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The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark?
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The book "The Demon Haunted World" by Carl Sagan is a less aggressive introduction to the type of thinking that leads to atheism.
I cannot recommend Carl Sagan's The Demon Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark enough. Some parts of it may be a bit dated, but the chapter entitled "The Fine Art of Baloney Detection" is timeless and it may be exactly what you're looking for.
Take your time and don't feel like you have to rush this. No one can tell you what you should believe, only you can decide what's right for you.
As for book recommendations I always recommend Demon-Haunted World as a good place to begin. It serves as a kind of primer for learning to distinguish what's true from what we only think to be true.
Seconded. This is a fun little book!
u/Sarmancat, you may also want to check out the Granddaddy of them all, The Demon-Haunted World by Carl Sagan. If you haven't read Demon-Haunted World, I would highly, highly recommend it. It's the book I recommend more than any other book, and it's right up your alley.
I’m not just making this up to make you feel bad. What I’m talking about, the personal gratification, the superiority complex, the lack of education in science and history...all of it...it’s studied psychology. It’s a type of thing a human brain typically does under certain specific conditions.
I don’t know how old you are, hopefully young enough to grow up. If you’re older you’re fucked, it’s probably too late. The mindset you have is a liability for you in life. You need to learn how to learn. You need to be better at detecting bullshit. It takes effort but it’s worthwhile for a million reasons, and being smarter and more analytical and intellectually curious never hurt anyone.
There’s a great book by Carl Sagan called The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark. He talks about exactly this stuff and I promise if you start reading you won’t want to put it down, it’s good. I’m sure there is an audiobook version too.
You can do better.
Agree about Carl Sagan. This book is especially designed to help people develop a healthy, knowledgeable skepticism. It's also everywhere in PDF form as well, I believe.
You may wish to consider some science podcasts too. Bill Nye has a podcast, as does Neil Degrasse Tyson. Those are good for people less knowledgeable about science. Plus you can listen on the go.
Religion is a part of the "supernatural". I put that in quotes because there is no evidence for the supernatural, whether we're speaking of gods, witchcraft, spirits, ghosts, or otherwise.
You are right in that they seem to go hand in hand. Why? Because both concepts rely on accepting things without evidence. There are Christians here in the West that are terrified of witchcraft, but they believe in it because they accept supernatural claims in the first place. It is true that belief in witchcraft here isn't as prevalent as in Africa, but those that believe in it share the same types of thought processes as those that live in Africa. Likewise, Christians here are leaving their churches because they are starting to fall for the newest rage, "Q" conspiracy theories. Why? Again because they share the same mindset. None of them stress critical thinking, standards of evidence, or media literacy. They accept ideas on faith, on the word of others, and readily give their belief to such things.
One thing many former Christians here struggle with after they walk away from Christianity is that they still have a fear of hell for some time, even as they do not believe any longer in God. When you are surrounded by many people that believe and tell you something is true, it becomes harder to challenge and harder to break out of such a belief. Such fears do fade with time, however. Some even seek therapy or counseling for help with it. It does take courage, especially when your entire peer group believes in such things.
I hope you find your way out of things, and I hope you find peace. One book I always recommend for critical thinking is by Carl Sagan.
I know my advice is not from an especially African point of view, nevertheless I wish you peace.
Like we have failed half the population, thanks to the rise of anti intellectualism on the right in the religious nationalism movement they are so dumb and delusional at this point they won't even be be getting vaccinated for Covid. Carl Sagan predicted this in his 1995 book "The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark"
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“Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time—when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers are in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness."
If you are seriously interested in this subject (and are not trolling), I highly suggest reading this:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Demon-Haunted-World-Science-Candle/dp/0345409469
If anything, the historical background on witches and UFOs is highly interesting. If you finish this book, you won't regret it...
Gibt sicher wissenschaftlichere Textbücher wenn sie sich wirklich mit Statistik und Studiendesign auseinandersetzen will, aber es hört sich so an, als ob du sie erstmal auf eine wissenschaftliche Denkweise leiten willst.
Da empfehle ich The Demon-Haunted World von Carl Sagan. In Deutscher Übersetzung habe ich leider nur alte Versionen gefunden, "Der Drache in meiner Garage. Oder die Kunst der Wissenschaft, Unsinn zu entlarven".
Kannst dir aber auch selber Bücher raussuchen die deiner Meinung nach ihrer Situation besser helfen. Du suchst nämlich nach "Scientific Literacy" wie es auf English heißt, aber leider keine gute Deutsche Übersetzung hat.
Explains pretty much all the hocus pocus behind, not only religion, but ghosts, UFO's, junk science, psychics, etc.
None of that shit is real, y'all. There might be aliens, but they likely are not here on Earth.
I'm very familiar with Carl Sagan's work, and he is someone I really admire. His book Demon Haunted World: Science and a Candle in the Dark is a favorite of mine.
Being productive is fine, especially when necessary, but as human beings we also require rest, relaxation, and pleasurable things. I don't believe masturbation is at all an issue. Like most anything else, it could be taken to extremes, and you know this is the case if it interferes with how you live your life. There is a lot of talk about sex or masturbation addiction, but most of it is religious guilt tripping, in my opinion. Masturbation, male or female is normal and in most cases actually healthy for the body and mind.
Good luck to you!
I am proud of you. I hope that this has opened up your eyes to actually thinking for yourself and learning to understand science and actual experts.
May I suggest a book for you, it is <em>The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark</em> by Carl Sagan. It is a book on how to think clearly and scientifically, and on how to understand and detect bullshit. If you want, DM and I'll mail you a copy of this book.
I mean if you want a great book on skepticism, there's almost nothing better than Carl Sagan's The Demon Haunted World. It's a great book about science, what it is and how we need to think skeptically and develop the critical thinking skills we need to be informed individuals. And most importantly, what awaits us when we allow ourselves to slip in our skeptical faculties. Despite being a book from about 1995, Sagan predicted many of our current issues and addresses the paranormal and super natural in several chapters.
As I began to question TSCC I started to read about critical thinking skills, and everything turned from black and white to color. Why had I not been taught those skills at home, at school, even college? See Carl Sagans' book Demon Haunted World
https://www.amazon.com/Demon-Haunted-World-Science-Candle-Dark/dp/0345409469
Yes! But again, “Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future!” — Niels Bohr
Picking individual stocks that skyrocket is probably less reliable than betting in a Casino.
To win huge as a picker of stocks, you need to be correct about 60% of the time. Below 50%, and you lose all the time.
People forget the losers. I know lots of people that bought Nortel. Hell, I worked for a company that got nearly destroyed because of Nortel.
You can make a bajillion on picking the right stocks. Most people don’t. And the more in the public consciousness a stock is, the more people buy it. It is over valued by any classic means. It was under valued around $4. Now? Now it is going to be the poster child of a lot of people losing their life savings.
I don’t know when that will happen, only that it will return to the mean over time. Unless they pull out major business wins fast, people will be left holding the bag.
It’s fine that you don’t believe me. I could be wrong. But based on what I have seen, I bet there is a 0.1% chance it wins in the long term.
If, in a few years, you ask me how I knew this? The answer is in this book: https://www.amazon.com/Demon-Haunted-World-Science-Candle-Dark/dp/0345409469
Specifically these exact chapters:
The demon-haunted world The dragon in my garage
The other chapters you can skip if you like.
You don't seem to grasp the underlying epistemology here - you're not even asking the right sort of questions.
I strongly recommend you read this: https://www.amazon.com/Demon-Haunted-World-Science-Candle-Dark/dp/0345409469
It'll help you understand why what you believe has nothing to do with science.
> I've already refuted all those misunderstandings and claims, so I'll spare you repeating my responses.
You have not. What you have provided is misdirection and pseudo-scientific assertions. What you have not done is provided peer-reviewed evidence of your claims nor even a falsifiable claim that would support the assertion that a deity exists.
RE: Induction
- Inductive inferences - start with observations and arrive at general conclusions.
- Deductive inferences - start with general knowledge and predict specific observations.
Science primarily cares that theories that predict observations. I.e., the latter. That doesn't mean you cannot build on science to craft new understandings. We can use our theory about how light can be used to predict distances on Earth to predict distances on the Moon. That also means science is rigorous in ensuring that hypotheses are testable by independent sources. Whether you use inductive or deductive reasoning to arrive at a theory matters less than the theory accurately predicts new observations.
Since, we're recommending material to research...
https://www.amazon.com/Demon-Haunted-World-Science-Candle-Dark/dp/0345409469
And I recommend you read up on the scientific method and how we know what we know. In philosophy, this is called epistemology, but it's very critical to science as well. I find it ironic that you're either on a PC or smartphone - technology produced by rigorous adherence to the scientific method - and you're using that technology to attempt to discredit that very method that brought you those tools.
A good primer on this topic is Carl Sagan's "The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark"
It was published in 1997, but the concepts in it about how we can be sure of what what we know still apply today (and if anything, are more important today in this age of conspiracy theories and pseudoscience garbage).
And just as an addendum, YouTube doesn't count as "reading up" on a subject. You can find videos supporting all kinds of nonsense there - from flat Earthers to magic crystals.
Note, I'm currently an atheist. Which doesn't necessarily equate to not being "spiritual". I put the word in quotes simply because it means so many things to so many people.
You mention growing up restricted in your beliefs, as was I, and I think it is important to understand the nature of evidence, and how to keep oneself honest. After all, there’s a whole world out there of conflicting beliefs, and one should do their best to make sure during their search that they aren't fooling themselves.
To that end I recommend The DEMON-HAUNTED WORLD: SCIENCE AS A CANDLE IN THE DARK by Carl Sagan. In the book, Carl teaches how to evaluate evidence, and various types of ways we can keep ourselves honest, which is important because as humans, we have multiple ways of fooling ourselves.
Good luck on your journey.
Don't 'decide' whether to be a Christian or an atheist.
Just keep reading and studying. For biblical history, check out some books by Bart Erhman. For some content on critical thought, Sagan's 'The Demon Haunted World' is pretty good without, I think, shoving you toward a particular conclusion.
Keep reading, keep thinking, and decide for yourself.
And know that your faith, or lack thereof, is entirely your business and no one else's, and (in my opinion) should not be so central to your identity that you care very much who knows about it.
rationality is over-rated, what's not: mysticism. by understanding the common pitfalls of the irrational person, all the way from jungle cargo cults to the very psychics in our society who palm read, we can gauge on our own sense of rationality.
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
“Powerful . . . A stirring defense of informed rationality. . . Rich in surprising information and beautiful writing.”—The Washington Post Book World
quotable excerpt:
“I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time -- when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers are in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness...
The dumbing down of American is most evident in the slow decay of substantive content in the enormously influential media, the 30 second sound bites (now down to 10 seconds or less), lowest common denominator programming, credulous presentations on pseudoscience and superstition, but especially a kind of celebration of ignorance”
― Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
There is a reason these types of things (and other events like alien visitations) often happen in bed - because you were dreaming.
Reading this will hopefully make you feel a little better...
I don't disagree. I do think it is getting worse, it has been for some time, and the internet is not helping.
In the 1960's there was a national fascination with space exploration and going to the moon. Today, there is a fascination with the Kardashians, Joe Exotic, and the NFL (etc. etc. etc.).
Don't get me wrong, I know anti-intellectualism has been a problem for a long time. Sagan wrote a great book in 1995 about combating it (https://www.amazon.com/Demon-Haunted-World-Science-Candle-Dark/dp/0345409469). But I think iphones and the internet have really helped to push it to an extreme we haven't seen in a long time or maybe ever.
Maybe read this: The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark Carl Sagan has such a pleasent way of thinking about people with odd beliefs and how to treat them respectfully. He taught me to be compassionate with my father that had gone off the rails with conspiracies and new age stuff he was trying to push on others. Sagan's advice worked for a long time but I have to say that my patience with this stuff has grown thin recently.
> Astrodientist
It's not real. they're scamming you. Don't pay them another cent. Buy this book instead. Seriously. I wish you the best.
>I mean, that's kind of the crux of the issue, you can't get the exact claim if you aren't understanding the concepts behind the claim (I haven't watched the episode, but i presume it explains them)
I didn't ask to clairfy for my own understanding, I have to ask because I've been through this same argument several times and every time I've gotten different & inconsistent definitions from the other person.
>Gender identity on the other hand is an internal, deeply held sense of what gender you are, which is what liberals (and science) are saying is something that is separate from sex, but also has a biological basis (implausible as that sounds)
So, you think they're arguing that someone can believe that they are something on a spectrum? I don't think that's in any way revolutionary. I can deeply believe I'm an ostrich, or a frog, or some hybrid. Still doesn't make me one.
I've heard 5 people now (just in this thread) tell me science agrees or that they could get me scientific papers on it, but the best anyone has done so far was a link to a British tabloid. I'm starting to think you guy's don't understand credibility / empirical evidence or have just convinced yourselves it's true regardless of reality.
I'd recommend each of you get yourselves a copy of The Demon-Haunted World or find a pdf of it online.
Here's a real shit-sifter for only $11.55. Or as worded by the author, a "bullshit detection kit".
> How do I respond?
You respond by going to Amazon, or another bookseller, and buying The Demon Haunted World. Oh, and don't bother with whoever sent you the article link. They actually did you a favor by setting in motion the chain of events that led you to this book recommendation.
> The fact that you haven't bothered to even Google "scientific arguments against Evolution" is not proof that there's no evidence.
But google isn't really scientific evidence, and the article you linked to fails the credibility test. It isn't hard to find all sorts of conspiracy nutjob theories on google. Just because a website says something, doesn't mean it's true. I'm a scientist. Speaking as someone very well acquainted with what type of evidence and arguments are needed, you need to understand that in order for these arguments to be taken seriously, they need to satisfy rigorous scrutiny by the vast majority of scientists around the world, like you pointed out earlier. That is, you need to find arguments published in Journals like Nature, Science or Cell, which have undergone the review process, and have been independently verified.
If you're more interesed in this way of thinking, I highly recommend Carl Sagan's excellent book, "The Demon Haunted World", that introduces how the scientific method works to the layperson, and how any theory and idea should be critically verified, doubted and analyzed.
This typically involves data and evidence published in peer-reviewed journals, and independently corroborated across many groups. The new theories/arguments should also fit in with the consilience of scientific knowledge.
Evolution is the unifying scientific theory that ties in every single field of biology, from microbiology to developmental biology. The "evidence" against evolution should held to a similarly high standard, which it fails and quite miserably so as well.
I repeat again, intelligent design is just Christian propaganda, doesn't have a shred of scientific evidence, and is a classic example of the right-wing trying to push a Christian law.
> Referring to reality, it was never needed.
Back before humans understood what caused storms, earthquakes, floods, fire, disease, aging, death - they DID need to generate some sort of explanation for these things, as well as practically everything else in their observable universe.
>I don't need to be told by man in general that spirits exist, I perceived it just like gravitation.
You might want to check out this book:
https://www.amazon.com/Demon-Haunted-World-Science-Candle-Dark/dp/0345409469
> As an atheist I'm guessing you would suggest critical thinking.
I'd hope that anyone, regardless of their stance whether they think god(s) exist or not, suggests critical thinking.
> How do I go about "learning how to think not what to think?"
I love Carl Sagan's The Demon Haunted World. It isn't a book about atheism or anything like that (do recognize that he is an atheist and has a naturalistic/materialist mindset though) but does an amazing job at looking at how and why people come to the conclusions they do about things. It discusses the nuances of things such as UFO sightings, Big Foot, how science has been a good and reliable way (I'm not saying it is the only way) of discovering what is reflective of our reality and the world/universe we live in.
I can mail you my copy if you'd like.
To be honest I don't really advocate for books with a [specifically] atheistic perspective, such as God Delusion or god is not Great, because to me it doesn't really matter. Those books, just like Lewis', do more for solidifying whichever way you're already leaning more than they do give you support for deciding which you think is more true.
It shouldn't matter too much what "atheists think" or what "Christians think" when one is exploring their belief about things because you can get hundreds of different perspectives within those groups. I think what matters most is what you think. How do you in your life come to the conclusion on whether something is true or not. I think the key to being able to firmly and confidently decide one's belief is a solid foundation and establishment of your own epistemology. Where do you draw your boundaries? From there you can then start really analyzing what other people are thinking and apply your standards to what they're claiming.
I recommend Sagan's <em>The Demon Haunted World</em> because it does a good job of going into details about what I talked about. Understanding how you think, process claims, and come to the conclusion on whether something is true or not is super important. Yes, Sagan is an atheist and has a naturalistic/materialist perspective on the world but this book isn't really about that.
Hopefully my rambling mess makes sense.
Seeing that you have questions about demons, I suggest reading Carl Sagan's The Demon Haunted World.
If obtaining a copy is difficult let me know, I can help you look.
Wow. It saddens me that some people will so easily jump to extreme conclusions whenever something unexplained happens. Also, by your own admission, you can be manipulated & conned easily. I think that a stronger dose of skepticism would help.
I recommend the book The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark, by Carl Sagan.
Please read A Demon Haunted World, and then come back and let us know how you feel about demons. You broke free of Mormonism, don't get sucked back into literalistic beliefs like demons and biblical inerrancy.
It is very very difficult/futile to reason with unreasonable people. Your dad, my family, mormons in general, and religious people and spiritualists as a whole were often robbed from their early years the ability to reason. Science will always be a candle in the dark of a demon haunted world. http://www.amazon.com/The-Demon-Haunted-World-Science-Candle/dp/0345409469
It's a passage from this book by the way. If you'd like to hear more, I might recommend this. I haven't finished reading it myself though honestly, so I'll make no promises at the moment.
Have you read The Demon Haunted World yet? I've had it on my shelf for a long time, waiting to be read. It will be my first Sagan book, but I've certainly interacted with some of his ideas already.
I'd recommend checking this Carl Sagan classic out to better undestand why people believe the things they do.
I just (literally) started reading Sagan's The Demon-Haunted World which I've heard nothing but good things about it.
$5 off of Amazon for a used version too!
If you are at a university with a good engineering program, you probably have access to other science courses that will really open up your eyes on these topics. I was already an atheist, but after taking a biology course, I really understood evolution. Similarly, taking an astronomy course would teach you about the big bang and the formation of the universe. Keep up the work on your own, but enroll in a couple extra classes outside your major that will expand your view. Any science classes will strengthen your critical thinking skills and you will be able to explore so much more on your own.
I also recommend Demon Haunted World by Carl Sagan as being one of the most influential books to me in shaping how I think and view the world. It's a very easy to read book and it's beautifully written.
Keep your eyes open and enjoy exploring science on your own!
> its clear to see the INCREDIBLY harmful effects on people that real world religous restrictions on human sexuality have caused
This statement is both overly general (as it is throwing the "fire-and-brimstone" religious beliefs in with the "peace and happiness" ones) and not nearly as "clear" as you say it is.
This is just lazy thinking you're doing, here.
Like the good man says in the good book, we are to be most alert to be skeptical of claims that support what we already want to believe.
These statistics and many more are in Carl Sagan's The Demon Haunted World.
The numbers may not be fully up to date as he's recently been having trouble staying abreast of things.
Carl Sagan's The Demon Haunted World.
I would probably find it unremarkable if I were to read it now, but reading it way back when I was 16, it's probably the reason why I pursued a life in science.
"Lightning is Zeus hurling his thunderbolts. Leave it at that." As they have in the past, some people still prefer the demon-haunted world.
> It assists because it shows that perceptions can be inaccurate.
That's a valuable lesson, but you can learn it in a much more useful form by reading Carl Sagan's excellent book The Demon-Haunted World, which has some fascinating discussions of just how our perceptions, thoughts, and memories can betray us. It's a really good read, if you haven't checked it out.
The book recommendation mafia STRIKES AGAIN!
I'm a big fan of this one....
http://www.amazon.com/Demon-Haunted-World-Science-Candle-Dark/dp/0345409469
It starts off discussing UFOs and moves into religion slowly, so it's more about skepticism than religion itself. If they're already rejecting some of religion, then the God Delusion or Letter to a Christian Nation might be more appropriate.
Since I saw The God Delusion up there, and since someone else has already recommended God is Not Great, I'll add The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark. That one might be 'preaching to the choir (especially after reading Cosmos),' but it might give you something to recommend to someone else who you think desperately needs it.
Read the book.
Can't go wrong with Carl Sagan:
https://www.amazon.com/Demon-Haunted-World-Science-Candle-Dark/dp/0345409469
If you can, have a look through the reading / video lists from the resources on the right of this sub.
Two I'd recommend are:
Why I am no longer a Christian (YouTube video series) it's a fairly in depth look at how any why the author's beliefs changed which is very relate-able.
The Demon Haunted World by Carl Sagan, you can easily find the book on amazon or an audio version via YouTube, it's not specifically about religions, but it's about how we can reliably think about what is real.
Whatever happens I'd encourage you to explore what you believe and why, but bear in mind it's a process that can take a while. This isn't a bad thing, so don't be discouraged if you don't find answers straight away.
Have you read <em>The Ethics of Belief</em> by William K. Clifford? You would probably really enjoy it.
EDIT: This is a debate that could go in variety of directions, by the way. Here is some literature and key points on the subject. William James famously responded to Clifford's essay above with a piece titled <em>The Will to Believe</em>. This really is an incredibly interesting topic of discussion that usually ends up getting down to the questions: "What is justified belief?" and "What constitutes a basic belief?"
EDIT 2: You should read Carl Sagan's <em>The Demon-Haunted World</em> if you're interested in this sort of discussion as well. That book changed my life.
I know /r/atheism has a bad reputation on reddit, although people who don't come by to troll typically find that reputation undeserved. But the reason I mention it is because they list some really good resources in their sidebar:
https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/wiki/recommended/reading
https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/wiki/recommended/viewing
https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/wiki/recommended/listening
Two resources I strongly recommend include Carl Sagan's book "A Demon-Haunted World" as a gentle primer on skeptical thinking and Evid3nc3's Youtube playlist on "Why I Am No Longer A Christian."
http://smile.amazon.com/Demon-Haunted-World-Science-Candle-Dark/dp/0345409469/
Read The Demon Haunted World by Carl Sagan.
Also, stop watching and posting about Tucker Carlson FFS.
Cue people complaining that Amazon is trying to convert them to demon worship.
If you’re serious about this and want to do real research outside of jw approved literature, give The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark by Ann Druyan and Carl Sagan a read.
If you’re too scared to read it (I’m being serious, I was once like you), here’s the Wikipidea article that explains it a bit.
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
It saddens me that there are adults in this world that believe in demons.
> How do I separate the real from the fake these days?
You need to develop your epistemic toolbox. Read some on skepticism, and critical thinking.
Sagan's The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark is a good place to start.
Also, here is a good website to get you going: 7 Ways to Improve Your Critical Thinking Skills.
Here it is on Amazon, but it is probably at 1/2 price books or something similar.
> Should I read the bible before I start questioning?
Before you start questioning Christianity in general? No. You don't need to read the Bible to ask questions about it or the things people purport to teach about it.
I also wouldn't force yourself through a long, boring, depressing book if your already in a depressive state. IMO your time is better spent doing something you enjoy. If you feel the need, come back to the Bible when you're in a better place emotionally.
If you're intent on arguing / discussing things with people in the church then reading the Bible is probably worth your time. Otherwise they're my start citing scripture and talking about people or stories you've never heard of and aren't prepared to discuss.
> most of the time it's just flat out boring at best
Holy crap is it ever, especially in the beginning and especially KJV. The material is already exhausting to read and the wording of KJV makes it that much harder.
If you want a book that can help you figure out what you believe and why you believe it, I recommend a classic: The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
Sagan doesn't tell you what to believe, instead he makes the best case a person can for approaching all things with skepticism and making sure that what you do believe is founded on actual evidence. He explains why those things are important does an fantastic job debunking a lot of pseudoscience along the way.
The whole preface and first chapter are available on Amazon.
Sagan's Demon Haunted World is excellent and there are lots of other books out there...but your are probably too young for it. Instead you can talk about the cosmic teapot and the dragon in your garage...it's asking them to prove that you don't and then tell them that's what their god is.
Mine? My proudest moment was when, as a 4 y/o, we were doing halloween and stopped at a church event to get some candy. My kid was coloring and an old church lady was looming and running on about jesus...my demon spawn finally stopped, looked at her, and asked "who's Jesus?"...gal almost had a heart attack.
You make fun of it. You ridicule it. Kids recognize that stuff easily. Zombie Jesus is a common theme in my household when god comes up.
Tell them straight up that it's not real, and is just a crazy story like the fantasy and sci-fi on the television. They know Godzilla isn't real, just make sure to tell them that the religion stories are just as bad. Tell them people made it up to control others and that it's sad when someone you know is lost to it.
It can be dangerous to ridicule Islam in some places...but fuck those people.
Use this list to show them how many people think the same thing about their god.
Also, show them that you're not unreasonable. Take them to every single church and synagogue and mosque in the area...do road trips and buy ice cream and then after attending mass or w/e ask them what makes this group different from the rest? Pick it apart and make it fun. They'll love spending time with you and everyone loves ice cream.
Stuff like that. It's the real world stuff where you actually talk to your kids that matters. If they read get them some Hitchens and/or read it with them. Etc.
https://www.amazon.com/Demon-Haunted-World-Science-Candle-Dark/dp/0345409469
I can’t recommend this book enough. If you like to read and have a thirst for what is true and exciting about our world I would love if you’d consider reading it.
All young people should read Carl Sagan's A Demon-Haunted World and apply those principles to your own thoughts and beliefs (old people too).
That is one of my favorite quotes of all time. Have you read the Demon-Haunted World?
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I'll just leave this here for you https://www.amazon.com/Demon-Haunted-World-Science-Candle-Dark/dp/0345409469
I wouldn't start reading people's opinions on religion right away. I'd start your search on suggestions for learning how to question people's opinions first, then see how opinions hold up. For that, I can recommend no better book than The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark.
Here's a critical excerpt from that book: https://www.brainpickings.org/2014/01/03/baloney-detection-kit-carl-sagan/
> The kit is brought out as a matter of course whenever new ideas are offered for consideration. If the new idea survives examination by the tools in our kit, we grant it warm, although tentative, acceptance. If you’re so inclined, if you don’t want to buy baloney even when it’s reassuring to do so, there are precautions that can be taken; there’s a tried-and-true, consumer-tested method.
> 1. Wherever possible there must be independent confirmation of the “facts.”
> 2. Encourage substantive debate on the evidence by knowledgeable proponents of all points of view.
> 3. Arguments from authority carry little weight — “authorities” have made mistakes in the past. They will do so again in the future. Perhaps a better way to say it is that in science there are no authorities; at most, there are experts.
> 4. Spin more than one hypothesis. If there’s something to be explained, think of all the different ways in which it could be explained. Then think of tests by which you might systematically disprove each of the alternatives. What survives, the hypothesis that resists disproof in this Darwinian selection among “multiple working hypotheses,” has a much better chance of being the right answer than if you had simply run with the first idea that caught your fancy.
> 5. Try not to get overly attached to a hypothesis just because it’s yours. It’s only a way station in the pursuit of knowledge. Ask yourself why you like the idea. Compare it fairly with the alternatives. See if you can find reasons for rejecting it. If you don’t, others will.
> 6.Quantify. If whatever it is you’re explaining has some measure, some numerical quantity attached to it, you’ll be much better able to discriminate among competing hypotheses. What is vague and qualitative is open to many explanations. Of course there are truths to be sought in the many qualitative issues we are obliged to confront, but finding them is more challenging.
> 7. If there’s a chain of argument, every link in the chain must work (including the premise) — not just most of them.
> 8. Occam’s Razor. This convenient rule-of-thumb urges us when faced with two hypotheses that explain the data equally well to choose the simpler.
> 9. Always ask whether the hypothesis can be, at least in principle, falsified. Propositions that are untestable, unfalsifiable are not worth much. Consider the grand idea that our Universe and everything in it is just an elementary particle — an electron, say — in a much bigger Cosmos. But if we can never acquire information from outside our Universe, is not the idea incapable of disproof? You must be able to check assertions out. Inveterate skeptics must be given the chance to follow your reasoning, to duplicate your experiments and see if they get the same result.
I know it's a long shot, but give her this book as a gift:
https://www.amazon.com/Demon-Haunted-World-Science-Candle-Dark/dp/0345409469
Look, I am not a Zoroastrian, but I can understand something of what ails you. I think your mind is in a state of intense insecurity.
You want to know what is right and what is wrong, and you are searching. You are confused, and you feel that you are nowhere near discovering the truth. You have been searching for a long time, and you are feeling tired of Searching. You just want an Answer, some sort of prophecy, and then you want to settle down - to find a religion which you can follow as Truth, and live peacefully. You have a feeling of desperation, since you can't find what you're looking for.
Am I right so far? Then listen, brother/sister.
The reason why you cannot find the Truth is that you are looking in the wrong place. I assure you that seeking prophecies will not work. Why do you think that all the believers of various faiths, who have sought meaning in prophecies, came before the age of the Internet, when it was so much harder to discover if the prophecies in your faith is false? This form of religious practice - desperately seeking some hint so you can confirm one religion or the other as "correct", and then peacefully follow it for the rest of your life - is what Hindus like me would call tamasic. It is uncalled for - pitiable, and completely unproductive.
I am not asking you to become a Hindu instead. Listen to what I am saying here very clearly. The only way to discover if a faith is worth following or not is to follow it for some time. You cannot find a shortcut to verify the message by looking at some sign. Follow the faith, call out, and see if you get a response.
There is a lot of deep wisdom in the words of Zarathushtra, and if you wish to follow his faith, it is something you should do with all your heart and soul. It is a beautiful religion, with great lessons for life and good living. Follow this faith with respect and reverence in its wisdom, and see if that has a positive effect in your life.
And if you don't want to follow it as such, fine. But if it is the power of prophecy alone that will convince you, then I suggest you read about science. If only the ability to foretell future inspires you, then the correct path for you is not a religion - not any religion, for that matter. In fact, you should read what the other side has to say first, and see if atheism is what fits you best.
In any case, I wish you the very best in life.
https://www.amazon.com/Demon-Haunted-World-Science-Candle-Dark/dp/0345409469
Demon Haunted World is essentially a full guide on critical thinking from a scientific perspective written by the famous Carl Sagan. If I were you, I'd start by reading this book. It lays out a mental plan for what Sagan calls a "bologna detector" which you can develop to alert you to red flags about questionable claims.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfMypC8bc9I&ab_channel=TheGreatCoursesPlus
Quick two minute intro to Stephen Novella's Great Courses lecture on critical thinking, specifically on trusting sources. VERY highly recommended course.
https://www.criticalthinking.org/
A nice central resource with tons of lessons in critical thinking. Hours up hours of work to be done here.
https://www.edutopia.org/stw-kipp-critical-thinking-resources-downloads
A source for teachers putting together lessons about critical thinking
https://www.theskepticsguide.org/
Technically a podcast, but the podcast is pretty much the flagship for scientific skepticism and critical thinking. They have tons of links to resources and articles about critical thinking. The podcast is also enjoyable and informative.
https://thinktv.pbslearningmedia.org/subjects/professional-development/planning--preparation/the-brain--learning/critical-thinking-skills/
PBS lesson planner for classes on critical thinking
https://www.criticalthinking.org/files/SAM_Aspiring_Thinkers_GuideOPT.pdf
A guide to critical thinking
https://www.amazon.com/Your-Deceptive-Mind-Scientific-Critical/dp/B00DTNWF2Q
Book by Dr. Stephen Novella on critical thinking from a scientific perspective
In all honesty, it's a lot of hard work, and despite what anyone tells you, there is no such thing as common sense and no one can think critically without taking years of concerted effort to learn. Please, seriously, keep in touch if you genuinely want to learn more, but go through these resources. Ask questions if you want, but we can switch over to DMs.
You should read Carl Sagan's Demon Haunted World.
See also: The Demon Haunted World
The Bible is bullshit. Don’t take my word for it. Read it. Let go of your religion and god belief. Stop trying to live your life by a Bronze Age war god book. Atheists are much more accepting of LGBTQ people because we don’t have to do mental gymnastics to get your sexuality to fit with in 2000+ year old understanding of sexuality and bigotry. Check out r/Atheism post this picture there and you’ll find you won’t get all the hate that you did from a Catholic sub.
You weren’t born Catholic, you were born not believing in a god. You were indoctrinated into being a catholic before you had the ability for independent rational thought.
You can be good with out god. Check out Humanism, it’s all the good stuff about humanity without all the religious garbage.
There is most likely no god and if there is one. It probably cares more about how you treat others than what you do with your genitals.
Other good books to read Carl Sagan - Demon Haunted World, Science as a candle in the dark
Christopher Hitchens - God is not great, how religion poisons everything
Recommendation for Rule 6:
Required reading, short term (before asking a technical question): How To Ask Questions The Smart Way by Eric S. Raymond and Rick Moen at http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html - keeping in mind some of the content may not be as relevant in 2020 as it once was, but most of it is.
Required reading, longer term (before getting in the habit of asking technical questions): The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark by Carl Sagan and Ann Druyan at https://www.amazon.com/Demon-Haunted-World-Science-Candle-Dark/dp/0345409469
These might be "big asks" in a lot of Subreddits, but since this is computer forensics...
Demon Haunted World by Carl Sagan
The Demon-Haunted World is more relevant than ever before.
People on this sub-reddit have recommended Carl Sagan's book "The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark", as a good read that explains much about how humanity came to believe in invisible agents of evil, in the first place.
https://www.amazon.com/Demon-Haunted-World-Science-Candle-Dark/dp/0345409469
A review of the book:
Well, I was kind of trying to give you an opportunity to not look silly, but you have decided to stick with your guns.
That is the sound of someone laughing off camera. It sounds like a woman. It is definitely acoustic, i.e. it definitely happened in the environment being filmed, and one would have heard the human being making that sound had they been standing where the camera was. The reason it sounds echoy is because it has bounced off of one of the buildings or other surface before or around the same time as the direct sound has hit the diaphragm.
I worked on a TV show that was about the paranormal and this EVP nonsense for awhile. In the 8 or so times I went out with these people, not even once did anything even remotely suspicious happen. Not an unexplained sound, not a paranormal sighting. I was the mixer, but also being an electronic repair tech I certainly didn't mind helping hook up VCRs, Tape machines, and other pieces of analog equipment. These were "experts", mind you, multiple of them, and they could not accomplish capturing anything.
Oh, didn't you know? Most esteemed ghost hunters use analog equipment, according to the "experts" analog equipment is the medium ghosts use, not digital. So, even if you are willing to believe nonsense, this is unlikely to be a ghost. This isn't my deciding factor, mind you, but...whatever you need.
I highly recommend these as some resources in this audio project:
https://www.amazon.com/Unweaving-Rainbow-Science-Delusion-Appetite/dp/0618056734
Good luck!
"I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time -- when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers are in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness...
The dumbing down of American is most evident in the slow decay of substantive content in the enormously influential media, the 30 second sound bites (now down to 10 seconds or less), lowest common denominator programming, credulous presentations on pseudoscience and superstition, but especially a kind of celebration of ignorance"
― Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
This book should be required reading for all high school students.
Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Demon-Haunted-World-Science-Candle-Dark/dp/0345409469
YouTube Audio Version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmaZ_sxRh0k
That post is ridiculous. It's stuff written out of thin air. There's a scientific basis and then there's a whole pile of crap made up all around it. This is exactly what Carl Sagan warned for in his book The Demon Haunted World. It is a must read if you love science:
https://www.amazon.com/Demon-Haunted-World-Science-Candle-Dark/dp/0345409469
And yes, of course it's possible that we're living in a simulation, but if this is a simulation and our world is being simulated in our heads (kind of like in The Matrix) then it is not logical for there to be any common things or backdoors we can use to get out of it or even prove we're in it.
If this is a simulation and all matter is being simulated, then it seems like we have actually evolved from the beginning of all of it in simulated matter, where time/entropy is a computer or a driving force, and where we're actually nothing but data, and it would make no sense at all to put a planet "in the middle of it all".
Btw there is actually very interesting movement going on scientifically and philosophically around finding the origins of our existence, things like quantum gravity, research of the role of entropy, stuff about the information universe (how we're all built up out of exactly the same atoms; only different is arrangement).
Planets or rings around planets however are no part of this all or any scientific theory. I recommend to read the Carl Sagan book, and to be and stay critical of everything.
The amount of gibberish in this reddit post is astounding.
The Mandela Effect is a psychological false memory effect. Memories are stored in neural networks and pathways in our brains. Physically. Molecules in your head are in different patterns if there is a different memory. For a multi-dimensional Mandela Effect to exist that would mean that extremely complex patterns in our head that store memory and association would have to change without causing other side-effects (like affecting other memories, distortion of related memories), but foremost this would mean that the molecular structure inside your brain would have to change and different/other/more/less (connections between) neurons would have to be formed.
Also it's not logical that a mirror/parallel universe would change in such a way that it would create false memories. If something like that were possible it would seem to me that it's more likely that you will retro-actively never know that things ever were different. It conflicts with multiple theories about how we know physics work; e.g. why would just one memory be different and not everything after this memory (as we know that a butterfly effect type of effect is real which would cause lots of other changes in the other reality as well), and how would a merging of two brains occur?
Many if not all of these weird theories are based around a belief that our brains have some extraordinary capabilities that go way beyond anything science can measure or explain, even though it's never been possible to prove any paranormal capabilities for any person. There's millions of dollars available for people who can prove that they're paranormal and no-one's ever claimed it. What we have seen is that there are all kinds of illusions and visions that you can have with and without drugs, and with and without mental problems.
If you want to research weird and unexplained phenomenon, the scientific method and finding solid proof that is significant, is the only way to go. Otherwise the risk of kidding yourself and finding stuff you want to find instead of stuff that's actually there, is very real.
Please go, buy and read this Carl Sagan masterpiece: https://www.amazon.com/Demon-Haunted-World-Science-Candle-Dark/dp/0345409469
Btw if we are in a simulation my bet would be on that we're in a physics engine that simulates (or in fact creates) our laws of physics that will eventually lead to evolution and then to you and me. This means we're simulated atom by atom and the entity/entities responsible for its creation are not in control of what happens; we are (also, we aren't, because this may mean that our universe is completely deterministic and though we have (free?) will that which will happen will always happen). This would explain why our universe seems so well fine-tuned for life, although we may be very biased to look at it that way because we're now here and not anywhere else. There would be no reason to put weird stuff on Saturn. Stuff for which there are good scientific explanations and even successful lab tests replicating it at scale.
> This past week was busy and my yard was starting to get away from me a bit, so I got up and went out to weed/trim/mow/etc before it became prohibitively hot. My wife asked if I wouldn't mind going with her and the kids to church, and I declined as I was neck deep in work already.
I don't think this is unreasonable.
> When she came home she was upset because the kids had been difficult. She wanted me to commit to going with her every week again just to help with the kids, and I said I might be willing to if she'd sit with me for an hour every week and listen to/watch/read something of my choosing. She agreed instantly.
I don't think that's reasonable, but if it's a compromise you can both live with then sure. More power to you.
> So, I'm looking for some suggestions for material. I'd prefer something less abrasive (at least to start) but that doesn't shy away from questioning the existence of god and arriving at the conclusion that there isn't enough evidence to suggest he exists.
https://www.amazon.com/Demon-Haunted-World-Science-Candle-Dark/dp/0345409469
I can't recommend this enough. It doesn't attack religion much at all but it explains the necessity of skepticism and critical thinking. It's an excellent primer on the topic, one of the best I've ever read. From there you can extend to other books in our recommended reading and recommended viewing list from our sidebar to dig a little deeper into why we're skeptical about religious claims.
> Is there anything in the middle that might work? Any YouTube channels, podcasts, authors, documentaries, etc that you can think of?
After that I would also strongly recommend Evid3nc3's YouTube series Why I Am No Longer A Christian. Even as an atheist I learned a lot of things from this series.
If you, perchance, liked the Harry Potter series, you might enjoy Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality, as a fairly pain free and enjoyable introduction to cognitive biases, logical fallacies, and other useful tools to better thinking. Elizer Yudkowsky, the author of HPatMoR maintains several resources that can also be useful in training your mind to be more rational, and a better critical thinker.
​
The Demon-haunted world: science as a candle in the dark by Carl Sagan is a fantastic book in praise of science, a primer for the scientific method, and a decent guide to why and how science works. Further, it covers the nature of conspiracy thinking and pseudoscience, how to identify these things, and why they are harmful to society. Available in audiobook, ebook, and paper formats.
​
Algorithms to Live by is a bit off to the side of your requested topic, but it's an interesting treatise on how computer science can teach you some of the optimal ways one can make certain types of decisions. It's a bit counterintuitive, in the advice given, for example: messiness is often more efficient than spending a lot of time organizing everything, humans can't really multitask, and hunches are sometimes your best tool for deciding a course of action. I've read the book and posses the audiobook, both are great.
​
Almost anything written by Richard Feynman is accessible, humorous, and wise, in an askew sort of way. He's good at approaching topics from odd angles.
​
The Great Courses offers many resources on Audible: I've read and enjoyed Your Deceptive Mind, Skepticism 101, and Your Best Brain, which cover cognitive biases, and logical fallacies in detail, how to think more clearly without false, misleading thought, and how to take care of you mind through better lifestyle choices.
Wonder what she thought of The Demon-Haunted World by Carl Sagan
Glad you got out. Trust me when I say many of us understand. You aren't wholly responsible for the person you were indoctrinated into being. Apologizing is enough, that and realizing you have changed and it was within your power to do so and what you once were should not be held against you.
> If you have any other articles or video's for me to strengthen my way of thinking, please share them with me.
If you want a truly good recommendation I'd say Carl Sagan's The Demon Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark which is one of the best books on skeptical thinking in the opinion of many here.
These may also be of some help:
https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/wiki/recommended/tools#wiki_reference
https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/wiki/gems
These are not necessarily ways to change your thinking but they're good resources that may help you hone it.
> And how can I make sure that my other beliefs are not faulty?
By teaching yourself to think critically and evaluate what you're told. To understand fallacies and appeals to emotions, manipulative techniques, etc. The book I recommended above Carl Sagan's Demon Haunted world is useful for this among other things.
If you'd like you can look into more formal training such as certain philosophical disciplines, philosophy in general is a great way of teaching yourself to examine and think about things instead of taking them for granted and you can read books from the greats. Philosophical courses on logic (some of which you can find on youtube from respectable sources) are quite helpful if you're looking for a more rigid and formal approach.
> How can I know if anything is absolutely true?
See this is very tough. Some people might choose to believe we're brains in vats or some vast computer simulation. However excluding that for the reason that if it were true there is nothing we can do about it and we might as well continue living as if this reality is the only one that matters or is accessible to us as what else is there to do and on the balance it is likely we do live in the real reality.
Using the scientific method is the best approach for finding truth that we have yet developed. Carl Sagan again argues for it in his book The Demon Haunted World (seriously get this book). You will also find things that address this in the recommended and gems sections I linked above in the wiki.
> Who do you listen to to make sure your mind thinking the right way?
That's a dangerous way of thinking on the one hand. If you're just being spoon fed by others there is always the chance of being misled and a very high probability of falling into biases of following those who will tell you things that you would prefer were true with sugar coated, well constructed lies. Be very careful of the trap of motivated reasoning.
That being said, people are going to do this, even I do this because I don't have the time to critically and in depth evaluate everything in life. This is what experts are for even if they are not to be trusted as divine or beyond question. I would encourage you to keep your thinking cap on at all times.
However, a simple checklist might be: don't listen to people who lie frequently by excusing the fact that you think they have some greater truth they sometimes offer, listen to people who have qualifications for what they're saying, don't listen to demagogues, beware of those who have ~~vicious~~ cults of personality around them, be careful of those who make emotional appeals (I say careful not avoid them entirely because our discourse values emotional appeals because most people don't think logically, I'm just saying be careful not to get sucked in by those appeals and in particular be wary of those who use fear as a tool), be careful of those who engage in pseudo-science and its reasoning which may appear to those unfamiliar with it as rigorous and scientific (and thus trustworthy), be careful of those who claim persecution (while people do suffer it, those who claim it on the balance tend to be advancing an agenda that isn't friendly to truth and thus feel a need to discredit opponents by claiming vast conspiracies against them), don't listen to assholes who will ill things towards other humans on the basis of who they are. I could go on and on but I think that's a pretty good informal list.
> this discussion has been nothing but hostility and ad hominem attacks
The irony is that all the ad hominem attacks have come from you.
This will come as a surprise to you, because you don't understand logical fallacies, but it's true.
Note: an insult is not ad hominem. Ad hominem is when you attempt to rebut an argument by attacking your opponent's character/motivations. You've done that to me several times. I've not done it to you even once.
> the three waves of volunteers and the new earth by Dolores Cannon. Expand my mind a bit
Reading pseudoscience doesn't expand your mind, it closes it to reality. If you can't be bothered to learn actual science, you should at least read A Demon Haunted World, by Carl Sagan, and learn something about critical thinking and what "evidence" even means.
Did you know Amazon will donate a portion of every purchase if you shop by going to smile.amazon.com instead? Over $50,000,000 has been raised for charity - all you need to do is change the URL!
Here are your smile-ified links:
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
Deconverted: A Journey from Religion to Reason
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If you enjoyed Cosmos, I would also recommend Demon-Haunted World. Excellent for cutting through some of the bullshit that surrounds our day to day lives.
I would recommend reading some Richard Feynman too. Surely You're Joking is one of the favorites. He doesn't talk about lofty subjects or anything. He was just a down to earth guy from a working class family in Queens who happened to be a Nobel-prize winning physicist and a great storyteller. He was a genius without the facetious smartypants attitude.
This is a famous lecture of his if you want to get a feel for what his writing is like.
"Demon Haunted World" by Carl Sagan. This book is a great overview of critical thinking and gives a healthy amount of examples. 10/10 would read another 12 times. https://www.amazon.com/Demon-Haunted-World-Science-Candle-Dark/dp/0345409469
(also Elon Musk by Ashlee Vance https://www.amazon.com/Elon-Musk-SpaceX-Fantastic-Future/dp/006230125X/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1489766574&sr=1-1)
Another classic is Carl Sagan's "Demon Haunted World"
https://www.amazon.com/Demon-Haunted-World-Science-Candle-Dark/dp/0345409469/ref=sr_1_1
Also this website: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/
This book doesn't criticize religion so much as provide a foundation for skepticism and address magical thinking: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469?pldnSite=1
I recommend that you read The Demon Haunted World by Carl Sagan (that's an Amazon link). If you prefer, you can listen to a reading here on YouTube, but I don't know for certain whether or not it is complete.
1) Stop watching horror. 2) Read a rationalist book: https://www.amazon.com/Demon-Haunted-World-Science-Candle-Dark/dp/0345409469
From the Pew Research Center, 2008: http://www.pewforum.org/2008/05/05/how-our-brains-are-wired-for-belief/
This link refers initially to sensationalistic journalism claims that "science" found religion to be pathological, but then discusses the evolutionary advantages of beliefs in religions: http://www.apa.org/monitor/2010/12/believe.aspx
[edit to add] Please note that for most of humanity's existence we believed in many deities, or animism. The concept of a single god is relatively recent, first being tried in ancient Egypt when Akhenaten attempted to switch the polytheistic Egyptians from their multiple gods to the worship of one single god, the Sun. That effort took place only 3,350 years ago, followed by the Israelites' gradual evolution from Canaanite polytheism into a sort of monotheism around 2,700 to 3,000 years ago.
So the "monotheistic" god of the bible - isn't. The bible is only around 3,000 years old, & it still contains references to the earlier Canaanite polytheism which strongly influenced its origins.
Carl Sagan wrote a popular book on the effects of belief titled "The Demon-Haunted World". This Amazon link has a small preview:
https://www.amazon.com/Demon-Haunted-World-Science-Candle-Dark/dp/0345409469
That is probably enough for now.
This honestly reminds me much of Carl Sagans book Demon Haunted World—Science as a Candle in the Dark it deals with how to differentiate pseudoscience from science. how to apply skeptical inquiry to be able to distinguish the two.
I suspect (im willing to be wrong) that people who do not apply skepticism to claims are more likely to be convinced by faulty reasoning.
here is a link that has several of his quotes from the book and elsewhere, that describes some of the concept. If you have not read the book, I do highly recommend it.
http://dangerousintersection.org/2009/01/11/science-versus-pseudoscience-according-to-carl-sagan/
Yes, Sagan's Demon Haunted World
I grew up in a similar situation to your girlfriend. The fundamentalist Christian cult I was in was extremely right-wing, armed, and expecting the end of the world to happen at any time. They have a process for excommunication that scared the shit out of me at the time because it meant that if I ever got into trouble with them, I'd never see my relatives in that cult again. I saw families torn apart, people accused of being possessed by demons, and tight control over our lives to where escaping seemed impossible.
That being said, one of the seeds that helped me begin to think logically, long before I had heard of Sam Harris, was Carl Sagan's The Demon Haunted World. The entire book is great and I'd say it should be required reading for anyone beginning to stretch their legs of free-thinking and learn how logic works. The specific part that made the preceeding text in the book click for me was the part about the dragon in my garage. I encourage you to get the book for her, and even read it for yourself if you haven't already. Sam Harris is great, but Carl Sagan's books help bridge the wonder of religion to the wonder of science and rationality better than anything else I've read.
Something like The Demon-Haunted World?
Unsure about alien abductions? Suggested reading and subreddit.
Try This One Next.
The Demon Haunted World by Carl Sagan.
I would encourage you to read The Demon-Haunted World by Carl Sagan.
It's fine. As I re-read what I wrote, I was being a jerk for no reason at all. Sometimes my temper gets the better of me. The last few weeks were a bit stressful for other reasons, and I feel bad that some of it came out at you.
I think that's great that you are considering taking classes. I feel like there is always so much to learn, and the more I learn, the more I feel like I am way behind, but I keep taking classes, reading, and practicing. What else can I do? There is so much in this world to be learned (not just facts, but ways of thinking!), and so few people that are interested in learning. It's always nice to meet someone else who likes learning too!
Since you mentioned wanting to be able to communicate ideas more precisely and logically (don't we all!), I thought I would mention a book I am reading now which seems to be an excellent guide to that way of thinking. (I think I quoted it to you earlier.) Anyway, it's called The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark, by Carl Sagan. His excellent show "Cosmos" is also available for free online. (Sorry, I'm just a big Carl Sagan fan right now. In fact, reading his book is part of what made me realize I should take you more seriously and be more patient.)
Anyway, it has been good talking with you. I'm glad we were both able to settle down about and have a conversation. Speaking with you and realizing that sarcasm wasn't getting me anywhere and that I should try a different attitude, was a good experience for me. Hopefully we run into each other online again sometime. Feel free to stay in touch!
http://www.amazon.com/Demon-Haunted-World-Science-Candle-Dark/dp/0345409469
http://www.amazon.com/Letter-Christian-Nation-Sam-Harris/dp/0307265773
http://www.amazon.com/Misquoting-Jesus-Story-Behind-Changed/dp/0060738170
http://www.amazon.com/Some-Mistakes-Moses-Robert-Ingersoll/dp/0879753617
http://www.amazon.com/Short-History-Nearly-Everything/dp/0767908171
http://www.amazon.com/Lies-My-Teacher-Told-Everything/dp/0684818868
I'm a big fan of this one...
http://www.amazon.com/Demon-Haunted-World-Science-Candle-Dark/dp/0345409469
Read this book, then you'll understand.
http://www.amazon.com/Demon-Haunted-World-Science-Candle-Dark/dp/0345409469
Pretty much what this book is about. Read it and then come back.
http://www.amazon.com/Demon-Haunted-World-Science-Candle-Dark/dp/0345409469
Here's an excerpt for you.
The whole book is fantastic.
http://www.amazon.com/Demon-Haunted-World-Science-Candle-Dark/dp/0345409469
If you have not read Demon haunted world, do so now. It discusses this comparison in detail.
For a basic understanding of atheim as being a skeptical position, this is the best book imho.
http://www.amazon.com/Demon-Haunted-World-Science-Candle-Dark/dp/0345409469
As far as modern atheistic views and analysis of religion I don't know, I don't read many atheist books since they seem redundant to me, but there is a good reading list in the FAQ:
Learning about science and skepticism really helped me to not only be more comfortable with my lack of faith, but to find a naturalistic worldview absolutely beautiful and awe inspiring.
Carl Sagan's Demon-Haunted World is a great introduction to skepticism and critical thinking. It's not a book about religion, but it will give you tools to better judge the merits of arguments and separate fact from fiction.
You may also want to check out the podcast Reasonable Doubts. The hosts apply critical thinking to religion. They're also all former believers and talk about their own deconversions from time to time.
Take your time. Be patient. It's okay not to have all the answers. Religion can give comfort because it provides easy answers. But I think you'll find it's ultimately more fulfilling to come to sound conclusions (or no conclusions) than to accept the easy ones.
Buy her this book. Read it yourself as well.
Good for you that you've started getting free. Just an FYI, you don't have to be atheist or agnostic to reject the Bible as some sort of logical worldview any more than you have to be atheist or agnostic to reject The Illiad and The Odyssey as one. People today find it oh-so-laughable that anyone chooses not to believe in the Judeo-Christian God. It took thousands of years for the gods of Olympus to become comic-book fodder, but with the pace of change increasing exponentially since the Industrial Revolution, I doubt it will be another hundred years before the same fate is handed to YHWH and Jesus. Well, hell, if you count the Internet, it's already started.
Consider not enslaving yourself to the ideas of reality presented to you in a book written by a simpleminded and savage bunch of middle-eastern goat herders two thousand years ago. The universe is big and complex and fascinating enough on its own without these silly contrivances.
I hope I am not offending you, it is not my intent. I have some recommended reading for you, and it's not even apostate! Check out The Demon Haunted World. It changed my life.
Ok, I want you to read what I am writing closely, not because I am trying to belittle your view or your beliefs in ghosts (which are yours to hold and I don't know your experience) but because we are talking about a way of knowing the world and I think it's important to think this through. First I will define some terms to make sure we know we are talking about the same thing:
Double blind: The person doing the experiment (the person on-site doing the testing) does not know exactly what the goal is. The people being studied also do not know what the goal is. This prevents the experimenter from fudging the data with his/her biases (e.g. not taking it seriously because he or she doubts the process, or looking for patterns in what is essentially random because he/she wants ghosts to be real.) It also prevents the people being studied from telling the experimenter what they think he/she wants to hear.
Experimental design: This means, among other things, randomization. You don't have people who already 100% believe in ghosts as part of your experiment, but nor do you fill it with a bunch of skeptics. You have as much as possible random sampling. You also have more than one person you are experimenting on. The results of one experiment could be a function of coincidence, luck, whatever. Random chance. So you do it again. Multiple measures. Multiple participants. Different times of day or night, if this is relevant. This also means you control as many things as possible that could be effecting the outcome. If you wanted to do a longitudinal study you'd test the same things over a longer period of time.
You have two groups being experimented on differently--one group uses the Ouiji Board in the way you want it to be tested. The other group does not use the Ouiji Board properly but just sits with it in the room talking about whatever (or however you design this). Then you look at results and see: Are they all later having spooky experiences? If so then it's not because of how the Ouiji board was used (You still don't know why, and you'd have to explore this further.) Or you could have one group use the Ouiji board and another group just sit in a room watching a scary movie. Then see: Are they all having spooky experiences? Then it wasn't the Ouiji board that caused it. Again, you still don't know why. Occam's razor would suggest the easiest answer is probably the right answer: I.e. It's just emotions, it's just imagination. Again, you could explore as long as you wanted.
There are all kinds of ways to design studies, and each design is used to fit the question of interest (in this case, do Ouiji boards do anything?) But you have a question, and you have ways in which you can answer that question using your brain. If Joe uses the Ouiji Board at the same time as Sue, and Sue has no ill effects but Joe does, does this mean Sue is magically immune? Or does it mean Joe is imagining things? You can use experiments to test exactly this!
This doesn't even get into testing physical manifestations, a la Ghostbusters where you are looking at whatever ways you have of measuring sounds or what we see or whatever. Scientific thinking in the way I am describing it is meant to test whether any of this is in the imagination only or if something is actually going on. If it is, then you will need relevant people to explore what that something is.
IF you found something was actually going on, then breakthrough! you have done what no one else has done. Now it is time to analyze using physical measures.
If you do NOT accept this kind of analysis then that's up to you, but realize this lack of willingness to doubt yourself, to hold your assumptions and beliefs up to the light of scientific analysis, is equivalent to washing your hands of reason. It's what allows charlatans of all types to peddle mystic woo and rake in the cash from the gullible wishing for contact with the spirit world, for healing from crystals, for whatever. And it's dangerous and not good for a society to have people unwilling to make these connections.
Science, meanwhile, is not a religion. It is precisely science to say "We don't have all the answers." What science doesn't do is say "Well, we don't have all the answers, so I will assume demons are following me around." Science is about questioning, about exploration, about testing.
I highly recommend Carl Sagan's book <em>The Demon-Haunted World.</em> In it, he writes about his own life and his hopes, for years, this is Carl Sagan's hopes, that the weird supernatural shit we all read about as kids was actually real. And he is amazingly well-balanced and refreshingly unjudgmental in the book.
I hope this doesn't come off as me being an ass. The fact is 300 years ago if anyone had been doing well-designed studies they certainly would not have concluded that infection was jus random chance. They may not have known it was bacteria--just like if the Ouiji board did in fact do something you don't know that the thing being done is being done by a demon--but they would have known it was something. Again, as a result of scrupulous and rigorous testing, not quick assumption that conveniently confirmed their own beliefs (that's actually what often did happen, with unfortunate results.)
Edit: TL;DR: Whether or to what degree Ouiji boards are "real" and work can be tested by anyone with the time and willingness.
> Its still theoretical mumbo jumbo without a shred of evidence.
https://www.amazon.com/Demon-Haunted-World-Science-Candle-Dark/dp/0345409469
Please just read this book..
It's a quote by Carl Sagan, from this book. It is explaining certain phenomenon, it is not supposed to explain everything in life. That's what Hitchhiker's Guide is for ;)
He may be a bit young for The Demon Haunted World by Carl Sagan. It reads as a general manual for skeptical and critical thinking.
Another book that he might enjoy is The Magic of Reality by Richard Dawkins. The iPad app I'm told is excellent too. Basically, the book is a collection of myths from around the world, together with an explanation of what's really happening. Age 12 is a perfect age for this book.
You could also give him the new Cosmos on DVD.
Also check out Junior Skeptic magazine.
Edit: You know, an old-fashioned pen-and-paper snailmail letter might work wonders. Talk about what you went through and how religious ideas caused problems for you. Be clear with him that he has to choose his own path, but, as you said here, you want to avoid the situation where he comes to you years from now and say "why didn't you tell me?"
I don't find alien explanations for unexplained events any more compelling than divine explanations. I prefer arguments from rationality.
Why come ask a skeptics view when you just refute it with your own unscientific claims?
Truthfully I am not even going to waste my time watching this. Instead, I'll spend my 2 hours rereading Carl Sagan's The Demon-Haunted World and the great chapter on aliens. That way I won't feel like I was just probed by some bullshit theory...
The number of reports has nothing to say about the plausibility. Whenever these ghost stories are competently investigated, they dry up. Not usually. Not mostly. ALWAYS.
Carl Sagan talks a lot about this phenomenon in The Demon Haunted World: The number of sightings is directly proportional to how gullible a culture is, and the kinds of sightings relate to what's currently in the newspapers.
Sagan reported that 30% of all Americans believe in alien UFO abductions. What this tells me is that a lot of very stupid and gullible people exist.
Shit's been debunked. Exhaustively. Nothing to see here, time to go home.
Tell her to netflix the cosmos. He makes many subtle stabs at superstitious beliefs in the series. If must have Carl Sagan, I have not read it but it but there are tons of good reviews for Demon Haunted World. However for the purposes you're describing you should recommend The God Delusion. I have read it and its a flawless victory defeat over believers.
Honestly, get into STEM. Get everybody into stem. The reason people fall for psuedo-science so much is a fundamental lack of scientific literacy.
Even though the war that's being fought is cultural, it's only been made possible by the dynamics today by scientific literacy. Jordan Peterson himself has a background in clinical psychology and has years of Academic experience behind him, so he knows how to structure his talks to hit the right notes of the audience he has. The platforms that's enabling us to have these discussions are built by HTML, CSS, PSP and Python programmers. Mathematicians and statisticians structure and analyse the data that's used to gauge voter preferences and target impressionable people with propaganda and advertisements. If you're not extremely educated in this landscape, you're going to lose. It's easy to shit on people like Zucc as being an emotionless lizard man now but he created the platform that arguably controls a good amount of the public discourse.
We have computers in our pockets, and the majority of the people that use them don't even know how they work. If you haven't the privilege to get into a science or technology field then at least start reading books like Carl Sagan's Demon Haunted World and some Thomas Gilovich.
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