{"product":{"product_id":"0061551821","title":"Surprised by Hope: Rethinking Heaven, the Resurrection, and the Mission of the Church","price":"25.54","image_url":"https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41UGxXbDCIL._SL500_.jpg","url":"https://www.amazon.com/dp/0061551821"},"comments":[{"body":"You bet - maybe you'd enjoy this book by NT Wright:. \r\n\r\nSurprised by Hope: Rethinking Heaven, the Resurrection, and the Mission of the Church \r\n\r\nhttps://www.amazon.com/Surprised-Hope-Rethinking-Resurrection-Mission/dp/0061551821\r\n\r\n\r\nIt talks about the resurrection and bringing new kingdom life to this earth today.","subreddit_name":"Christianity","author":"Trigger_Hippy"},{"body":"I feel the same way, friend! \r\n\r\nAnd I do! I actually believe that when we're resurrected we will live on the new earth, but ne in perfect harmony with God and our fellow humans. I think we'll likely still have jobs of some sort and maybe even some challenges, but that these things will come with pain, hate, or death. It will be life as it is meant to be. I'm very excited for it :)\r\n\r\nI would recommend N.T. Wright's book [Surprised by Hope](https://www.amazon.com/Surprised-Hope-Rethinking-Resurrection-Mission/dp/0061551821). I'm only about halfway throughout, but it really helps to reorient.","subreddit_name":"AskAChristian","author":"pjsans"},{"body":"If you want to read a fantastic book about this I’d suggest “Surprised by Hope” by NT Wright. \r\n\r\n\r\nSurprised by Hope: Rethinking Heaven, the Resurrection, and the Mission of the Church https://www.amazon.com/dp/0061551821/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_UQuqFb1MEFYFR","subreddit_name":"AskAPriest","author":"Sparky0457"},{"body":"Do you know what the Bible actually says about the end?\r\n\r\nIf not I’d suggest reading this. \r\n\r\n\r\nSurprised by Hope: Rethinking Heaven, the Resurrection, and the Mission of the Church https://www.amazon.com/dp/0061551821/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_xDlmFbS37EZXM","subreddit_name":"AskAPriest","author":"Sparky0457"},{"body":"So, what makes theology awkward for explaining Heaven is that there are technically two. There's the place where God and the Saints are now, and the Heaven that will eventually come.\r\n\r\nRight now, Heaven is where God is. It's a non-physical place, sometimes referred to as Paradise, and overall it's pretty nice. We really don't know anything about this, other than the fact that God, his people and the angels are there. It's great, because you're in the presence of God, but it's not the end. \r\n\r\nThe hope is for the Heaven to come, as described in Revelation 21. This is following an event called The Resurrection, where the dead are risen to life, and a moment called The Final/Last Judgement, where all souls are judged. This Heaven is physical, and it's merged with our universe. The saints of God will live on Earth, but Earth is being remade as part of this process with Heaven effectively merged into this new universe. \r\n\r\nWings/Halos are elements of popular/religious art, but there's no real theology to justify this. The Saints will have crowns, but the exact nature of them is purely speculative. We know that our bodies will be human (similar to Christ's resurrection body), but any modifications to that form beyond that are also speculative.\r\n\r\n[You might want to check out Surprised by Hope by N.T. Wright to understand what's going on here.](https://www.amazon.ca/Surprised-Hope-Rethinking-Resurrection-Mission/dp/0061551821)","subreddit_name":"Christianity","author":"AgentSmithRadio"},{"body":"As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, N.T. Wright does a great job unpacking this specific conversation. I recommend you seek him out if you have not done so already.\r\n\r\n\u0026amp;#x200B;\r\n\r\nI haven't read it yet, but I've heard that [*Surprised by Hope*](https://www.amazon.com/Surprised-Hope-Rethinking-Resurrection-Mission/dp/0061551821) is the best place to start.","subreddit_name":"Reformed","author":"Repentant_Revenant"},{"body":"If you want to argue that talking point, I'm afraid that you have to justify if theologically. Otherwise, while you may believe you are correct, the rest of the world can only see it as a baseless attack. There needs to be an corresponding argument and theological claims in order to back up your statement.\r\n\r\nIf all you do is say, \"you're not a true Christian,\" you shut down reasonable attempts at discourse, which is why this chain devolved into bickering. You could say, \"I strongly disagree with this view of divine command and here's why I believe it is unChristian,\" and you'd be fine. There's a strong difference between attacking an idea and a person.\r\n\r\nN.T. Wright touches on OP's line of thinking in his book [Surprised by Hope](https://www.amazon.ca/Surprised-Hope-Rethinking-Resurrection-Mission/dp/0061551821) in an attempt to answer the same question. The idea that the Saints will be fine (even comforted) with God's justification in the expression of his justice is not a new idea or even a rare one, it's just a very unpopular one in laymen's public discourse outside of say, Baptist circles.\r\n\r\nIf you attack the ideas (within the rule set) and not the person, you'll never hear a 2.3 citation ever again. If you don't attack the ideas, opinions will never be changed and it really does just comes across as baseless, no matter how much sympathy you garner from those who agree with you.\r\n\r\nI'd love to see more people come to Christ, I spend more than a chunk of my spare time doing exactly that in real life. I know that the enthusiasm can be a very real thing but we need to be wary with how our words will be perceived by those on the other side of the conversation. ","subreddit_name":"Christianity","author":"AgentSmithRadio"},{"body":"I think that's a very secularly influenced and otherwise misguided view of what both heaven and the hope of the afterlife are for Christians.\r\n\r\nIf you're interested in the topic, I'd recommend N.T. Wright's [_Surprised by Hope_](https://www.amazon.com/Surprised-Hope-Rethinking-Resurrection-Mission/dp/0061551821). It's all of $2 for an electronic version (That's a steal! I was expecting around $10).\r\n\r\nTo address some of your points:\r\n\r\nThere are people who are reasonably excited about dying and going to heaven. Many particularly religious people die peacefully and eagerly. Hearing their stories is often very touching.\r\n\r\nOne reason we're not all fatalistic is that we have the unique opportunity to be God's hands in the world today; to participate in the bringing about his Kingdom, his perfect dream for the world, today. Here on earth.","subreddit_name":"Christianity","author":"Agrona"},{"body":"I don't mean to say that the heaven/hell question isn't important, but it can be a bit distracting from the bigger picture. Have you read [Surprised by Hope](http://www.amazon.com/Surprised-Hope-Rethinking-Resurrection-Mission/dp/0061551821)? It really helped me break down which of my beliefs about the afterlife came from the popular culture and which actually came from Christianity. And even among Christians like myself, a lot of the commonly held beliefs about the afterlife come more from Plato and Dante than the New Testament. I'd be happy to send it to you if you want.","subreddit_name":"Christianity","author":"FrontwaysCupid"},{"body":"No problem.\r\n\r\nThat's a really common definition of the main goal of the Christian life (to get to heaven when you die). But  *your* definition is actually a really important part of it as well. I hope you'll find that there is more to Christianity than either a.) doing a ton of good works, or b.) accepting a \"get out of jail free card\" *for the sole purpose of ending up in heaven when you die.* \r\n\r\nI find Christian eschatology (heaven/hell stuff) to be more satisfying than its caricatures: eternal Paradise, feasting on grapes, playing harps, etc.. Those are common images of what heaven looks like, but they're not really accurate. A lot of people here have probably read [Surprised by Hope](http://www.amazon.com/Surprised-Hope-Rethinking-Resurrection-Mission/dp/0061551821/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8\u0026amp;qid=1448853314\u0026amp;sr=8-1\u0026amp;keywords=surprised+by+hope). I recommend you give it a read as well. It might help you reframe things a bit as you're reading the Bible (for example, helping you understand what \"kingdom of heaven\" is when it comes up in the gospels - a correct understanding of the term lends a much different meaning to statements like that).","subreddit_name":"Christianity","author":"FrontwaysCupid"},{"body":"NT Wright (former Anglican Bishop of Durham) has addressed this quite a bit. [Here](http://ntwrightpage.com/2016/07/12/farewell-to-the-rapture/) is a shorter treatment. His book [Surprised by Hope](https://www.amazon.com/dp/0061551821/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awdb_t1_n50pCbNS1J0ZS) is fairly accessible yet scholarly.  \r\n\r\nIn summary, the rapture comes from a series of Scriptures strung together from Daniel, 2 Thessalonians, Matthew, and Revelation. None of them are overtly about a bunch of people suddenly going missing while the Earth goes bonkers. Rapture is primarily a Western concept that had a few pockets of belief until it was popularized in the 19th century. It has never been embraced by Catholics, Orthodox, Methodists, Anglicans, and other major denominations.  \r\n\r\nMost of what Scripture suggests about the future is centered around the Resurrection, which is overtly discussed in multiple places. Wright suggests Resurrection is the great hope of Christianity.","subreddit_name":"AcademicBiblical","author":"bradmeyerlive"},{"body":"While not bishops anymore I would still strongly recommend looking into N. T. Wright and John Shelby Spong. Specifically, I would check out [Surprised by Hope](https://www.amazon.com/Surprised-Hope-Rethinking-Resurrection-Mission/dp/0061551821) (Wright) and [Liberating the Gospels](https://www.amazon.com/Liberating-Gospels-Reading-Bible-Jewish/dp/0060675578) (Spong). \r\n\r\nAgain, both are no longer bishops but once were and today remain influential contemporary figures in the Church.","subreddit_name":"Episcopalian","author":"Cultural_Marxist__"},{"body":"I’d offer this book. \r\n\r\nSurprised by Hope: Rethinking Heaven, the Resurrection, and the Mission of the Church https://www.amazon.com/dp/0061551821/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_i_62NJVV1RXAK4DM49CP2Q","subreddit_name":"AskAPriest","author":"Sparky0457"},{"body":"John Darby, a preacher in the early 1800's, basically made it up (probably with good intentions). His teachings influenced Cyrus Scofield, author of the Scofield Reference Bible (the first study Bible). Scofield's study Bible influence a lot of people for a long time in America. More recently, authors Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye wrote fictional books dramatizing the rapture and related ideas (*The Late Great Planet Earth* and The *Left Behind* series, respectively), which gained enormous popularity in America and nowadays form the primary source of people's belief in the rapture.\r\n\r\nSome people have attempted to use a handful of Bible verses to \"prove\" the rapture, (mainly 1 Thess 4:17) but a brief glance at scholarly studies of those verses dispels that interpretation pretty quickly. There is no verse in the Bible that unambiguously refers to the rapture. It is an incorrect interpretation created and perpetuated by (well-meaning) amateurs. No serious Biblical scholar accepts it.\r\n\r\nAmerican Fundamentalists are really the only branch of Christianity that believe in the rapture. Most Christians across the world do not, and it's only about 200 years old.\r\n\r\nI came from a fundamentalist church, so I understand how difficult it can be to hear and process stuff like this. Do your own research and give yourself time to figure it out. I highly recommend [Surprised by Hope](https://www.amazon.com/Surprised-Hope-Rethinking-Resurrection-Mission/dp/0061551821), by N.T. Wright, if you're interested in what the Bible actually says about eschatology (the end times). I also recommend [The Bible Project](https://bibleproject.com) in general; they've been unimaginably helpful to me in all areas Bible-related.","subreddit_name":"Christianity","author":"RyanTDaniels"},{"body":"NT Wright: “am I a joke to you?”\r\n\r\n\r\nhttps://www.amazon.com/Surprised-Hope-Rethinking-Resurrection-Mission/dp/0061551821","subreddit_name":"dankchristianmemes","author":"micahnotmika20"}]}