sense.\r\n\r\n","subreddit_name":"DebateReligion","author":"Donkey_of_Balaam"},{"body":"\u0026gt; But there are many who say the same of Scripture.  \r\n\r\nChristianity has passed all the tests of history and theology.  Archeologists have found that the Bible has been a reliable source for centuries.  Islam is the opposite.  Historians are finding new versions of the Quran, despite Islam's attempts to burn variations.   Islam claims that there is only one copy, so this is a big problem for Islam.  Islamic sources have blocked access from academics looking into it further.  Christianity is the opposite. It has encouraged academics.   \r\n  \r\nhttps://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2020/december/biblical-archaeology-new-discoveries-2020-bible-artifacts.html \r\n\r\n\u0026gt; They say the Flood wasn't real, Eden wasn't real, humanity isn't from Adam and Eve, the Joshua conquest never occurred, Exodus and the 400 years of slavery in Egypt never occurred, etc.\r\n\r\nIslam claims most of those things too, but fails with it's own specific claims. \r\n\r\nScience is finding more and more evidence for a global flood every year.  A lot of the science of Geology is still developing.  This is a good overview :  \r\n\r\nhttps://youtu.be/UM82qxxskZE \r\n \r\n\u0026gt; Exodus and the 400 years of slavery in Egypt never occurred, etc.   \r\n\r\nI found good historical justification in the following sources.  Jesus is the ultimate witness of course, and He affirmed Adam, Noah, Abraham and Moses. \r\n\r\nKenneth Kitchen's book, On the Reliability of the Old Testament:    \r\nhttps://www.amazon.com/Reliability-Old-Testament-K-Kitchen/dp/0802803962\r\n\r\nThe work of Egyptologist James K. Hoffmeier:   \r\nhttps://www.amazon.com/Israel-Egypt-Evidence-Authenticity-Tradition/dp/019513088X  \r\nhttps://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Israel-Sinai-Authenticity-Wilderness/dp/0199731691  \r\n\r\nThe video documentary Patterns of Evidence: The Exodus, which is very balanced and well-done: http://patternsofevidence.com/","subreddit_name":"AskAChristian","author":"luvintheride"},{"body":"https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0802803962/\r\n\r\nhttps://www.amazon.com/gp/product/019513088X/\r\n\r\nhttps://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0195155467/\r\n\r\nI realise linking books on Amazon probably isn't particularly helpful, but those are the ones I could think of without access to the university library.","subreddit_name":"stupidpol","author":"AvarizeDK"},{"body":"\u0026gt;  How would you guys recommend trying to find out more about this?\r\n\r\nI used to be a hard skeptic, so started at the bottom, studying basic logic and philosophy (Socrates, Aristotle, Ontology, Epistemology, etc). That helps navigate everything else. \r\n\r\nUsing Bayesian logic, eventually one should realize that Theism is a better explanation of reality than Naturalism.  Books like Dr. Feser's \"5 proofs for God\" help with that.\r\n\r\nThe facts of history show that only Judaism+Christianity had the correct necessary Ontology for God ( singular,eternal, immaterial, perfected, etc).  All other religions get that wrong.  Christianity  is the fulfillment, which you can check into history on.  I recommend the resources below [1].\r\n\r\nFrom an everyday practical level, it is good to think about the life and teachings of Christ.   I don't know if you have children, but His teachings become a lot more obviously important in that light.   Even if you don't believe, it's just a good way to live.\r\n\r\njfyi - I have some dear friends in the Mormon Church, so would love to hear any advice you have about talking with them.  I listen to Mormon Stories regularly, and other podcasts and find it fascinating.  I think a lot of people like myself are amazed that something like the LDS church even exists. I know a lot of people are leaving, but I hope they have a soft landing. \r\n   \r\n[1]\r\nKenneth Kitchen's book, On the Reliability of the Old Testament: \r\nhttps://www.amazon.com/Reliability-Old-Testament-K-Kitchen/dp/0802803962\r\n \r\nEgyptologist James K. Hoffmeier: \r\nhttps://www.amazon.com/Israel-Egypt-Evidence-Authenticity-Tradition/dp/019513088X  \r\n\"James Hoffmeier examines the most current Egyptological evidence and argues that it supports the biblical record concerning Israel in Egypt.\"\r\n   \r\nhttps://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Israel-Sinai-Authenticity-Wilderness/dp/0199731691   \r\n\"Ancient Israel in Sinai: The Evidence for the Authenticity of the Wilderness Tradition 1st Edition\"\r\n\r\nPatterns of Evidence is a balanced presentation of arguments for and against Exodus with leading Egyptologists, including some who don't believe that Exodus happened : http://patternsofevidence.com/","subreddit_name":"exatheist","author":"luvintheride"},{"body":"\u0026gt;“Everybody recognizes these southern origins of Yahweh, but most scholars stop there,” Amzallag says. \r\n\r\nhttps://www.haaretz.com/amp/archaeology/.premium.MAGAZINE-jewish-god-yahweh-originated-in-canaanite-vulcan-says-new-theory-1.5992072\r\n\r\nMost scholars stop there because there’s no more evidence beyond a theory. Many scholars have debunked this theory.\r\n\r\n[Reliability of the Old Testament](https://www.amazon.com/Reliability-Old-Testament-K-Kitchen/dp/0802803962)\r\n\r\nKenneth Kitchen is a British biblical scholar, Ancient Near Eastern historian, and Personal and Brunner Professor Emeritus of Egyptology and Honorary Research Fellow at the School of Archaeology, Classics and Egyptology, University of Liverpool, England.\r\n\r\n[Israelite religions](https://www.amazon.com/Israelite-Religions-Archaeological-Biblical-Survey/dp/0801027179)\r\nRichard Hess is an American Old Testament scholar. He is Earl S. Kalland Professor of Old Testament and Semitic Languages at Denver Seminary. Hess has degrees from Wheaton College, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, and Hebrew Union College.\r\n\r\n\r\n[Lost world of the conquest](https://www.amazon.com/Lost-World-Israelite-Conquest-Retribution/dp/0830851844)\r\nJohn H. Walton is an Old Testament scholar and Professor at Wheaton College. He was a professor at Moody Bible Institute for 20 years. He specializes in the Ancient Near Eastern backgrounds of the Old Testament, especially Genesis and its creation account, as well as interpretation of Job.\r\n\r\nOr if you don’t want to read those books you can watch this video which summarises those books and the archeological evidence \r\n\r\n[YHWH didn’t emerge from a pantheon](https://youtu.be/Dw9eQ87Gx8c)\r\n\r\nAnd If the Exodus happened which there is evidence for this fringe theory is debunked. Here is a great YouTube series on the evidence for the exodus by an Egyptologist\r\n\r\n[exodus Rediscovered](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL1mr9ZTZb3TVhsJ06Zb4FRQfEAVajfDg-)","subreddit_name":"Christianity","author":"GeorgePsarros1216"},{"body":"There’s no evidence that YHWH was apart of a Canaanite pantheon. The Israelites did worship other gods but that’s what the Bible says happened, they were supposed to worship others but they rebelled against YHWH.\r\n\r\nMany scholars like Kenneth Kitchens \r\n\r\n[Reliability of the Old Testament](https://www.amazon.com/Reliability-Old-Testament-K-Kitchen/dp/0802803962)\r\n\r\nAnd Richard Hess\r\n\r\n[Israelite Religions](https://www.amazon.com/Israelite-Religions-Archaeological-Biblical-Survey/dp/0801027179)\r\n\r\nDebunk this fringed theory. Here is also a video that debunks it if you don’t want to read those books\r\n\r\n[Did YHWH emerge from a pantheon? No](https://youtu.be/Dw9eQ87Gx8c)\r\n\r\nIf the Exodus happened which there is evidence for this fringe theory is debunked. Here is a great YouTube series on the evidence for the exodus by an Egyptologist \r\n\r\n[Exodus Rediscovered](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL1mr9ZTZb3TVhsJ06Zb4FRQfEAVajfDg-)","subreddit_name":"Christianity","author":"GeorgePsarros1216"},{"body":"It took me over a dozen books, and countless hours of podcasts and debates.\r\n\r\nDr.Feser - 5 proofs for God.  \r\nGK Chesterton - The Everlasting Man.  \r\nCS Lewis - Mere Christianity.   \r\nThomas Woods - How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization.    \r\n\r\nBishop Barron - Who God is : https://youtu.be/1zMf_8hkCdc. \r\n\r\nStephen Molyneux  - The Devil is not Hiding - On Bitchute\r\n\r\nStephen Molyneux is an agnostic, but talks like his on history and evil in our culture helped open my eyes.   Even non-religious people realize that there is transcendent evil in the world.  That inspired me to look for the transcendent good.  \r\n\r\nHistoricity of Moses and Exodus :\r\n\r\n Kenneth Kitchen's book, On the Reliability of the Old Testament: \r\nhttps://www.amazon.com/Reliability-Old-Testament-K-Kitchen/dp/0802803962\r\n\r\nThe work of Egyptologist James K. Hoffmeier: \r\nhttps://www.amazon.com/Israel-Egypt-Evidence-Authenticity-Tradition/dp/019513088X\r\n\"James Hoffmeier examines the most current Egyptological evidence and argues that it supports the biblical record concerning Israel in Egypt.\"\r\n   \r\nhttps://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Israel-Sinai-Authenticity-Wilderness/dp/0199731691 \r\n\"Ancient Israel in Sinai: The Evidence for the Authenticity of the Wilderness Tradition 1st Edition\"\r\n\r\nPatterns of Evidence is a balanced presentation of arguments for and against Exodus with leading Egyptologists, including some who don't believe that Exodus happened : http://patternsofevidence.com/","subreddit_name":"exatheist","author":"luvintheride"},{"body":"\u0026gt; A Bayesian analysis wouldn't give you evidence\r\n\r\nI didn't say it did.  Bayesian reasoning is a way of EVALUATING evidence.\r\n\r\n\u0026gt; What you found is your own inherent bias, not evidence of theism.\r\n\r\nNo, I had a bias against theism.   It took me years to finally see that the evidence was for it as a last resort.   The nature of Consciousness and Life weighed most heavily on the Theism side.\r\n\r\n\u0026gt; There is no reason to believe that consciousness being an emergent process is anything other than natural. \r\n\r\nIt sounds like you have not investigated the field much.   There is no evidence of \"emergent\" material processes causing consciousness. I  spent years going to neuroscience conferences and meeting researchers.   \r\n\r\nAlso, \"emergent\" is just a hand-waiving red-herring.  My field is computer science, and I have built a lot of sophisticated systems with \"emergent\" processes.  Those can be deconstructed.  I recommend that you check the data yourself, or pay attention more carefully researchers like Dr. Chalmer's. He has looked into the data deeply for decades.  His best hypothesis from the evidence is that consciousness is \"fundamental\" to the Universe.  That's basically what Theism has been saying for 4000+ years.\r\n\r\n\u0026gt; You not finding a sufficient explanation for this process, does not result in an alternate explanation becoming more likely\r\n\r\nIt seems that you are confused about the process that I used. I did years of processes of elimination, which has also been done in the field.   e.g.   Brain matter has been removed, yet memory and functions remain.   All the evidence points to consciousness coming THROUGH the brain, not FROM it which is why recent decades have focused on Quantum effects.  See the article below.  The base of the brain appears to be a gateway  to something that we can not see.\r\n\r\nhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind \r\n\r\n The following article sums up a repeating pattern in the field :\r\n\r\nhttps://aeon.co/essays/your-brain-does-not-process-information-and-it-is-not-a-computer\r\n\r\n\u0026gt; What attempts have you made to prove the Bible is incorrect? \r\n\r\nWhen I was atheist, I studied the related history for over 10 years: \r\n\r\ne.g. Historicity of Moses and Exodus :\r\n\r\n Kenneth Kitchen's book, On the Reliability of the Old Testament: \r\nhttps://www.amazon.com/Reliability-Old-Testament-K-Kitchen/dp/0802803962\r\n\r\nThe work of Egyptologist James K. Hoffmeier: \r\nhttps://www.amazon.com/Israel-Egypt-Evidence-Authenticity-Tradition/dp/019513088X\r\n\"James Hoffmeier examines the most current Egyptological evidence and argues that it supports the biblical record concerning Israel in Egypt.\"\r\n   \r\nhttps://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Israel-Sinai-Authenticity-Wilderness/dp/0199731691 \r\n\"Ancient Israel in Sinai: The Evidence for the Authenticity of the Wilderness Tradition 1st Edition\"\r\n\r\nPatterns of Evidence is a balanced presentation of arguments for and against Exodus with leading Egyptologists, including some who don't believe that Exodus happened : http://patternsofevidence.com/\r\n\r\n\r\n\u0026gt; Let's start there since we keep going into tangents about things that are not actually attempts at falsifying your beliefs\r\n\r\nI'm happy to discuss how I got from ardent atheist to christianity, but if you want to debate history, I recommend starting a debate topic so that you can get more input.\r\n\r\nIn general, I kept finding atheist sources like Richard Carrier to be wrong, and scholarly sources like the ones that I mentioned above to be legit.\r\n\r\nFor example, the (skeptical) work of Francesca Stavrakopoulou is a joke by scholarly standards.","subreddit_name":"DebateAChristian","author":"luvintheride"},{"body":"\u0026gt; In the time of the wandering they had Moses, Aaron and Joshua. And even that was not enough to convince them.\r\n\r\nThat generation was to be cleansed, not \"convinced\".  God used 40 years to raise up a new generation.\r\n\r\n\u0026gt; Or maybe it shows that the authors of the books wrote these stories with a bias for their own cult?\r\n\r\nHistoricity of Moses and Exodus :\r\n\r\n Kenneth Kitchen's book, On the Reliability of the Old Testament: \r\nhttps://www.amazon.com/Reliability-Old-Testament-K-Kitchen/dp/0802803962\r\n\r\nThe work of Egyptologist James K. Hoffmeier: \r\nhttps://www.amazon.com/Israel-Egypt-Evidence-Authenticity-Tradition/dp/019513088X\r\n\"James Hoffmeier examines the most current Egyptological evidence and argues that it supports the biblical record concerning Israel in Egypt.\"\r\n   \r\nhttps://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Israel-Sinai-Authenticity-Wilderness/dp/0199731691 \r\n\"Ancient Israel in Sinai: The Evidence for the Authenticity of the Wilderness Tradition 1st Edition\"\r\n\r\nPatterns of Evidence is a balanced presentation of arguments for and against Exodus with leading Egyptologists, including some who don't believe that Exodus happened : http://patternsofevidence.com/","subreddit_name":"AskAChristian","author":"luvintheride"},{"body":"\u0026gt; So we have the single instance of a king being hated by his own people, which was unsuccessful\r\n\r\nNo.  That citation is just an example of a pattern that is known to repeat for thousands of years in diverse cultures, languages and geographies. It's still going on today. \r\n \r\n\u0026gt; then the Egyptians did keep records of the Israelites and made no mention of the Plagues or miracles\r\n\r\nThere are some traces of evidence in the scholarly resources that I mentioned.   Again, it's been many years since I went through those.     If you are serious about investigating these things, I recommend using those scholarly sources.  You'll get what you pay for on Reddit : \r\n \r\nKenneth Kitchen's book, On the Reliability of the Old Testament:   \r\nhttps://www.amazon.com/Reliability-Old-Testament-K-Kitchen/dp/0802803962\r\n   \r\nThe work of Egyptologist James K. Hoffmeier:\r\nhttps://www.amazon.com/Israel-Egypt-Evidence-Authenticity-Tradition/dp/019513088X  \r\n  \r\nhttps://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Israel-Sinai-Authenticity-Wilderness/dp/0199731691\r\n\r\nThis video documentary \"Patterns of Evidence: The Exodus\", has a  balanced view of skeptical and believing scholars: http://patternsofevidence.com/\r\n\r\nThe Hebrew claims of Sodom and Gomorrah and many other sites has been validated by archeologists:\r\n\r\nhttps://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-97778-3\r\n\r\n\u0026gt;  A devastated Egypt would have been remarked on by its neighbors and likely taken advantage of by one of them,  \r\n\r\nDon't you know that the desert on both side of the Nile kept some areas relatively isolated? \r\n   \r\n\u0026gt;  It is unlikely that the 603,550 adult males plus women and children mentioned in the Exodus story would have gone unremarked by contemporary records. \r\n\r\nI showed 53 biblical references that have been validated by archeology.   We also have Jesus who testified of Adam, Abraham, Moses and David as historically valid, and He is the world's most reliable witness.   \r\n\r\nI don't believe that any amount of evidence can satisfy a skeptic though.  People have an infinite capacity to ignore evidence.    There are atheists today who don't believe that they are Male or Female, despite objective physical evidence at arm's length.  So, no amount of evidence is going to satisfy a skeptic. \r\n   \r\nhttps://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/people-cultures-in-the-bible/people-in-the-bible/50-people-in-the-bible-confirmed-archaeologically/","subreddit_name":"AskAChristian","author":"luvintheride"}]}