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The Ethical Slut, Third Edition: A Practical Guide to Polyamory, Open Relationships, and Other Freedoms in Sex and Love?
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Okay, so first, what you're looking for isn't monogamous, it's polyamorous or polyfidelitous. The people at /r/polyamory could be a good resource for you as well.
Before talking to her, or maybe as you are, I'd recommend reading The Ethical Slut. There's a lot of very important information about how to communicate and navigate the weird waters of non-monogamy. It's also a quick read.
Good luck, play safe.
Alright here's my experience, apologies if it's a lot of nonsense
We share a 2 bedroom apartment, which in my home city our rent is pretty good compared to current market value. We are on month-to-month so we could have moved out if we wanted, when we broke up we decided to keep the place, in part because of rent sharing, and second because it's a really good place.
It was pretty easy going until the pandemic lock downs started, forcing us both to stay home. But we had established boundaries, and often share cooking meals, help each other with chores, and we still spend time together watching movies or playing games (video or board).
One of the challenges will be whenever one of us actually leaves. We bought a lot of things together; a nice TV, the couch, the bed she uses, some of the game consoles and so on. Eventually one will have to buy what they want off the other.
If you don't have a second bedroom you're going to have some difficulties. One of you may have to take the living room or other common space as their bedroom and set up some kind of privacy barriers.
In a way, you're in a form of non-monogamous relationship now and it might be a good idea for each of you to do some reading on the subject. This book is pretty good though it probably covers a lot more then needed in your context.
Here's what has helped us maintain our friendship:
- Set boundaries
- Respect those boundaries
- Be kind
- Help with chores
- Make meals together
- Hang out and have fun
- Take some alone time when you need it
- Be encouraging when looking for people to date; reviewing each others online dating profile can be a fun exercise and a real confidence booster :)
- Invest in a good pair of headphones.
Hope this helps, feel free to DM if you'd like some more details on anything.
Happy Saturday, Veni! I'm so happy to hear you're getting out and enjoying time with friends and are on a good path. You deserve all the good things! :)
I think it's great that you're coming up with questions regarding the why of your desire to open the relationship. Something I'm curious about -- have you ever wanted an open relationship with a partner prior to your husband? I think for some, monogamy is simply too limiting and too narrow.
I have spoken to a number of men and women about this, but shockingly, more women seem to find the idea of open relationships more appealing than men. Perhaps I'll make a post about this, because you're far from alone in these thoughts and desires and it may help you.
I really think you should check out the book, <em>The Ethical Slut</em>. It may help you understand your why more and feel less alone in your thoughts and desires. I would also be happy to suggest other books for you as well, if you're interested :)
Recommend you get a copy of The Ethical Slut and give that a thorough going over. They have some really good content about jealousy, where it comes from, and how to deal with it. You're right that you can't want freedom and justify jealousy at the same time.
As for me, I choose to spend some time thinking about my jealousy when I feel it. Why am I feeling this way? What are the underlying feelings that are making me vulnerable? What can I do to make this work better?
Good luck.
It's not that unusual of a kink and there are ways to do this without compromising anyone's ethics. You might check out one of the core books on ethical non-monogamy (ENM) called "The Ethical Slut" which forms a sort of guidebook for polyamorous relationships.
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It's an important book just generally for modern sexual culture.
So this is what you do to realign the story and get everything back on track.
The big bad evil guy is an ethical slut. So that would probably imply lawful evil.
https://www.amazon.com/Ethical-Slut-Third-Practical-Relationships/dp/0399579664
They are perfectly willing to sleep with the entire party. It won’t affect the evil plans but they won’t take advantage of the opportunity either.
They will also inform all of their many other partners. Possibly the party will receive gifts later from these partners. I’ve heard that is sometimes traditional.
You know it kind of goes something like this.
Hello Lady Marlane, Noted necromancer and traitor to the crown.. Is this business or pleasure?
Pleasure.
Commence the fucking. Cuddling and after care is employed.Then everybody leaves safely, Possibly with gift baskets of fruits and cheeses.
If it was business commence the initiative.
There is an alternative. You can take everybody aside and having a IRL conversation about how this is bothering you.
If it is not bothering you or anyone else at the table carry-on.
Thanks so much for this post!
WTF?!?!?!
Honestly, I feel this post is EXTREMELY offensive. You’re triggering me with your ignorance and closed mindedness!! Swinging isn’t what caused my relationship’s issues.
Infidelity is related to betrayal and betrayal can take many different shapes. It’s very closed minded and selfish to think that your betrayal and/or trauma is of any importance greater than my own. This forum should be available to support those experiencing the human condition and relational trauma. Your emotions and your relationship are equivalent to my own, not unique, and your insinuation that swinging (relevant to me) somehow detracts from my marriage’s validity in terms of relational interconnection and vesting is the most ignorant thing I have read in here— ever.
Read this book (but buy from a local retailer), and stop hiding behind your belief that you’re in the only type of relationship that is important and that my heart doesn’t matter:
The Ethical Slut, Third Edition: A Practical Guide to Polyamory, Open Relationships, and Other Freedoms in Sex and Love https://www.amazon.com/dp/0399579664/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_i_C7C9D4BJ24P7TK16H5TS
Op’s post is super narcissistic. I’ve never been more angry while reading Reddit than I am right now. Seriously, wtf?!?!?
Most likely she just wanted to feed off of the sexual energy of the club to bring into the bedroom.
But if you guys do decide to open your relationship to others you both should read 'The Ethical Slut' for the health of your marriage.
The Ethical Slut, Third Edition: A Practical Guide to Polyamory, Open Relationships, and Other Freedoms in Sex and Love https://www.amazon.com/dp/0399579664/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_glt_i_44M6NZPRWHPFEH4T6TMD
There are a few things going on, that I see.
You say that you are accepting, then turn around and say you are uncomfortable with them "bottoming to anal play". Have you thought about why? Is it just your partner, or all non-binary people, or bi men, or leasbians, the act of anal, or or or...
Your partner has changed since you have been together. They were all of what you need in a partner- Dominant. Now, they are not, and that is shifting and you cannot fulfill that need for them, as much as you want to. You worry if they will someday lose the part that you need... (I may be off base here, but it's a concern)
Other partners. Sharing can be hard when all you want to do is say "MINE". But, it sounds like they loves you and is trying to work on your relationship. Know that you can't be someone's everything. Just like there is no perfect food in nature. We need to eat a variety to get all the vitamins and minerals we need. Not a perfect analogy, but it works. Think of them getting his Niacin, Folic Acid, and Vitamin D while he's out. They will feel better after their vitamin infusion.
(Wow, the things I think of at 1 am during a fit of insomnia, I'm sure its not original, bit, ther you go)
Note on terminology: What you describe is Ethical Non-Monogomy. Polyamory would imply that he has romantic ties his othe(s). ENM just means, sleeping with other people, and everyone knows (poly is typically included in the ENM umbrella)
I haven't read it, but I've hear this book is good: The Ethical Slut - Janet W. Hardy and Dossie Easton
Some things to think about. Hope it helps. Let me know if you have questions.
I’m so sorry. That’s so overwhelmingly awful. My heart cries for your pain. :’(
So, just to be clear, what I suggested and apparently got downvoted on as if the advice weren’t a valid option is actually good advice SOME of the time. It won’t work in every situation, and it certainly my won’t work if it’s not being ethically practiced. Ethical non-monogamy is 10,000% real, and when it’s approached in a joint, united front as a team, it can be quite enjoyable. I understand that not everyone subscribes to that kind of lifestyle, and I’m not trying to force it upon anyone. I merely suggested it as a starting point for others to branch out from and learn more about.
There’s a really good book on this practice called The Ethical Slut. It’s a good read, and it goes over types of open relationships that I would never be comfortable with. Still, it’s educational to the ignorant. I learned a whole lot from that book. It’s on Kindle as well.
The Ethical Slut, Third Edition: A Practical Guide to Polyamory, Open Relationships, and Other Freedoms in Sex and Love https://www.amazon.com/dp/0399579664/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_4RK727JFPY5NEHYZF5JC
The only book I've read that could potentially fit that description is The Ethical Slut. It's been a long time since I read it, but I recall thinking it was pretty good.
In your recent research, did you come across topics called consented non-monogamy or polyamory? Basically a less hippie version of a commune made up out of 3+ people, typically living the kinky lifestyle but not required.
A good start to start reading is The Ethical Slut, Third Edition: A Practical Guide to Polyamory, Open Relationships, and Other Freedoms in Sex and Love
Not a way of living/type of relationship I would prefer ... But hey everybody is different and that's a good thing.
The book was a good read anyways, even though I did not read the third edition ... Also it's pretty common in communal libraries I have heard from us friends.
Don’t be my fellow goddesses. Please go out and get this book. It’s a game changer. It’s not just for hotwives or poly people. Monogamous women can benefit from it too. The Ethical Slut, Third Edition: A Practical Guide to Polyamory, Open Relationships, and Other Freedoms in Sex and Love https://www.amazon.com/dp/0399579664/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_9MGSBASPHP1HSNAJ2DNS
So many wonderful possibilities! You could spend some time over on r/swingers. Ask some questions there. And if you or your wife are readers, you might grab "The Ethical Slut: A Practical Guide to. Polyamory, Open Relationships, and Other Freedoms in Love and Sex" by Janet Hardy. https://smile.amazon.com/dp/0399579664/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_fabc_H71F7M23ZAK8RRCGND43
Sounds like you have a lot to learn.
This book is a great place to start!
The Ethical Slut, Third Edition: A Practical Guide to Polyamory, Open Relationships, and Other Freedoms in Sex and Love https://www.amazon.com/dp/0399579664/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_fabt1_s7aRFbC9V48WX
Meh. I get downvoted on at least 1 AITA comment every week. It's whatever.
If anyone is interested in learning more about ethical non-monogamy/polyamory, The Ethical Slut is a great place to start. Plus it's just a fun read in general.
Poly/ENM Bi guy here, 35, partnered with a bi woman, married for 3 years, together for 7 years, and open for 6 years.
1. How has it affected the marriage?
Undoubtedly it has improved it. It honestly feels as though every experience we have outside of our own relationship strengthens our own. We end up feeling closer and more assured. There is literally no question, we’re life partners on a fundamental level, and nothing as silly as sex or liking or even loving other people can change that.
2. What has made it work? Advice?
Honesty, transparency, trust and knowing that you do not possess/own your partner. Letting go of jealousy is very hard for some, but it is crucial to an open relationship working. Only open your relationship if you’ve already got a very strong relationship. If your relationship has existing problems, do not open it, adding more people to your already rocky relationship will not solve anything and will only hurt those you bring in. Also, please please please read The Ethical Slut. You don’t need to use everything that is in this book, but it will definitely give you an excellent foundation to build on, and very importantly it will give you a vocabulary to communicate with.
Other pieces of advice: use a shared calendar on your phones. Check in with each other often. Always fucking tell the truth.
3. Biggest misconception?
I largely attribute our success to our methodical and slow approach to opening our relationship. We started with only allowing same sex outside relationships. However over time we expanded that to include heterosexual outside relationships. Ultimately, I guess my biggest misconception was for our capacity to handle outside relationships well. I was nervous at first but now it’s old hat. I have a girlfriend, my wife is not only aware but is ultra supportive of it, all of us are actually hanging out together next week, and I’m stoked for it. She has a guy fwb that might grow into something more, I also encourage her in her pursuits. He’s straight, but I’m looking forward to meeting him. Anyone who makes my wife happy is alright in my book. Ultimately my wife and I are each others “wingman”, wingperson?
I guess another misconception I had was just how fucking picky I’d be with guys. I’ve had some hookups here and there, but I can never seem to find a guy who I’d consider “boyfriend” material, despite looking for years now. I guess one day my prince will come? Hoping.
to be honest, where i am right now, SW has made me more compassionate and healed me in a way that i couldn't get from my civilian life. it helped me cultivate a sense of power, confidence, and taught me more about how to have boundaries than any therapy modality could. i no longer have anger or hurt towards the clients i see who are married. i have a much more nuanced way of seeing people and relationships now, and that's where i'm able to have compassion for all people. i feel more like a therapist now than i did years before doing SW, and see how complicated people are.
i know what you're feeling because i've felt it too. i have gotten to a much different place now, though it took years out of SW to finally get there, and now i'm back with a much wiser and healthier perspective as a working SW again.
around the time i first started escorting around age 23 was when i came to the discovery/realization that my own father was a client. i saw his laptop open with a browser tab on eros, and coupled with many other pieces of info, i just knew he was a clientl! that, coupled with who he was a father and husband to my mother, made me lose my shit because he wasn't the best, and it gave me a very negative view of men for most of my 20s. after that, i went back to civilian jobs and slowly healed myself.
being a SW is marginalizing, but it's also incredibly powerful to have the kind of perspectives and knowledge about the world and how men operate that we get to see that civilians don't. i start with the idea of having this knowledge is extremely powerful and enlightening and build upon that. we are like deities who have secret info about the rest of mankind that other women are blind to. knowledge is power.
IMHO, sex work will change you, but it doesn't necessarily have to hurt you. it depends on how you choose to see the world and seek out new relationships with the new knowledge you know about men and relationships. there are two main perspectives i see with having this newfound understanding:
- you focus on the loss of a disney-influenced monogamous fairytale of "the one" or prince charming and live in despair and feel like a victim.
- you understand that modern monogamy is outdated for the contemporary world, and as a SW we are enlightened and lucky enough to have access to this knowledge of how most men are -- lying about their monogamy in order to sustain a piece of status or image and to avoid being alone. you understand that we have been lied to our entire lives about what monogamy is, and the lie that most men are monogamous and you will live happily ever after. you get that happily ever after is a lie, and many couples pretend they are happy and perfect when they are full of issues. as someone with this knowledge, i feel privileged to have it and be aware of it instead of living in ignorance like so many civilian women do, believing their prince charming husband is some angel working overtime, while he's spending thousands on SWs.
it actually gives us an advantage over civilian women in finding the right kind of man because we understand that civilian women are lied to constantly by their own partners, families and society about what the world and what the men in their lives are actually like. it just means we have to find the right kind of man who is honest with himself and all of his partners. it will take more work, more time, but it will make our future relationships stronger if we act accordingly.
gathered from my civilian dating life and sw life, what i find most noticeable about men is that men who are more focused on status and tradition are more likely to be in a monogamous relationship, but will have their cake behind their partners back. they do love their partners, but they also force their partners into non-consensual open relationships without the knowledge that it is so. they are deceivers and liars, but are they exactly monsters? no. just complicated men who aren't able to live authentically and live a life of lies on a daily basis.
luckily there are more men than ever before, especially in younger generations, who are becoming more honest about what they want, and their relationships. ethical non-monogamy is an option and many people are very happy living that way. I think a lot of non-monogamous or poly couples are much better at communication than monogamous men/people are, and that is kind of by design. i've just emerged into my non-monogamous identity, and as someone who is dating and trying to meet a primary partner, I've found that men who are open to real honest & ethical non-monogamy are men who are more likely to be sw-friendly and understand it as real work, but also are just more open about everything in general. while obviously not every non-mono guy is like that, it's much more apparent than in monogamous men who don't know how to communicate and play games. it's a breath of fresh air actually.
some videos for intros to non-monogamy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cVPDSHSaW4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7E9ASb3LfE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW8jW946HE0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_3ZHePuZ9U
...and of course this book, the bible of polyamory/NM: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0399579664/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_2?pf_rd_p=b4bbef4e-170e-463d-8538-7eff3394b224&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=1442200227&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=C6RPSSN1TVTT8DR4299V&pf_rd_r=C6RPSSN1TVTT8DR4299V&pf_rd_p=b4bbef4e-170e-463d-8538-7eff3394b224
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TL;DR: RUN, don't walk, away from this man.
The issue that you need to focus on is not about tantra, it is not about non-monogamy. It is about you needing to be in an emotionally and physically safe relationship that supports your growth.
This guy is an asshole. The sexual issues and his active alcoholism are ways for him to string you along into helping him. Yes, his mother died, and that's a terrible thing, but it is not your cross to bear. Especially with all of this coworker bullshit going on.
He doesn't sound like he's able to be in a healthy non-monogamous relationship, given his lack of communication with you about "wanting snuggles" before telling you this other woman was coming over. That was also pretty mean of him to do to you.
Rule #1 with non-monogamy is to communicate. Rule #2 is to respect your partner. He's doing neither of those things.
He needs therapy, not non-monogamy, and not certainly not tantric sex with you.
Re: developing a tantric practice with someone you're in a non-monogamous relationship with? I'm not sure what the answer to that would be, however if it is possible, the relationship must be healthy and safe.
That's not at all what's happening here. Tantric sex will put you in a more emotionally vulnerable position with him. You will be on the hook for more of his toxic bullshit. He will be able to manipulate you more than he's doing now.
Given what you've written about what's happening now, neither tantra nor non-monogamy sound emotionally safe and I think it would lead to damaging yourself emotionally if you were to do so.
I know you want to help him, and that you're in love with him, however you need to focus on being good to yourself. You deserve to be with someone who loves, respects and communicates with you. This guy is not at all that. He's a spineless asshole who's trying to manipulate you.
Get yourself the support you need to untangle yourself from this relationship so you can move forward in creating a beautiful life for yourself.
YOU DO NOT DESERVE SOMEONE WHO TREATS YOU LIKE THIS
Want more info?: Check out r/nonmonogamy
Read: The Ethical Slut: A Practical Guide to Polyamory, Open Relationships, and Other Freedoms in Sex and Love by Janet Hardy & Dossie Easton. It's an excellent guide for navigating relationships of all kinds.
edit: formatting
Unfortunately, one of the authors of "More Than Two" was a narcissist, and hurt the co-author and several other partners. In good conscience, this should not be recommended for those new to polyamory. There's a few excerpts that are red flags, regarding accountability.
I instead recommend the following:
The Ethical Slut: https://www.amazon.com/Ethical-Slut-Third-Practical-Relationships/dp/0399579664/
Opening Up: A Guide to Creating and Sustaining Open Relationships: https://www.amazon.com/Opening-Up-Creating-Sustaining-Relationships/dp/157344295X/
And of course, The Jealousy Workbook: https://www.amazon.com/Jealousy-Workbook-Exercises-Insights-Relationships-ebook/dp/B00FJGNVG0/
Certainly! Please check out the book “The Ethical Slut” by Dossie Easton and Janet Hardy
https://www.amazon.com/Ethical-Slut-Third-Practical-Relationships/dp/0399579664/ref=nodl_
Your local library should also have a copy. Specifically, in chapter 12, “Child rearing” Dossie references that raising children in a group setting is significantly more beneficial.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12685340/ This published work specifically references that only 3-5% of mammals engage in “monogamy” “Most male mammals do not look after their offspring; humans are an exception in this respect. Like most mammals, humans are not strictly monogamic. A tendency to social monogamy has evolved, however, and is subject to strong reinforcement by cultural factors, particularly religion. As a result, in a number of cultures monogamy is the predominant mating system; however, most cultures (about 85%) are polygamic.”
I think you're both really getting started on the wrong foot here.
I would suggest doing some reading or listen to some podcasts first before you continue. ENM can be really rewarding, but a lot of people start by just making shit up as they go, and then blame non-monogamy even though they never bothered to use the playbook.
A good reading list: Ethical Slut, PolySecure, Anxious Guide, Poly Journal, Ready For Poly
The first thing I recommend is to create your own "book club" with your wife. Start buying two copies of books (or Audiobooks if that's your thing). Some books to put on the list:
- Ethical Slut. First published in the 1990s, this is one of the most often recommended books for ethical nonmonogamy.
- Polysecure. This is a recently published book and builds upon the most recent research. It's focus is to adapt attachment theory which has been around for 80 years and apply it to nonmonogous relationships.
- She Comes First. This book isn't about nonmonogamy, but it will help you open your perspectives. Given your generation and that you two have only had experiences with each other, this could help spur conversation.
- Polyamory Dating Guide. More of a how-to, but worth a read as you two are getting back into the dating scene (potentially).
I'm also a fan of podcasts. There are so many. Go on Spotify or any of the podcast platforms and search for podcasts around:
- Swingers
- Ethical nonmonogamy
- Polyamory
- BDSM
Again, you may or may not be interested in many (or any) of these. But have a go.
Then, once you pick one...both of you start reading and then schedule time time at least once per week....more if you want/can and then talk about what you've read. What questions do you have? What thoughts do you have.
I'd do this with all kinds of sex related topics. Get really candid and comfortable talking about sex and the emotions behind it. One of my favorite books is Non-Violent Communication. The first 3-4 chapters are absolute gold. Maybe even take a couple's communication online course.
Heck, I'd even recommend finding a kink-positive therapist that you two can see together. Think of it like having an expert on call to help you navigate and prepare for issues. Pre-hab as I like to call it. And then when you do hit bumps (and you will) you'll have someone who knows you and can help you with the journey. Search for therapists for experience with polyamory and ENM and BDSM. You do not want to be their first client talking about going to adult clubs and swingers parties. You don't want to be judged for talking about some kink like group sex or cuckolding or whatnot. And if you have someone with a lot of experience that you get along with, it will be your superpower.
So spend 6 months or a year doing this research. You can experiment with stuff along the way, but commit to doing the "work". But if it feels like work then this may not be for you two. This should be fun. You should look forward to learning stuff.
Next, make friends locally in the community. It can be hard to find your first step into the kinky world. Try going to some munches. If you don't know what that is, do some research (look above LOL). You'll meet people in a non-sexual environment. If you are nice and show up a few times you'll get invited to stuff. You'll meet people. You'll connect online.
This is one way to do it. There are others. You two can just jump in and try stuff. I'm sure there are sex clubs near you. Most people figure stuff out as they go. This is the way if you want to ease your way in.
Good luck! 🍀🍀🍀
The Ethical Slut - on Amazon...
The "preview" pictures are of the front and back, but you can get it quickly (depending on where you are)?
I highly recommend everyone to read The Ethical Slut by Hardy & Easton. It’s eye opening.
The classic guide to love, sex, and intimacy beyond the limits of conventional monogamy has been fully updated to reflect today’s modern attitudes and the latest information on nontraditional relationships.
“One of the most useful relationship books you could ever read, no matter what your lifestyle choices. It’s chock-full of great information about communication, jealousy, asking for what you want, and maintaining a relationship with integrity.”—Annie Sprinkle, PhD, sexologist and author of Dr. Sprinkle’s Spectacular Sex
For 20 years The Ethical Slut—widely known as the “Poly Bible”—has dispelled myths and showed curious readers how to maintain a successful polyamorous lifestyle through open communication, emotional honesty, and safer sex practices. The third edition of this timeless guide to the ethics of relationships, communication, and sex has been revised to include:
• Interviews with poly millennials (young people who have grown up without the prejudices their elders encountered regarding gender, orientation, sexuality, and relationships) • Tributes to polyamory pioneers • Tools for conflict resolution and instructions on how to improve interpersonal dynamics • New sidebars on topics such as asexuality, sex workers, LGBTQ terminology, and ways polys can connect and thrive
The authors also include new content addressing nontraditional relationships beyond the polyamorous paradigm of “more than two”: couples who don't live together, couples who don't have sex with each other, nonparallel arrangements, couples with widely divergent sex styles, power disparities, and cross-orientation relationships, while utilizing nonbinary gender language and new terms that have come into common usage since the last edition. Review “The Ethical Slut is a classic, a book that helped launch the modern non-monogamy movement. Updating a book of such historical significance is no easy task, but The Ethical Slut, Third Edition succeeds beautifully. Where the original broke radical new ground, this edition is more nuanced, a book for a more complex age. In the third edition, we see the wide variety of forms ethical non-monogamy, and indeed human sexual relationships, can take. This new version brings a new focus on consent, talks about the many wonderful and varied ways ethical non-monogamy happens, and shows an appreciation for the vast range of human sexuality. This is The Ethical Slut for a new era, and cements the book’s place as one of the cornerstones of modern non-monogamous thought.” —Franklin Veaux, More Than Two: A practical guide to ethical polyamory
The Ethical Slut, Third Edition: A Practical Guide to Polyamory, Open Relationships, and Other Freedoms in Sex and Love https://www.amazon.com/dp/0399579664/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_7PKHTWE3WZPQ13QCCB51
I'll just refer you to the basic work on the issue:
https://www.amazon.com/Ethical-Slut-Third-Practical-Relationships/dp/0399579664
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Serious pro tip here: look up Solo Polyamory. Not saying it's for everyone, but if your immediate reaction to the word polyamory is "oh hell never," I urge you that much harder to at least check it out.
https://solopoly.net/2014/12/05/what-is-solo-polyamory-my-take/
And regardless of your who/what/when/where/why with relationships AT ALL, if you're an INTP, you should read this book.
https://www.amazon.com/Ethical-Slut-Third-Practical-Relationships/dp/0399579664/
Serious pro tip here: look up Solo Polyamory. Not saying it's for everyone, but if your immediate reaction to the word polyamory is "oh hell never," I urge you that much harder to at least check it out.
https://solopoly.net/2014/12/05/what-is-solo-polyamory-my-take/
And regardless of your who/what/when/where/why with relationships AT ALL, if you're an INTP, you should read this book.
https://www.amazon.com/Ethical-Slut-Third-Practical-Relationships/dp/0399579664/
So that might be just the preference for your husband, you are allowed to have your own preference and should voice them. I personally donl not prefer one traditional gender over the other, but with me identifying as demisexual so I tend to gravitate towards relationships based on their personalities and individual connections not gender identities. However, I was not raised that open-minded nor broad-minded, definitely raised by bias people who barely understood themselves let alone other people's individualities and had to unlearn and rediscover my core self.
These are the books that helped me transition to the poly lifestyle that I always knew I wanted to be a part of and to unlearn my cis and close-minded upbringing so I could have the freedom to be who I always knew myself to be inside. These books really helped me and I believe that they will answer your question as well as future questions you might have. I'm sending Amazon links because it's easier.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0996460187?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title
https://www.amazon.com/Ethical-Slut-Third-Practical-Relationships/dp/0399579664
Side note, has been told to me by others that these titlesThe titles are a little off-putting to some people who little knowledge of the poly lifestyle / choice. But they've been a tremendous help in my life dealing with partners that are exploring to see if they will enjoy poly and to people who are already part of the lifestyle as well as everyone in between.
Hey mate, wanted to give my 2 cents in the matter.
When I met my current SO, we're both on the same page in a sense that we're "monogamish" - we love each other but we also like the novelty of swinging. I have a bit of an obsessive personality so when I find a topic I want to learn, I go ham and dive in head first to find out more about it.
What I learnt is that the couples who are successful in doing so are both on the same page, and it takes a LOT of communication to get to this. It's not just about 'sleeping with other people', it's a constant series of communication on what's ok and not ok and what boundaries are set that both parties want to respect. For example, my SO and I both agree that we will only ever swing with the other in the room (safety, mostly), and that we will always go at the speed of the slowest person - meaning that if one of us is 'not feeling it' for any reason, then we don't go ahead.
I can tell you love your SO so much that you're considering to to something that's not within your comfort level. My advice to you is as follows:
- Figure out if this is something you're uncomfortable with and willing to overcome for the betterment of yourself, or if this is something that's pushing your sexual boundaries that you don't want to (and shouldn't) go ahead with.
- Talk and listen, then listen, then talk, then listen (in no particular order). I suppose in short communicate - it's good practice if you do want to go ahead and this gives you a chance to go deeper into the relationship together, swinging or no swinging.
- Spend some time with yourself and honestly think about your sexual boundaries. Imagine you're in the middle of a circle with all your sexual experiences. What's at the border of that circle? You'll need the answer to this despite your answer to swinging, and if you and your SO do decide to do this, you'll need to discuss with her what your boundaries are as a couple (soft swap or full swap, same room or separate room play, who's on the no-go list, etc.)
I think that's about it - I know it's a bit of a long post but I wanted to give my experiences to balance out the points of view. Here's also some resources for you to consider if you're thinking about swinging:
- /r/swingers - fantastic subreddit with a lot of helpful folks.
- swingershelp.com - great resource that we've used together.
- The Ethical Slut - great primer on open relationships and what it is / is not.
Last note - remember that swinging is a team sport and you have a say in it too.
Your situation is not unusual, and I do think there is a way forward.
A couple of thoughts:
First: You BOTH need to read The Ethical Slut. There are plenty of books about non-monogamy out there, and this is hardly the definitive text (and there are some things worth critiquing), but this book is comprehensive, compassionate, and sensitively written. It will absolutely open up some important discussions between you and your partner and force you to think about things you might be avoiding. And pertaining to your request for practical explanations, this book give various exercises that you can do to work through some of the things as you prepare to explore non-monogamy.
Okay, onward.
Rules that involve one partner not developing feelings for their other partners are destined to fail. I think my first suggestion would be to avoid making rules or boundaries that are extremely likely to be breached, or which could lead to deception or secrets. You do not want to create a situation where a boundary like "no feelings" becomes a way that to hurt each other when one or both of you inevitably develop feelings for another partner. You've just found a way to smuggle "infidelity" of a sort into your non-monogamy, and that's not ideal. I think you need to challenge this boundary by asking: what is the threat that is posed by "feelings" for your other partners? Is it really a threat? Are we being too rigid or possessive, too narrow-minded or perhaps doubtful of our ability to love and be loved by multiple people?
You and your partner need to open up a conversation about jealousy right now. Talk honestly about current jealousy. Talk about what might make each of you feel jealous. Be vulnerable about it with each other. Being able to manage jealousy is going to be critical as you explore non-monogamy and talking about it with each other is essential to that management.
On the topic of jealousy, jealousy comes from a "tragedy of the commons" type of mindset that is common in relationships. That is, love (or eroticism, or attraction, or whatever it is we might be talking about) is a finite resource, and I need to work hard to keep those resources to myself, and if my partner has feelings for another person, those are feelings/love that are being denied to me.
The thing is, we would never say this about almost any other relationship. Many of us have multiple friends we love dearly, and having a new friend enter the picture doesn't mean we are less capable of loving those other friends. If you are a parent, having a second child doesn't mean you are any less capable of loving the first as much as before. There's no reason our romantic/intimate relationships should be any different.
(obviously time and energy are finite, and that requires management, but love, eroticism, etc, are not precisely and completely bound to time and energy).
Having other romantic/erotic partners, and devoting time and energy to those various partners, can actually take pressure off our other partners. No single person can offer us all of what we need, and it's a lot of pressure to shoehorn someone into that. You might find that your primary relationship (if that's the language you want to use) is enhanced by having other partners to fill in your intellectual, emotional, erotic, etc. needs. You might find your relationship with your primary partner is better because it only needs to be what it is, rather than be everything to you. You can appreciate it and maximize the experience of what that relationship offers rather than spending time and energy extracting something from it that it can't easily offer (or coping with the absence of that thing from your life).
There are lots of strategies that you can employ together to reduce the occurrence of jealousy altogether, but jealousy is inevitable, and being able to have strategies to cope with it when it happens is critical.
I also strongly advocate for symmetry of outcomes (not symmetry of rules). This is one way to help manage jealousy. All partners should be able to seek the outcomes they desire, which often means the boundaries applied to each partner are the same, though not necessarily. For example, if your partner limits you to one-nighters (I don't agree with that rule, but let's roll with it), then that rule applies to your partner too. On the symmetry of outcomes but not rules front, let's take a hypothetical: If you have a person that is already close to you that you'd like to partner with, but your partner doesn't have a person like that in their lives, perhaps allowing the use of dating apps or other things like that to give your partner an opportunity to meet other people – something you don't necessarily need, at least not at this moment – might be a way to allow them to take control of their own situation. That's a "rule" or boundary that, at least right now, isn't relevant to you, but opens the door for your partner to have similar opportunities that you have.
Altogether, I'd say, take baby steps. Start talking to each other about hypothetical relationships. Start talking about your needs, your vision. Have discussions, even disagreements or arguments now, about hypothetical situations, so you can iron out your initial boundaries right now, rather than when other people are involved.
And (not nearly) finally, remember that boundary-making is a process. They will continually be re-assessed. Start with broad strokes. Start negotiating them before you open things up. Revisit them regularly. As you go along and as new relationships form, you'll invariably find yourself making more logistical boundaries (No dates on weekends/dates every other weekend/maximum one date per week), or refining things (okay, I now think that kissing other partners on the lips is OK/NOT OK; I understand that you have a partner interested in this riskier sex practice but I am not okay with that/I am okay with that; I actually do/do not want to meet your partners/you meet my partners). Perhaps, in the end, this whole thing isn't for you and you pull back into a monogamous relationship, knowing that that is legitimately what you're comfortable with, not simply because it's (unfortunately) society's default, but because you've sampled the flavours and you know it's your favourite.
Good luck, communicate, and READ THAT BOOK.
My partner and I both read the following book and went from there:
https://www.amazon.com/Ethical-Slut-Third-Practical-Relationships/dp/0399579664
Oh, well I don't mean to be terribly harsh, imply you are a bad person, or make it all your fault--I personalize my experience by recognizing the inflection points where I could have consciously made a decision to change course for MY best interest, what was I capable of then, and how can I recognize similar and let myself react better moving forward. But that's just me--a lifetime of toxic relationships. Like you said, I don't know the whole story--but I am trying to contribute something useful to your understanding of the situation and for moving forward based on what I'm hearing.
If that chick were here asking for advice I'd probably be trying to get her to acknowledge her "missteps" as well (imo polys really should, for a variety of reasons, be proactive about ensuring their partners (shareholders?) are completely comfortable with the arrangement and otherwise prepared to break it off for that person's own good). It's all nicely explained in 'the Ethical Slut' if you're the masochistic type who wants to get into her head. Basically polyamory means serious and sexual relationships with multiple people--not just fwb but emotionally intimate and developing bonds that can essentially become marriages (possibly in addition to other fwb or casual sex affairs). There's just no "feel" that this is wronging any of them nor that they "should" choose one exclusively. She's young too, but actually a lot of polys eventually ONLY get involved with other polys just to avoid the emotional minefield. Like I'd say, "Jesus, he's just a NORMAL guy who wants you exclusively and that's not going to change so, since you like him, take him out of your rotation before he gets hurt."
I have anxiety too. I'd recommend redirecting things like > but I wasn’t strong enough
into something less negative-self-talky like, "It was really hard for me to step back and do an honest emotional risk/reward analysis when I was basically falling in love with her." You are not a robot and you've not really done anything wrong. You were falling for who she was and looking past how she was treating YOUR relationship. If you HAD taken that objective survey of the situation you could have spared yourself some angst and pain. Live and learn and the NEXT time you find yourself in a serious relationship conflict, you have the opportunity to see the parallel and take the time to face what you can realistically expect and prioritize what YOU need.
Probably I underestimated your raw emotional state and need to vent while feeling wronged. I do appreciate your calm, non-brutal-personal-attack response to my post and for the most part similar in your long long discussion with the other guy who's name eludes me. You seem like a guy who could really benefit from therapy (That's not an insult, it's a compliment; you're open to thinking through how you feel and want to express yourself. People waste years to get to that point in therapy).
I like the idea of this thread, and it's thoughtful for you to put the effort into trying to help someone in this state.
> I told him that there is no way what he’s saying is true and he needs to stop believing that about himself and I also shared how there are plenty of people who will see value in you when you see value in yourself as corny as that sounds.
As a general rule, I'm not a fan of just do XYZ advice. That's not a critique; it takes time, and not everybody can invest much into this. I think it was thoughtful for you to offer an compassionate ear. I sometimes like to ask questions about what people do for fun. I do this for two reasons: first, it encourages people to check in with themselves. What am I doing? What would I like to do? How am I socializing? What is keeping me from it? It also teaches people that they can check in with others, which is the foundation for building a connection with people.
And that leads to another point: sometimes people simply feel alone, and view sex as a kind of validation. That's where therapy comes into play: sex is fun. Sex is social. Sex is a thing that partners can share. But if sex is an ends to a means for proving something, then it's no longer a shared experience between partners. It makes those partners into gatekeepers, and that's a distorted view (and incidentally another good reason to see a therapist: to work through the underlying reasons that someone might be experiencing this distortion).
>...there are plenty of people who will see value in you when you see value in yourself as corny as that sounds.
It's easy to slip into the mindset that this needs to be a paradox: how can one love themselves if others don't? How will others know how to love you if you can't love yourself? I know that a while back I needed help, but I couldn't quantify it. All I could do was acknowledge that whatever I was doing at the time just wasn't working. Therapy helped me and two years later my window shifted all over: I date actively now, I go out and strike up conversations, and my old defeatist self would have never taken the exams I'm taking, and I'm about to take my eighth in three months... and in the wake of a very expensive failure. What keeps me going? Learning to forgive myself when I fuck up. How does one do that? I'd like to say that it comes from developing a healthy relationship between yourself, your goals, and how you mediate between them without trying to please the ghosts of your past, but I don't know if others have had the experiences that I've had. But back to the point: sex and dating are one piece of a whole.
It's ok to feel disappointed. The challenge is learning how to deal with those feelings in a way that acknowledges that you're not alone but also respects your feelings as your feelings.
Anyway, that's a lot of statement. Here are some thoughts to your actual question about resources.
Resources:
I tried to structure this list around ease-of-access - that is: easy to read/watch.
Planned Parenthood - Virginity
Planned Parenthood does a great job discussing the various means through which people can lose virginity. What I like about this resource is that it points out that virginity itself can be arbitrary.
SoNotable: I think there are a few types of virginity, including innocence (not knowing what sex is, lost when you regularly watch porn and develop an understanding of the concept of sex), partnered (Never having had sex with a partner, lost when you are intimate with a partner), and shared (the first time you sleep with somebody/ies and get through the initial "how do we communicate"-isms).
A documentary of sorts that describes the concept and history of virginity. It's mainly told from the perspective of young women, but the concepts discussed applies to young men as well.
Is it counter-intuitive to suggest a book to virgins that discusses polyamorous relationships? I don't think so. This book focuses on emotional honesty and makes talking about sex a lot easier. Virgins can (and should learn to be) sex-positive.
Web: GirlsAskGuys.com
This is a site that encourages people to ask and answer questions, and has a fairly balanced population. If someone has a question that they feel might be gender-specific, it makes it easier to know who is answer from which perspective.
While I wouldn't recommend reading a 900+ page sex manual cover to cover, this book is great because it covers a ton about sex, including things that might cause anxiety or stage fright. I've loaned my copy out to friends who've confided in me, and it's helped them. It also does a good job of normalizing sex-talk.
I'm currently studying a lot and focusing on personal development, but I want to expand this reading list once I've finished my current side project. In the mean time I'm sure others can add a few items.
I hope this offers some ideas that you can take and use. Also, most of my suggestions relate to sex and sexuality from a man's perspective; adding some resources for woman would be greatly appreciated :)
General Resources around Masculinity
/r/MensLib is a subreddit that discusses masculinity and politics in a constructive, pro-feminist voice. I like this sub because it encourages discussion of masculinity as a non-zero-sum game.
Also: someone recently told me about a sportsball player (I think Basketball?) who started discussing masculinity and hosting retreats for men. I believe his name was Chae or Shae or something like that. I'd appreciate if someone could help me figure this out, as I'd started reading briefly before getting sidetracked.
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