What is Reddit's opinion of Story: Substance, Structure, Style and the Principles of Screenwriting?

From 3.5 billion Reddit comments

Plenty. They just don't dig deeper enough, even with a billion dollar excavator.

The other thing the current existing writers for local dramas could have done is to, gasp, read a book on screenwriting by the likes of Robert McKee, instead of attending some dubious seminar by certain persons who can't stop posing in front of their Mercedes.

> Until I decide to write a book after finding inspiration in the A Song of Ice and Fire and The Witcher series.

So, this gives me a bit of pause. Most of us who pick up our pens are pretty heavy readers before we get started.

That said, I would rather encourage than discourage, so I'm going to recommend a book to help get you started: Story: Substance, Structure, Style and the Principles of Screenwriting, by Robert McKee. I only purchased this book a few weeks ago, and I have been kicking myself ever since for not getting it years ago (I've been writing on a professional level since 1999, and this book has raised my game). It's not just for screenwriting - it will give you a very good idea of how stories work on a structural and mechanical level, from plotting to character development.

Here's the buy link from Amazon Smile (which donates money from each purchase to a charity of your choice): https://smile.amazon.com/Story-Substance-Structure-Principles-Screenwriting/dp/0060391685/ref=rvi_sccl_6/131-2124249-3477910?pd_rd_w=9Fqr9&content-id=amzn1.sym.f5690a4d-f2bb-45d9-9d1b-736fee412437&pf_rd_p=f5690a4d-f2bb-45d9-9d1b-736fee4124...

(I would also strongly recommend On Writing, by Stephen King.)

It's not a film, but if you haven't read Robert McKee's Story you should. Ostensibly a book about screenwriting, it taught me more about the structure of film (and storytelling) than probably any other critical work ever has.

I should have this book by friday: Amazon: Story: Substance, Structure, Style and the Principles of Screenwriting

Mostly looking for movies, I am more of a visual person, but thank you!

It's a great book for just about any field - it helps teach the reader how to effectively tell a story, which in turn helps one appreciate stories more. I think Story by Robert McKee is also a great book on story-writing (screenplays, this case), and also a potentially valuable book for many more people than just aspiring writers. Incidentally, it's been recommended reading by several prominent comic book writers (such as Brian Michael Bendis).

Here’s a book on screenwriting but pretty much any book on storytelling will talk about this.

Book: https://www.amazon.com/Story-Substance-Structure-Principles-Screenwriting/dp/0060391685/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=STORY&qid=1572895252&sr=8-2

Read all of Robert McKee's books.

Story:
https://www.amazon.com/Story-Substance-Structure-Principles-Screenwriting/dp/0060391685/

Dialogue:
https://www.amazon.com/Dialogue-Verbal-Action-Stage-Screen/dp/1455591912/

Character:
https://www.amazon.com/Character-Role-Design-Stage-Screen/dp/1455591955/

Read these books:

Story by Robert McKee

The Art of Dramatic Writing by Lajos Egri

Making Movies by Sidney Lumet

Shot By Shot by Steve D. Katz

In the Blink of an Eye by Walter Murch

Then move to LA, try to get some production or office gigs as a PA, make as many friends as possible in the industry, and work your way into a writer's room. From there it's just a matter of impressing the right people with a) your work ethic b) your shining personality and c) your ideas. (Providing people with free alcohol and drugs is pretty helpful too. Pro-Tip: writer's LOVE Adderall, and there's a great dive bar called The Drawing Room where tortured geniuses like to drink).

Impress the right person until they ask you for a pilot script. Boom. Easy peasy lemon squeezy.

Please note that this will take about 10 maybe even 20 years of your life, so be sure to set aside some time. Good luck!

List of mentioned books (to Amazon without any ref code):

• Story — Robert Mckee
• The Art of Dramatic Writing — Lajos Egri
• The Moral Premise — Dr. Stanley Williams
• Screenplay — Syd Field
• The Hero's Journey — Joseph Campbell
• The Writers Journey — Christopher Vogler
• The Heroine's Journey — Maureen Murdock
• Making a Good Script Great — Linda Seger
• The Third Act — Drew Yanno
• The Screenwriter's Workbook — Syd Field
• Four Screenplays — Syd Field
• Rewrite — Paul Chitlik
• Backwards & Forwards — David Ball

Story by Robert McKee. This will show you The Matrix.

Story Grid by Shawn Coyne. This book will take your novel from vague concept to power-outline.

Also excellent is /r/Mistborn's lecture series, available for free on the Youtubes. It's aimed at fantasy and sci-fi writing but has plenty of relevance for any other genre.

I've had two successful self-pubbed novels with a third one coming soon and these are the resources that took me from scrub to author.

Lord I'm never going to be able to watch a movie the same way again. As revolutionary as Story was to my understanding of film.

Firstly, film, much like any other art, doesn't have a degree requirement; if you can do it, you have a shot, however having a degree in it doesn't hurt - if nothing else, it's a way to prove you've learned the basics (but not a necessary way, or the only way for that matter). Of course, I'm probably not the best to say it'll be easy without the degree - mine is in theater - but I know for a fact it isn't a necessity.

MFAs are quite respected in the industry - largely because it means that a university felt like you were worth the effort - but it's not a necessity. If you're serious and have the time and money to invest in a graduate program, it can't hurt (assuming it's from a reputable university: University of Southern California, UCLA, NYU, the American Film Institute are some top ones)

Regardless of your degree, check out your film, theater, and literature departments for courses you might be able to take on screenwriting and playwriting (and even basic creative writing; it can help to be academically reminded of the basics of how to make a good story).

I ESPECIALLY recommend a basic screenwriting course; if nothing else, to make sure you get it in your head how to format one. If you try and sell a poorly formatted script, it won't even be read (and I'm not joking about that, it's one of the cardinal rules). If you can't get into one/your college doesn't offer one, try to find everything you can online about formatting, because it is that important.

Read screenplays. One of my top chrome sites is the Internet Movie Script Database. Read the scripts for movies you love. Read the scripts for the movies your friends and your s/o love. Read the scripts for the movies that AMPAS ostensibly loves. Read the scripts that critics love. Read the ones that they hate, that you hate, that everyone hates. Try and find the connections between the good ones and the bad ones. Get a feel for pacing. Get a feel for what makes them GOOD.

If you can, watch the movie after you've read! Hell, keep the screenplay up AS you watch, so you can see how words on a page translate to images on a screen.

This is especially important since, while there is no such thing as a writer who can't improve, in the film industry, there is such a thing as a hopeless script that can't work, and if you can get good at identifying those scripts and ideas, the more time you'll save yourself.

With that said - don't discount your ideas or scripts until you know that they don't belong on film. Don't surrender ideas prematurely. And even if you reach that decision, it doesn't mean that the idea was bad, just that it's an idea better suited to the pages of a novel or the lights of the stage. It's really surprising how fickle film can be in regards to the kind of stories that work. Screenwriters have to dance this dance really well - I'd say they have to voluntarily "give up" ideas more than playwrights or novelists do.

If you ever feel discouraged, use this exercise: picture your favorite script. Picture yourself writing one just like it, one as good, one as memorable and admirable. Because there is nothing stopping you, and you can do it, you just need to see that you can.

If you have enough time/units/etc., take acting courses. I'm quite biased because I'm a theater actor, but in my opinion, if you plan on writing scripts, you need to have a basic, working understanding of the processes and efforts that go into the actors' craft. After all, what sets scriptwriters apart from other authors is the fact that what's on the page will only be read by the people who will actually be seen. Being able to anticipate issues can make your script easier on them, and consequently, create a better end product.

Look into some of the cinema or performing arts groups around campus. I can't speak for every college, but there are usually a few clubs dedicated to putting on theater or making film, and being able to interact and work with these groups will help you get a general feel for how things are created. It'll be especially helpful if these theater/film orgs produce work by student writers, in which case try to get your work produced.

In the same vein, try everything. Even if you fancy yourself a writer, don't be afraid to dip your toes in acting, directing, design, stage management...even if you just take an assistant director role, or are a PA, it'll give you unique insights into the whole process.

Try to get people to read your scripts. You're too close to them to be objective. Regard every word they say to you, especially the negative comments (because in the end, it's the negative comments that turn into good changes), and figure out why (and ask!) what makes them feel that way. Don't take criticism and critiques personally. If you can't help but take it personally, pick a new field, because the world of screenwriting is nothing if not critique and rewrite.

Intern if you can, and keep an eye open for open script calls, studios occasionally do them.

I am obligated to suggest that you read "Story" by Robert McKee. I am then obligated to tell you that he's full of shit, and you shouldn't really listen to him, but he's right, and it's important you know what he has to say.

Every professional screenwriter has a love/hate relationship with that man and that book. It's just how it is. He's right, and everyone hates that. It's also kind of an industry in-joke: if you invite someone over to your house, and say you're a writer, they'll look to see if you have this book on your shelf.

In a more personal suggestion, I also recommend you read Blake Snyder's - rest his soul - "Save the Cat", which I feel like is a much more helpful and good book - not to mention an easier and more fulfilling read. He breaks down the basic formula in a very constructive way, and it's just generally a helpful book on the craft of screenwriting. In my opinion, this should be the screenwriter's bible, and not Story, but hey.

If you have spare time, read John August's blog. It's good, and helpful, and fun, and generally a nice resource.

Don't take this as a definitive list; everyone has their own little techniques and tricks, and these are just my opinions. But, if you're willing to try and dive in, you're already on the way. Just keep at it, keep learning, and do your best to never give up.

TL;DR: SCREENWRITING, BITCHES

[[Edited for nitpicks...]]

No, hang on.

What I said is that I grew up in a dysfunctional family in New Mexico. There's absolutely zero interest in that.

What interests you is the way I presented it. This is something that Robert McKee points out at great length - a good storyteller can have you hanging on the edge of your seat telling you about her commute into work, while a bad storyteller can make you look for the doors as she tells you about the time she was kidnapped by Iranians.

I really don't think my life is any more interesting than anyone else's - I might be better at expressing my enthusiasm for it, though.

It really isn't about me no matter how many people wish it were.

Extremely passionate about writing. I'm the son of a novelist and I guess I really want to follow in their footsteps. That said, my focus is more on screenwriting, but I enjoy all mediums.

As for reading material, I would suggest Story and Screenwriting From the Soul.

I agree with ElDiablo.

Overall:

• Your prose is rough.

• Several grammatical mistakes. Changing of verb tenses. Misuse of metaphors.

• Dialogue is uneven: Good & smart in some sports, awkward in others.

• The protagonist is too passive; he doesn't seem to want anything. When the plot kicks up a notch, he meets little to no resistance. The resolution comes too easily. Something needs to be at risk for Fergus in every scene.

• Odd and uneven use of detail. You vividly describe Fergus' room and an old lady's yard ... but not much else. Pick your focus carefully. When you describe something, you're visually underlining it in the reader's mind and saying, "Hey! Pay attention! This part here is important!"

• I admire the hell out of your pacing. To be honest, given the roughness of the first few paragraphs, I didn't think I'd bother to read more than a page. But given your skill at setting scenes and moving in and out of them quickly & well, I not only finished reading the entire thing but enjoyed doing so.

• You've got a great eye. Despite some awkward phrasing, I could easily picture Fergus' room and everything about that old lady. These parts were outstanding.

• “What’ll you have?” asked Jane. “The usual.” “We ain’t got no rye bread,” a voice yelled from the kitchen. This exchange had me a little jealous. Clever and well done.

• This piece shows a lot of potential, but you also have a lot of work to do. (Both of those are postives, though, so don't get discouraged).

Some suggestions:

• Remember to show, don't tell. You don't have to implicitly tell us that the town is "dying." Use your descriptions to relay that kind of information, buy making reference to run down storefronts, empty streets on a Saturday night, shuttered houses, and the like. The same goes for the "tired" townspeople. Point out that when Ferg first arrives at the greasy spoon -- the only restaurant in town -- he's the sole customer yet again, even though it's dinner time and he's already been there twice today. Things like that.

• Ruthlessly cut out anything that doesn't move your story along. Even though I love the descriptions of Ferg's room and the old lady's house and yard, they have nothing at all to do with the rest of the story. Especially the old lady. She needs to go. The same could be said for Ferg's drinking at the beginning -- it has no dramatic impact on the rest of the story.

• As an alternative, provide more episodes with Fergus and "regular" townspeople. That way you can get across the contrast between everyday working people, Fergus, and his newfound criminal activities. This will add a little more texture and depth to what would otherwise be a straightforward pulp piece.

• Watch that dialogue. People speak to communicate information (or hide it) in the most efficient way possible. They don't usually include information that the other person already knows, eg: "You know that widow, Miss Smith? Lives outside of town?" Of course he knows her, and Jerry already knows that. So maybe when Ferg walks in, Jerry is packing up her order and says "Fergie, I need you to take this over to Mrs Smith," without even saying hello (which tells us just a little bit about their relationship).

• Try to be a little bit more disciplined in your drama. So the old lady is nuts. Good. But the CIA thing is too broad, too silly, and too obvious. Maybe you never say she's crazy and the characters don't either. Maybe you imply it (ie show don't tell) by having her order a ton of pet supplies -- like cat food, cat litter, whatever -- even though she has no pets. And Jerry is happy to fill the orders because his business is slacking (which tells us a little bit about that kind of person he is, taking minor advantage over some old lady). The same goes for guys like "the goatee." (Great name, by the way). The most interesting thugs and villains in stuff like this are the last guys that actually behave like thugs and villains. Everything they do is verbal, they rarely resort to physical violence, and they never make idle threats. After all, you're not writing about goodfellas in Brooklyn. You're writing about people in a small town -- places where you can say nasty, terrible things through implication while smiling at your victims.

• Pick and single scam or criminal enterprise and research the hell out of it. It's not believable, as it stands, that anyone is running drugs and diamonds and whatever else through some shit town in the middle of nowhere. I knew a guy once who worked produce farms in Georgia. He had tons of crazy stories about how the farmers would do all sorts of illegal shit around seasonal vegetables in order to make tons of money. Seasonal vegetables .. like tomatoes. It sounds ludicrous, but the stories were fascinating.

• If you haven't already, pick up a copy of Robert McKee's Story. The book's focus is screenwriting, but it's really about structure. It might help you with character motivations and plotting.

Anyway, keep working at it. With more practice I think you're going to be great.

Research.

I also would like to suggest a book called, "Story" by Robert Mckee. It doesn't really cover the formatting of screenplays, but that information is openly available with a google search. There is also software that deals with this. I know Scrivener has a template for use.

A story is more fragile and rare than a dinner (of course, I'm not a culinary expert (far from it), so perhaps a culinary expert would say that a dinner is just as fragile as a story, who knows).

Take a great film, or book. Change ONE character decision and you may actually now have a mediocre, or even bad story. Sounds crazy but it's true - this is why authors slaver over the things so much.

And here's the other point, bringing it back to the culinary idea. In video games, when they make these "branching stories", its not like they make them on the spot based on what you ask for. They have to make ALL of the possibilities beforehand even if you never pick any of them. This means divided resources. This means divided storytelling resources. What if that chef had to cook everything you could possibly order before you chose? You'd certainly have a difference in quality.

>the branching path story structure was mainly considered for children.

Hmm... I wonder why that might be. Same reason story in pro wrestling is bad, story in porn is bad, etc? COULD IT BE that when you throw an ulterior motive into a story (be it 'it needs to function in this gamebook', 'there needs to be lots of wrestling', 'there needs to be lots of fuckin', or 'there needs to be lots of masterchiefs shooting all the time'), the story is damaged?

Oh yeah. That YU-NO game, I'm sure its story is AWESOME.

---

A good story is a story that commits to a controlling idea, preferably an interesting controlling idea. Protagonists and antagonists continually make the most conservative actions available to them until there is a climax, and on this climax the protagonist must make a difficult decision which illustrates how he has changed.

This is the most important decision of the story, and if a player is allowed to come in and fuck with it, it's going to suck. If a player ISNT allowed to come in and fuck with it, then why is it a game?

I have this book in PDF and I really recommend it.

I'm afraid I don't understand your last bullet point. EDIT: Oh wait, you mean in my blog post? Tell me what you specifically want me to change from and to... PM me with it if you prefer and no problem.

Story by Robert McKee - It all comes down to being able to tell a good story.

Also, Rebel Without a Crew by Robert Rodriguez is incredibly inspirational. That book is awesome.