> Did James and his flock still follow the Mosaic law as Jewish Christians?
Yes.
Jesus, Joseph and Mary were Jews; the apostles, disciples and early Jesus followers were Jews. Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, these early Jesus followers were known as the Way
These, convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, continued to function much like a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism. The early Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Sabbath, the Way met in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day (aka Sunday).
The early Jesus followers would look and operate much like what we’d call Messianic Judaism. Due to the success of the Great Commission, Paul’s conversion and successful missions, we find an influx of Gentiles. Due to the influx the Jewish Jerusalem believers felt the Gentiles should convert to Judaism. The Jerusalem Council of 50AD was called to settle the matter.
> And even James made the judgment for the Gentile Christians to follow some food laws such as to abstain " from what has been strangled, and from blood."
James presides and makes a judgment that they would not force Gentiles to convert. Basically James repeats the Old Testament requirements to make Gentiles “proselytes of the gate” and hold them to the Noahide laws. The Jews believed all men are sons of Noah.
62 AD – High Priest Ananus charges James (brother of Jesus) of transgressing the Law; James executed in Jerusalem.
64 AD – Great Fire of Rome.
64AD – Peter martyred?
68AD – Paul martyred?
66-73AD – The Great Revolt (Judea/Galilee revolt against Rome.) The Roman Empire Jerusalem systematically raided/ransacked/obliterated Jerusalem and slaughters thousands, ransacks the Temple artifacts and destroys the Temple. James, Peter and Paul are dead, the Temple is destroyed and Jerusalem falls.
The first split in Christianity is finalized. Pharisaic Judaism evolved into Rabbinic Judaism and Gentile Christianity now gains strength in outlying areas of Alexandria, Antioch and Rome.
> I was wondering which denomination was the exception?
Short answer: the early Jesus followers known as the Way.
Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, the early Jesus followers were known as the Way
Jesus left no organization or institution outside of his disciples. Jesus, Joseph and Mary were Jews; the apostles, disciples and early Jesus followers were Jews.
The early Jesus followers would look and operate nothing like Roman Catholicism; in fact it would be much closer to what we’d today call Messianic Judaism.
These are the believers Saul (later Paul) was persecuting. These, convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, continued to function much like a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
The early Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Jewish Saturday Sabbath, the Way met again in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day.
The absolute last thing the apostles would have considered would be patterning their leadership structure to look like that of Rome – who had just murdered Jesus and was systematically martyring their family and friends.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning is a good entry level, readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church is a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
History shows Roman Catholicism is a post-Nicaea development. This doesn’t necessarily mean Catholicism, or any another post-Nicaea affirming Christian denomination, cannot trace itself back to the historic, orthodox Christian faith.
Likewise while Lutheranism was the primary post-Reformation reform movement, and all Protestant denominations trace their lineage back to Lutherans, we do not insist we are the sole authority in primacy over them.
The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod (LCMS) is a denomination that confesses the historic, orthodox Christian faith, a faith built on “the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone”.
Pharisees were expert on their holy books.
Paul was a Hebrew and Pharisee; Paul converted and as a result became an apostle and his letters became a large portion of the New Testament.
Also, other Pharisees were converted and became Jesus followers. In fact Jesus, Joseph and Mary were Jews; the apostles, disciples and early Jesus followers were Jews. All the early converts who became Jesus followers were Jews.
The early Jesus followers were known as the Way Convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, they continued to function much like a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
The early Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Jewish Sabbath, the Way met in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day.
70 AD – The separation of Judaism and Christianity was only finalized after Rome ransacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning details the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
Also the History Of The Christian Church is a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
> And Jesus showing miracles doesn't prove he was messiah since lots of other old testament people also showed miracles.
Tentatively agree.
> Since Jesus never fullfiled prophecies, Christian had to create "second coming" teaching, so he could fullfil it.
Unsupported claim you haven’t argued or supported.
> Also the idea of Jesus paying Christians' sins on cross also has been created for making Jesus look like he actually did something.
Unsupported claim you haven’t argued or supported.
> But Torah says "No man will die for others sin".
It does, but that’s not all the Torah says about atonement for sins.
On the Day of Atonement the priest procures atonement. He purifies himself, enters the Holy of Holies, and sacrifices a bull and goat for a sin offering for the people. He sprinkles their blood on the atonement cover of the ark. The priest is anointed, ordained and puts on the sacred linen garments and make atonement for the Most Holy Place, for the tent of meeting and the altar, and for the priests and all the members of the community. This is to be a lasting ordinance for you: Atonement is to be made once a year for all the sins of the Israelites.” Leviticus 16, The Day of Atonement
In the New Testament Jesus is equated to the high priest forever in the order of Melchizedek. (Hebrews 3:1, 4:14, 6:20, 8:1)
1. Jesus, Joseph and Mary were Jews; the apostles, disciples and early Jesus followers were Jews.
2. Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, these early Jesus followers were known as the Way
3. These, convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, continued to function much like a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
4. The early Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws.
5. Keeping the Saturday Sabbath, the Way met in each other’s homes on Sunday, what they called the Lord’s Day.
6. After Rome ransacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple in 70AD, and with the ensuing influx of new Gentile converts, the outer Gentile areas drop the Jewish Saturday sabbath and keep the sabbath on Sunday.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning is a good entry level, readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church is a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
> Does not subscribe to the dogma of another faith
This is problematic in this context. The early Jesus followers (including the apostles) were Jews and didn’t separate Judaism and being a Jesus follower — they viewed following Jesus a continuation of Judaism.
1. Jesus, Joseph and Mary were Jews; the apostles, disciples and early Jesus followers were Jews.
2. Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, these early Jesus followers were known as the Way
3. They were convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah and continued to function much like a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
4. The early Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Jewish Saturday Sabbath, the Way met in each other’s homes on the next day Sunday aka the Lord’s Day.
The early Jesus followers would look and operate much like what we’d call Messianic Judaism.
Citations:
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning is a good entry level, readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church is a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
5. Jesus is quoted as saying he, was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”.
6. Jesus is quoted as commissioning his disciples to “make disciples of all nations” aka the Great Commission
7. The New Testament teaches that Jesus was sent to Jews, the apostles (Greek apostolos, sent ones) were sent to the world (to include Gentiles) and later Paul (the apostle to the Gentiles) corroborates that the gospel is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the <strong>Jew first</strong> and also to the Greek (read Gentile).
> Believes in God
Problematic. The Bible teaches Satan and his demons believe in God. The Bible relates, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
Believing doesn’t necessarily equate to Christian ergo saved.
> Now, your average modern Christian is going to require the Nicene Creed as well, but this is problematic, since there are important Christians prior to the adoption of the Nicene Creed who did not subscribe to it for one reason or another.
Handwaving the ecumenical creeds is highly problematic. Jesus followers prior to the adoption of the Apostle’s and Nicene Creeds did subscribe to the scriptural principles the creeds were drawn from.
Paul’s letters record Pre-Pauline Creeds that are the earliest creedal traditions of the earliest Jesus followers written a short time after Jesus’ death and resurrection. “In very nature God, was in appearance a man, was obedient to death on a cross then exalted to the highest place and given a name above every name – and at this name every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.
> I believe in God ..., respect the teachings of Jesus
The term “respect” is ambiguous. It’s impossible to make a determination until you really unpack what that means to you.
> but even in non-Christian secular history books, the account of how Christianity was practiced from the beginning till 1400 to 1500, is evident that Christianity until recently reflects Ortho-Catholic beliefs.
That’s a gross historical inaccuracy. In reality academic scholarship shows that the early Jesus followers were called the Way who would have closely resembled Messianic Jews – not Roman Catholicism.
In fact is Roman Catholicism would probably charge the early Christians as heretics. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots and the Way (a reference to Jesus teaching, “I am the way and the truth and the life.) was another expression of Judaism.
Believing Jesus was the Jewish Messiah the Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Because they kept the Saturday Sabbath, they met on the following day (Sunday, what they called the Lord’s Day) to devote themselves to the apostles' teaching, the fellowship and to the breaking of bread and the prayers.
Believing Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, and would come back in their lifetime, there was no necessity for authority, organization or dedicated places of worship. So the Jesus followers continue with a group of presbyter/elders who functioned much like the Judean presbyter elders of the Jewish synagogues.
This relatively continued up to the turn of the century as Clement, the bishop of Rome, wrote to the church in Corinth to reassert the authority of the local bishops/elders/presbyters as rulers of the church – on the ground that the Apostles had appointed such. The First Epistle Of Clement To The Corinthians, Chp 44
Even up to the 325 Council of Nicaea we see no one monarchical ruler over all Christendom. We know Roman Emperor Constantine organized, oversaw and presided over the council. "The emperor gave patient attention to the speeches of both parties" and "deferred" to the decision of the bishops.” Book 1, Chapter 20, Sozomen, <em>The Ecclesiastical History of Sozomen</em>
The bishop of Rome was seen simply as one of the leaders and not one who had jurisdiction over the other bishops in other regions. (Canon 6 of The Canons of the 318 Holy Fathers Assembled in the City of Nice, in Bithynia.) “It is evident that the Council has not in view here the primacy of the Bishop of Rome over the whole Church, but simply his power as a patriarch,” (Hefele, History Councils, Vol. I., p. 397.)
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning by Daniel Walker
History Of The Christian Church (The Complete Eight Volumes In One) by Philip Schaff
> Protestantism does not make a lot of sense.
Protestantism vs Catholicism is a false equivalency. There are no collectively held Protestant doctrines to make sense of. To characterize not-Catholic-or-Orthodox as “Protestant” making claims about it’s “doctrines” – all your proving is that you don’t know what Protestantism is.
Pro-tip: just because someone isn’t Roman Catholic, and holds different views, doesn’t mean we’re anti-Catholic.
Let’s unpack the first one:
The Sabbath Day
vs
Exodus: the second book of the Torah. Here the author (traditionally Moses) is recording a commandment to keep the Sabbath rest. By resting on the seventh day and sanctifying it, Jews remember and acknowledge that G-d is the creator of heaven and earth and all living things. Resting emulates the divine example, by refraining from work on the seventh day, as G-d did. Shabbat is the most important ritual observance in Judaism and is the only ritual observance instituted in the Ten Commandments. It is also the most important special day, even more so than Yom Kippur.
Romans: Paul’s letter to the Romans is written post-Jesus to both Jewish and Gentile Jesus followers in Rome. Paul addresses both groups.
Convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah who founded a new covenant with the covenant system, the early Jesus followers continued to function as a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
These early Jesus followers continued to follow ancestral Jewish markers: go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Saturday Sabbath, the Way then met with each other in each other’s homes on Sunday (what they considered the Lord’s Day.)
The early Jesus followers would look a lot like Messianic Judaism. James assumed leadership of the Jerusalem Christian community; the apostles/leaders functioned as a group of presbyters who apparently acted somewhat like the Judean presbyter elders of the Jewish synagogues.
Due to the influx of Gentile the relationship was awkward and clunky. We see this at the Jerusalem Council of Acts 15. Paul even records that Peter would eat with the Gentile converts but would withdraw himself when the men from James would visit because he was afraid of the party of the circumcision. The rest of the Jews joined him in this hypocrisy. Paul confronted him publically asking, “how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?”
The separation of Christianity from Judaism would be pretty much complete after Rome ransacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple (70 AD).
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
What Paul is addressing in Romans is this clunky nature of whether Gentiles need to keep Jewish ancestral markers (aka keeping the Saturday Sabbath.) Paul is saying that these matters are left to each individual according to their conscience. In his letter to the Colossians Paul writes, “Therefore let no one judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a feast, a New Moon, or a Sabbath.”
At the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15 James ruled that the Gentiles aren’t obliged to keep Jewish ancestral markers. Paul advises that they aren’t to judge Jewish Jesus followers (or anyone else) on the matter. To Paul the observance or non-observance of the days referred to was a matter in itself of no importance. He was content that each person should act up to his own conscientious convictions on the subject.
tl;dr: I guess I don’t see the contradiction.
> The early Church wasn't split into denominations like it is now, it was just the Church as a whole, the one holy catholic and apostolic Church as they called themselves.
Historically and biblically inaccurate.
From scripture we know for a fact they did not call themselves the “one holy catholic and apostolic Church”. The post-Pentecost early Jesus followers were known as the Way. Convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, the Way continued to function much like a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
As such the early Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Jewish Saturday Sabbath, the Way met in each other’s homes on the next day Sunday aka the Lord’s Day.
The early Jesus followers would look and operate much like what today we’d call Messianic Judaism.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning is a good entry level, readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church is a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
> So yes and no, the Catholic Church did inasmuch as they can trace their history back to the early Church
All post-Nicaea Trinitarian confessing Christian Churches who belief and confess the ecumenical creeds trace their history back to the early Church.
> Apostolic Succession is necessary in order to claim that Jesus Christ founded your denomination.
As far as I know only the Catholic Church makes the audacious claim to be founded by Jesus Christ more than 2,000 years ago.
That claim is highly problematic. The early Jesus followers were known as the Way. Convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, the Way continued to function much like a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
These are the early Church that Saul, later Paul, was persecuting. He asked the high priest for letters to the synagogues.
Q: Why the synagogues?
A: The early Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Jewish Sabbath, the Way then met in each other’s homes on the next day aka the Lord’s Day.
The early Jesus followers would look and operate nothing like Roman Catholicism; in fact the absolute last thing the apostles would have considered would be patterning their leadership structure to look like that of Rome – who had just brutally murdered Jesus and was systematically martyring their family and friends.
According to history and scripture the first Jesus followers would be much closer to what we’d today consider Messianic Judaism.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning is a good entry level, readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church is a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
1. Jesus, Joseph and Mary were Jews.
2. The apostles, disciples and early Jesus followers were Jews.
3. Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, these early Jesus followers were known as the Way
4. These, convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, continued to function much like a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
5. The early Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Saturday Sabbath, the Way met in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day.
The early Jesus followers would look and operate much like what we’d call Messianic Judaism.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning is a good entry level, readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church is a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
> There has been only one church that has been preaching the gospel throughout these years! That church is known as the holy catholic church that Jesus founded!
Sorry but no. The early Jesus followers would look and operate nothing like Catholicism; it would’ve been much like what we’d call Messianic Judaism. The absolute last thing the apostles would have considered would be patterning their leadership structure to look like that of Rome – who had just murdered Jesus and was systematically martyring their family and friends.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church, comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
> What if the only church that Jesus founded is found in the bible?
It is. Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, the early Jesus followers were known as the Way
> What if the apostles confessed their belief in that holy church?
The apostles and the Way, convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, continued to function much like a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
The early Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Sabbath, the Way met in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day (aka Sunday).
> I’ve overheard some Catholics saying the Bible was first written and transcribed by them?
Just an observation but Reddit users chronically write positive statements – but then end them with a question mark. Very passive and confusing. The way this is written it’s as though you’re asking us, anonymous people who weren’t there, if you overheard what you’re telling us you overheard.
> What denomination was first?
1. Jesus left no organization or institution outside of his disciples.
2. Jesus, Joseph and Mary were Jews; the apostles, disciples and early Jesus followers were Jews.
3. Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, these early Jesus followers were known as the Way
4. These, convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, continued to function much like a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
5. The early Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Sabbath, the Way met in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day (aka Sunday).
The early Jesus followers would look and operate nothing like Roman Catholicism; in fact it would be much closer to what we’d call Messianic Judaism. The absolute last thing the apostles would have considered would be patterning their leadership structure to look like that of Rome – who had just murdered Jesus and was systematically martyring their family and friends.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning is a good entry level, readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church is a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
> I see anti-Catholic posts upvoted constantly on this sub
I see the opposite, which likely just proves we each filter perceptions via our relative perspectives not to mention that we define “anti-Catholic” much differently.
I was subbed to /r/Catholicism and replied to a user’s comments about what the early Jesus followers believed. I wrote that they would have operated very much like Messianic Jews and included linked citations from academic sources. The early Jesus followers were Jews who were convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah. They continued to function much like a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
I was promptly banned for “anti-Catholic rhetoric”. I think when you are addressing this sub not respecting diverse views we need to put that in perspective.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning is a good entry level, readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church is a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
> The Catholic and Orthodox churches are not full-on heretical organizations that contain no real believers.
Lutherans in general consider Catholics to be brothers and sisters in Christ. Lutherans and Catholics actually agree on much. Personally I’d love nothing more than reconciliation.
> I say this: During the Medieval Period, the only churches active were the Orthodox and Catholic churches.
Correct. The Roman Catholic Church (in the West, with Latin as its main language) and the Eastern Orthodox Church (in the East, with Greek as its main language.)
> Jesus said, 'Upon this rock(Peter) I will build my church, and the Gates of Hell will not prevail against it', not 'The gates of hell will not prevail against it EXCEPT between 1000 and 1517'. So, I think this issue is more complex than it seems.
1. You added “(Peter)”; not Matthew. Relatively speaking only Catholic apologetics assert Peter was the capital “R” Rock.
2. We don’t know what Jesus said; the consensus is Jesus and his disciples spoke Aramaic.
3. What we do know is that the disciple Matthew was an eyewitness to the teaching recorded in Matthew 16 and that he recorded what Jesus said in Greek.
For those reading along: note that OP totally ignores New Testament scripture that specifically relates to new covenant Christians.
Christianity 101
1. The early Jesus followers were Jews who continued to follow Jewish ancestral markers.
2. Convinced Jesus was the Jewish messiah, they continued to function as a reform sect within Judaism. They were called “the Way” Acts 9:2; 19:9, 23; 22:4; 24:14, 22.
3. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
4. The Way continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions. They continued to observe Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and follow kosher dietary laws. They kept the Jewish Sabbath – and then met with each other as a sect on the next day (our Sunday) which they called the Lord’s Day.
5. Due to the success of the Great Commission, and Paul’s missions to the Gentiles, the little sect experiences a great influx of Gentile Jesus followers.
6. Jerusalem believers (Jewish believers from the party of the Pharisees) felt the Gentiles should follow Jewish ancestral markers – especially circumcision. Acts 15:5 The relationship between Judaism and the messianic sect became strained.
50 AD – The Jerusalem Council of Acts 15 was called to resolve the matter of the Gentiles. James makes the final judgment on the matter of the Gentiles, “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. James holds Gentile proselytes to the Noahide Laws.
7. Noahide Law vs Law of Moses
a. All humanity, including Jews and Gentiles, are descendants of Noah.
b. The Israelites (Jews) are descendants of Abraham.
The Noahide laws are binding upon all mankind; while the Mosaic Law was binding on Israel. In Judaism the Noahide laws were sufficient for Gentile proselytes before – and so rightly James rightly judges from scripture that they are as sufficient for the Gentile converts now.
Q: After the Jerusalem Council were the Gentile/Christians held to keeping Jewish Sabbaths?
No.
Q: So is Sunday the Christian sabbath?
A: No. Sunday (the Lord’s day) is not the direct counterpart to the Jewish sabbath.
Gentile Christians are under the new covenant in Christ’s blood. Christ is “Lord of the Sabbath” (Matthew 12:8) and Christ is our sabbath rest. Hebrews 3:11, 4:9-11.
The Jerusalem Council is for the most part the start of the separation between Judaism and Christianity.
66-73AD – The Great Revolt (Jewish revolts against Rome.) The Roman Empire retaliates with a vengeance and begins a systematic campaign to obliterate Jewish Jerusalem. Rome barricades Jerusalem, famine ensues and Jerusalem falls. Titus orders Jerusalem razed, slaughters thousands, ransacks the Temple artifacts and destroys the Temple.
8. The Jews scatter. The Levitical priesthood ceases, the Sadducees (Temple sect) vanish and sacrifices come to an immediate halt.
9. The separation of Judaism and Christianity is for the most part finalized. Pharisaic Judaism goes into exile and evolves into Rabbinic Judaism.
10. Gentile Christianity shifts to predominately Gentile/Christian areas like Antioch, Alexandria and Rome (each area having its own bishop/presbyters/elders.)
11. Here we find Gentile Christianity distancing themselves from Judaism and as such dropping the Jewish Sabbath in order to set themselves apart by worshiping on the Lord’s Day = Sunday.
12. This is why Justin Martyr, writing between 155-157AD, describes the weekly worship of the Christians: “And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place … Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples … 1 Apol. chp. 67, Weekly Worship of the Christians
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church.
tl;dr: There’s no basis in scripture that Gentile Christians must keep ancestral Jewish markers like keeping the Jewish sabbath. This doesn’t mean the Mosaic Law is no longer relevant or important to Christians.
The closest to the original would be somewhat like Messianic Judaism. People who are of Jewish heritage with a New Covenant faith in Yeshua (Jesus) as Messiah.
Jesus, Joseph and Mary were Jews; the apostles, disciples and early Jesus followers were Jews. Jesus said he was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”. Jesus is the the mediator of a new covenant in his blood
Based on Jesus saying, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, the early Jesus followers were known as the Way
There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism. The early Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Sabbath, the Way met in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day (aka Sunday).
Saul (later Paul) asked the Jewish high priest for letters to the synagogues to find people belonging to the Way. Acts 9:1-2
A year after Saul’s conversion the disciples began to be called Christians.
This is why Paul wrote the gospel is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek (Gentile).
God established a new covenant within the covenant system He had previously established within Israel/Judaism. Convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, the Way continued to function as a reform sect within Judaism. The early Jesus followers were in fact another expression of Judaism. James assumed leadership of the home Church in Jerusalem and James, Peter, John and others worked as a group of presbyters acting somewhat like the Judean presbyter elders of the Jewish synagogues.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church: a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
I’ve watched this Priest’s various videos many times and he chronically misrepresents the Reformation and gets it wrong.
V. Apostolic Succession and its Transmission
Thus the transmission of the apostolic ministry is achieved through ordination: a rite with a visible sign and the invocation of God to grant to the ordinand the gift of his Holy Spirit and the powers that are needed for the accomplishment of his task.
The Holy Spirit, not a human or human organization, is the vicar of Christ.
1. After his resurrection Jesus appeared to his disciples saying, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.” John 20:19-23
2. Jesus explicitly instructed his disciples to, “wait for the gift my Father promised” Acts 1:4. He said, “Unless I go away, the Holy Spirit will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to You.”
3. The Holy Spirit is the “Lord and giver of life.” It is the Spirit that brooded over the primordial waters of Genesis; it is the Spirit by which Mary conceived. Unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (John 3:5).
4. So the disciples waited and kept to themselves like the dry bones in the valley waiting for <strong>the breath of the Spirit</strong> within them so that they may live. Ezekiel 37:1-14
5. On Pentecost the Holy Spirit is poured out and at this point the apostles are now brought to life and empowered to begin building the church via Word (preaching, teaching) and the sacraments.
6. Christendom believes and confesses: “… We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son ...” Nicene Creed
7. The Holy Spirit founded the Church at Pentecost and the Holy Spirit is the vicar of Christ. (Latin vicarius is “proxy", noun use of adjective vicarius "substituted, delegated," from vicis "change, interchange, succession; a place, position" (from PIE root weik- (2) "to bend, to wind").)
8. The visible sign, from the New Testament onward, is the imposition of hands and the rite of ordination expresses the truth that – what happens to the ordinand does not come from human origin.
9. “The wind blows where it wishes. You hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.” John 3:8
> There was a point when their denomination didn’t exist; and now it does. Where do they rest their authority? What makes them think they are the Church of Jesus? Honestly I don’t get it.
Here’s the Priest ignores the fact that there was a point when Roman Catholicism didn’t exist – and then it did.
The early Jesus followers were not Roman Catholics. Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, these early Jesus followers were known as the Way
Convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah these early Jesus followers continued to function under the umbrella of Judaism. They continued to follow ancestral Jewish markers: go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Jewish Sabbath, the Way then met with each other in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day.
Due to the influx of Gentiles this contentious relationship would change starting with the 50 AD Jerusalem Council of Acts 15. The separation of Christianity from Judaism would be complete after Rome ransacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple (70 AD).
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church: a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
It’s an overwhelmingly well-historically-documented fact that Roman Catholicism began in later centuries.
> I wish that they hadn’t felt the need to start something new and break from a succession of authority to claim a new type of authority.”
A common uncharitable misrepresentation. The Reformers did not intend to start something new, they did not intend to break from Roman Catholicism and did not claim a new type of authority.
Pope Francis: “I think that the intentions of Martin Luther were not mistaken. He was a reformer. Perhaps some methods were not correct. But in that time, if we read the story of the Pastor, a German Lutheran who then converted when he saw reality – he became Catholic – in that time, the Church was not exactly a model to imitate. There was corruption in the Church, there was worldliness, attachment to money, to power...and this he protested. Then he was intelligent and took some steps forward justifying …” – Pope Francis' in-flight press conference from Armenia (on the occasion of the 500th anniversary of the Reformation.)
1. Luther did not want to start a new Church. Luther was a Catholic Priest, a doctor of theology with a bachelor’s degree in Biblical studies. Luther was received into the senate of theological facility at the Catholic University of Wittenberg succeeding to the chair of theology.
2. Roman Catholicism’s abuse of indulgences started the Reformation.
3. Luther did not quit the Church; he was excommunicated.
Jesus
1. Jesus didn’t found a church; he left no established institution.
2. Jesus made it very clear that he was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”.
3. Jesus is the the mediator of a new covenant in his blood.
4. God founded this new covenant within the covenant system that God had previously established within Israel/Judaism.
5. This harmonizes the NT with the OT.
Jesus is the founder of salvation and the founder our faith.
6. What Jesus left: apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers so that the body of Christ may be built up.
7. Jesus commissioned his disciples to “make disciples of all nations” (aka the Great Commission.)
8. Jesus shared his intent with his apostles (Greek, apostolos, a messenger, one sent on a mission) that they build an ekklesia (a people “called out to assemble”) from all nations to be the mystical body of believers called out from the world and into His eternal kingdom.
9. Paul corroborates: the gospel is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek (Gentile). This harmonizes scripture. In fact the Jesus followers weren’t even called Christians until a year after Paul’s conversion.
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Q: So what is the “founding” church?
The Holy Spirit
10. Before returning to the Father, Jesus explicitly instructed his disciples to, “wait for the gift my Father promised” Acts 1:4. “Unless I go away, the Holy Spirit will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to You.” The Holy Spirit is the “Lord and giver of life.”
11. So they waited and kept to themselves.
Q: Was their a Church at this point?
A: There was no Church that could baptize and administer the sacraments.
12. On Pentecost the Holy Spirit is poured out and at this point the apostles are now empowered to build the church: preaching, teaching and administering the sacraments.
The Holy Spirit founded the new covenant church at Pentecost.
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The Church
13. Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, the early Jesus followers were known as the Way
14. Convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah the early Jesus followers continued to function as a reform sect within Judaism.
There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
They continued to follow ancestral Jewish markers: go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws.
Keeping the Jewish Saturday Sabbath, the Way met with each other in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day.
These early Jesus followers would, generally speaking, be something like Messianic Judaism. These early Jesus followers expressed the new covenant within the Jewish heritage.
15. Due to the Great Commission and influx of Gentile proselytes, this contentious relationship would change starting with the 50 AD Jerusalem Council of Acts 15.
The separation of Christianity from Judaism would be complete after Rome ransacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple (70 AD).
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church: a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
> I'm not sure what you mean,
1. Jesus did not replace the Old Covenant Law.
2. The Old Covenant Law remains intact until all is accomplished aka the end.
3. Jesus ~~replaced~~ fulfilled the Old Covenant Law; he did the Father’s and kept the Law.
Jesus Christ is alone in this; there is no one beside him. Jesus alone pleased the Father. Jesus Christ is the narrow path.
Early Christians
1. Jesus, Joseph and Mary were Jews.
2. Jesus said he was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” aka Old Covenant Jews.
Q: Why?
A: Because Jesus is the the mediator of a new covenant in his blood
3. The apostles/disciples and early converts of Jesus followers were Jews.
4. Jesus said, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6
5. So the early Jesus followers were known as the Way
6. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
7. We know the early Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Jewish Sabbath, the Way then met in each other’s homes on the next day aka the Lord’s Day or Sunday.
This is why Saul (later Paul) asked the Jewish high priest for letters to the synagogues to find people belonging to the Way. Acts 9:1-2
Reference:
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church: a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
50 AD Jerusalem Council
1. Due to the success of the Great Commission, and Paul’s missions to the Gentiles, the Way experiences a great influx of Gentile Jesus followers.
2. Jerusalem believers (Jewish Jesus followers) felt the new Gentiles should follow Jewish ancestral markers especially circumcision. Acts 15:5
3. James made a final judgment on the matter of the Gentiles, “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God.”
James and the early Church unanimously decided new Gentile proselytes are only required to keep the Noahide Laws – not ancestral Jewish markers (all the Old Covenant Jewish laws.)
Q: Why?
A: Because all nations are descendants of Noah – and only Jews are descendants of Abraham.
> but have you circumcised, or wear side curls, or wear tefillin, or keep kosher diet, or avoid mixed fabrics etc?
No. I’m a New Covenant Gentile Jesus follower.
I’ve submitted to grace through faith in Jesus Christ who fulfilled the Old Covenant Law. They no longer convict me “in Christ”. The Law now serves to help me become more Christlike; they’re a standard to check and curb my actions.
> Why are you not Catholic?
Lutherans believe Catholics are brothers and sisters in Christ. We actually agree on much but differ on a few key points. They’re dogma, doctrines and decrees on these points are biblically problematic.
> In my country, recently some Protestants converted to Catholicism, seeking a "historic faith"
A common misconception is Catholicism is the “historic faith”.
1. The early Jesus followers were known as the Way
2. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
3. The early Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws.
4. Keeping the Jewish Sabbath, the Way met in each other’s homes on the next day aka the Lord’s Day (Sunday).
5. This is why Saul (later Paul) asked the Jewish high priest for letters to the synagogues to find people belonging to the Way. Acts 9:1-2
Q: Would Roman Catholics continue to keep all these ancestral Jewish markers?
A: No.
Q: Why?
A: Because they weren’t Roman Catholics.
> Any book or YouTube channel to strengthen the protestant position?
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a short readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church: a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
Even Protestant historians like J.N.D. Kelly acknowledge that the Catholic Church was first.
False.
Actually Bible scholars and historians acknowledge that the first believers where Jewish Jesus followers known as the Way.
The Way functioned as a sect within Judaism.
Historians know there was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
The early Jesus followers continued to follow ancestral Jewish markers: go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. The Way kept the Jewish Sabbath, and then met as a sect in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day.
This is why scripture records that Saul (later Paul), when wanting to persecute the first Christians, asked the Jewish high priest for letters to the synagogues to find the Jesus followers that belonged to the Way. Acts 9:1-2
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church: a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
> Historically, there were no other Christian Churches for the first 1000 years of Christianity. In 1054 A.D., the Orthodox splintered off. Protestantism didn't begin until the 16th century, started by an ex-Catholic monk, Martin Luther.
Gross historical inaccuracy. See Schism in Christianity for a laundry list of splits/schisms in the first 1000 years of Christianity.
tagging /u/Jon-987
> What about the Catholic Church's claim that it is the original church that existed until the reformation happened?
That’s the best way to approach the topic because Roman Catholicism is (generally) unified, has collectively agreed upon doctrines and an agreed upon central leadership structure.
Roman Catholicism’s claim can be shown faulty with evidences from scripture and history.
1. It’s obvious from scripture that the early Jesus followers were not Roman Catholic.
2. The early Jesus followers were known as the Way.
3. The Way functioned as a sect within Judaism.
4. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
5. The early Jesus followers continued to follow ancestral Jewish markers: go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. The Way kept the Jewish Sabbath, and then met as a sect in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day.
This is why Saul (later Paul) asked the Jewish high priest for letters to the synagogues to find early Jesus followers that belonged to the Way. Acts 9:1-2
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church: a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
For in-depth comments with links see my previous post.
There’s no scriptural basis, therefore no evidence, for the papacy.
The Way
Jesus, Joseph and Mary were Jews; the disciples, apostles, and early Jesus followers were Jews.
Scripture quotes Jesus as plainly saying he was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”. Jesus is the the mediator of a new covenant in his blood
The early Jesus followers were known as the Way
There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
The early Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Sabbath, the Way met in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day (aka Sunday).
Hardly Roman Catholic practices.
Saul (later Paul) asked the Jewish high priest for letters to the synagogues to find people belonging to the Way. Acts 9:1-2
Q: If Jesus founded a new religion with a Pope, why would Roman Catholics be found in Jewish synagogues?
A: They wouldn’t.
We know James, not Peter, assumed leadership of the Jerusalem Christian community. Eusebius records James was elected to preside over the home Church on account of his virtue and because Peter, James and John did not strive for honor. Church History Book II, chp 1.2 and 1.3
God established a new covenant within the covenant system He had previously established within Israel/Judaism. Convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, the Way continued to function as a reform sect within Judaism. The early Jesus followers were in fact another expression of Judaism. James, Peter, John and others worked as a group of presbyters acting somewhat like the Judean presbyter elders of the Jewish synagogues.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church: a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
After Stephen was stoned, a zealous Saul (later Paul) wanted to persecute followers of the Way. So much so that He asked the Jewish high priest for letters to the synagogues so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. Acts 9:1-2
Q: Would Roman Catholics be found in Jewish synagogues?
A: No. The early Jesus followers (aka the Way) were another expression of Judaism. This harmonizes scripture.
Saul’s Conversion
Saul went Jerusalem 3 years after his conversion (Acts 9:26-30,Gal.1:18-24). Paul meets Cephas and James (brother of Jesus) who are satisfied that Paul’s gospel was a revelation of the resurrected Jesus Christ. Paul never mentioned one apostle in primacy and authority over all – Paul does refers to them as pillars and esteemed leaders. Paul records that James, Cephas and John were all pillars and all gave him the right hand of fellowship.
Paul records that Peter’s ministry was an apostle to the circumcised aka Jews.
Peter describes himself as: A.) an apostle, B.) a fellow elder and a witness and C.) as a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ.
Peter exhorts to not domineer over those in your charge but instead be to subject to the elders (not to him) and asserts that Jesus Christ is the chief Shepherd. (1 Peter 5:1-7).
Due to the success of the Great Commission and Paul’s missions to the Gentiles, the sect experiences a great influx of Gentile Jesus followers.
Jewish Jesus followers from Jerusalem felt the Gentile Jesus followers should follow Jewish ancestral markers especially circumcision. Acts 15:5
The apostles and elders met to consider the question. After discussion and debate James makes the final judgment on the matter, “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. James holds Gentile proselytes to the Noahide Laws. Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose and send men to Antioch with a letter.
Conclusion: James, not Peter, assumed leadership of the home Church in Jerusalem. The apostles were esteemed as pillars and delegated authority and made decisions collectively.
This continued to the turn of the first century. Clement, bishop of Rome 88-99AD, wrote to Corinth to reassert the authority of the local bishops/elders/presbyters as rulers of the church on the ground that the Apostles had appointed such. The First Epistle Of Clement To The Corinthians, Chp 44
To this point there is no evidence for monarchical bishops in authority over all Christendom.
> Note that it was always kept on Saturday until sometime in the 300s AD when the Catholic Church decided to switch it to Sunday.
Historically inaccurate.
1. The early Jesus followers were Jews who continued to follow Jewish ancestral markers. Convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, They continued to function as a reform sect within Judaism called “the Way” Acts 9:2; 19:9, 23; 22:4; 24:14, 22.
2. They continued to go to synagogue, followed Mosaic Law and Temple traditions. They observed the Jewish holy days, practiced circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. They kept the Jewish Sabbath – and then met with each other as a sect on their first day of the week (our Sunday) which they called the Lord’s Day.
3. The separation of Christianity from Judaism started in 50 AD at the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15) and was pretty much finalized after Jewish Revolts against Rome and Rome responding by ransacking Jerusalem and destroying the Temple (70 AD).
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church: a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
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70AD – The Jewish Revolts, and Rome’s resulting destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, was a watershed moment.
70-135AD – Displaced Judaism evolves into Rabbinic Judaism and Gentile Christianity moves to outlying Gentile areas and here we see Gentile Christianity distancing themselves from Judaism and as such dropping the Jewish Sabbath to set themselves apart by worshiping on the Lord’s Day = Sunday.
4. Justin Martyr (writing between 155-157AD) describes the weekly worship of the Christians: “And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place … Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples … 1 Apol. chp. 67, Weekly Worship of the Christians
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313AD – Edict of Milan: established religious toleration for Christianity within the Roman Empire.
321AD – Emperor Constantine venerates Sunday (Day of the Sun) as a rest day for Romans. Codex Justinianus 3.12.3
364AD – “Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday but shall work on that day; but the Lord’s day they shall especially honour, and, as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If, however, they are found Judaizing, they shall be shut out from Christ.” Council of Laodicea, canon 29
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5. First, the Jewish calendar doesn't have names for the days of the week. They’re simply known as: first day, second day, third day, et al.
6. Second, Jewish days are reckoned from sunset to sunset. Our contemporary Romanized calendar recons days from midnight to midnight. (Using our Romanized contemporary calendar day) the Jewish sabbath sabbath began Friday at sunset and ended Saturday at sunset.
7. While the Lord’s day is Sunday it is not the direct counterpart to the Jewish sabbath (so not the “Christian Sabbath”.) Christians are under the new covenant in Christ’s blood. Christ is “Lord of the Sabbath” (Matthew 12:8) and Christ is our sabbath rest. Hebrews 3:11, 4:9-11.
1. The early Jesus followers were Jews who continued to follow Jewish ancestral markers.
2. Convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, they continued to function as a reform sect within Judaism called “the Way” Acts 9:2; 19:9, 23; 22:4; 24:14, 22.
3. They went to Temple/synagogue, followed Mosaic Law and Temple traditions. They observed the Jewish holy days, practiced circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws.
4. They kept the Saturday Jewish Sabbath – and then met with each other as a sect on the next day they called the Lord’s Day.
5. The relationship between Judaism and Christianity became somewhat contentious.
6. The beginnings of the separation between Christianity and Judaism started in 50 AD at the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15). It was finalized after the Jewish Revolts.
70AD – Jewish Revolts and Rome’s resulting destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, was a watershed moment.
Displaced without a Temple Judaism evolves into Rabbinic Judaism and Gentile Christianity moves to outlying Gentile areas.
Here we begin to see Gentile Christianity distancing themselves from Judaism and as such dropping the Jewish Sabbath to set themselves apart by worshiping on the Lord’s Day = Sunday.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church: a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
Justin Martyr (writing between 155-157AD) describes the weekly worship of the Christians: “And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place … Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples … 1 Apol. chp. 67, Weekly Worship of the Christians
313AD – Edict of Milan: established religious toleration for Christianity within the Roman Empire.
321AD – Emperor Constantine venerates Sunday (Day of the Sun) as a rest day for Romans. Codex Justinianus 3.12.3
364AD – “Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday but shall work on that day; but the Lord’s day they shall especially honour, and, as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If, however, they are found Judaizing, they shall be shut out from Christ.” Council of Laodicea, canon 29
Note: While the Lord’s day is Sunday it is not the direct counterpart to the Jewish sabbath (so not the “Christian Sabbath”.) Christians are under the new covenant in Christ’s blood. Christ is “Lord of the Sabbath” (Matthew 12:8) and Christ is our sabbath rest. Hebrews 3:11, 4:9-11.
> Why don’t Protestants study church history?
I dig church history:
Believing Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, the early Jesus followers, called the Way (Acts 9:2; 19:9, 23; 22:4; 24:14, 22), continued as a messianic sect under Judaism.
They continue to follow ancestral Jewish markers: go to Temple/synagogue, worship and follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions. They continue to observe Jewish holy days, circumcise and follow kosher dietary laws.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
Peter, James and John didn’t strive for honor and chose James (Jesus’ brother) to preside over the home church in Jerusalem. (Eusebius quoting Clement, Church History, Book II, Chp 1.2)
James, Peter, John, and others continue as a group of presbyters somewhat like Judean presbyter elders of the Jewish synagogues.
Stephen, a Hellenistic Jew, speaks publicly against the Pharisees; the Jewish leaders become enraged and Stephen is promptly killed.
Saul (later Paul) witnesses Stephen’s execution.
Enraged by Stephen, Saul (Paul) begins a personal mission to persecute and/or murder the followers of the Way. He shares murderous threats against the Lord’s disciples and asks for letters to be sent to the synagogues at Damascus “so that if he found any belonging to <em>the Way</em>, men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.” (Acts 9:1-2)
On the way to Damascus Saul sees a light from heaven flashed around him. Jesus’ voice instructs Saul to go to the house of Judas in Damascus. In a vision, Ananias is instructed by Jesus to restore Saul’s sight in Damascus. Saul goes to synagogues preaching Jesus as the Son of God.
Ironically now the Jews belonging to Judah were plotting to kill Saul.
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35/37 AD – 3 years after his conversion Saul to Jerusalem; visits apostles but they were afraid of him (they remember the “dragging out” and “murdering” Saul.)
Barnabas convinces them Saul converted and they stay with them in Jerusalem. Saul meets Cephas and James (brother of Jesus).
Peter/James are satisfied that Saul’s gospel was a revelation of the resurrected Jesus Christ. "James and Cephas and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given to me, they gave the right hand of fellowship to Barnabas and me ..." Galatians 2:9
Saul sent away to avoid capture. Acts 9:26-30, Galatians 1:18-24
38/40 AD – Anti Jewish riots in Alexandria. Jews were accused of not honoring the emperor; the Jews were angered by the erection of a clay altar and destroyed it. In response, Caligula orders the erection of a statue of himself in the Jewish Temple of Jerusalem.
41 AD – Agrippa I, ruler of Galilee, assumes control of Judea; executes James (son of Zebedee). Peter imprisoned, escapes.
45-46 AD – Barnabus to Tarsus, brings Saul to Antioch and they stay one year; here the disciples are first called Christians at Antioch.
Paul back to Jerusalem to deliver donations from Antioch believers to Jerusalem believers; stays short time then back to Antioch. Acts 11:28-30
47-48 AD – Paul’s 1st Missionary Journey; 6-9 months then back to Antioch.
Jewish Jesus followers from Judea travelled to Antioch teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.” Paul/Barnabus dispute and debate them.
49/50 AD – Paul/Barnabus appointed to go to Jerusalem to settle the Gentile/circumcision matter with the apostles and elders.
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Jerusalem Council
50AD – Jerusalem Council Acts 15: those who belonged to the party of the Pharisees speak first saying, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the Law of Moses.” Peter speaks next, then Paul and Barnabus speak.
James, leader of the home Church in Jerusalem, makes final judgment on the matter: “we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God.”
James relates the sentiments of Jeremiah 12:14-16: “… after I uproot them, I will again have compassion and will bring each of them back to their own inheritance and their own country. And if they learn well the ways of my people and swear by my name, saying, ‘As surely as the Lord lives’ — even as they once taught my people to swear by Baal — then they will be established among my people.”
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Council of Jerusalem judgment: James holds Gentiles to the Noahide Laws. This is the beginning of the separation of Judaism and Christianity.
This is a the beginning of Christianity separation from Judaism.
49/51 AD – Paul begins 2nd Missionary Journey Acts 15-17
51 AD – Paul brought before Gallio then released. Acts 18:12-18
52 AD – Paul takes a vow, has his head shaved; he and Priscilla and Aquila travel to Ephesus. Paul reasoned with the Jews at the synagogue but declines when they ask him to stay. Paul promises to come back and leaves for the next missionary journey hoping to be in Jerusalem for the Feast Acts 18:18-21.
53-57 AD – Paul 3rd Missionary Journey to include Paul’s final trip to Jerusalem (Romans 15:25-28, 1 Corinthians 16:1-4, Acts 21:15-18.) He carries another collection of donations to Jerusalem.
57-58AD – Stays with Philip a few days in Caesarea; leaves to visit James in Jerusalem. Paul follows James’s counsel Acts 21:18–24; Acts 24:17; 1 Cor. 16:1–4.
Paul’s presence at the temple causes a riot and he’s savagely beaten. The mob disperses when Roman soldiers arrive. Paul promptly arrested and imprisoned 2 years at Caesarea (Acts 21:17-26:32); transferred to Rome but shipwrecked. Travels to Rome by road (Acts 28:12-16.)
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60-63AD – Paul under house arrest in Rome. Paul before Roman authorities; charges dropped and he is set free.
62 AD – High Priest Ananus charges James (brother of Jesus) of transgressing the Law; James executed in Jerusalem.
64 AD – Great Fire of Rome; 10 of Rome’s 14 districts were burned due to thousands living in slums filled with poorly constructed wooden apartment buildings.. Soon after it becomes a crime to bear the name "Christian" (About twenty years had elapsed since the name arose in Antioch) and the suppression of the church becomes state policy.
64AD – Peter’s martyrdom under Nero.
67AD – Paul imprisoned again in Rome; writes letter to his closest friend Timothy.
68AD – Paul’s death; traditionally beheaded.
66-73AD – The Great Revolt (Judea/Galilee revolt against Rome.)
The Roman Empire retaliates from the Jewish Revolts with a vengeance and begins a systematic campaign to obliterate Jewish Jerusalem. Rome barricades Jerusalem, famine ensues and Jerusalem falls. Titus orders Jerusalem razed, slaughters thousands, ransacks the Temple artifacts and destroys the Temple. The Jews scatter (diaspora), the Levitical priesthood ceases, the Sadducees (Temple sect) vanish and sacrifices come to an immediate halt. (73AD.)
73 AD – Qumran falls and the Zealots are crushed at Masada ending the revolt.
After the Jewish Revolts and the destruction of the Temple, Pharisaic Judaism goes into exile and evolves into Rabbinic Judaism; the Jesus movement shifts to predominately Gentile areas of Antioch, Alexandria and Rome each having it’s own bishop/presbyters/elders.
This violent end finalizes the separation between Judaism and Christianity.
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Paul’s letters were copied and circulated very early and were the first texts of the New Testament in final/written form.
We know Paul’s letters to Romans, Corinthians and Philippians document creedal summaries of the earliest followers of the Way: Christ died for sins, was buried, was raised on the third day, appeared to Cephas, then the twelve. These Pre-Pauline Creeds date from as early as 35-40 C.E.
> Therefore, the Roman Catholic Church decreed Sunday as the holy day, changing it from the sabbath (Friday 6pm-Saturday 6pm)
Historically inaccurate.
The early Jesus followers were Jews who continued to follow Jewish ancestral markers. Convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, They continued to function as a reform sect within Judaism called “the Way” Acts 9:2; 19:9, 23; 22:4; 24:14, 22.
They continued to go to synagogue, followed Mosaic Law and Temple traditions. They observed the Jewish holy days, practiced circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws.
They kept the Jewish Sabbath – and then met with each other as a sect on their first day of the week (our Sunday) which they called the Lord’s Day.
The separation of Christianity from Judaism began in 50 AD at the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15) and was pretty much finalized after Jewish Revolts against Rome and Rome responding by ransacking Jerusalem and destroying the Temple (70 AD).
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church: a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
70AD – The Jewish Revolts, and Rome’s resulting destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, was a watershed moment.
70-135AD – Displaced Judaism evolves into Rabbinic Judaism and Gentile Christianity moves to outlying Gentile areas.
At this point we see Gentile Christianity distancing themselves from Judaism — and continuing to meet on the Lord’s Day = Sunday.
Justin Martyr (writing between 155-157AD) describes the weekly worship of the Christians: “And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place … Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples … 1 Apol. chp. 67, Weekly Worship of the Christians
313AD – Edict of Milan: established religious toleration for Christianity within the Roman Empire.
321AD – Emperor Constantine venerates Sunday (Day of the Sun) as a rest day for Romans. Codex Justinianus 3.12.3
364AD – “Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday but shall work on that day; but the Lord’s day they shall especially honour, and, as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If, however, they are found Judaizing, they shall be shut out from Christ.” Council of Laodicea, canon 29
1. The Lord’s day is Sunday and is not the direct counterpart to the Jewish sabbath (so not the “Christian Sabbath”.)
2. Christians exist under the new covenant in Christ’s blood. Christ is “Lord of the Sabbath” (Matthew 12:8) and Christ is our sabbath rest. Hebrews 3:11, 4:9-11.
In the Bible Jesus is quoted as saying that he was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”. As such Jesus is described as the the mediator of a new covenant in his blood
The Church was founded at Pentecost. Only after the Jesus ascended to the Father could the Father/Son then send the Holy Spirit to breath life into the Church. Now the Church can perform its duty: sinners can repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Based on Jesus saying, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, the early Jesus followers were known as the Way
There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism. The early Jesus followers continued to follow Jewish ancestral markers.
After Stephen was stoned, a zealous Saul (later Paul) wanted to persecute followers of the Way. So much so that He asked the Jewish high priest for letters to the synagogues so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. Acts 9:1-2
The early Jesus followers were another expression of Judaism. This harmonizes scripture. In fact was a year after Saul’s conversion before the disciples were even called Christians.
We know for a fact that James, not Peter, assumed leadership of the Jerusalem Christian community.
Eusebius records James the Just was elected bishop on account of his virtue and because Peter, James and John did not strive for honor. Church History Book II, chp 1.2 and 1.3
This is why at the Jerusalem Council of Acts 15 we see James presiding and making the final judgment on the matter of the Gentiles.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church: a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
Saul went Jerusalem 3 years after his conversion Acts 9:26-30, Galatians1:18-24. Paul met Cephas and James (brother of Jesus) who are satisfied that Paul’s gospel was a revelation of the resurrected Jesus Christ. Paul never mentioned one apostle in primacy and authority over all.
In scripture Paul refers to the apostles as pillars and esteemed leaders. Paul records that James, Cephas and John were all pillars and all gave him the right hand of fellowship.
Paul also records that Peter ate with the Gentile converts but would withdraw himself when the men from James would visit. In fact the rest of the Jewish Jesus followers joined him in this hypocrisy. Paul states it was because Peter was afraid of the party of the circumcision. Paul confronted Peter publicly asking, “how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?”
Q: Why?
A: Peter’s ministry was an apostle to the circumcised aka Jews. Peter favored the Jewish Jesus followers from James. Peter and many other Jews initially struggled with interacting and eating with Gentile proselytes.
Peter describes himself as: A.) an apostle, B.) a fellow elder and a witness and C.) as a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ.
Paul records that Peter’s apostolic ministry was to the circumcised.
Peter exhorts to not domineer over those in your charge but instead be to subject to the elders (not to him) and asserts that Jesus Christ is the chief Shepherd. (1 Peter 5:1-7).
From Paul we know Peter, James, John and others are collectively referred to as “esteemed leaders” and “pillars”.
That’s why Peter favored Jewish Jesus followers over Gentile proselytes. This harmonizes scripture.
Throughout scripture, God is the rock:
Samuel: “The Lord is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer …” 2 Samuel 22:2.
Daniel: “… a stone was cut out, but not by human hands”, “… the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth” and “in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever …” Daniel 2
Psalms: “He only is my rock and my salvation, my fortress; I shall not be shaken”, ““Blessed be the Lord, my rock …”, “The Lord lives, and blessed be my rock, and exalted be the God of my salvation” Psalm 18:46, Psalm 62:6 and Psalm 144:1.
Isaiah: “Trust in the Lord forever, for the Lord God is an everlasting rock.” Isaiah 26:4
Exodus: "Behold, I will stand before you there on the rock at Horeb, and you shall strike the rock, and water shall come out of it, and the people will drink.” Exodus 17:6 “And the Lord said, “Behold, there is a place by me where you shall stand on the rock, and while my glory passes by I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and I will cover you with my hand until I have passed by.” Exodus 33:21-23
Paul: “For I want you to know, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ.
Jesus is the crusher seed of the woman foretold in Genesis 3:15 – Daniel’s rock [crushed the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold …” Daniel 2:44-45
The Jewish disciples (and any Jewish reader) would clearly recognize that Jesus uses Son of Man language from Daniel and rock references from the Prophets. Daniel records a vision seeing one like the son of man presenting himself to the Ancient of Days. Daniel 7:13-14
After the teaching of Matthew 16, Peter and the others were never confused about who the rock was.
Peter describes Jesus as the living stone “being built up as a spiritual house”.. Peter, quoting Isaiah 28:16, describes Jesus as the precious cornerstone; Peter quotes Psalm 118:22 describing Jesus as the stone the builders rejected becoming the cornerstone and Peter quotes Isaiah 8:14 describing Jesus Christ as the stone that causes people to stumble, a rock that makes them fall. 1 Peter 2:4-8
In Matthew 16 Jesus is teaching his Jewish disciples who he is – not who Peter is.
Lutherans do not deny that Peter, James and John were privileged to be in Jesus inner circle. Lutherans do not have a problem with Peter being first among equals or even with Peter representing the Church in Matthew 16. Based on scripture we disagree that Peter had primacy and authority or that Peter alone held the office of the keys.
Par for the course; the linked article outright misrepresents faith alone in order to attack it aka strawman.
1. Faith alone does not mean “once you are “saved” you do not have to do anything to keep your salvation.”
2. Faith alone does not mean we can live “the exact same as the world and expect to stay saved.
Let’s take the link's first point and see how this goes:
> As appreciative as we are of Luther showing the church the way out of the corrupted Roman Catholic structure, we must acknowledge that he did make a few major mistakes. One of them was in teaching anti-Semitism (which would prepare his home country Germany for Hitler many centuries later).
People often copy/paste statements they never investigate to understand the historical context. Unfortunately that misrepresents history and spreads misinformation.
Catholicism
The anti-Semitism of the Catholic Church is well-documented (see The Catholic Church (Under the Roman Empire, the Early Middle Ages, Later Middle Ages, Renaissance and Counter-Reformation and in Modern Times, In the U.S)
When discussing historical topics its imperative to put them in their proper socio-cultural and historical contexts:
Christianity’s origins are in Judaism. The earliest Jesus followers (known as the Way) were Jews who were convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah.
The Way was considered another expression of Judaism.
This is why Saul (later Paul) asked the Jewish high priest for letters to the synagogues to find people belonging to the Way. Acts 9:1-2
90-100 AD – The apostles are dead and their disciples continue. At this point in history the separation between Judaism and Christianity is complete and for the most part Gentile Christianity is viewed as a separate religion.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church: a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
325 AD – Post-Nicaea Christianity was eager to complete the break with the synagogue.
The Holy Roman Empire wanted go on to declare everyone outside Rome to be heretics and decreed imperial policies to eliminate Judaism as a rival. Synagogues were frequently attacked and destroyed and many church fathers (see Eusebius/John Chrysostom/Augustine) took every opportunity to stress God’s rejection of the Jewish people. They believed it was the will of God to keep a remnant of the Jews alive in a degraded state as living witnesses of the Christian truth.
The Church’s post-Nicaea views on Jews were ingrained in Christian theology for a very long time.
In the ensuing years Jews were forced to convert, forced into baptism or leave the country. Pope Leo VII (937) advised the archbishop of Mainz to expel the Jews from his diocese if they continued to refuse baptism.
Pope Innocent III (1215) imposed upon all Jews the obligation of wearing distinguishable garments, which developed into the Jewish badge.
From the 13th century, the Church’s primary aim became the total conversion of the Jews. A conscious effort was made to weaken Judaism and degrade it among its own adherents.
In reaction to the Reformation Cardinal Caraffa, the head of the Inquisition in Rome, had all copies of the Talmud within his reach burned as well as much other Hebrew literature.
When Cardinal Caraffa became Pope Paul IV he imposed the papal bull Cum nimis absurdum that began a systematic persecution.
Pius V (1569) expelled Jews expelled the Jews from the Papal States excepting Ancona, a business center, and Rome, where a strictly supervised ghetto had been established. Synagogues had to admit conversionist sermons.
Disclaimer: To be fair there were many efforts to treat Jews benevolently – but nonetheless – this is the socio-cultural and historical context of Christendom up to the Reformation.
Martin Luther
Luther was an Augustinian monk who devoted himself to the Augustinian order and was ordained a Catholic Priest. He then became doctor of theology with a bachelor’s degree in Biblical studies. In 1512 he was received into the senate of theological facility at the Catholic University of Wittenberg. Luther then succeeded to the chair of theology. In 1515 Luther was made provincial vicar of Saxony and Thuringia (visiting/overseeing 11 monasteries.)
Luther was steeped in Catholicism and existed in an era and culture that likewise were steeped in medieval Catholicism. His view on Jews, and frankly the views of much of Christendom of the era, was in a large part due to their Catholicism.
1. Martin Luther was sympathetic to Jewish resistance to the Catholic Church. In fact Luther consulted Jewish scholars when translating the Old Testament into German.
2. After the Reformation, Luther expected the Jews to convert in mass. They did not.
3. Luther, a typical German, was often blunt, polemic and argumentative. Not being one to back down from a debate, Luther took to his writing and turned violently against them reiterating the sentiments of the Roman Catholic Church.
4. Even so, in Luther’s last sermon before his death he said, “We want to treat them (Jews) with Christian love and to pray for them, so that they might become converted and would receive the Lord.”
5. Lutherans do not consider Martin Luther a capital “S” saint by any means. The Lutheran Church (LCMS) adopted an official resolution addressing statements of Luther and making clear its own position on anti-Semitism.
Myths About Lutheranism: “Luther Was Anti-Semitic”
Martin Luther and Anti-Semitism
6. The Third Reich was the official Nazi designation for the regime in Germany from January 1933 to May 1945.
7. Hitler imagined Germany as the presumed successor of the medieval and early modern Holy Roman Empire: 800 to 1806 (the First Reich), the German Empire of 1871 to 1918 (the Second Reich).
Disclaimer: I’m not claiming Hitler was Catholic. I am not equating Catholics with Nazis and I am not saying all Catholic Popes were evil and anti-Semitic. I am saying that when discussing historical topics its imperative to put them in their proper socio-cultural and historical contexts. You cannot speak to historical matters – and totally ignore historical contexts. That makes no sense.
The other points in the article are likewise strawmannirg but lets resolve this point first. Thanks.
Jesus, Joseph and Mary were Jews; the apostles, disciples and early Jesus followers were Jews. Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, these early Jesus followers were known as the Way
These, convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, continued to function much like a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism. The early Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Sabbath, the Way met in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day (aka Sunday).
The early Jesus followers would look and operate nothing like Catholicism; in fact it would be much closer to what we’d call Messianic Judaism. Due to the success of the Great Commission, Paul’s conversion and successful missions, we find an influx of Gentiles. Due to the influx the Jewish Jerusalem believers felt the Gentiles should convert to Judaism. The Jerusalem Council of 50AD was called to settle the matter. James presides and makes a judgment that they would not force Gentiles to convert.
62 AD – High Priest Ananus charges James (brother of Jesus) of transgressing the Law; James executed in Jerusalem.
64 AD – Great Fire of Rome.
64AD – Peter martyred?
68AD – Paul martyred?
66-73AD – The Great Revolt (Judea/Galilee revolt against Rome.) The Roman Empire Jerusalem systematically raided/ransacked/obliterated Jerusalem and slaughters thousands, ransacks the Temple artifacts and destroys the Temple. James, Peter and Paul are dead, the Temple is destroyed and Jerusalem falls.
The first split in Christianity is finalized; Gentile Christianity now gains strength in outlying areas of Alexandria, Antioch and Rome.
> Followers of Jesus movement
Followers of Jesus movement, based on Jesus saying, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, were known as the Way
There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
The early Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Sabbath, the Way met in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day (aka Sunday).
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
Based on Jesus saying, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, the early Jesus followers were Jews known as the Way
There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
The early Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Sabbath, the Way met in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day (aka Sunday).
This is why Saul (later Paul) asked the Jewish high priest for letters to the synagogues to find people belonging to the Way. Acts 9:1-2
After Stephen was stoned, a zealous Saul (later Paul) wanted to persecute followers of the Way. So much so that He asked the Jewish high priest for letters to the synagogues so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. Acts 9:1-2
50AD Jerusalem Council
Due to the success of the Great Commission and Paul’s missions to the Gentiles, the sect experiences a great influx of Gentile Jesus followers.
Jerusalem believers, believers from the party of the Pharisees, felt the Gentiles should follow Jewish ancestral markers especially circumcision. Acts 15:5
James presided over Che home church in Jerusalem and made the final judgment on the matter of the Gentiles, “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. James holds Gentile proselytes to the Noahide Laws.
62 AD – High Priest Ananus charges James of transgressing the Law; James executed in Jerusalem.
66-73AD – The Great Revolt, Jewish revolts against Rome. The Roman Empire retaliates with a vengeance and begins a systematic campaign to obliterate Jewish Jerusalem. Rome barricades Jerusalem, famine ensues and Jerusalem falls. Titus orders Jerusalem razed, slaughters thousands, ransacks the Temple artifacts and destroys the Temple. The Jews scatter (diaspora), the Levitical priesthood ceases, the Sadducees (Temple sect) vanish and sacrifices come to an immediate halt.
73 AD – Qumran falls and the Zealots are crushed at Masada ending the revolt.
At this point Pharisaic Judaism goes into exile and evolves into Rabbinic Judaism. Christianity shifts to predominately Gentile areas including Antioch, Alexandria and Rome each having it’s own bishop/presbyters/elders.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
> Look things up for yourself. DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH BEFORE YOU COMMIT TO ANYTHING.
I did. I’ll engage the first few points to see how this goes:
> We westerns got the Bible thanks from the Catholic Church.
1. We got our Old Testament thanks to Judaism. Ancient Hebrew scribes recognized two classes of books: authoritative and “outside” books.
2. We got much of the New Testament thanks to the early Church. The early Post-Pentecost Jesus followers were known as the Way and these functioned under Judaism as another expression of Judaism. (Jesus/apostles quote authoritative scripture ad nauseam; the phrase “It is written …” occurs over 70 times in the New Testament.)
The early Church recognized the Gospels early on; Paul’s letters were considered authoritative and were circulated/copied very early within the apostles lifetime.
66-73AD – The Great Revolt: Jewish revolts against Rome. The Roman Empire retaliates with a vengeance and begins a systematic campaign to obliterate Jewish Jerusalem. Rome barricades Jerusalem, famine ensues and Jerusalem falls. Titus orders Jerusalem razed, slaughters thousands, ransacks the Temple artifacts and destroys the Temple. The Jews scatter (diaspora), the Levitical priesthood ceases, the Sadducees (Temple sect) vanish and sacrifices come to an immediate halt.
73 AD – Qumran falls and the Zealots are crushed at Masada ending the revolt.
At this point Pharisaic Judaism goes into exile and evolves into Rabbinic Judaism. Christianity shifts to predominately Gentile ares of: Antioch, Alexandria and Rome each having its own bishop/presbyters/elders.
At the turn of the first century there is no single bishop in primacy or authority over all of Christendom; there is no evidence for monarchical bishops in Rome.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
> What is the one thing you admire most about the Catholic Church?
Art/Architecture.
> Why do you admire it?
It’s beautiful.
> What is the single teaching you disagree with the most?
Jesus founded the Catholic Church.
> Why do you disagree with it?
The Holy Spirit founded the new covenant Church at Pentecost. Acts 2 After Pentecost the church can then fulfill its office and perform her duties.
1. Jesus is quoted as saying he was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”.
2. As such Jesus is the the mediator of a new covenant in his blood
3. We know the early Jesus followers were known as the Way
4. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
5. The early Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Sabbath, the Way met in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day (aka Sunday).
6. This is why Saul (later Paul) asked the Jewish high priest for letters to the synagogues to find people belonging to the Way. Acts 9:1-2
7. In fact a year after Saul’s conversion where the disciples even called Christians.
8. This is why Paul wrote the gospel is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek (Gentile).
God established a new covenant within the covenant system He had previously established within Israel/Judaism. Convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, the Way continued to function as a reform sect within Judaism. The early Jesus followers were in fact another expression of Judaism. James assumed leadership of the home Church in Jerusalem and James, Peter, John and others worked as a group of presbyters acting somewhat like the Judean presbyter elders of the Jewish synagogues.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church: a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
> This is a result of the sola scriptoria heresy.
Historically inaccurate.
1. Jesus and his disciples appealed to scripture ad nauseam as the final court of appeal. The phrase “It is written …” occurs over 70 times in the New Testament.
2. Jesus rebuked the Pharisees, “You have nullified the word of God, for the sake of your tradition”
3. Jesus rebuked the Sadducees because they didn’t understand the scriptures; he silenced them quoting scripture, “Have you not read what was spoken to you by God?” (Matthew 22:29)
4. Jesus rebuked the Devil by quoting scripture
5. At Pentecost Peter explained the outpouring of the Holy Spirit by quoting the prophet Joel and David (Psalm 16, Psalm 110). Peter refers to Paul’s letters as scripture writing, “There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.”
6. Paul: “For neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything. What counts is a new creation. Peace and mercy to all who walk by this kanoni, even to the Israel of God.” (Galatians 6:16) “All of us who are mature should embrace this point of view. And if you think differently about some issue, God will reveal this to you as well. Nevertheless, we must live up to (literally “walk the” kanoni) what we have already attained” Philippians 3:16
7. Timothy: writes that a good servant of Christ Jesus is trained in the words of the faith and of the good doctrine. He ends his letter instructing them to “devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation, to teaching.” 1 Timothy 4
Question: Were Jesus and the apostles heretical to support teachings with scripture?
> There was one church for almost all of history the holy apostolic Catholic Orthodox Church (Easter orthodox for short) the doctrine of this church remains the same since the time of the apostles, it has never reformed and never changed
Historically inaccurate. The Church has split/schismed/reformed/changed from almost day one:
First Jesus Followers
Jesus, Joseph and Mary were Jews; the apostles, disciples and early Jesus followers were Jews.
The early Jesus followers were known as the Way and these continued to function under the umbrella of Judaism; they were another expression of Judaism.
66-73AD – The Great Revolt (Judea/Galilee revolt against Rome.) Rome systematically raided and obliterated Jerusalem, slaughters thousands, ransacks the Temple artifacts and destroys the Temple.
The split between Judaism and Christianity is finalized; Gentile Christianity now gains strength in outlying areas of Alexandria, Antioch and Rome.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning
History Of The Christian Church.
100 – 800AD Patristic Era
Christian theologians produce volumes upon volumes of theological/apologetic writings to determine/correct interpretations and to refute arguments against opposing factions. The earliest controversies were Christological in nature and related to Jesus’ divinity/humanity. We see: Docetism, Arianism, Gnostics and Marcionites and more.
313AD Edict of Milan – agrees to teat Christians benevolently.
380AD edict decrees Nicene Christianity the state religion of the Roman Empire; ensuing factions vy for power resulting in splits and schism.
445AD Juvenal, the bishop of Jerusalem, wanted to make Jerusalem into a Patriarchate (designating the office and jurisdiction of an ecclesiastical patriarch) but Leo I bishop of Rome opposed it. Leo 1 appealed to Roman Emperor Valentinian III for support and obtained a decree Decree on Papal Power 445 that recognized the primacy of the bishop of Rome and provided for the forcible extradition of any bishop who refused to answer a summons to Rome.
At this time the Roman Empire was under constant siege and Roman Emperor Valentinian III (425 to 455) was faced with the dismemberment of the Western Empire. The 445 edict strengthened Rome’s socio-economical and political standing against a regular onslaught of opposition and here we find the primacy of Rome given official recognition. EWTN, Leo the Great Pope Doctor of the Church. Leo I is the first to officially claim universal jurisdiction over the worldwide Church thus initiating the rise of the papacy – a uniquely Roman structure based on imperialism and aristocracy.
Enter: Nestorianism and the Assyrian Church of the East split over the Council of Ephesus (431AD), Oriental Orthodoxy split over the Council of Chalcedon (451AD), Pope Sergius I rejected the Quinisext Council (692), and the Fourth Council of Constantinople (869-870AD and 879-880AD) is disputed by Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy.
600 AD Communication between the Greek East and the Latin West by the 600s had become dangerous and practically ceased. 800 AD Phtian Schism due to controversy between Eastern (Byzantine, later Orthodox) and Western (Latin, Roman Catholic) Christianity.
800AD After the fall or the Western Roman Empire Pope Leo III crowned Charlemagne Emperor reviving the title of Emperor. The concept of translatio imperii (sovereign ruler/supreme power) is revived from the ancient emperors of Rome. (This inaugurates the beginning of the Holy Roman Empire. Emperors in Western and Central Europe were now crowned by a Pope; the term "Holy Roman Empire" would be officially adopted from 1254 onward.)
1054AD Great Schism
The cracks and fissures in Christianity evident as early as the fourth century led to the Great Schism. We see the Gregorian Reform movement in the 11th century and the Eastern churches viewed Rome’s understanding of the nature of episcopal power as being in direct opposition to the Church’s essentially conciliar structure and thus saw the two ecclesiologies as mutually antithetical.
This fundamental difference in ecclesiology would cause all attempts to heal the schism and bridge the divisions to fail. Characteristically, Rome insisted on basing her monarchical claims to “true and proper jurisdiction” (as the Vatican Council of 1870 put it) on Saint Peter. This “Roman” exegesis of Matthew 16:18, however, was unknown to the patriarchs of Eastern Orthodoxy. Eastern Orthodox/Western Catholic separate and the division was a toxic mix theological/political/cultural.
Enter: Ireland, Anglo-Saxons (English), Netherlands, Germany, Scandinavia, Serbs and Blugarians = turmoil with Roman Empiricism.
Enter the Inquisitions starting 1184 with Roman Catholicism vs many movements throughout Europe considered apostate/heretical to Catholicism.
1378 – 1416 The Western Schism finds multiple claimants to the See of Rome and conflict concerning the rightful holder of the papacy. In 1309 the papacy moves to France but returns to Rome in 1378 causing strife between Italian and French factions resulting in multiple Popes with two sets of cardinals. A 1409 council declared both existing popes to be schismatic and appointed a new one. But the existing popes refused to resign and now there were three papal claimants. Another council in 1414 cleans house and cleared the field of popes and antipopes and elected a Pope.
1517 Reformation
1517AD – Pope Leo X grants an indulgence as collateral for a loan. Half the funds were to pay off a bishop’s personal loan and the other half was for Leo to pay for the re-design of St. Peters Basilica. (See The Role of Indulgences in the Building of New Saint Peter’s Basilica)
> What’s the difference between Protestant, orthodox, and catholic?
Christianity 101
1. Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, the early Jesus followers were known as the Way
2. These Jewish Jesus followers were convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah and continued to function much like a reform sect within Judaism.
3. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
4. Due to Jesus commissioning his disciples to share the Gospel with “the World”, and Paul’s successful outreach to the Gentiles, they experienced a great influx of Gentiles (non-Jews.)
5. The Jewish Jerusalem believers felt the Gentiles should in a sense first convert to Judaism. The Jerusalem Council of 50AD was called to settle the matter.
6. James presides and makes a judgment that they would not force Gentiles to convert to Judaism.
7. The Great Revolt: Judea/Galilee revolt against Rome. Rome consequently raided/ransacked/obliterated Jerusalem, slaughters thousands, ransacks the Temple artifacts and destroys the Temple.
At this point in history James, Peter and Paul are dead, the Temple is destroyed and Jerusalem falls.
This is the first split in Christianity; Gentile Christianity now gains strength in outlying areas of Alexandria, Antioch and Rome.
History Of The Christian Church.
More splits
8. The earliest controversies were related to Jesus’ divinity/humanity. We see: Docetism, Arianism, Gnostics and Marcionites and more.
380AD – Roman edict decrees Nicene Christianity the state religion of the Roman Empire; ensuing factions wrestle for power resulting in more splits and schisms.
445AD – Juvenal, the bishop of Jerusalem, wanted to make Jerusalem into a Patriarchate (designating the office and jurisdiction of an ecclesiastical patriarch) but Leo I bishop of Rome opposed it. Leo 1 appealed to Roman Emperor Valentinian III for support and obtained a decree Decree on Papal Power 445 that recognized the primacy of the bishop of Rome and provided for the forcible extradition of any bishop who refused to answer a summons to Rome.
At this time the Roman Empire was under constant siege and Roman Emperor Valentinian III (425 to 455) was faced with the dismemberment of the Western Empire. The 445 edict strengthened Rome’s socio-economical and political standing against a regular onslaught of opposition and here we find the primacy of Rome given official recognition. EWTN, Leo the Great Pope Doctor of the Church. Leo I is the first to officially claim universal jurisdiction over the worldwide Church thus initiating the rise of the papacy – a uniquely Roman structure based on imperialism and aristocracy.
9. Enter: Nestorianism and the Assyrian Church of the East split over the Council of Ephesus (431AD), Oriental Orthodoxy split over the Council of Chalcedon (451AD), Pope Sergius I rejected the Quinisext Council (692), and the Fourth Council of Constantinople (869-870AD and 879-880AD) is disputed by Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy.
600 AD – Communication between the Greek East and the Latin West by the 600s had become dangerous.
800 AD – Phtian Schism due to controversy between Eastern (Byzantine, later Orthodox) and Western (Latin, Roman Catholic) Christianity.
800AD – After the fall or the Western Roman Empire Pope Leo III crowned Charlemagne Emperor reviving the title of Emperor. The concept of translatio imperii (sovereign ruler/supreme power) is revived from the ancient emperors of Rome. (This inaugurates the beginning of the Holy Roman Empire. Emperors in Western and Central Europe were now crowned by a Pope; the term "Holy Roman Empire" would be officially adopted from 1254 onward.)
1054AD Great Schism
The differences in Christianity, evident as early as the fourth century, led to the Great Schism. We see the Gregorian Reform movement in the 11th century and the Eastern churches viewed Rome’s understanding of the nature of episcopal power as being in direct opposition to the Church’s essentially conciliar structure and thus saw the two ecclesiologies as mutually antithetical.
Rome insisted on basing her monarchical claims to “true and proper jurisdiction” based on Saint Peter. This “Roman” exegesis of Matthew 16:18, however, was unknown to the patriarchs of Eastern Orthodoxy. Eastern Orthodox/Western Catholic separate and the division was a toxic mix theological/political/cultural.
Enter: Ireland, Anglo-Saxons (English), Netherlands, Germany, Scandinavia, Serbs and Bulgarians = turmoil with Roman Empiricism.
Inquisitions
Starting 1184 with Roman Catholicism vs many movements throughout Europe considered apostate/heretical to Catholicism.
1378 – 1416 The Western Schism finds multiple claimants to the See of Rome and conflict concerning the rightful holder of the papacy.
In 1309 the papacy moves to France but returns to Rome in 1378 causing strife between Italian and French factions resulting in multiple Popes with two sets of cardinals.
A 1409 council declared both existing popes to be schismatic and appointed a new one. But the existing popes refused to resign and now there were three papal claimants.
Another council in 1414 cleans house and cleared the field of popes and antipopes and elected a Pope.
Reformation
1514 – the Archbishop of Mainz became vacant. Rome required “installation” and “dispensation” fees for multiple sees. Wanting to be a candidate bishop Albrecht borrowed a large sum of money from the Fugger Banking family.
As collateral for the loan, a plenary indulgence was to be issued in Albrecht’s dioceses in Germany.
1517AD – Pope Leo X grants the indulgence as collateral.
Half the funds were designated to pay off Albrecht’s personal loan and the other half was for Pope Leo to pay for the re-design of St. Peters Basilica. (See The Role of Indulgences in the Building of New Saint Peter’s Basilica)
Martin Luther, the chair of theology at the Catholic University of Wittenberg Germany, wanted to debate the indulgence with his theology students. He writes 95 points to debate and mails them with a letter to his superiors at the University and to his bishop.
Luther’s bishop was bishop Albrecht. (See Letter to the Archbishop of Mainz, 1517)
Albrecht had written the indulgence and instructions on how to sell them so he fowarded the letter to Rome.
1518 – Pope Leo X assigns papal theologians to oppose Luther.
1519 – Following the practice of naming a “heresy” after its leader, the name Lutheran originated as a derogatory term..
1521 – Luther and his followers were decreed an anathema, cut out and formally excommunicated. Decet Romanum Pontificem Papal Bull of Excommunication of Martin Luther and his followers Luther and followers are
1529 – ensuing protests led to Catholics using the negative term for followers of Luther = Protestant.
Christianity has split from it’s beginnings and continued to split from the Reformation. Today Protestant is a general broadsweeping term used for many diverse denominations of Christians who are not Catholic or Orthodox.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church: a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
James assumed leadership of the home Church in Jerusalem. From Paul we know Peter, James, John and others are collectively referred to as “esteemed leaders” and “pillars”.
62 AD – High Priest Ananus charges James of transgressing the Law; James executed in Jerusalem.
66-73AD – The Great Revolt, Jewish revolts against Rome. The Roman Empire retaliates with a vengeance and begins a systematic campaign to obliterate Jewish Jerusalem. Rome barricades Jerusalem, famine ensues and Jerusalem falls. Titus orders Jerusalem razed, slaughters thousands, ransacks the Temple artifacts and destroys the Temple. The Jews scatter (diaspora), the Levitical priesthood ceases, the Sadducees (Temple sect) vanish and sacrifices come to an immediate halt.
73 AD – Qumran falls and the Zealots are crushed at Masada ending the revolt.
At this point Pharisaic Judaism goes into exile and evolves into Rabbinic Judaism. Christianity shifts to predominately Gentile Antioch, Alexandria and Rome each having it’s own bishop/presbyters/elders.
Turn of the first century: Apostolic Fathers now looked to for guidance. At this point in history this is no single bishop in primacy or authority over all of Christendom.
96 AD – Clement I, bishop of Rome, writes letter to the Corinth church. His predecessors were Linus and Cletus about whom almost nothing is known. They are simply names on a list. Few details are known about Clement except his letter to the church at Corinth. Clement's name does not appear on the letter; it was sent as from the Church at Rome collectively. A later reference corroborates the author was Clement.
Clement appears to have written to the church in Corinth to reassert the authority of the local bishops/elders/presbyters as rulers of the church on the ground that the Apostles had appointed such. The First Epistle Of Clement To The Corinthians, Chp 44
To this point there is no evidence for monarchical bishops in Rome and no evidence in the letter that Rome had a bishop in the monarchical sense at the time.
132-136 AD – Bar Kokhba revolt, last Jewish-Roman war: Bar Kokhba defeated, emperor bars Jews from Jerusalem and again obliterates Jewish Jerusalem.
313 AD – Edict of Milan: Emperors Constantine and Licinius agree to treat Christians benevolently within the Roman Empire. The Edict was a decree/proclamation that established religious toleration over the Roman Empire. The decree was a political olive branch between east and west (Constantine & Licinius) to strengthen the general welfare of the Empire.
325 AD – Roman Emperor Constantine convenes Council of Nicaea to resolve difference in Christian beliefs; at this point in history no bishop had primacy and authority over all of Christendom and as such Constantine defers to the decisions of the bishops.
380 AD – Edict of Thessalonica: Nicene Christianity becomes the state religion of the Roman Empire.
422 AD – Juvenal, bishop of Jerusalem, wanted to make Jerusalem into a Patriarchate. Leo I, bishop of Rome, opposes it and appeals to Roman Emperor Valentinian III. Leo obtains a decree recognizing the primacy of the bishop of Rome and providing for the forcible extradition of any bishop who refused to answer a summons to Rome.
445 AD – Rome is under constant siege, an edict of 445 strengthened Rome’s socio-economical and political standing against a regular onslaught of opposition. Roman Emperor Valentinian III, faced with dismemberment of the Western Empire, issues a Roman Decree assigning the bishop of Rome supremacy over the provincial churches and founds the Roman Catholic Church and the Papacy.
This is the founding of the Roman Catholic Church w/papacy.
Yes.
God founded the new covenant within the covenant system He had previously established within Israel/Judaism.
Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, these early Jesus followers were known as the Way
Convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, who founded a new covenant with the covenant system, the early Jesus followers continued to function as a reform sect within Judaism.
The separation of Christianity from Judaism would be complete after Rome ransacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple (70 AD).
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church: a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
From that point on the Christian religion has continually split and schism.
> The Catholic Church was the original and only Church founded by Jesus Christ.
Jesus plainly said he was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”.
Based on Jesus saying, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, the early Jesus followers were known as the Way
There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
We know the early Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Sabbath.
We know the Way then met as a sect in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day (aka Sunday).
This is why Saul (later Paul) asked the Jewish high priest for letters to the synagogues to find people belonging to the Way. Acts 9:1-2
God established a new covenant within the covenant system He had previously established within Israel/Judaism.
Convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, the Way continued to function as a reform sect within Judaism. The early Jesus followers were in fact another expression of Judaism.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church: a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
Gross historical inaccuracies.
> Catholics are members of the church established by Jesus Christ.
Jesus plainly said he was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”.
Based on Jesus saying, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, the early Jesus followers were known as the Way
There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
We know the early Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Sabbath.
We know the Way then met as a sect in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day (aka Sunday).
This is why Saul (later Paul) asked the Jewish high priest for letters to the synagogues to find people belonging to the Way. Acts 9:1-2
God established a new covenant within the covenant system He had previously established within Israel/Judaism.
Convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, the Way continued to function as a reform sect within Judaism. The early Jesus followers were in fact another expression of Judaism.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church: a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
> Protestants are those that left that church
The abuse of indulgences started the Reformation. There was corruption in the Church, worldliness, attachment to money and power. The Catholic Church had the ability to reformed itself — or not. It could have allowed the systematic corruption – or address it.
The RCC chose to eliminate a factor (Luther) and created the split.
My friend in Christ. Like you I flirted with converting to Catholicism. So I dug deeply into scripture and Church history. I’ll also share that Lutherans consider Catholics to be brothers and sisters in Christ. I’m not attacking Catholicism but answering your sincere question. Peace.
From scripture and history we know Jesus, Joseph and Mary were Jews; the apostles, disciples and early Jesus followers were Jews. Jesus said he was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”. Jesus is the the mediator of a new covenant in his blood
We know based on Jesus saying, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, that the early Jesus followers were known as the Way
We know God established a new covenant within the covenant system He had previously established within Israel/Judaism.
Convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, the Way continued to function as a reform sect within Judaism.
We know there was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism. The early Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Sabbath, the Way met in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day (aka Sunday).
1. The early Jesus followers were in fact another expression of Judaism.
This is why Saul (later Paul) asked the Jewish high priest for letters to the synagogues to find people belonging to the Way. Acts 9:1-2
This is why it takes a year after Saul’s conversion for the disciples to be even called Christians.
This is why Paul wrote the gospel is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek (Gentile).
2. We know James, not Peter, assumed leadership of the Jerusalem Christian community. Eusebius records James the Just was elected bishop on account of his virtue and because Peter, James and John did not strive for honor. Church History Book II, chp 1.2 and 1.3
We know James, Peter, John and others worked as a group of presbyters acting somewhat like the Judean presbyter elders of the Jewish synagogues.
50AD – Jerusalem Council Acts 15
Due to the success of the Great Commission and Paul’s missions to the Gentiles, the sect experiences a great influx of Gentile Jesus followers.
Jerusalem believers, believers from the part of the Pharisees, felt the Gentiles should follow Jewish ancestral markers like circumcision. Acts 15:5
We see that James, not Peter, presides over the Jerusalem Council and that James makes the final decision on the matter of the Gentiles, Therefore my judgment is …
We see James’ judgment was deemed good by the apostles, the elders and the whole Church.
We know the body of believers during the Apostolic Era did not entertain the primacy and authority of one apostle; we know the apostles/elders/leaders functioned as a group of presbyters who apparently acted somewhat like the Judean presbyter elders of the Jewish synagogues.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church: a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
Peter
We know Peter describes himself as: A.) an apostle, B.) a fellow elder and a witness and C.) as a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ.
We know Paul records that Peter’s apostolic ministry was to the circumcised. We know Peter exhorts to not domineer over those in your charge but instead be to subject to the elders (not to him) and asserts that Jesus Christ is the chief Shepherd. (1 Peter 5:1-7).
We know from Paul that Peter, James, John and others are collectively referred to as “esteemed leaders” and “pillars”.
We even know that Clement, bishop of Rome 88-99AD, wrote to Corinth to reassert the authority of the local bishops/elders/presbyters as rulers of the church on the ground that the Apostles had appointed such. The First Epistle Of Clement To The Corinthians, Chp 44
The Rock
We know throughout the Bible that God is referred to as the rock:
Samuel, “The Lord is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer …” 2 Samuel 22:2.
Psalms: “He only is my rock and my salvation, my fortress; I shall not be shaken”, ““Blessed be the Lord, my rock …”, “The Lord lives, and blessed be my rock, and exalted be the God of my salvation” Psalm 18:46, Psalm 62:6 and Psalm 144:1.
Isaiah: “Trust in the Lord forever, for the Lord God is an everlasting rock.” Isaiah 26:4
Exodus: "Behold, I will stand before you there on the rock at Horeb, and you shall strike the rock, and water shall come out of it, and the people will drink.” Exodus 17:6 “And the Lord said, “Behold, there is a place by me where you shall stand on the rock, and while my glory passes by I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and I will cover you with my hand until I have passed by.” Exodus 33:21-23
Paul: “For I want you to know, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ.
Daniel: “… a stone was cut out, but not by human hands”, “… the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth” and “in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever …” Daniel 2
Matthew 16
Jesus is teaching his Jewish disciples who he is; not who Peter is. The disciples would recognize that Jesus uses “Son of Man” language from Daniel and rock references from the Prophets.
Jesus: “Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Jesus taught Peter (Petros is a pebble, a small rock – and acknowledges Peter’s confession that Jesus is the rock petra (the huge/mass rock foretold by the prophets.)
After the teaching of Matthew 16, Peter was never confused about who the rock was.
Peter describes Jesus as the living stone “being built up as a spiritual house”.. Peter, quoting Isaiah 28:16, describes Jesus as the precious cornerstone; Peter quotes Psalm 118:22 describing Jesus as the stone the builders rejected becoming the cornerstone and Peter quotes Isaiah 8:14 describing Jesus Christ as the stone that causes people to stumble, a rock that makes them fall. 1 Peter 2:4-8
I’ll stop here and allow you to comment or ask questions.
> For the first thousand years, there was essentially one Christian church
Historically inaccurate.
Christianity 101
Jesus, Joseph and Mary were Jews; the apostles, disciples and early Jesus followers were Jews. Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, these early Jesus followers were known as the Way
These, convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, continued to function much like a reform sect within Judaism.
There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism. The early Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Sabbath, the Way met in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day (aka Sunday).
The early Jesus followers were another expression of Judaism.
1. This is why Saul (later Paul) asked the Jewish high priest for letters to the synagogues to find people belonging to the Way. Acts 9:1-2
2. This is why the the Jerusalem believers, believers from the part of the Pharisees, felt the Gentiles should follow Jewish ancestral markers like circumcision. Acts 15:5
50AD – The Jerusalem Council of 50AD was called to settle the matter of circumcision. James presides and makes a judgment that they would not force Gentiles to convert.
This is the beginning of the first split: between Judaism and Christianity.
66-73AD – The Great Revolt (Judea/Galilee revolt against Rome.) The Roman Empire Jerusalem systematically raided/ransacked/obliterated Jerusalem and slaughters thousands, ransacks the Temple artifacts and destroys the Temple. James, Peter and Paul are dead, the Temple is destroyed and Jerusalem falls.
The first split in Christianity is finalized; Gentile Christianity now gains strength in outlying areas of Alexandria, Antioch and Rome.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning
History Of The Christian Church.
&nbsp;
100 – 800AD Patristic Era
Christian theologians produce volumes upon volumes of theological/apologetic writings to determine/correct interpretations and to refute arguments against opposing factions.
The earliest controversies were Christological in nature and related to Jesus’ divinity/humanity. We see: Docetism, Arianism, Gnostics and Marcionites etc., etc., etc. …
313AD Edict of Milan – agrees to teat Christians benevolently.
380AD edict decrees Nicene Christianity the state religion of the Roman Empire.
Ensuing factions now vy for power resulting in more splits and schism.
&nbsp;
445AD Juvenal, the bishop of Jerusalem, wanted to make Jerusalem into a Patriarchate (designating the office and jurisdiction of an ecclesiastical patriarch) but Leo I bishop of Rome opposed it. Leo 1 appealed to Roman Emperor Valentinian III for support and obtained a decree Decree on Papal Power 445 that recognized the primacy of the bishop of Rome and provided for the forcible extradition of any bishop who refused to answer a summons to Rome.
At this time the Roman Empire was under constant siege and Roman Emperor Valentinian III (425 to 455) was faced with the dismemberment of the Western Empire. The 445 edict strengthened Rome’s socio-economical and political standing against a regular onslaught of opposition and here we find the primacy of Rome given official recognition. EWTN, Leo the Great Pope Doctor of the Church. Leo I is the first to officially claim universal jurisdiction over the worldwide Church thus initiating the rise of the papacy – a uniquely Roman structure based on imperialism and aristocracy.
&nbsp;
This guarantees even more splits, more schisms, and more fighting.
Enter: Nestorianism and the Assyrian Church of the East split over the Council of Ephesus (431AD), Oriental Orthodoxy split over the Council of Chalcedon (451AD), Pope Sergius I rejected the Quinisext Council (692), and the Fourth Council of Constantinople (869-870AD and 879-880AD) is disputed by Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy.
600 AD Communication between the Greek East and the Latin West had become dangerous.
800 AD Phtian Schism due to controversy between Eastern (Byzantine, later Orthodox) and Western (Latin, Roman Catholic) Christianity.
800AD After the fall or the Western Roman Empire Pope Leo III crowned Charlemagne Emperor reviving the title of Emperor. The concept of translatio imperii (sovereign ruler/supreme power) is revived from the ancient emperors of Rome. (This inaugurates the beginning of the Holy Roman Empire. Emperors in Western and Central Europe were now crowned by a Pope; the term "Holy Roman Empire" would be officially adopted from 1254 onward.)
&nbsp;
At the turn of this century then we see the Great Schism, the Inquisitions, the Western Schism, multiple Popes and then the Reformation.
Christianity 101
Jesus, Joseph and Mary were Jews; the apostles, disciples and early Jesus followers were Jews. Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, these early Jesus followers were known as the Way
These, convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, continued to function much like a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism. The early Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Sabbath, the Way met in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day (aka Sunday).
The early Jesus followers were another expression of Judaism. This is why the the Jewish Jerusalem believers felt the Gentiles should follow Jewish ancestral markers like circumcision.
50AD – The Jerusalem Council of 50AD was called to settle the matter of circumcision. James presides and makes a judgment that they would not force Gentiles to convert.
This is the beginning of the split between Judaism and Christianity.
66-73AD – The Great Revolt (Judea/Galilee revolt against Rome.) The Roman Empire Jerusalem systematically raided/ransacked/obliterated Jerusalem and slaughters thousands, ransacks the Temple artifacts and destroys the Temple. James, Peter and Paul are dead, the Temple is destroyed and Jerusalem falls.
The first split in Christianity is finalized; Gentile Christianity now gains strength in outlying areas of Alexandria, Antioch and Rome.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning
History Of The Christian Church.
100 – 800AD Patristic Era
Christian theologians produce volumes upon volumes of theological/apologetic writings to determine/correct interpretations and to refute arguments against opposing factions.
The earliest controversies were Christological in nature and related to Jesus’ divinity/humanity. We see: Docetism, Arianism, Gnostics and Marcionites etc., etc., etc. …
313AD Edict of Milan – agrees to teat Christians benevolently.
380AD edict decrees Nicene Christianity the state religion of the Roman Empire.
Ensuing factions now vy for power resulting in more splits and schism.
445AD Juvenal, the bishop of Jerusalem, wanted to make Jerusalem into a Patriarchate (designating the office and jurisdiction of an ecclesiastical patriarch) but Leo I bishop of Rome opposed it. Leo 1 appealed to Roman Emperor Valentinian III for support and obtained a decree Decree on Papal Power 445 that recognized the primacy of the bishop of Rome and provided for the forcible extradition of any bishop who refused to answer a summons to Rome.
At this time the Roman Empire was under constant siege and Roman Emperor Valentinian III (425 to 455) was faced with the dismemberment of the Western Empire. The 445 edict strengthened Rome’s socio-economical and political standing against a regular onslaught of opposition and here we find the primacy of Rome given official recognition. EWTN, Leo the Great Pope Doctor of the Church. Leo I is the first to officially claim universal jurisdiction over the worldwide Church thus initiating the rise of the papacy – a uniquely Roman structure based on imperialism and aristocracy.
This guarantees even more splits, more schisms, and more fighting.
Enter: Nestorianism and the Assyrian Church of the East split over the Council of Ephesus (431AD), Oriental Orthodoxy split over the Council of Chalcedon (451AD), Pope Sergius I rejected the Quinisext Council (692), and the Fourth Council of Constantinople (869-870AD and 879-880AD) is disputed by Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy.
600 AD Communication between the Greek East and the Latin West had become dangerous.
800 AD Phtian Schism due to controversy between Eastern (Byzantine, later Orthodox) and Western (Latin, Roman Catholic) Christianity.
800AD After the fall or the Western Roman Empire Pope Leo III crowned Charlemagne Emperor reviving the title of Emperor. The concept of translatio imperii (sovereign ruler/supreme power) is revived from the ancient emperors of Rome. (This inaugurates the beginning of the Holy Roman Empire. Emperors in Western and Central Europe were now crowned by a Pope; the term "Holy Roman Empire" would be officially adopted from 1254 onward.)
At the turn of this century we see the Great Schism, the Inquisitions, the Western Schism, multiple Popes and then the Reformation.
> But I do find myself wondering, why have so many denominations?
Short answer: Genesis 11 recounts the Tower of Babel where God confused language, “Come, let us go down and there confuse their language, so that they may not understand one another's speech.”
Remember the nation of Israel was divided into tribes. Throughout their history Israel struggled with conflict among the tribes.
> And if we trace that back through history to I guess the new testament as thats When Jesus came and set up the church
Based on the Bible Jesus didn’t “set up the church”. In fact Jesus made it very clear that he was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”.
What Jesus did was share an intent that his disciples build, and left them so the body of Christ may be built up.
He told them to wait for the Holy Spirit. This was realized at Pentecost Acts 2.
> … what denomination are we looking at?
Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, the early Jewish Jesus followers were known as the Way
There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
The early Jewish Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Jewish Sabbath, the Way met as a sect in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day.
50AD – This is why in Acts 15 we see men from Judea, Jewish Jesus followers who belonged to the part of the Pharisees, were teaching that Gentile proselytes must follow Jewish ancestral markers specifically circumcision. At the end of the Council, James quotes what is written in the prophets and makes the judgment to hold Gentiles to the Noahide law.
This is the beginning of the split between Judaism and Christianity.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church: a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
52-57AD – In 1 Corinthians we see Paul admonishing the Corinthians for quarreling and boasting in following different leaders. Paul reiterates the wisdom of the Spirit and not to boast in men, “For all things are yours, whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future.”
Paul goes on, “that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another.”
63-73AD – Jewish revolts against Rome; the Roman Empire retaliates with a vengeance and begins a systematic campaign to obliterate Jewish Jerusalem. Rome barricades Jerusalem, famine ensues and Jerusalem falls. Jerusalem is razed, thousands slaughtered, the Temple artifacts are ransacked and the Temple is destroyed. Qumran falls and the Zealots are crushed at Masada
The Jews scatter, the Levitical priesthood ceases, the Sadducees (Temple sect) vanish and sacrifices come to an immediate halt. Judaism evolves into Rabbinical Judaism and the Jesus movement shifts to predominately Gentile areas of Antioch, Alexandria and Rome.
The split between Judaism and Christianity is final. Judaism continues to be diverse and Gentile Christianity continues to split and schism (see my previous post Splits and schisms in Christianity
> If God’s word is unchanged shouldn’t there only be one denomination? One church?
From OT Abraham, through the NT and thereafter people have been divided – but there is one Church.
Church: Greek, ekklesia, people called out from the world and to God, the mystical body of Christ; the universal (total) body of believers whom God calls out from the world and into His eternal kingdom. The English word "church" comes from the Greek word kyriakos, "belonging to the Lord" (kyrios).
> If I am understanding this correctly you are claiming that the Bishop of Rome became the "official jurisdiction over the worldwide Church" with Leo I and before that all Bishops of Rome did not hold such authority?
I am presenting compelling evidence showing Leo I is the ”first to officially claim universal jurisdiction over the worldwide Church thus initiating the rise of the papacy – a uniquely Roman structure based on imperialism and aristocracy.”
> What was the hierarchy of the christian church before this?
Sure, so based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, the early Jesus followers were Jews known as the Way
Convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, who founded a new covenant with the covenant system, the early Jesus followers continued to function as a reform sect within Judaism.
There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
They continued to follow ancestral Jewish markers: go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Saturday Sabbath, the Way met with each other in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day.
James assumed leadership of the home church in Jerusalem Christian community, and the apostles/esteemed leaders functioned as a group of presbyters who apparently acted somewhat like the Judean presbyter elders of the Jewish synagogues.
The separation of Christianity from Judaism would be somewhat complete after Rome ransacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple (70 AD).
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church: a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
95-96 AD The church in Corinth was struggling with local bishops/elders/presbyters. A letter from Rome (not signed but later attributed to Clement) reasserts the authority of the local bishops/elders/presbyters as rulers of the church on the ground that the Apostles had appointed such. The First Epistle Of Clement To The Corinthians, Chp 44
> A bit of a conspiratorial question, but this idea of the sabbath being on Sunday was introduced by the pope of the catholic church.
Historically inaccurate.
> The Bible says the the sabbath is actually on Saturday, (The 7th day of the week.) The week starts on Sunday, and ends Saturday.
What you’re doing is viewing ancient concepts through a contemporary lense. Our modern notions have no place in ancient contexts.
Q: Is the Jewish sabbath on a Saturday?
No.
First, the Jewish calendar doesn't have names for the days of the week. They’re simply known as: first day, second day, third day, et al.
Using our contemporary name days, the Jewish sabbath begins at sunset on Friday evening and ends after dark on Saturday evening.
Jewish days are reckoned from sunset to sunset. Our Romanized calendar recons days from midnight to midnight.
Q: Is the Christian sabbath on a Saturday?
A: No. Christians are under the new covenant in Christ’s blood. Jesus Christ is our sabbath rest.
After Jesus the early Jesus followers were Jews who continued to follow Jewish ancestral markers. Convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, these early Jesus followers continued to function as a reform sect within Judaism.They were called “the Way” Acts 9:2; 19:9, 23; 22:4; 24:14, 22.
They continued to go to synagogue, followed Mosaic Law and Temple traditions. They observed the Jewish holy days, practiced circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws.
The early Jewish Jesus followers kept the Jewish Sabbath – and then met with each other as a sect on the first day of the week (our Sunday) which they called the Lord’s Day.
The separation of Christianity from Judaism started in 50 AD at the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15) and was pretty much finalized after Rome ransacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple (70 AD).
At this point Gentile Christianity moves to outlying Gentile areas and here we see Christianity worships on the Lord’s Day aka Sunday.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church: a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
Lutherans consider Catholics to be brothers and sisters in Christ. We actually agree on much.
To answer your question:
1. Jesus didn’t found Catholicism. He founded no organization and left no established institution outside his disciples.
Q: What did Jesus found?
A: Jesus is the founder of salvation and the founder our faith.
Jesus is quoted as saying that he was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”. As such Jesus is the the mediator of a new covenant in his blood.
God founded the new covenant within the covenant system that God had previously established within Israel/Judaism.
Q: What did Jesus leave?
A: Jesus left: apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers so that the body of Christ may be built up.
Jesus commissioned his disciples to “make disciples of all nations” (aka the Great Commission.)
Paul corroborates that the gospel is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek (Gentile).
Before returning to the Father, Jesus explicitly instructed his disciples to, “wait for the gift my Father promised” Acts 1:4.“Unless I go away, the Holy Spirit will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to You.” The Holy Spirit is the “Lord and giver of life.”
So they waited.
On Pentecost the Holy Spirit is poured out and at this point the apostles are now brought to life and empowered to build the church: preaching, teaching and administering the sacraments. For this reason Christianity believes and confesses: “… We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son ...” Nicene Creed
The Holy Spirit founded the church at Pentecost and the Holy Spirit is the vicar of Christ.
Scripture relates the Jesus followers weren’t even called Christians until a year after Paul’s conversion.
Q: What we’re they?
A: Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, these early Jesus followers were known as the Way
Convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah who founded a new covenant with the covenant system, the early Jesus followers continued to function as a reform sect within Judaism.
There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
The Way continued to follow ancestral Jewish markers: go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Saturday Sabbath, the Way met with each other in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day.
Hardly Catholicism, In fact the early Jesus followers would somewhat look much like what we’d today consider Messianic Judaism.
We know James (not Peter) assumed leadership of the Jerusalem Christian community, and the apostles/elders/“esteemed pillars” functioned as a group of presbyters who apparently acted somewhat like the Judean presbyter elders of the Jewish synagogues.
Due to the influx of Gentile proselytes this contentious relationship would change starting with the 50 AD Jerusalem Council of Acts 15
The separation of Christianity from Judaism would be complete after Rome ransacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple (70 AD).
All this is scriptural, historically supported and harmonizes the NT with the OT.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church: a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
Q: Is the Jewish sabbath on a Saturday?
No.
The Jewish calendar doesn't have names for the days of the week. They’re simply known as: first day, second day, third day, et al. Using our contemporary name days, the Jewish sabbath begins at sunset on Friday evening and ends after dark on Saturday evening.
Jewish days are reckoned from sunset to sunset.
Q: Why did God need to rest on the 7th day?
A: He didn’t. The Hebrew in the Genesis text relates God created, then ceased creating. If God stopped working (upholding, maintaining) then the cosmos doesn’t work.
Q: Is the Christian sabbath on a Saturday?
No. Christians are under the new covenant in Christ’s blood. Jesus Christ is our sabbath rest.
After Jesus the early Jesus followers were Jews who continued to follow Jewish ancestral markers. Convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, these early Jesus followers continued to function as a reform sect within Judaism.They were called “the Way” Acts 9:2; 19:9, 23; 22:4; 24:14, 22.
They continued to go to synagogue, followed Mosaic Law and Temple traditions. They observed the Jewish holy days, practiced circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws.
They kept the Jewish Sabbath – and then met with each other on the first day of the week (our Sunday) aka the Lord’s Day.
The separation of Christianity from Judaism basically started in 50 AD at the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15) and was pretty much finalized after Rome ransacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple (70 AD).
At this point Gentile Christianity moves to outlying Gentile areas and worships on the Lord’s Day aka Sunday.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church: a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
> If you deny Catholicism, do you deny Christianity?
No.
> When looking at church history, if you decide Apostolic Christianity got it wrong, can you still defend Christianity (as a Protestant), when everything Protestant stems from Apostolic Christianity?
The unsupported “load” presumed true is Apostolic Christianity = Catholicism.
When looking at church history (Acts, Paul’s letters + academic history) I find apostolic Christianity originates in and is steeped in Judaism.
The early Jesus followers were Jews and at first accounted a kind of Jew. These early Jesus followers were known as the Way
These were convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah who founded a new covenant within the existing covenant system. As such they continued to function as another expression of Judaism. They continued to follow ancestral Jewish markers and kept the Saturday Sabbath. The Way met as a sect on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day.
We know James, Peter, John and the other leaders worked as a group of presbyters (somewhat like the Judean presbyter elders of the Jewish synagogues.) We know Eusebius records James the Just (not Peter) was elected to preside over the home Church in Jerusalem on account of his virtue and because Peter, James and John did not strive for honor. Church History Book II, chp 1.2 and 1.3
We know James (not Peter) presides over the Jerusalem Council and James makes the judgment on the matter of the Gentiles, “Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God.
We know the body of believers during the Apostolic Era did not entertain the primacy and supremacy of one apostle.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning is a good entry level, readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church, a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
History Of The Christian Church: a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
The first three centuries of Christianity
From scripture/history we know Peter describes himself as A.) an apostle, B.) a fellow elder and a witness and C.) as a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ.
We know Paul records that Peter’s apostolic ministry was to the circumcised.
We know Peter, James, John and others are collectively referred to as “esteemed leaders” and “pillars”. Peter even exhorts to not domineer over those in your charge but instead be to subject to the elders (not to him) and asserts that Jesus Christ is the chief Shepherd. (1 Peter 5:1-7).
We know Jesus did not come to found a new religion adding more Priests, more rituals and more walls of separation. Jesus came to break down the wall of hostility to make us one in the Spirit.
Frankly my friend in Christ the last thing the apostles would have thought to do was set up their leadership structure to function like the magestierum of imperial Rome –– who had just murdered Jesus and was systematically martyring their friends and family.
> Well, being a Christian I do believe that Christ established a New Covenant with his death and resurrection so I will naturally favor the teachings of St. Paul and the example of the early Christians over prior Jewish culture.
And that’s highly problematic because frankly there’s no early Christians outside Jewish culture. The early Christians were Jews who were steeped in Jewish culture.
Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, the early Jesus followers were known as the Way Convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, who founded a new covenant within their covenant system, the early Jesus followers continued to function as a reform sect within Judaism.
There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
They continued to follow ancestral Jewish markers: go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. They kept the Jewish Saturday Sabbath and then met with each other on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church: a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
What you’re doing is erroneously applying contemporary notions — back into an ancient contexts. Our modern notions have no place in ancient contexts.
> According to Holy Tradition Mary's vow of celibacy was made while she was serving as a Temple virgin before she ever met Joseph. …
If you’re going to ignore my comments, and jump to “Holy Tradition” then I’ll no longer continue.
My points:
1. In Jewish culture being fruitful and multiplying was taken very seriously.
2. Making a vow of celibacy, and then agreeing to a marriage vow, makes absolutely no sense in any culture.
3. There’s no necessity in Messianic prophecy for the messiah's mother be immaculately conceived – or perpetually remain virgin.
4. Eve didn't remain virgin right? In fact the Eve/Mary “typology” is reinforced by Mary knowing her husband, marrying flesh and being fruitful and multiplying by conceiving and bearing more children.
5. Celibacy is not a Jewish value. In Jewish culture marriage is a duty. The Talmud stipulates that a husband’s abstention from sexual relations may be taken by the wife as ground for a divorce (Ketubot 6:7), and the Shulchan Aruch says that a single man who is past 20 can be compelled by a rabbinic court to marry.
The Jewish opposition to celibacy is founded first on the positive precept to "be fruitful and multiply" (Genesis 1:28.) Celibacy is incompatible with the Jewish scheme of creation. A person would be in a sense half a human being unless he or she is married.
> Sunday sabbaths were instituted by the Roman Catholic church in honour of sun worship ("sun" day).
Gross historical inaccuracy.
The first Jesus followers were called the Way. They were Jews who were convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East, and under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes and Zealots. Like these the Way was another expression of Judaism.
The Jesus followers continued to follow Jewish ancestral markers. They went to synagogue, followed Mosaic Law and Temple traditions. They observed the Jewish holy days, practiced circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. They continued to go to synagogue and followed Mosaic Law and Temple traditions. They observe Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Because they continued to keep the Saturday Sabbath – the Jesus followers met together on the next day (Sunday aka the Lord’s Day.)
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning
History Of The Christian Church
Due to the Great Commission, the early Christian communities attracted Gentile God-fearers (proselytes/Gentile sympathizers/Hellenistic Jews). The growing number of Gentiles began to be a issue for the Jewish Jerusalem Jesus followers. The Jewish Jesus followers in Jerusalem had difficulty relinquishing their old covenant national markers (circumcision et al) that set them apart from other nations.
This is the context of the Jerusalem Council of Acts 15.
49/50AD – Jerusalem Council: Jerusalem Jesus followers speak, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the Law of Moses.” Peter speaks, then Paul and Barnabus and James makes the final judgment on the matter: “we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God.”
Essentially James and the Council agree to only hold Gentiles to the Noahide Laws. James and the other’s understand that the Gentiles are not ancestral children of Abraham. Jews recognize that all people are sons of Noah so James holds the Gentile proselytes to the Noahide codes. The Noahide Laws are a link between Judaism and Christianity and serve as universal norms of ethical conduct.
This is the beginning of the split between Judaism and Chrsitianity.
66-73AD – The Great Revolt (Judea/Galilee revolt against Rome.)
The Roman Empire retaliates from the Jewish Revolts with a vengeance and begins a systematic campaign to obliterate Jewish Jerusalem. Rome barricades Jerusalem, famine ensues and Jerusalem falls. Titus orders Jerusalem razed, slaughters thousands, ransacks the Temple artifacts and destroys the Temple. The Jews scatter (diaspora), the Levitical priesthood ceases, the Sadducees (Temple sect) vanish and sacrifices come to an immediate halt. Qumran falls and the Zealots are crushed at Masada (73AD.)
After the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, Pharisaic Judaism goes into exile and evolves into Rabbinic Judaism; the Jesus movement shifts to predominately Gentile areas including Antioch, Alexandria and Rome
70-90AD – At this point in history the separation between Judaism and Christianity is complete.
156AD – The “memoirs of the apostles” were circulating, collected and read in the earliest Christian churches. Justin Martyr details the weekly worship of the Christians “And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read …” (Justin Martyr, 1 Apology, Chap. 67.)
> By keeping the sabbath on sunday you are actually deferring to the authority of the Roman Catholic church over the authority of God and worshipping the sun.
Another gross historical inaccuracy.
> What is the one true church that Christ established?
Church: Greek ekklesia, people called out from the world and to God, the total body of believers whom God calls out from the world and into His eternal kingdom.
The one true Church is the body of believers, though many, we are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. Romans 12:5, Ephesians 4:11-16, 1 Corinthians 12:13-27
Jesus didn’t establish nor found a Church. That’s not why the Son manifested in the flesh.
Christ: Greek Christos, Anointed One, Messiah, the Greek form of the Hebrew word rendered "Messiah" denoting that he was anointed or consecrated to his great redemptive work as Prophet, Priest, and King of his people. He is thus spoken of by Isaiah (61:1), and by Daniel (9:24-26), who styles him "Messiah the Prince.” Jesus Christ is "the seed of the woman" (Genesis 3:15), "the seed of Abraham" (Genesis 22:18), the "Prophet like unto Moses" (Deuteronomy 18:15), "the priest after the order of Melchizedek" (Psalm 110:4), "the rod out of the stem of Jesse" (Isaiah 11:1, 10), the "Immanuel," the virgin's son (Isaiah 7:14), "the branch of Jehovah" (Isaiah 4:2), and "the messenger of the covenant" (Malachi 3:1).
As such Jesus was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matthew 15:23-25). What Jesus founded/established was a new covenant within the previous covenant system aka Judaism.
> It seems like it would have to be catholic or orthodox based on history,
Not if you’re actually basing it on history.
We know Christianity’s history actually originates in and is steeped in Judaism. We know after Jesus death the early Jesus followers were considered a sect that operated within Judaism called “the Way” Acts 9:2; 19:9, 23; 22:4; 24:14, 22.
These continued to go to follow Jewish ancestral markers. They went to synagogue, followed Mosaic Law and Temple traditions. They observed the Jewish holy days, practiced circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. They kept the Jewish Sabbath (Saturday) and then met with each other on the Lord’s Day (Sunday.)
5. We know James, Peter, John and others worked as a group of presbyters acting somewhat like the Judean presbyter elders of the Jewish synagogues.
6. Eusebius records James (Jesus’ brother) was elected to preside over the home Church in Jerusalem (not Peter) on account of his virtue and because Peter, James (the other James) and John did not strive for honor. Church History Book II, chp 1.2 and 1.3
6. We know the body of believers during the Apostolic Era did not entertain the primacy of one apostle/presbyter/elder.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning is a good entry level, readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church, a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
tl;dr: Jesus is founded a new covenant in his blood; Jesus is the founder of our faith. The Church could not perform it’s duties until Christ returned to the Father and they sent the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit founded (quickened, breathed life into) the Church at Pentecost.
> In early days the Sabbath was considered to be on Saturday also referred to Sabbath day.
In the early days the early Jesus followers were known as the Way
Convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, who founded a new covenant with the existing covenant system, the early Jesus followers continued to function as a reform sect within Judaism.
There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
They continued to follow ancestral Jewish markers: go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practiced circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws.
Keeping the Jewish Saturday Sabbath, the Way then met with each other in each other’s homes on Sunday a day they called the Lord’s Day.
50AD — this contentious relationship would change starting with Jerusalem Council of Acts 15.
Due to the success of the Great Commission, Paul’s conversion and successful missions, we find an influx of Gentiles. The Jerusalem believers felt the Gentiles should convert to Judaism. The Jerusalem Council of 50AD was called to settle the matter.
James presides and makes a judgment on the matter. The council agrees and they did not force Gentiles to convert.
62 AD – High Priest Ananus charges James (brother of Jesus) of transgressing the Law; James is executed in Jerusalem.
64 AD – Great Fire of Rome.
64AD – Peter martyred?
68AD – Paul martyred?
66-73AD – The Great Revolt (Judea/Galilee revolt against Rome.) The Roman Empire Jerusalem systematically raided/ransacked/obliterated Jerusalem and slaughters thousands, ransacks the Temple artifacts and destroys the Temple and Jerusalem falls.
The first split in Christianity is finalized; Gentile Christianity now gains strength in outlying Gentile areas of Alexandria, Antioch and Rome.
The separation of Christianity from Judaism is for the most part complete after Rome ransacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple (70 AD).
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning
Justin Martyr (writing between 155-157AD): “And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.” (1 Apol. chp 67, Weekly Worship of the Christians.)
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning is a good entry level, readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church is a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church (I got the 1.99 Kindle version.) Don't be intimidated by 8 volumes. The author's writing style is detailed but digestable.
> That’s a lot of questions
Sorry, I keep a list with many more but paired them down. I apologize for the length.
> I can’t really answer the “why didn’t Jesus” questions because I’m not Jesus.
Every day, all day in this sub Christian users (probably you too) answer user questions about why Jesus did and didn’t do things.
It promotes healthy discussion but I understand.
> There was not an immediate and universal recognition that the earliest Christians were not Jewish.
Reads clunky because statements with double negatives are grammatically “weak.
We know the early Jesus followers were considered a sect within Judaism called the Way (Acts 9:2; 19:9, 23; 22:4; 24:14, 22).
There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
We know from scripture the Way continued to go to synagogue, followed Mosaic Law and Temple traditions. They observed the Jewish holy days, practiced circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. They kept the Jewish Saturday Sabbath and met with each other on the Lord’s Day aka Sunday.
The early Jesus followers were in fact accounted as a kind of Jew.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning is a good entry level, readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church, a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
> Even Paul, who himself, wrote against the necessity of following the Jewish law, continued to do so at least for a while into his Christian ministry (Acts 21:23-26).
Correct.
> The synagogues were the first places he went to preach when he arrived somewhere new, as well.
Correct.
> So these early Christians would be found in Jewish synagogues because many early Christians still considered following Jesus to be the proper Jewish thing to do.”
Correct.
> I am interested in Christianity, but I was not sure if I want to be christian.
That would have been a less hostile title for this post.
I’m not here to convert you but I’ll share this:
1. Jesus didn’t found a Christian church; outside his disciples he found no organization and left no established institution.
2. Jesus made it very clear that he was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”.
3. The New Testament books teach that Jesus is the the mediator of a new covenant in his blood.
4. God founded the new covenant within the covenant system that God had previously established within Israel/Judaism.
5. This harmonizes the NT with the OT and rightly Jesus teaches that is the founder of salvation and the founder our faith.
6. Jesus commissioned his disciples to “make disciples of all nations”. This is referred to as the Great Commission.)
7. God intent in choosing Abraham was to make a covenant (legal binding agreement) with him that included Abraham being the father many nations.
8. Jesus’ intent harmonizes with the OT God’s intent. So Jesus commissioned his apostles (aka “sent ones” ) to build an ekklesia (a people called out to assemble and congregate) from all nations to be the body of believers called out from the world and into His eternal kingdom.
9. Paul was a devout Jew who became a Jesus follower. He became the apostle to the Gentiles and he corroborates that the gospel is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek (Gentile). This harmonizes scripture.
10. The early Jesus followers were Jews known as the Way
11. These Jews were convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah who founded a new covenant with the Jewish covenant system. These early Jesus followers continued to function as a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism. They continued to follow ancestral Jewish markers: go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions.
12. The Way continued to observe the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Jewish Saturday Sabbath, the Way then met with each other on Sunday (what they called the Lord’s Day.)
13. The early Jesus followers would look and operate much like what we’d today consider Messianic Judaism. A very pious Jew named James (Jesus’ brother) assumed leadership of the Jerusalem Christian community, the apostles/leaders functioned as a group of presbyters who apparently acted somewhat like the Judean presbyter elders of the Jewish synagogues.
14. The Jesus followers weren’t called “Christians” until a year after Paul’s conversion.
15. Paul’s outreach to the Gentiles was very successful. Due to the influx of Gentile proselytes the relationship between Jews and the Way became contentious. Some Jews felt the Gentiles needed to be circumcised. So they met in 50 AD to resolve the matter (see Jerusalem Council.
16. James judged that Gentiles didn’t need to be circumcised. This was the beginning of the separation of Christianity from Judaism. The separation would be complete after Rome ransacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple (70 AD).
In the following decades James, Paul and other Jewish/Christian leaders were martyred. As a result of this, and because Jerusalem was ransacked and the Temple destroyed, Gentile Christianity moved to outlying Gentile areas and as a result Gentile Christianity became the norm.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church: a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
I’ll let you respond to this so far.
Jews rejected Jesus?
We know for a fact that many Jews didn’t reject Jesus. Mary was a Jew, the apostles were Jews and the earliest Jesus followers were in fact Jews.
Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, these early Jesus followers were known as the Way
Convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah the early Jesus followers continued to function as a reform sect within Judaism.
There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
The Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Saturday Sabbath, the Way met with each other in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day.
The early Jesus followers would look and operate something like what we’d today consider Messianic Judaism.
> not bring a new religion…
New religion?
Jesus didn’t found a new religion.
Jesus made it very clear that he was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”.
Jesus said was the the mediator of a new covenant in his blood.
God founded this new covenant within the previous covenant system that God had established within Israel aka Judaism.
Within this new covenant Jesus commissioned his disciples to “make disciples of all nations” (aka the Great Commission.)
That means Gentiles could now be grafted into God’s covenant. Paul corroborates that the gospel is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek (Gentile).
Due to the influx of Gentile proselytes this relationship would change starting with the 50 AD Jerusalem Council of Acts 15 The separation of Christianity from Judaism would be pretty much complete after Rome ransacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple (70 AD).
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church: a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
> It absolutely is.
Nope. We know in fact that after Jesus death the early Jesus followers were considered a sect within Judaism called “the Way” Acts 9:2; 19:9, 23; 22:4; 24:14, 22.
We know the Way continued to go to synagogue, followed Mosaic Law and Temple traditions. They observed the Jewish holy days, practiced circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. They kept the Jewish Saturday Sabbath and met with each other on the Lord’s Day aka Sunday.
Hardly Catholicism; much more like messianic Judaism.
We know James, Peter, John and others worked as a group of presbyters acting somewhat like the Judean presbyter elders of the Jewish synagogues.
We know Eusebius records James was elected bishop on account of his virtue and because Peter, James and John did not strive for honor. Church History Book II, chp 1.2 and 1.3
We know the body of believers during the Apostolic Era did not entertain the primacy of one apostle/presbyter/elder.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning is a good entry level, readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
> What was the first Christian sect?
The Way. Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, these early Jesus followers were known as the Way
Convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah who founded a new covenant with the covenant system, the early Jesus followers continued to function as a reform sect within Judaism.
There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism. They continued to follow ancestral Jewish markers: go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Saturday Sabbath, the Way met with each other in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day.
The early Jesus followers would look and operate much like what we’d today consider Messianic Judaism.
James assumed leadership of the Jerusalem Christian community, the apostles/leaders functioned as a group of presbyters who apparently acted somewhat like the Judean presbyter elders of the Jewish synagogues.
> How come Christianity for all its shared origin with Judaism and Islam as Abrahamic Religions that supposedly originated in the Middle East became centered in Europe.
Due to the influx of Gentile proselytes this contentious relationship would change starting with the 50 AD Jerusalem Council of Acts 15. The separation of Christianity from Judaism would be complete after Rome ransacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple (70 AD).
Gentile Christianity took a stronghold in outlying Gentile areas.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church: a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
> The Catholic Church claims to be the OG Christianity
That’s historically inaccurate. See above.
> but why was it based in Rome?
Because Rome ransacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple (70 AD). The Jesus followers dispersed to outlying Gentile areas. By the 4th century Rome decreed to make Christianity legal and later made Christianity the state church.
First let me say the LCMS considers Roman Catholics to be brothers and sisters in Christ.
Personally I’d love nothing more than Lutherans and Roman Catholics having altar and pulpit fellowship.
> I see the merits of Catholicism as the original church …
Two of my personal primary objections to Roman Catholicism’s:
1. It says it’s the only church today that can claim to be the one church founded by Jesus Christ 2,000 years ago.
2. It claims Peter was the first Pope.
Those are gross historical inaccuracies and contradict scripture. Here’s why:
1. Jesus didn’t found a church. Jesus found no organization and left no established institution.
What he left were: apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers so that the body of Christ may be built up.
Jesus left his intent that his apostles (“sent one’s”) build an ekklesia (a people called out to assemble/congregate) to be the mystical body of believers.
The Church could not be quickened prior to Jesus completing his work (ascending to the Father and sitting at the right hand of God)
Q: Why?
A: Jesus instructed his disciples to, “wait for the gift my Father promised” Acts 1:4. “Unless I go away, the Holy Spirit will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to You.”
The creed relates “… We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son ...” Nicene Creed
So they waited and kept to themselves.
On Pentecost the Holy Spirit is poured out and at this point the apostles are now empowered to: preaching, teaching and administering the sacraments.
The Holy Spirit founded the Church at Pentecost. God willed to found a new covenant within the previous covenant system He established within Judaism.
As such Jesus rightly said he was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”.
Jesus is the the mediator of a new covenant in his blood.
Jesus is the founder of salvation and the founder our faith.
Paul corroborates that the gospel is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek (Gentile).
Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, the early Jesus followers were known as the Way
Convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah who founded a new covenant with the covenant system, the early Jesus followers were Jews who continued to function as a reform sect within Judaism.
There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
They continued to follow ancestral Jewish markers: go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practiced circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Saturday Sabbath, the Way met in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day.
The early Jesus followers would look and operate much like what we’d today consider Messianic Judaism.
James assumed leadership of the Jerusalem Christian community. The apostles/leaders functioned as a group of presbyters who acted somewhat like the Judean presbyter elders of the Jewish synagogues.
Due to the influx of Gentile proselytes this contentious relationship changed starting with the 50 AD Jerusalem Council of Acts 15.
The separation of Christianity from Judaism would be complete after Rome ransacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple (70 AD).
Gentile Christianity gains strength in outlying Gentile areas.
This is normed by scripture (supported by scripture, harmonizes scripture and doesn’t contradict it.)
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church: a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
2. Peter was not the first Roman Catholic Pope.
On the road to Damascus Saul (later Paul) is converted. He hears Jesus’ voice instructing him to go to the house of Judas in Damascus. (Ananias was instructed by Jesus in a vision to restore Saul’s sight there.) Ananias laid hands on Saul, restored his sight and Saul was filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:17.)
Jesus send Saul to Peter. Jesus had Ananias lay hands on Paul to be filled with the Holy Spirit.
Q: Why didn’t Jesus set a clear precedent for Catholicism’s strict view of the papacy and command Saul to go to Peter in these matters?
A: Peter wasn’t a Roman Catholic Pope.
Paul, writing to his new church plants, is adamant to record that the influence of the apostles made no difference to him. Paul writes, “I didn’t go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me …” In fact Paul waits 3 years after his conversion to even go to Jerusalem to visit what he deemed the pillars and esteemed leaders.
Paul later did travel to Jerusalem to visit the pillars and esteemed leaders. Paul did not acknowledge Peter to be one from whom confirmation should be sought. In fact Paul records that James, Cephas and John were all pillars and all gave him the right hand of fellowship.
Q: Why didn’t Paul acknowledge that Peter was the one from whom confirmation should be sought?
A: Peter wasn’t a Roman Catholic Pope.
Q: How does Paul describe Peter’s role/ministry?
A: Paul describe Peter’s ministry simply as an apostle to the circumcised (aka Jews)?
Q: How does Peter describe his office?
A: Peter describes himself as an apostle of Jesus Christ. Peter describes himself as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ.
Q: Who do Paul/Peter say the rock is?
A: Ephesians 2:19-20 lists Christ Jesus as the cornerstone. Peter describes Jesus as the living stone, precious cornerstone and a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense. 1 Peter 2:4-8
Q: Are Peter, Paul and all the other leaders totally confused or ignorant of Peter’s Roman Catholic Papacy throughout the New Testament?
A: No because Peter wasn’t a Roman Catholic Pope
Q: Then who lead the early church?
A: James, not Peter, presided over the home Church in Jerusalem.
We know from Acts 15 that James presided over the Jerusalem Council
We know James made the final judgment on the matter, “Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God.
We know Eusebius records that James was elected the leader to preside over the home Church in Jerusalem on account of the excellence of his virtue and because Peter, James and John did not strive for honor. Church History Book II, chp 1.2 and 1.3
All this is normed by scripture (supported by scripture, harmonizes scripture and doesn’t contradict it.)
> … the idea of it being so corrupted to the point of needing total reformation makes me uncomfortable
“I think that the intentions of Martin Luther were not mistaken. He was a reformer. … in that time, the Church was not exactly a model to imitate. There was corruption in the Church, there was worldliness, attachment to money, to power...and this he protested.” Pope Francis
> (why would God allow such corruption?)
Perhaps make another post on the Problem of Evil and I’ll explain.
Because Jesus is the the mediator of a new covenant in his blood.
This new covenant was established within the existing covenant system. A covenant is a legal binding contract so things must be resolved legally within the legal system.
Paul would later say first for the Jew then for the Gentile. Romans 1:6
Jesus didn’t found a Christian church because Jesus is the the mediator of a new covenant in his blood.
Jesus is the founder of salvation and the founder our faith.
What Jesus left: apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers so that the body of Christ may be built up.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church: a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, the earliest Jesus followers were known as the Way
These Jewish converts were convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah who founded a new covenant with the existing covenant system.
The early Jesus followers continued to function as a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
They continued to follow ancestral Jewish markers: go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Saturday Sabbath, the Way met with each other in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day.
The early Jesus followers would look and operate much like what we’d today consider Messianic Judaism.
James assumed leadership of the Jerusalem Christian community, the apostles/leaders functioned as a group of presbyters who apparently acted somewhat like the Judean presbyter elders of the Jewish synagogues.
1. Jesus didn’t found a church and left no established institution.
2. Jesus made it very clear that he was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”.
3. The Bible teaches Jesus is the the mediator of a new covenant in his blood.
4. It teaches Jesus is the founder of salvation and the founder our faith.
5. What Jesus left: apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers so that the body of Christ may be built up.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church: a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
1. Jesus didn’t found a Church or a new religion.
2. Jesus said that he was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”.
3. The Bible teaches Jesus is the the mediator of a new covenant in his blood.
4. This new covenant was founded within the previous covenant system that God established within Israel aka Judaism.
5. This harmonizes the NT with the OT and rightly teaches that Jesus is the founder of salvation and the founder our faith.
6. Jesus left: apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers so that the body of Christ may be built up.
7. Jesus commissioned his disciples to “make disciples of all nations” (aka the Great Commission.)
8. Jesus shared his intent with his apostles (Greek, apostolos, a messenger, one sent on a mission) that they build an ekklesia (a people “called out to assemble”) from all nations to be the mystical body of believers called out from the world and into His eternal kingdom.
9. Paul corroborates that the gospel is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek (Gentile).
This harmonizes scripture.
The Jesus followers weren’t called Christians until a year after Paul’s conversion.
Q: What is the new covenant church?
10. After his resurrection Jesus appeared to his disciples saying, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.” John 20:19-23
11. Before returning to the Father, Jesus explicitly instructed his disciples to, “wait for the gift my Father promised” Acts 1:4. “Unless I go away, the Holy Spirit will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to You.” The Holy Spirit is the “Lord and giver of life.” It is the Spirit that brooded over the primordial waters of Genesis, it is the Spirit by which Mary conceived and unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (John 3:5).
12. They waited and kept to themselves.
13. On Pentecost the Holy Spirit was poured out and at this point the apostles are now empowered to build the church: preaching, teaching and administering the sacraments. For this reason Christianity believes and confesses: “… We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son ...” Nicene Creed
14. The Holy Spirit founded the new covenant church at Pentecost; the Holy Spirit is the vicar of Christ. (Latin vicarius is “proxy", noun use of adjective vicarius "substituted, delegated," from vicis "change, interchange, succession; a place, position" (from PIE root weik- (2) "to bend, to wind").)
15. Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, these early Jesus followers were known as the Way
16. Convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, the early Jesus followers continued to function as a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
17. They continued to follow ancestral Jewish markers: go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Saturday Sabbath, the Way then met with each other in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day.
18. The early Jesus followers would look and operate much like what we’d today consider Messianic Judaism.
19. James assumed leadership of the Jerusalem Christian community, the apostles/leaders functioned as a group of presbyters who acted somewhat like the Judean presbyter elders of the Jewish synagogues.
20. Due to the influx of Gentile proselytes the relationship between The Way and Judaism became strained. The Jerusalem Council of Acts 15 was the start of the separation of Christianity from Judaism; it would be complete after Rome ransacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple (70 AD).
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church: a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
First, your question presupposes that Catholicism existed for 1500 years.
It did not.
1. Christianity’s history actually originates in, and is steeped in, Judaism.
2. The book of Acts and Paul’s epistles share important insights about the early Church.
3. We know in fact that after Jesus death the early Jesus followers were considered a sect within Judaism called “the Way” Acts 9:2; 19:9, 23; 22:4; 24:14, 22.
4. We know the Way continued to go to synagogue, followed Mosaic Law and Temple traditions. They observed the Jewish holy days, practiced circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. They kept the Jewish Saturday Sabbath and met with each other on the Lord’s Day aka Sunday.
5. We know James, Peter, John and others worked as a group of presbyters acting somewhat like the Judean presbyter elders of the Jewish synagogues. Eusebius records James the Just was elected bishop on account of his virtue and because Peter, James and John did not strive for honor. Church History Book II, chp 1.2 and 1.3
6. We know the body of believers during the Apostolic Era did not entertain the primacy of one apostle/presbyter/elder.
The early Church was definitely not Roman Catholic. It would look much like Messianic Judaism.
7. Due to the success of the Great Commission, Paul’s conversion and successful missions, we find an influx of Gentiles. Due to the influx the Jewish Jesus followers in Jerusalem felt the Gentiles should convert to Judaism. The Jerusalem Council of 50AD was called to settle the matter.
8. James (not Peter) presides and makes a judgment that they would not force Gentiles to convert.
62 AD – High Priest Ananus charges James of transgressing the Law; James executed in Jerusalem.
66-73AD – The Great Revolt (Judea/Galilee revolt against Rome.) The Roman Empire Jerusalem systematically raided/ransacked/obliterated Jerusalem and slaughters thousands, ransacks the Temple artifacts and destroys the Temple.
James, Peter and Paul are dead, the Temple is destroyed and Jerusalem falls.
The first split between Judaism and Christianity is finalized; Gentile Christianity now gains strength in outlying areas to include Alexandria, Antioch and Rome.
Secondly, many Catholics like to falsely assert Roman Catholicism existed without splits, schisms and reforms.
It did not.
100 – 800AD Patristic Era
9. Christian theologians produce volumes upon volumes of theological/apologetic writings to determine/correct interpretations and to refute arguments against opposing factions.
10. The earliest controversies were Christological in nature and related to Jesus’ divinity/humanity.
We see: Docetism, Arianism, Gnostics and Marcionites and more …
313AD Edict of Milan – agrees to teat Christians benevolently.
380AD edict decrees Nicene Christianity the state religion of the Roman Empire.
Ensuing factions vy for power resulting in more splits and schisms:
445AD Juvenal, the bishop of Jerusalem, wanted to make Jerusalem into a Patriarchate (designating the office and jurisdiction of an ecclesiastical patriarch) but Leo I bishop of Rome opposed it.
11. Leo 1 appealed to Roman Emperor Valentinian III for support and obtained a decree Decree on Papal Power 445 that recognized the primacy of the bishop of Rome and provided for the forcible extradition of any bishop who refused to answer a summons to Rome.
12. At this time the Roman Empire was under constant siege and Roman Emperor Valentinian III (425 to 455) was faced with the dismemberment of the Western Empire.
13. The 445 edict strengthened Rome’s socio-economical and political standing against a regular onslaught of opposition.
Here we find the primacy of Rome given official recognition. EWTN, Leo the Great Pope Doctor of the Church.
14. Leo I is the first to officially claim universal jurisdiction over the worldwide Church thus initiating the rise of the papacy – a uniquely Roman structure based on imperialism and aristocracy.
Enter: Nestorianism and the Assyrian Church of the East split over the Council of Ephesus (431AD), Oriental Orthodoxy split over the Council of Chalcedon (451AD), Pope Sergius I rejected the Quinisext Council (692), and the Fourth Council of Constantinople (869-870AD and 879-880AD) is disputed by Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy.
600 AD Communication between the Greek East and the Latin West by the 600s had become strained.
800AD Phtian Schism due to controversy between Eastern (Byzantine, later Orthodox) and Western (Latin, Roman Catholic) Christianity.
800AD After the fall or the Western Roman Empire Pope Leo III crowned Charlemagne Emperor reviving the title of Emperor. The concept of translatio imperii (sovereign ruler/supreme power) is revived from the ancient emperors of Rome.
This inaugurates the beginning of the Holy Roman Empire. Emperors in Western and Central Europe were now crowned by a Pope; the term "Holy Roman Empire" would be officially adopted from 1254 onward.)
1054AD Great Schism
15. The cracks and fissures in Christianity evident as early as the fourth century led to the Great Schism. We see the Gregorian Reform movement in the 11th century and the Eastern churches viewed Rome’s understanding of the nature of episcopal power as being in direct opposition to the Church’s essentially conciliar structure and thus saw the two ecclesiologies as mutually antithetical.
16. This fundamental difference in ecclesiology would cause all attempts to heal the schism and bridge the divisions to fail. Characteristically, Rome insisted on basing her monarchical claims to “true and proper jurisdiction” (as the Vatican Council of 1870 put it) on Saint Peter.
(This “Roman” exegesis of Matthew 16:18, however, was unknown to the patriarchs of Eastern Orthodoxy. Eastern Orthodox/Western Catholic separate and the division was a toxic mix theological/political/cultural.)
17. Enter: Ireland, Anglo-Saxons (English), Netherlands, Germany, Scandinavia, Serbs and Blugarians = turmoil with Roman Empiricism.
18. Enter the Inquisitions starting 1184 with Roman Catholicism vs many movements throughout Europe considered apostate/heretical to Catholicism.
1378 – 1416 The Western Schism finds multiple claimants to the See of Rome and conflict concerning the rightful holder of the papacy.
19. In 1309 the papacy moves to France but returns to Rome in 1378 causing strife between Italian and French factions resulting in multiple Popes with two sets of cardinals.
20. A 1409 council declared both existing popes to be schismatic and appointed a new one. But the existing popes refused to resign and now there were three papal claimants.
21. Another council in 1414 cleans house and cleared the field of popes and antipopes and elected a Pope.
22. 1415 Jan Hus burned at the stake. His was a Church reformer and a seminal figure in the Bohemian Reformation.
1517 Reformation
23. 1517AD – Pope Leo X grants an indulgence; half the funds go to pay off a bishop’s personal loan (Archbishop Albrecht) and the other half was for Leo to pay for the re-design of St. Peters Basilica. (See The Role of Indulgences in the Building of New Saint Peter’s Basilica)
24. Martin Luther, chair of theology at the Catholic University of Wittenberg Germany, writes letters to his superior and his Archbishop (Archbishop Albrecht) notifying him that an indulgence was issued in his name. Luther includes a list of 95 reasons the indulgence is not canonical. (See Letter to the Archbishop of Mainz, 1517)
Albrecht literally wrote the indulgence and instructions on how to sell them so obviously he never responded to Luther but fowarded the letter to Rome.
1518 – Pope Leo X assigns papal theologians to oppose Luther.
tl;dr: Roman Catholicism did not exist for 1500 years prior to the Reformation. After it’s beginning in later centuries, Roman Catholicism has had many splits, schisms and reforms. Roman Catholicism wasn’t always heading in the right direction since it’s founding.
We regularly see a copy/paste quote, “To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant".
The pull-quote comes from John Henry Newman’s 1878 Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine (specifically Essay Intro, item 5) in which Newman is arguing against Protestants.
Newman writes that Protestant arguments would be fair if they can be maintained.
The reality is: they can be maintained.
Newman then goes on to discuss Christian history starting from Nicaea 325 AD saying it wasn’t Protestant. Therefore by his reasoning it is by default Roman Catholic.
Unfortunately for Newman since 1878 we’ve learned much more about history and the history of the Church:
1. Newman ignores that Christianity’s history actually originates in, and is steeped in, Judaism. The new covenant within God’s covenant system begins in earnest at Pentecost.
2. The book of Acts and Paul’s epistles share important insights about the early Church; for Newman to start Christian History after Nicaea, and after the 380AD Edict of Thessalonica that made Nicene Christianity the state religion of the Roman Empire, is historically inaccurate and pretty misleading.
3. Newman conveniently starts at the beginnings of Roman Catholicism – not Christianity.
We know in fact that after Jesus death the early Jesus followers were considered a sect within Judaism called “the Way” Acts 9:2; 19:9, 23; 22:4; 24:14, 22.
4. We know the Way continued to go to synagogue, followed Mosaic Law and Temple traditions. They observed the Jewish holy days, practiced circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. They kept the Jewish Saturday Sabbath and met with each other on the Lord’s Day aka Sunday.
5. We know James, Peter, John and others worked as a group of presbyters acting somewhat like the Judean presbyter elders of the Jewish synagogues. Eusebius records James the Just was elected bishop on account of his virtue and because Peter, James and John did not strive for honor. Church History Book II, chp 1.2 and 1.3
6. We know the body of believers during the Apostolic Era did not entertain the primacy of one apostle/presbyter/elder.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning is a good entry level, readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church, a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
7. Ironically Newman actually references early writers who present the persecution of Christianity’s early adherents, “The Christian, being at first accounted a kind of Jew, was even on that score included in whatever odium, and whatever bad associations, attended on the Jewish name.” Part 2, Item 6, Section 1 The Church of the First Centuries no. 8
8. Newman argues that all the later Roman doctrines and practices were “hidden” in the church from the beginning – but that’s highly problematic.
Its one thing to use different language to teach something the church has always taught (e.g. the Trinity) but it’s another thing to begin teaching something that the church never taught and even denied (e.g., primacy of Rome, papacy, Mariology, purgatory, etc., etc.).
9. If Roman Catholicism were to appeal to it’s own Vincentian Canon, that we must hold beliefs that were believed everywhere, always and by all – then the papacy would have to give up all claims to supremacy over the entire church, and much of Roman dogma would have to be jettisoned.
10. There’s no scriptural or historical basis that Jesus commissioned Peter in any role other than apostle. James, not Peter, presides over the Jerusalem Council and James makes the judgment on the matter of the Gentiles, “Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God.
Peter describes himself as an apostle of Jesus Christ. (Apostolos: Greek, a messenger, one sent on a mission.) Peter describes himself as: A.) an apostle, B.) a fellow elder and a witness and C.) as a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ.
Paul records that Peter’s apostolic ministry was to the circumcised. Peter, James, John and others are collectively referred to as “esteemed leaders” and “pillars”. Peter exhorts to not domineer over those in your charge but instead be to subject to the elders (not to him) and asserts that Jesus Christ is the chief Shepherd. (1 Peter 5:1-7).
Clement, bishop of Rome 88-99AD, wrote to Corinth to reassert the authority of the local bishops/elders/presbyters as rulers of the church on the ground that the Apostles had appointed such. The First Epistle Of Clement To The Corinthians, Chp 44
Eusebius records that James (not Peter) was elected bishop on account of the excellence of his virtue – and because Peter, James and John did not strive for honor. Church History Book II, chp 1.2 and 1.3
Peter describes Jesus as the living stone “being built up as a spiritual house”.. Peter, quoting Isaiah 28:16, describes Jesus as the precious cornerstone; Peter quotes Psalm 118:22 describing Jesus as the stone the builders rejected becoming the cornerstone and Peter quotes Isaiah 8:14 describing Jesus Christ as the stone that causes people to stumble, a rock that makes them fall. 1 Peter 2:4-8
tl;dr: If Roman Catholicism wants to be taken seriously then it should stop using ambiguity of language to describe the “early church”. Skipping to later centuries is being purposely misleading.
as being the Church of early apostolic
We know from the New Testament that after Jesus death the early Jesus followers were considered a sect within Judaism called “the Way” Acts 9:2; 19:9, 23; 22:4; 24:14, 22.
We know the Way continued to go to synagogue, followed Mosaic Law and Temple traditions. They observed the Jewish holy days, practiced circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. They kept the Jewish Saturday Sabbath and then met separately with each other on the Lord’s Day aka Sunday.
We know James, Peter, John and others worked as a group of presbyters acting somewhat like the Judean presbyter elders of the Jewish synagogues.
Eusebius records James was elected to preside over the home church in Jerusalem on account of his virtue and because Peter, James and John did not strive for honor. Church History Book II, chp 1.2 and 1.3
We know from the New Testament that James, not Peter, presided over the Jerusalem Council and James makes the final judgment on the matter of the Gentiles, “Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God.
We know the body of believers during the Apostolic Era did not entertain the primacy of one sole apostle/presbyter/elder.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning is a good entry level, readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church, a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
There’s no scriptural or historical basis that Jesus commissioned Peter in any role other than apostle. Peter describes himself as an apostle of Jesus Christ. (Apostolos: Greek, a messenger, one sent on a mission.) Peter describes himself as: A.) an apostle, B.) a fellow elder and a witness and C.) as a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ.
We know Paul records that Peter’s apostolic ministry was to the circumcised. Peter, James, John and others are collectively referred to as “esteemed leaders” and “pillars”.
Peter exhorts to not domineer over those in your charge but instead be to subject to the elders (not to him) and asserts that Jesus Christ is the chief Shepherd. (1 Peter 5:1-7).
Clement, bishop of Rome 88-99AD, wrote to Corinth to reassert the authority of the local bishops/elders/presbyters as rulers of the church on the ground that the Apostles had appointed such. The First Epistle Of Clement To The Corinthians, Chp 44
Peter describes Jesus as the living stone “being built up as a spiritual house”.. Peter, quoting Isaiah 28:16, describes Jesus as the precious cornerstone; Peter quotes Psalm 118:22 describing Jesus as the stone the builders rejected becoming the cornerstone and Peter quotes Isaiah 8:14 describing Jesus Christ as the stone that causes people to stumble, a rock that makes them fall. 1 Peter 2:4-8
I’ll note that Lutherans consider Catholics to be brothers and sisters in Christ. Lutherans have no problem with Peter being first among equals (equal to other members of their group but accorded a degree of respect.)
Lutherans even have no have a problem with Peter representing the Church in the teaching of Matthew 16 because there Peter represented the Church and nothing in that account is exclusive to Peter.
For example the Gospel of John relates that “Jesus said <strong>to them</strong> again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” And when he had said this, he breathed <strong>on them</strong> and said <strong>to them</strong>, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.” – John 20:21-23 (emphasis mine.)
They all received the Office of the Keys (spiritual rights, duties and privileges necessary for the welfare of the Church on earth.)
Jesus did not come to found a new religion adding more rituals and more walls of separation. Jesus didn’t come to favor one sole group of believers. Jesus came to break down the wall of hostility to make us one in the Spirit.
Frankly the last thing the apostles would have thought to do was set up their leadership structure to function like imperial Rome who had just murdered Jesus and was systematically martyring their friends and family.
> Since Christianity emerged from Judaism and they both pray to Abrahams God, why does the Jewish idea of the messiah not apply to Jesus?
1. First, one glaring misconception is the presumption that the Jews in Jesus era did not consider Jesus the messiah.
2. Jesus, Joseph and Mary were Jews; the apostles, disciples and earliest Jesus followers were in fact Jews who were convinced Jesus was the messiah.
3. Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, these early Jesus followers were known as the Way
4. Convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, the Way continued to function much like a reform sect within Judaism.
(There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.)
5. The early Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Jewish Saturday Sabbath, the Way met in each other’s homes on the following day (Sunday aka the Lord’s Day.)
The early Jesus followers would look and operate in a sense like what today we’d call Messianic Judaism.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning is a good entry level, readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church is a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
> He didnt rule the Jewish people nor did he save the Jewish nation.
Much of Judaism’s messianic notions of what the Messiah would do are from extant writings. The fact is Judaism placed the primary emphasis on recognizing the messianic age — not on the person of the messiah.
Q: Why?
A: They believe each generation has a potential messiah, and if the messianic age were to happen in that generation, then that person would be anointed (filled with God’s spirit) and step up to become messiah.
> Also, why did God decide to come to earth in human form exactly then and not before or after?
Because that time was when the fullness of time had come
See more on the fullness of time.
> Because Protestants typically accept huge swathes of Christianity (Catholicism) without realizing that they follow Catholicism.
Odd anti-Protestant flex, but ok, let’s address it:
Some zealous Catholics accept early Christianity as Catholicism without realizing early Christianity wasn’t Roman Catholic.
Christianity’s history actually originates in, and is steeped in, Judaism.
We know in fact that after Jesus death the early Jesus followers were considered a sect within Judaism called “the Way” Acts 9:2; 19:9, 23; 22:4; 24:14, 22.
The Way continued to go to synagogue, followed Mosaic Law and Temple traditions. They observed the Jewish holy days, practiced circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. They kept the Jewish Saturday Sabbath and met with each other on the Lord’s Day aka Sunday.
Hardly Roman Catholic practices.
We know James, Peter, John and others worked as a group of presbyters acting somewhat like the Judean presbyter elders of the Jewish synagogues. Eusebius records James the Just was elected bishop on account of his virtue and because Peter, James and John did not strive for honor. Church History Book II, chp 1.2 and 1.3
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning is a good entry level, readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church, a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
> The Catholic Church accepted Paul as an apostle.
The early church aka the Way, accepted Paul as an apostle. James, Cephas and John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised.
That's why we all believe the things he said.
> Why do Protestants accept it? Well most of them seem to believe that the Church was guided by the Holy Spirit, until it stopped being guided in the Middle Ages.
The Roman Catholic Church’s corruption in the Middle Ages is historically well documented. Even Pope Francis concedes Luther’s intentions were not mistaken and that “there was corruption in the Church, there was worldliness, attachment to money, to power ... and this he protested.”
I’m Lutheran and we believe Catholics are brothers and sisters in Christ so I don’t understand the odd flex and anti-Protestant hostility.
> What is the point of Christians having different denominations?
I’m convinced that perhaps the point of splits, schisms and denominations is to ensure mankind doesn’t “build a city with a tower” in order to “reach the Heavens” by our own prideful means in order to make a name for ourselves. (See Tower of Babel, Genesis 11:1-9](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+11%3A1-9&version=NIV).
We simply can’t deny that God willed to purposely confuse man’s language “so they will not understand each other.” So I’d be cautious of users here who desperately want to portray Christianity as if it were united for the first few hundred years. Unfortunately that’s a gross historical inaccuracy and frankly it contradicts the Tower of Babel account.
We know the Bible clearly records that Israel in the Old Testament was often divided. The Bible also relates that there was religious and cultural diversity among the Jews in Jesus’ era. At that time under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes and Zealots.
We also know Christianity was founded in and is steeped in Judaism. We know the early Jesus followers were known as the Way and that they continued to function much like a reform sect within Judaism.
70 AD – We know that the split from Judaism was finalized after Rome decimated Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple. Gentile Christianity then gained strength in outlying Gentile areas.
100AD - : We know that Christian writers produce volumes upon volumes of theological/apologetic writings to determine/correct interpretations and to refute arguments against opposing factions. The earliest controversies were Christological in nature and related to Jesus’ divinity/humanity. We see: Docetism, Arianism, Gnostics and Marcionites and more.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning
Church history:
1. The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning is a good entry level, readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
2. History Of The Christian Church, a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church. It’s not too academic and readable.
1. We know in fact that after Jesus death the early Jesus followers were considered a sect within Judaism called “the Way” Acts 9:2; 19:9, 23; 22:4; 24:14, 22.
2. We know the Way continued to go to synagogue, followed Mosaic Law and Temple traditions. They observed the Jewish holy days, practiced circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. They kept the Jewish Saturday Sabbath and met with each other on the Lord’s Day aka Sunday.
3. We know James, Peter, John and others worked as a group of presbyters acting somewhat like the Judean presbyter elders of the Jewish synagogues. Eusebius records James the Just was elected bishop on account of his virtue and because Peter, James and John did not strive for honor. Church History Book II, chp 1.2 and 1.3
4. We know the body of believers during the Apostolic Era did not entertain the primacy of one apostle/presbyter/elder.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning is a good entry level, readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church, a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
5. There’s no scriptural or historical basis that Jesus commissioned Peter in any role other than apostle.
James, not Peter, presides over the Jerusalem Council.
James, not Peter, makes the judgment on the matter of the Gentiles, “Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God.
Q: How does Peter describe himself and his role?
A: Peter describes himself as an apostle of Jesus Christ. (Apostolos: Greek, a messenger, one sent on a mission.) Peter describes himself as: A.) an apostle, B.) a fellow elder and a witness and C.) as a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ.
Q: How do others in scripture describe Peter’s role?
A: Paul records that Peter’s apostolic ministry was to the circumcised. Peter, James, John and others are collectively referred to as “esteemed leaders” and “pillars”.
Peter exhorts to not domineer over those in your charge but instead be to subject to the elders (not to him) and asserts that Jesus Christ is the chief Shepherd. (1 Peter 5:1-7).
Q: How do the early Church Fathers describe the leadership structure of the Apostolic Era?
Clement, bishop of Rome 88-99AD, wrote to Corinth to reassert the authority of the local bishops/elders/presbyters as rulers of the church on the ground that the Apostles had appointed such. The First Epistle Of Clement To The Corinthians, Chp 44
Eusebius records that James the Just was elected bishop on account of the excellence of his virtue – and because Peter, James and John did not strive for honor. Church History Book II, chp 1.2 and 1.3
Q: How does Peter describe Jesus?
A: Peter describes Jesus as the living stone “being built up as a spiritual house”.. Peter, quoting Isaiah 28:16, describes Jesus as the precious cornerstone; Peter quotes Psalm 118:22 describing Jesus as the stone the builders rejected becoming the cornerstone and Peter quotes Isaiah 8:14 describing Jesus Christ as the stone that causes people to stumble, a rock that makes them fall. 1 Peter 2:4-8
Q: Didn’t the Church Fathers believe Peter was the “rock” and the Church was to be built on him?
A: No. Augustine’s (354-430AD) allegiance was unequivocally to Rome – but not because he believed that Peter was the Rock. Augustine believed: Peter from the rock; not the rock from Peter. Augustine felt Peter’s pre–eminence (and therefore Rome’s) was in Peter being blessed to represent the disciples and the body of believers (the Church) in the teaching of Matt. 16*. (John Rotelle, The Works of Saint Augustine, Sermons on the Saints, Vol. III/8, Sermon 295.)
“Christ is the rock, Peter is the Christian people. Peter is so called from the rock; not the rock from Peter; as Christ is not called Christ from the Christian, but the Christian from Christ. Jesus says I will build thee upon Myself, not Myself upon thee. … that Peter might be built upon the Rock, not the Rock upon Peter.” Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Volume VI, St. Augustine, Sermon XXVI, 1-2.
“For petra (rock) is not derived from Peter, but Peter from petra; just as Christ is not called so from the Christian, but the Christian from Christ. For on this very account the Lord said, "On this rock will I build my Church," because Peter had said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." On this rock, therefore, He said, which thou hast confessed. I will build my Church. For the Rock (Petra) was Christ; and on this foundation was Peter himself also built. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Christ Jesus.” Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Volume VII, St. Augustine, On the Gospel of John, Tractate 124.5
6. In Matthew 16 Peter represented the Church and nothing in that account is exclusive to Peter.
The Gospel of John relates that “Jesus said <strong>to them</strong> again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” And when he had said this, he breathed <strong>on them</strong> and said <strong>to them</strong>, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.” – John 20:21-23 (emphasis mine.) They all received the Office of the Keys (spiritual rights, duties and privileges necessary for the welfare of the Church on earth.)
Conclusion: Jesus did not come to found a new religion adding more Priests, more rituals and more walls of separation. Jesus didn’t come to favor one sole group of believers. Jesus came to break down the wall of hostility to make us one in the Spirit.
Frankly the last thing the apostles would have thought to do was set up their leadership structure to function like imperial Rome who had just murdered Jesus and was systematically martyring their friends and family.
> I understand high views of Mary have been apart of Christianity from the earliest days, indeed Mary as the Theotokos plays a central role in Orthodox Christian theology and liturgy …
Many make the false assumption that “the earliest days” of Christianity started in the 3rd or 4th centuries. They did not.
Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, the early Jesus followers were known as the Way
Convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah who founded a new covenant with the covenant system, these early Jesus followers continued to function as a reform sect within Judaism.
There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism. They continued to follow ancestral Jewish markers.
The early Jesus followers would look and operate something like what we’d today consider Messianic Judaism. Due to success of the Great Commission they realized an influx of Gentile proselytes.
This contentious relationship would change starting with the 50 AD Jerusalem Council of Acts 15. The separation of Christianity from Judaism would be complete after Rome ransacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple (70 AD).
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church: a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
The first three centuries of Christianity
There was little to no focus on Mary. I’m the later Patristic era we find Christian theologians produce volumes upon volumes of theological/apologetic writings to determine/correct interpretations and to refute arguments against opposing factions. The earliest controversies were Christological in nature and related to Jesus’ divinity/humanity. ( see Docetism, Arianism, Gnostics and Marcionites and more.)
In response to the rising opposition to Jesus Christ’s divinity/humanity — we then see rising assertions about Mary in order to defend/bolster Jesus Christ’s divinity/humanity.
1. Jesus actually didn’t found a church; he found no organization and left no established institution.
2. Jesus made it very clear that he was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”.
3. The Bible teaches that Jesus is the the mediator of a new covenant in his blood.
4. God founded the new covenant within the covenant system that God had previously established within Israel/Judaism.
5. This harmonizes the NT with the OT and rightly Jesus teaches that is the founder of salvation and the founder our faith.
6. What Jesus left: apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers so that the body of Christ may be built up.
7. Jesus commissioned his disciples with his intent that they “make disciples of all nations” (aka the Great Commission.)
8. Jesus shared his intent with his apostles (Greek, apostolos, a messenger, one sent on a mission) that they build an ekklesia (a people “called out to assemble”) from all nations to be the mystical body of believers called out from the world and into His eternal kingdom.
9. Paul corroborates that the gospel is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek (Gentile). This harmonizes scripture.
10. In fact we know the early Jesus followers weren’t even called Christians until a year after Paul’s conversion.
Q: So what is the church?
Q: Who has the keys to this church (e.g. the Office of the Keys)?
A: The disciples — not just Peter.
11. After his resurrection Jesus appeared to his disciples saying, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.” John 20:19-23
The Holy Spirit
12. Before returning to the Father, Jesus explicitly instructed his disciples to, “wait for the gift my Father promised” Acts 1:4. “Unless I go away, the Holy Spirit will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to You.” The Holy Spirit is the “Lord and giver of life.”
13. So they waited and kept to themselves like the dry bones in the valley waiting for <em>the breath</em> of the Spirit within them so that they may live. Ezekiel 37:1-14
15. Then at Pentecost the Holy Spirit is poured out and at this point the apostles are now brought to life and empowered to build the church: preaching, teaching and administering the sacraments. For this reason Christianity believes and confesses: “… We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son ...” Nicene Creed
16. The Holy Spirit founded the new covenant church at Pentecost and the Holy Spirit is the vicar of Christ. (Latin vicarius is “proxy", noun use of adjective vicarius "substituted, delegated," from vicis "change, interchange, succession; a place, position" (from PIE root weik- (2) "to bend, to wind").)
The Way
17. Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, these early Jesus followers were known as the Way
18. Convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah who founded a new covenant with the covenant system, the early Jesus followers continued to function as a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism. They continued to follow ancestral Jewish markers: go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Saturday Sabbath, the Way met with each other in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day.
19. The early Jesus followers would look and operate much like what we’d today consider Messianic Judaism.
20. James — not Peter— assumed leadership of the Jerusalem Christian community. The apostles/leaders functioned as a group of presbyters who apparently acted somewhat like the Judean presbyter elders of the Jewish synagogues.
21. Due to the influx of Gentile proselytes this contentious relationship would change starting with the 50 AD Jerusalem Council of Acts 15. The separation of Christianity from Judaism would be complete after Rome ransacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple (70 AD).
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church: a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, these early Jesus followers were known as the Way
Convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah who founded a new covenant with the covenant system, the early Jesus followers continued to function as a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism. They continued to follow ancestral Jewish markers: go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Saturday Sabbath, the Way met with each other in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day.
The early Jesus followers would look and operate much like what we’d today consider Messianic Judaism. James assumed leadership of the Jerusalem Christian community, the apostles/leaders functioned as a group of presbyters who apparently acted somewhat like the Judean presbyter elders of the Jewish synagogues.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church: a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
> In Christianity, isn’t authority and hierarchy important?
Yes.
> How can you have the Bible without authority?
Don’t know because authority and hierarchy are important.
> Wasn’t it put together and gnostic gospels refused to be put in by hierarchical authority?
Yes.
> In Protestantism there is no authority.
Explain please.
> Liturgy. In Catholicism and orthodox, they still carry on the liturgy and sacraments. Protestants don’t correct? Why?
I’m Lutheran and we have liturgy and sacraments.
> Splintered sects. Now there is some splintering in Catholicism ….
The false presumption here is that for most of history since the death of Jesus that Christendom remained largely united.
That’s a grotesque historical inaccuracy.
Splits and schisms in Christianity
The early Jesus followers were known as the Way
These, convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, continued to function much like a reform sect within Judaism.
The early Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Sabbath, the Way met in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day (aka Sunday).
Due to the success of the Great Commission, Paul’s conversion and successful missions, we find an influx of Gentiles. Due to the influx the Jewish Jerusalem believers felt the Gentiles should essentially convert to Judaism.
The Jerusalem Council of 50AD was called to settle the matter. James presides and makes a judgment that they would not force Gentiles to convert.
66-73AD – The Great Revolt (Judea/Galilee revolt against Rome.) The Roman Empire Jerusalem systematically raided/ransacked/obliterated Jerusalem and slaughters thousands, ransacks the Temple artifacts and destroys the Temple. James, Peter and Paul are dead, the Temple is destroyed and Jerusalem falls.
The first split in Christianity is finalized; Gentile Christianity now gains strength in outlying areas of Alexandria, Antioch and Rome.
100 – 800AD Patristic Era
Christian theologians produce volumes upon volumes of theological/apologetic writings to determine/correct interpretations and to refute arguments against opposing factions. The earliest controversies were Christological in nature and related to Jesus’ divinity/humanity. We see: Docetism, Arianism, Gnostics and Marcionites and more.
313AD Edict of Milan – agrees to teat Christians benevolently.
380AD edict decrees Nicene Christianity the state religion of the Roman Empire; ensuing factions vy for power resulting in splits and schism.
445AD Juvenal, the bishop of Jerusalem, wanted to make Jerusalem into a Patriarchate (designating the office and jurisdiction of an ecclesiastical patriarch) but Leo I bishop of Rome opposed it. Leo 1 appealed to Roman Emperor Valentinian III for support and obtained a decree Decree on Papal Power 445 that recognized the primacy of the bishop of Rome and provided for the forcible extradition of any bishop who refused to answer a summons to Rome.
At this time the Roman Empire was under constant siege and Roman Emperor Valentinian III (425 to 455) was faced with the dismemberment of the Western Empire. The 445 edict strengthened Rome’s socio-economical and political standing against a regular onslaught of opposition and here we find the primacy of Rome given official recognition. EWTN, Leo the Great Pope Doctor of the Church. Leo I is the first to officially claim universal jurisdiction over the worldwide Church thus initiating the rise of the papacy – a uniquely Roman structure based on imperialism and aristocracy.
Enter: Nestorianism and the Assyrian Church of the East split over the Council of Ephesus (431AD), Oriental Orthodoxy split over the Council of Chalcedon (451AD), Pope Sergius I rejected the Quinisext Council (692), and the Fourth Council of Constantinople (869-870AD and 879-880AD) is disputed by Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy.
600 AD Communication between the Greek East and the Latin West by the 600s had become dangerous and practically ceased. 800 AD Phtian Schism due to controversy between Eastern (Byzantine, later Orthodox) and Western (Latin, Roman Catholic) Christianity.
800AD After the fall or the Western Roman Empire Pope Leo III crowned Charlemagne Emperor reviving the title of Emperor. The concept of translatio imperii (sovereign ruler/supreme power) is revived from the ancient emperors of Rome. (This inaugurates the beginning of the Holy Roman Empire. Emperors in Western and Central Europe were now crowned by a Pope; the term "Holy Roman Empire" would be officially adopted from 1254 onward.)
1054AD Great Schism
The cracks and fissures in Christianity evident as early as the fourth century led to the Great Schism. We see the Gregorian Reform movement in the 11th century and the Eastern churches viewed Rome’s understanding of the nature of episcopal power as being in direct opposition to the Church’s essentially conciliar structure and thus saw the two ecclesiologies as mutually antithetical.
This fundamental difference in ecclesiology would cause all attempts to heal the schism and bridge the divisions to fail. Characteristically, Rome insisted on basing her monarchical claims to “true and proper jurisdiction” (as the Vatican Council of 1870 put it) on Saint Peter. This “Roman” exegesis of Matthew 16:18, however, was unknown to the patriarchs of Eastern Orthodoxy. Eastern Orthodox/Western Catholic separate and the division was a toxic mix theological/political/cultural.
Enter: Ireland, Anglo-Saxons (English), Netherlands, Germany, Scandinavia, Serbs and Blugarians = turmoil with Roman Empiricism.
Enter the Inquisitions starting 1184 with Roman Catholicism vs many movements throughout Europe considered apostate/heretical to Catholicism.
1378 – 1416 The Western Schism finds multiple claimants to the See of Rome and conflict concerning the rightful holder of the papacy. In 1309 the papacy moves to France but returns to Rome in 1378 causing strife between Italian and French factions resulting in multiple Popes with two sets of cardinals. A 1409 council declared both existing popes to be schismatic and appointed a new one. But the existing popes refused to resign and now there were three papal claimants. Another council in 1414 cleans house and cleared the field of popes and antipopes and elected a Pope.
Question for you: Is that a sign of being on the incorrect path?
> both sort of claim to be the original church founded by Jesus so ….
Perhaps but Jesus didn’t found one particular church. In fact he founded no organization and left no established institution.
What Jesus left were: apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers so that the body of Christ may be built up. Jesus commissioned his disciples to “make disciples of all nations” (aka the Great Commission.)
The fact is that prior to his ascension Jesus shared this intent with his apostles (Greek, apostolos, a messenger, one sent on a mission); that they build an ekklesia (a people “called out to assemble”) from all nations to be the mystical body of believers called out from the world and into His eternal kingdom.
Q: So what is the “original” church?
The Holy Spirit is the Lord and giver of life and the vicar of Christ. (Latin vicarius is “proxy", noun use of adjective vicarius "substituted, delegated," from vicis "change, interchange, succession; a place, position" (from PIE root weik- (2) "to bend, to wind").)
The HS founded the new covenant church at Pentecost. Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, these early Jesus followers were known as the Way
Convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah who founded a new covenant with the covenant system, the early Jesus followers continued to function as a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism. They continued to follow ancestral Jewish markers: go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Saturday Sabbath, the Way met with each other in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day.
The early Jesus followers would look and operate much like what we’d today view as Messianic Judaism. James assumed leadership of the Jerusalem Christian community, the apostles/leaders functioned as a group of presbyters who apparently acted somewhat like the Judean presbyter elders of the Jewish synagogues.
We see the beginnings of the first split in about 50 AD after the early Church began having an influx of Gentile proselytes. Acts 15 covers the Jerusalem Council in which the topic of the Gentiles is discussed and James makes a judgment on the matter. The separation of Christianity from Judaism would be complete after Rome ransacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple (70 AD).
> Is there one particular scholarly work, or maybe one work from an early church member, which outlines why the split happened and what the differences in opinion are, that I can explore?
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church: a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
tl;dr: Be very careful when appealing to the authority of an “original” Church.
> Early Christians never went to church.
Well frankly because Jesus didn’t found a church. Jesus is the founder of salvation and the founder our faith. Jesus is also the mediator of this new covenant in his blood.
God founded this new covenant within the covenant system that was already established within Israel/Judaism. The “church” isn’t a what – but a who: whoever confesses that the son of man (Jesus manifested in the flesh is the Son of the living God. God abides in them, and they in God. So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.
What Jesus left were: apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers so that the body of Christ may be built up. Jesus commissioned his disciples to “make disciples of all nations” (aka the Great Commission and shared his intent that his apostles (Greek, apostolos, a messenger, one sent on a mission) build an ekklesia (a people “called out to assemble”) from all nations to be the mystical body of believers on earth.
In fact the early Jesus followers weren’t even called Christians until a year after Paul’s conversion.
The Holy Spirit founded the church at Pentecost. Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, these early Jesus followers were known as the Way
They didn’t go to Church but they did go to synagogue. Convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah the early Jesus followers continued to function as a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism. They continued to follow ancestral Jewish markers: go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Saturday Sabbath, the Way met with each other in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church: a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
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History Of The Christian Church | - | - | 4.5/5.0 |
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> There’s historical evidence that Jesus founded the Catholic Church.
Sorry but no, there isn’t:
1. Jesus didn’t found a church; he found no organization and left no established institution.
2. In fact Jesus made it very clear that he was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”.
3. The Bible teaches that Jesus is the the mediator of a new covenant in his blood.
4. God founded a new covenant within the covenant system that God had previously established within Israel/Judaism.
5. This harmonizes the NT with the OT and rightly Jesus teaches that is the founder of salvation and the founder our faith.
6. What Jesus left were: apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers so that the body of Christ may be built up.
7. Jesus commissioned his disciples to “make disciples of all nations” (aka the Great Commission.)
8. Jesus shared his intent with his apostles (Greek, apostolos, a messenger, one sent on a mission) that they build an ekklesia (a people “called out to assemble”) from all nations to be the mystical body of believers called out from the world and into His eternal kingdom.
9. Paul corroborates that the gospel is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek (Gentile).
10. This harmonizes scripture. In fact the Jesus followers weren’t even called Christians until a year after Paul’s conversion.
Q: So what is the church?
Q: Who has the keys to this church (e.g. the Office of the Keys)?
A: The apostles. After his resurrection Jesus appeared to his disciples saying, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.” John 20:19-23
&nbsp;
The Holy Spirit
11. Before returning to the Father, Jesus explicitly instructed his disciples to, “wait for the gift my Father promised” Acts 1:4. “Unless I go away, the Holy Spirit will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to You.” The Holy Spirit is the “Lord and giver of life.”
12. So They waited and kept to themselves like the dry bones in the valley waiting for <em>the breath</em> of the Spirit within them so that they may live. Ezekiel 37:1-14
13. On Pentecost the Holy Spirit is poured out and at this point the apostles are now brought to life and empowered to build the church: preaching, teaching and administering the sacraments. For this reason Christianity believes and confesses: “… We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son ...” Nicene Creed
14. The Holy Spirit founded the new covenant church at Pentecost and the Holy Spirit is the vicar of Christ. (Latin vicarius is “proxy", noun use of adjective vicarius "substituted, delegated," from vicis "change, interchange, succession; a place, position" (from PIE root weik- (2) "to bend, to wind").)
&nbsp;
The Way
15. Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, these early Jesus followers were known as the Way
16. Convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah who founded a new covenant with the covenant system, the early Jesus followers continued to function as a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism. They continued to follow ancestral Jewish markers: go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Saturday Sabbath, the Way met with each other in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church: a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
> Does that mean that Catholicism is true, and that the early christians were catholic/orthodox,
No. The early Jesus followers would look and operate much like what we’d today consider Messianic Judaism.
James (not Peter) assumed leadership of the Jerusalem Christian community, the apostles/leaders functioned as a group of presbyters who apparently acted somewhat like the Judean presbyter elders of the Jewish synagogues.
> Sola scriptura makes a little sense to me now considering the books were written before the Catholic Church put them together but idk.
I’ll bet Sola scriptura doesn’t mean what you think it means. It is not mean Bible onlyism.
> The early christians didn't seem to believe in just faith alone.
Then what did they believe?
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> What would it actually be like to live in a Christian nation?
A theocracy lead by officials who are regarded as divinely guided. If the priestly caste of leaders have to actually follow Christ, then because they’re fallible humans, they’d need a check and balance mechanism to ensure they remain divinely guided.
> In my mind I would base this off what the early church was striving for
In the early Church James was selected to lead the home Church in Jerusalem on account of the excellence of his virtue – and because Peter, James and John did not strive for honor. Church History Book II, chp 1.2 and 1.3
The apostles/leaders functioned as a group of presbyters who acted somewhat like the Judean presbyter elders of the Jewish synagogues. Peter, James, John and others are collectively referred to as “esteemed leaders” and “pillars”.
Even up to the turn of the century we find Clement 1, bishop of Rome, wrote to the church in Corinth to reassert the authority of the local bishops/elders/presbyters as rulers of the church on the ground that the Apostles had appointed such. The First Epistle Of Clement To The Corinthians, Chp 44
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church: a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
> Why would Catholics get ruffled over the early church?
They assert Jesus founded Catholicism when we know the early Jesus followers were considered a sect within Judaism known as “the Way” Acts 9:2; 19:9, 23; 22:4; 24:14, 22.
Again I highly recommend:
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning is a good entry level, readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church, a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
> And I consider the first few centuries as early.
To me early means early: Apostolic Era post-Pentecost and before Rome ransacked Jerusalem and destroyed the temple in 70 AD. Reasonably perhaps allowing up to the first century.
Well the early Church, the first Jesus followers, continued to keep ancestral Jewish customs. They continued to go to synagogue, followed Mosaic Law and Temple traditions. They observed the Jewish holy days, practiced circumcision of their male children and followed kosher dietary laws. At this time the Jesus movement was considered a sect within Judaism known as “the Way” Acts 9:2; 19:9, 23; 22:4; 24:14, 22.
I highly recommend:
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning is a good entry level, readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church, a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
In Acts 2 we find that they continued to meet in the temple courts; they also “broke bread” from “house to house” praising God. Acts 2:42-46, Acts 5:42, Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 10:16
We know that at the turn of the first century that Christians gathered for worship on Sunday and that the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets were read. The president of the group would give an instruction, they would all rise together and pray, and the bread and wine and water are brought. The president would offer prayers and thanksgivings, the people assent saying Amen, and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given. (Justin Martyr, 1 Apology, Chap. 67.)
No. The early Jesus followers weren’t even called Christians until a year after Paul’s conversion.
1. Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, the earliest Jesus followers were known as the Way
2. Convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah who founded a new covenant with the existing covenant system, the early Jesus followers continued to function as a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
3. These continued to follow ancestral Jewish markers: go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Saturday Sabbath, the Way met with each other in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day.
The early Jesus followers would look and operate much like what we’d today consider Messianic Judaism. James assumed leadership of this Jerusalem community and the apostles/leaders functioned as a group of presbyters who acted somewhat like the Judean presbyter elders of the Jewish synagogues.
Due to the success of the Great Commission and influx of Gentile proselytes this relationship was somewhat contentious. After Rome ransacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple in 70 AD we see the Gentile Church move to the outlying Gentile areas and strongholds. At the turn of the first century we find Christianity begins evolving into a more Gentile religion.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church: a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
Acts 15 begins with men from Judea teaching that Gentiles need to be “circumcised according to the custom of Moses.” (vs 1) In verse 5 we learn these men were believers, Jewish Jesus followers who “belonged to the party of the Pharisees”. They believed that Gentiles must follow Jewish ancestral markers of the Old Covenant.
Verse 6: “The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. 7 And after there had been much debate” then Peter spoke. Then Barnabus and Paul spoke (vs 12) and after they finished then James makes the final judgment on the matter, “Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God …”
Using Hebrew prophets/scripture as support, James rightly points out that Gentiles are sons of Noah, not Abraham, and therefore he rightly only holds them to the Noahide laws.
> Was the finding of the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15 a partially correct answer?
No.
> Were they still in process of figuring out how to live in God's kingdom under Jesus?
Yes.
1. God founded the new covenant within the covenant system that God had previously established within Israel/Judaism.
2. Jesus left: apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers so that the body of Christ may be built up. Jesus commissioned his disciples to “make disciples of all nations” (aka the Great Commission.) Jesus intent was that his apostles (Greek, apostolos, a messenger, one sent on a mission) build an ekklesia (a people “called out to assemble”) from all nations to be the mystical body of believers called out from the world and into His eternal kingdom.
Paul corroborates that the gospel is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek (Gentile). This harmonizes the Old and New Testament.
The Jesus followers weren’t called Christians until a year after Paul’s conversion.
Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, the earliest Jesus followers were known as the Way
Convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah who founded a new covenant with the covenant system, the early Jesus followers continued to function as a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism. They continued to follow ancestral Jewish markers: go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Saturday Sabbath, the Way met with each other in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day.
The early Jesus followers would look and operate much like what we’d today consider Messianic Judaism. James assumed leadership of this Jerusalem community and the apostles/leaders functioned as a group of presbyters who acted somewhat like the Judean presbyter elders of the Jewish synagogues.
Due to the success of the Great Commission and influx of Gentile proselytes this relationship was somewhat contentious. The 50 AD Jerusalem Council was the beginning of the separation of Christianity from Judaism. It would be pretty much finalized after Rome ransacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple in 70 AD.
At this point we see the Gentile Church move to the outer Gentile areas and strongholds to start evolving into a more Gentile religion.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church: a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
Preface: Lutherans consider Roman Catholics to be brothers and sisters in Christ. We actually agree on much.
> i ask you protestants, why did it take 1500 years for us to supposedly figure out that this supposedly is not the true Body and Blood?
Lutherans believe and confess that the Lord’s Supper is the true body and blood.
> Holy Mary, Mother of God: we do not worship Mary. we simply love her and ask her to pray for us.
Lutherans believe and confess that Mary was the blessed virgin, mother of Jesus and therefore mother of God. Mary’s last recorded words were, “Do whatever He tells you” (John 2:5) and we believe that is a fine example to follow.
> Authority: Peter was given clear authority and was told to build Our Lords Church. …
What is clear in Matthew 16 is that Jesus is teaching his disciples who he is – not who Peter is. Peter, along with James and John, was privileged to be in Jesus inner circle and blessed to witness key events in Jesus’ ministry. Lutherans do not have a problem with Peter being accorded respect in regards to his seniority as “first among equals”.
Note nothing in Matthew 16 was exclusive to Peter. As you noted Peter was not the sole recipient of the Office of the Keys. "And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.” (John 20: 22-23).
Peter was never confused about his commission or role:
1. Peter and Paul agree that Peter’s ministry was to be the apostle to the circumcised = Jews: Peter was entrusted to the circumcised aka Jews.
2. Peter describes himself as: a.) an apostle, b.) a fellow elder and a witness and c.) as a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ.
3. How does Peter describe Jesus? A living stone like other believers to then become like living stones “being built up as a spiritual house”..
4. Augustine (354-430AD) believed: Peter from the rock; not the rock from Peter. Augustine felt Peter’s pre–eminence (and therefore Rome’s) was in Peter being blessed to represent the disciples and the body of believers in the teaching of Matt. 16*. (John Rotelle, The Works of Saint Augustine, Sermons on the Saints, Vol. III/8, Sermon 295.)
5. “Christ is the rock, Peter is the Christian people. Peter is so called from the rock; not the rock from Peter; as Christ is not called Christ from the Christian, but the Christian from Christ. Jesus says I will build thee upon Myself, not Myself upon thee. … that Peter might be built upon the Rock, not the Rock upon Peter.” Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Volume VI, St. Augustine, Sermon XXVI, 1-2.
6. “For petra (rock) is not derived from Peter, but Peter from petra; just as Christ is not called so from the Christian, but the Christian from Christ. For on this very account the Lord said, "On this rock will I build my Church," because Peter had said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." On this rock, therefore, He said, which thou hast confessed. I will build my Church. For the Rock (Petra) was Christ; and on this foundation was Peter himself also built. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Christ Jesus.” Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Volume VII, St. Augustine, On the Gospel of John, Tractate 124.5
7. James is selected by the apostles to preside over the home Church in Jerusalem. Eusebius records this was on account of Peter, James (the other James) and John did not strive for honor. Church History Book II, chp 1.2 and 1.3
8. James, not Peter, presides over the Jerusalem Council of Acts 15. James, no Peter, makes the final judgment on the matter of the Gentiles.
> There has been a clear line of Popes since St Peter [2].
9. Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, these early Jesus followers were known as the Way
10. These, convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, continued to function much like a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
11. The early Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Saturday Sabbath the Way met in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day.
The early Jesus followers would look and operate nothing like Roman Catholicism; it would be much closer to what we’d call Messianic Judaism. The absolute last thing the apostles would have considered would be patterning their leadership structure to look like that of Rome – who had just murdered Jesus and was systematically martyring their family and friends.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning is a good entry level, readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church is a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
> Yes or No!
No but thanks.
> I'm inviting you to become Catholic. I call heaven and earth against all of you this very day.
What’s that mean please?
> I invite you to the oldest form of Christianity there is.
I invite you to read a history book. The earliest Jesus followers would look much like what we’d today call Messianic Judaism.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church: a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
> Will you answer the call!?
Sorry it no. From your post history you’re not happy with Catholicism so why the zealous post?
> I find it amazing that the early church compiled the “Bible”, yet all “Protestants” deny the authority of the early church and their teachings…
I find it amazing that a particular group of Christians are predominately the ones who chronically gatekeep here and constantly assert their primacy and authority over all Christendom.
Pro-tip: Protestants are not a collective group having a collectively agreed upon leadership structure or collectively agreed upon beliefs and doctrines. Because we don’t collectively agree on doctrines – it’s irrational to claim that we collectively deny yours.
If you had any awareness of knowledge of history – you’d know that. When I see someone speak like this about Protestants, that’s a clear “tell” that lets me know that they don’t know anything about Protestantism.
> I know 100% that you cannot study the ancient faith and stay “Protestant.”
Another “tell” that’s evidence you probably don’t know much about history or “the ancient faith”.
> The early church gave us the Bible, …
This ignores that the early church actually inherited authoritative books (OT) from Judaism. Jesus, the apostles and NT authors constantly quoted from authoritative Hebrew scripture. The phrase “It is written” occurs over 70 times in the New Testament. It also ignores that the 4 Gospels and much of Paul’s writings were for the most part a given and relatively undisputed by the early church.
What the early church did was discuss and debate the remainder of books to discern the Bible canon over time. What we know today as “the Bible” was in fact a process and result of centuries.
People accepting the Bible (which was canonized by them) but denying everything else…… what do you have to say about this? How do you trust your canon if you disagree with the early church?
The early church: post-Pentecost, Apostolic Era Jesus followers.
Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, these early Jesus followers were known as the Way
Convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, the Way continued to function much like a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
The early Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Jewish Saturday Sabbath, the Way met in each other’s homes on Sunday, what they called the Lord’s Day. They would fellowship, share the Lord’s Supper, have a reading from scripture, and sing hymns and pray.
The early Jesus followers would look very much like what we’d today call Messianic Judaism. After a series of Jewish Revolts starting in 66 AD, the Roman Empire ransacked and obliterated Jerusalem. In 70AD Rome destroyed the Temple, slaughtered thousands and the survivors scatter aka Diaspora. Christianity moves out to the prominently Gentile areas and the Pharisees evolve into Rabbinic Judaism.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning is a good entry level, readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church is a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
> Thoughts?
Ok, well first the day change was not nefarious. The early Jesus followers (Christians) of the Apostolic Era were known as the Way.
They were Jews who continued to follow and keep Jewish ancestral markers: Mosaic law, Temple traditions and dietary customs. They continued to go to Synagogue on the Jewish Sabbath* (Saturday) and then would meet in each other's homes on Sunday; what they called “the Lord’s Day” to baptize, hear a message from the leader, and partake in the Lord's Supper and the singing hymns.
These early Jesus followers continued to function as a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
Due to the success of the Great Commission and Paul’s successful outreach to the Gentiles, early Christianity gained an influx of Gentile proselytes. The relationship between the Jewish and Gentile Jesus followers became contentious. The new covenant Gentiles felt it was unnecessary for them to keep ancient Jewish rituals and ancestral markers. This debate resulted in the 50 AD Jerusalem Council of Acts 15, which was the beginning of the separation of Judaism and Christianity. The separation was complete after Rome ransacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple (70 AD).
In the absence of Jerusalem, outlying Gentile cities then emerged as important centers of Christianity: Antioch, Alexandria, Constantinople and Rome. New Covenant Gentile Christianity dropped the Saturday Jewish Sabbath and continued to keep it on the Lord’s Day aka Sunday.
Constantine merely adopted keeping the Sabbath on Sunday because that’s what the Christians had already been practicing for a few centuries.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church.
The “real” Sabbath is resting in the peace of the New Covenant revelation of the Gospel.
> Jerusalem was never considered to be the prime See,
False. The separation of Christianity from Judaism would only be finalized after Rome ransacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple (70 AD). At this point the outlying Gentile areas gained prominence.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church: a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
> Peter was the one that actually spoke first, thus he was the one with primacy.
False. The apostles and the elders gathered together to consider the matter. It is recorded that there were many speakers and debate, then Peter spoke. Acts 15:6-7
> And James spoke last because he yielded the speech of primacy to Peter who was his better.
False; speculation. There’s absolutely nothing about James yielding to Peter and nothing about Peter being better.
What is recorded is that James said “my judgment is …”
> They are in Heaven, your prayers are sent to Heaven.
Total dodge that didn’t even remotely address the question.
> if a judge hears the defendant’s attorney why must he also hear character witnesses?
It’s your AMA; not mine. A question for me isn’t an answer.
And respectfully I’ll respond with a sincere heart:
> I have been exploring Protestant theology and …
Well first there is no “Protestant theology”. It doesn’t exist. The term “protestant” is painting with too broad a brush to be effective in comparisons. You even remarked that many Protestant churches have completely different teachings on key doctrines.
You seem to understand that, so logically it follows that comparing Protestant theology to say Catholicism is a false equivalency (comparing two things despite the fact that there are also notable differences between them. An unreasonable comparison exaggerates similarity while ignoring important differences. False Equivalence: The Problem with Unreasonable Comparisons)
Protestantism: today Protestantism a movement, not a collective Church with collectively agreed upon beliefs, doctrines and leadership structure. Protestantism is diverse and more divided theologically and ecclesiastically than the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church or Oriental Orthodoxy. Protestants do not have a.) doctrinal unity or b.) a collectively agreed upon leadership structure with a central human authority.
If you're sincere about comparisons then you'll choose a Protestant denomination – and then make comparisons.
> Apostolic Church Teachings: The early Church and church fathers taught the doctrines that the Apostolic Churches follow today as early as 100AD to 400AD …
A common characteristic I see in these kinds of posts is the OP conveniently skips the Apostolic Era of the Church (the first 100 years of Christianity) only to jump to later centuries of the Patristic Era. If your purpose really is to genuinely explore comparisons logically – then just know that to everyone else reading along, it seems somewhat irrational that you totally ignore the early Church.
Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, these early Jesus followers were known as the Way
These early Jesus followers, convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah who founded a new covenant with the Judaic covenant system, continued to function as a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism. They continued to follow ancestral Jewish markers: go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Saturday Sabbath, the Way met with each other in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day.
The early Jesus followers would look and operate much like what we’d today consider Messianic Judaism. James assumed leadership of the Jerusalem Christian community; the apostles/leaders functioned as a group of presbyters who acted somewhat like the Judean presbyter elders of the Jewish synagogues. Due to the influx of Gentile proselytes this contentious relationship would change starting with the 50 AD Jerusalem Council of Acts 15. The separation of Christianity from Judaism would be complete after Rome ransacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple (70 AD).
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church: a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
> … before the books of the Bible were chosen by the same early church as divinely inspired and collated into the New Testament we hold today.
Gross historical inaccuracy. Patristic Era Church Fathers didn’t just sit down one day, centuries after the fact, and begin to choose official Bible books. The Hebrews already had books they considered authoritative and good for instruction. Jesus, Paul and other NT authors quoted from these. The early Church discerned the canon over time in the sense that early Christians, early home churches, early synods/councils each gathered, listed and approved a Christian bible canon over time. Many Bible books were undisputed and already accepted into the Christian canon.
Prior to Jesus, Judaism had writings they felt were uncontested inspired scripture and other writings they felt were definitely inspired and others were somewhat inspired. In the time of Jesus the Bible was compromised of the Torah (first five books of Moses), the Prophets, the Writings. They had commentaries (Midrash) on the Torah, the Law and life issues. There was no official canon as we’d define it today but we know there were authoritative Hebrew Scriptures and “outside” books they considered good for instruction.
The phrase “It is written” occurs over 70 times in the New Testament. What were Jesus, Paul and other NT authors quoting from to support their teachings? The Hebrew scriptures (generally what we’d call the Old Testament.)
Paul’s letters: the first New Testament books in final form. Paul’s letters were copied and circulated very early within the life of the apostles. 2 Peter places a high degree of authority on Paul and equates his letters to scripture. Paul’s provenance was unquestioned by the early Church and his letters are still among the most highly attested manuscripts in biblical and historical scholarship.
We know of a Biblical reference to a “book” and “parchments” in 2 Tim 4:13, which may specifically designate a notebook or perhaps a collection.
Gospels: Luke’s Gospel notes that many have undertaken to draw up an account of Jesus. He records they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. (Luke 1:1-3) The Gospel of Mark was sourced in the testimony of the apostle Peter. Some date Mark in 70AD and some, dating Peter's martyrdom to AD 65, place Mark being written before the year AD 65.
A Logia (a compilation or an anthology of extracts) collection of the Sayings of Jesus are thought to have existed before the canonical gospels were made. “It is possible that they belonged to that large group of proto-gospels which Luke mentions (Luke. 1:1) and that they continued to exist from the decade 50-60 A.D. The gospel-making movement in the first Christian centuries was more extensive and more complex that is commonly thought. The Oxyrhynchus Sayings of Jesus in Relation to the Gospel-Making Movement of the First and Second Centuries
The Q source is a hypothetical written collection of primarily Jesus’ sayings (aka logia.) Q is thought to be part of the common material found in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke but not in the Gospel of Mark. According to this hypothesis, this material was drawn from the early Church's Oral Tradition.
It’s historically inaccurate to claim the Church Fathers of the later Patristic Era sat down one day to then begin to discern, chose and collate the books of the Bible.
> Tradition: To follow on from the early Church teachings question above, there was no “Bible” we see today until the 5th century …
Gross historical inaccuracy.
> how did the early church survive for nearly 500 years without a collated Bible?
They had Hebrew scripture (the OT), Paul’s letters and the Gospels. To claim they just went by tradition is frankly absurd.
I’ll let you respond this far before I address item 3.
> If Jews are supposed to accept Christianity, Christians should accept Mormonism
Your title is a “if/then” statement. The “if” is a conditional you need to support/defend/argue.
> Christianity started as a sect of Judaism, but then morphed into something unrecognizable.
Christianity started as a sect of Judaism called the Way. These Jews were convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah and continued to function much like a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
The early Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Sabbath, the Way met in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day (aka Sunday).
The first Christians would look very much like what today we’d call Messianic Judaism. Due to the Great Commission, there was an influx of Gentiles who were “grafted into the vine”. After Rome ransacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple, Judaism evolved into Rabbinic Judaism and the Jesus followers moved to the more Gentile areas. This ensured the split between Judaism and Christianity.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning
History Of The Christian Church
> A similar thing happened to Christianity. Mormons, having largely Christian beliefs, decided that their holy books were also a continuation of their mother religion.
No. As you can see Christianity and Mormonism is not the equivalent to the Way and Judaism.
I prefer academics over YouTube:
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning is a good entry level, readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church is a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
You may also like:
Getting the Reformation Wrong: Correcting Some Misunderstandings
The Role of Indulgences in the Building of New Saint Peter’s Basilica
Your rings, hands and bejeweled robes are tarnished with a lot of blood from innocent children and saints so again, pass.
> I am very interested in becoming Catholic because it's Christ's original church
The original post-Pentecost Church was known as the Way Convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, they continued to function much like a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
The early Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Sabbath, the Way then met with each other in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day.
The early Jesus followers would look and operate very much like what we’d today call Messianic Judaism.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning is a good entry level, readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church is a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
> How is the veneration of and prayer to icons (especially statues)/saints & Mary not idolatry? How is the elevation of Mary not idolatry? Why is Mary considered sinless like Jesus? Doesn't that take away from Him? How is the veneration of the Pope not idolatry? Is there a tracable line for the Pope's authority? If so, what is it? Why does it feel so medieval and hardly hebraic?
I’ll let Catholics answer these questions for themselves. Lutherans consider Catholics to be brothers and sisters in Christ. We actually have many things in common but when determining what should be believed Lutherans ask two questions:
1. What does [insert teaching] do to the Gospel?
2. Does [insert teaching] have a scriptural basis?
My advice is to draw your own conclusions about veneration, Mary and the papacy by respectively asking the above two questions.
> I argue that in effect Martin Luther and his cohorts removed it from the Roman Catholic canon of 73 books by breaking with church tradition and local church councils.
The topic here is not about whether the Catholic canon is valid. You’re welcome to create a post on your topic and argue that. My post topic is in response to people claiming Luther removed books from the bible. Those are two different topics.
This post shows (with citations) that Luther’s Bible w/Apocrypha was completed in 1534 and that in fact none of the major Bible translations that emerged during Reformation produced a Bible of simply 66 books. (See items 1-4.)
This post shows (with citations) that later the Vatican, under the direction of the Pope, worked with the Bible Printing Societies. They mutually agreed that the Apocrypha would not be included in editions of the Bible. (See items 20-24.)
> What makes up the Old Testament for the church is the Septuagint via the old Latin translation and previous councils agreeing to it (and the magisterium).
False. See items 7-8.
> It was removed from the Canon by naming the books Apocrypha (meaning hidden book(s)) and moving it to a new section. Which are no longer Scripture but something good to read.
Noting here that Jerome, not Luther, coined the phrase “apocypha”. (See item 11.)
> And the Jewish rabbis are irrelevant because it's Christianity tradition and practice but the Jewish. The Jewish canon of Scripture is not Christian by tradition Christians followed the Septuagint because they were largely Greek speaking when Christianity was being formed and was the only accessible scripture before being translated into Latin.
To say Judaism is irrelevant to Christianity’s tradition is naïve. The Bible is steeped in Judaism. The Old Testament saints listed in Hebrews 11 were Jews. Jesus, Joseph, Mary and the apostles were Jews. The New Testament authors, with the exception of Luke, were Jews.
The early post-Pentecost Jesus followers were Jews who were convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah. These continued to function much like a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
The early Jesus followers (known as the Way) continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Saturday Sabbath, the Way met in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day.
To say the Jews are irrelevant is naïve.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church: comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
> It doesn't matter what Jerome thought or did ultimately was the Church who had to decide what was in or out of the canon. They were already part of the canon at the time and he did not have the power to remove them. So we didn't.
It mattered what Jerome thought and did; Jerome was the leading scholar of his era and as such the Pope put his confidence in Jerome. “In the Latin Church, all through the Middle Ages [5th – 15th century] we find evidence of hesitation about the character of the deuterocanonicals.” (See item 13.)
> It never really matter what Jerome thought. What was important was the decision of the church. Only the church has the authority to decide what is Canon or not. And according to the church back then (and now) they are good for establishing doctrine.
What Jerome thought mattered and the God is the authority.
> Just like Jerome his opinion doesn't matter. Only the Church can decide and has the authority to.
What Jerome thought mattered and the God is the authority.
> Citation needed. Please give more evidence.
You ignored the citations thus far so sorry but this seems rather gratuitous.
> Which tells you that the Old Testament is based off of Vetus Latina (old Latin Bible) which was translated from the Septuagint.
False. (See items 8-10.) The fact that the Council of Trent felt a need to decree an official Catholic Canon is in fact strong evidence that prior to that there was hesitation about the Apocrypha. (See item 13.)
> But Luther did essentially by making the Apocrypha he removed them from the Canon.
Again you attempt to subvert the topic of this post. The topic here is not about whether the Catholic canon is valid.
> Can you give a source on the Pope removed the deutero-canonical (this makes no sense)?
Interesting. You literally copy/pasted my response, put it in bold, and then changed what I said. I didn’t say the Pope removed Pope removed the deutero-canonicals. I wrote, “Under the Pope’s direction, the Catholic Church entered an agreement with the Bible Printing Societies that the deutero-canonical books (Apocrypha) will not be included in every edition of the common Bible but appear in a separate section.
> P.S. the Eastern Orthodox have the various canon within the Communion up to 80. That's an example of the church deciding not individuals. P.S.S. the 66 book canon is fine for the Protestants because they're separate churches, Roman Catholic 73 is fine, Eastern Orthodox up to 80 is fine. Because there Church decided.
You seem to desperately want to argue the canon. Again I recommend you create a post and argue your topic.
> But I am curious to hear your opinion, because I believe knowing the original Christian is very important to the legacy and history?
The question mark creates a passive and confusing statement/question.
After Saul’s (Paul) conversion Barnabas went to Tarsus to look for Saul, “... and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. For a whole year they met with the church and taught a great many people. And in Antioch the disciples were first called Christians.”
> I personally lean towards St Peter because he more or less set the foundation of Christianity in place and converted Rome making Christianity a practical and codified religion. Modern Christianity can still be traced back to Peter
I’m not convinced. The history of early Christianity is not at all as scarce as you say and the New Testament shows it first functioned as a sect within Judaism.
1. Jesus, Joseph and Mary were Jews; the apostles, disciples and early Jesus followers were Jews.
2. Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, these early Jesus followers were known as the Way
3. The Jesus followers of the Way were the people Saul was persecuting.
4. These, convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, continued to function much like a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
5. The early Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Saturday Sabbath, the Way met in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day.
The early Jesus followers would look and operate much like what today we’d call Messianic Judaism.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning is a good entry level, readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church is a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
> and which one Jesus (and his original followers) from 2000 years ago would feel most at home today.
Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, these early Jesus followers were known as the Way
Convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, the early Jesus followers continued to function much like a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
The early Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Saturday Sabbath, the Way met in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day.
The early Jesus followers would look and operate much like what today we’d call Messianic Judaism.
I highly recommend:
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a good entry level, readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church: a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church. I purchased the Kindle edition.
> Lol is it normal for you to take the most extreme understanding of something said to you?
Please don’t address me personally in an attempt to undermine my character or personal attributes as a way to discredit me. The sub frowns on this. Thanks.
> I'm saying that they do not represent the original Church.
Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, these early Jesus followers were known as the Way
Convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, the early Jesus followers continued to function much like a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
The early Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Saturday Sabbath, the Way met in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day.
The early Jesus followers would look and operate much like what today we’d call Messianic Judaism.
I highly recommend:
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a good entry level, readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church: a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church. I purchased the Kindle edition.
I flirted with Catholicism when I moved away from my hometown and home church (LCMS). As an artist the allure was the art, architecture and "smells and bells".
> how can I stop half-converting, so to speak, and avoid this happening again?
What cured me was digging into Church History and the claims of Catholicism:
1. The Catholic Church is the one true Church founded over 2,000 years ago by Jesus Christ.
No. Jesus left no organization or institution outside of his disciples. Jesus, Joseph and Mary were Jews; the apostles, disciples and early Jesus followers were Jews. Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, the early Jesus followers were known as the Way
Convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, the Way continued to function much like a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism. The early Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Saturday Sabbath, the Way met in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day.
Hardly Catholicism. In fact it didn’t look or operate anything like Roman Catholicism. It would be much closer to what today we’d call Messianic Judaism. Not to mention that the absolute last thing the apostles would have considered would be patterning their leadership structure to look like that of Rome – who had just murdered Jesus and was systematically martyring their family and friends.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a good entry level, readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church: a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
2. Matthew 16:18 is key to understanding Christ’s intent to pass on the authority to lead the Church to Peter and the apostles. Christ tells Peter that he is the rock on which He will build His church.
No. In the teaching in Matthew 16 the Father reveals to the disciples who Jesus is – not who Peter is. The revelation from the Father was that Jesus was the Son of the living God. Peter was blessed to have this revelation just as Mary was blessed to have hers at the Annunciation and John the Baptist to have his at Jesus’ baptism.
But Jesus gave Peter the keys in this teaching right? Yes and Jesus gave them to the other disciples as well, “... he (Jesus) breathed on them (the disciples) and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.” John 20:22-23 This harmonizes that in this teaching Peter represented the church and the disciples.
After this teaching does anyone ever, even one time, describe Peter as the rock? No. Both Peter and Paul record that Peter’s ministry was to the circumcised aka Jews. Peter, James, John and others are collectively referred to as “esteemed leaders” and “pillars”.
Does Peter ever, even one time, describe himself as the Rock? No, not once. Peter describes himself as an apostle (1 Peter 1:1), a servant, (2 Peter 1:1) and fellow elder 1 Peter 5:1. Peter is never ever, not even one time, confused about his commission or role.
How does Peter describe Jesus? A chosen/precious cornerstone, the stone the builders rejected and a stumbling stone and a rock that makes them fall. (1 Peter 2:4-8 quoting Isaiah 28:16, Psalm 118:22, Isaiah 8:14)
Are there other rock references to God/Jesus in the Old Testament aka “typology”? Yes:
“... look to the rock from which you were hewn” Isaiah 51:1
“You were unmindful of the Rock that bore you, you forgot the God who gave you birth.” Deuteronomy 32:18
Moses strikes the rock for water (Exodus 17:6), Moses stands on the rock and hides behind the rock to view God’s glory/goodness. Exodus 33:17-23, Numbers 10:10-11
All these are “types” referring to Jesus Christ.
What about the Apostolic Era after Pentecost? Peter was Pope right? No. (See the Way above.) We know their leadership functioned as a group of presbyters much like the presbyters of the Jewish synagogue. We know Peter, James and John are collectively referred to as “esteemed leaders” and “Pillars” (Galatians 2:2 & 2:9) and we know James the Just –not Peter – presided over the Jerusalem Council. We know James made a final judgment on the matter of the Gentiles in Acts 15.
We know Eusebius Records James the Just was elected bishop of Jerusalem (the home church) because, “Peter, James and John did not strive for honor.” Church History Book II, chp 1.2 and 1.3
There’s no evidence that Peter was commissioned otherwise and no evidence he operated as an imperial magistrate. We know Jesus restored Peter and commissions him to “tend my lambs” and “shepherd my sheep.” (John 21:15-17) Peter is not confused about his commission as apostolos to the circumcised aka Jews. Paul understands that Peter was entrusted to the circumcised aka Jews.
Peter didn’t anoint Paul; in Paul’s vision Jesus instead sent him to Ananias. It would be years later when the pillars James, Peter and John (again – not just Peter) gave Paul and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship.
What about the Patristic Era directly after the apostles? Clement I, the 3rd bishop of Rome, wrote a letter to Corinth reasserting the authority of the local bishops/elders/presbyters as rulers of the church on the ground that the Apostles had appointed such. The First Epistle Of Clement To The Corinthians, Chp 44
This harmonizes with the New Testament and Apostolic Era.
What about later? Did Augustine believe Peter was the rock? No. Augustine taught: Peter from the rock; not the rock from Peter. Augustine’s allegiance was to the bishop of Rome because he believed Peter was privileged in this teaching to represent the church. Augustine felt Peter’s pre–eminence was not in being the “rock” but in representing the disciples/church in this teaching. (John Rotelle, The Works of Saint Augustine, Sermons, III/8, On the Saints, Sermon 295.1-3) “Christ is the rock, Peter is the Christian people. … [Jesus teaches] I will build thee upon Myself, not Myself upon Thee.” (Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Volume VI, St. Augustine, Sermon XXVI.1-4) “For petra (rock) is not derived from Peter, but Peter from petra; just as Christ is not called so from the Christian, but the Christian from Christ.” “... in this representation Christ is to be understood as the Rock, Peter as the Church.” (Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Volume VII, St. Augustine, On the Gospel of John, Tractate 124.5)
But the Pope is the Vicar of Christ right? Actually the New Testament reveals the Holy Spirit is the vicar of Christ. Jesus told his disciples, “if I do not go away, the parakletos (advocate, intercessor, comforter, helper) will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you” John 16:7.
Tertullian (3rd century) used the phrase to describe the office of the Holy Spirit; He felt the Lord sent the Paraclete because human mediocrity was unable to take in all things at once. This is why Jesus could instruct Saul (Paul) to go to the house of Judas in Damascus for Ananias (via the HS) to anoint Paul and restore his sight there. God’s earthly representative, after Jesus ascends, is the Holy Spirit.
The Bible reveals God and Christ’s teaching n Matthew reveals Jesus as the Messiah, the Son of the living God. God’s church (people called out to congregate) is built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.” Ephesians 2:19-22. The evidence is overwhelming and it harmonizes scripture and history.
Claiming Peter is the rock is problematic requiring dubious apologetics that only serves to exponentially confuse other doctrines and create more confusion.
> I didn't expect that to be a simple Google/copy/paste... I was just messing with ya.
Lol, you got me! You ruffled my history feathers!
> So I'm assuming that you opted against Catholicism...
As an artist I was viscerally drawn to the “smells and bells”, art and architecture. Unfortunately scripture/history didn’t match the claims and I couldn’t in good conscience make the switch.
> did the history or doctrine sway your opinion?
A hard re-reading of the book of Acts and Galatians, and simultaneously creating a timeline list of events, was the “gateway” drug that lead me to The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning. That led to the more comprehensive/academic 8 volume History Of The Christian Church (I got the Kindle edition on a sweet sale.).
Frankly the scriptural evidence supported by the historical facts is overwhelmingly against Jesus founding Roman Catholicism. To relegate the issue to one single verse in Matthew 16 is frankly absurd.
I’ll add this: Lutherans consider Catholics to be brothers and sisters in Christ. I’m not ignoring that unfair accusations and hostility exist on each side but the reality is Lutherans and Catholics agree on much. Personally I’d love nothing more than reconciliation. In that spirit I do my best to support points of disagreement positively with scripture/history. Challenges to Catholic authority aren’t typically well received on Reddit but my hope is that you please respect that I am not here saying Catholics aren’t Christians, and I’m not attacking Catholics.
These are certainly points of contention but not unfairly contentious. Peace.
> So to me it sounds like early Christians and certainly the disciples were closer to Messianic Jews, a Jewish sect, than what we consider Christians to be today.
Correct. This is both historically and scripturally supported:
1. Jesus, Joseph and Mary were Jews; the apostles, disciples and early Jesus followers were Jews.
2. Jesus left no organization or institution outside of his disciples.
3. Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, the early Jesus followers were known as the Way.
4. These, convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, continued to function much like a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
5. The early Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Saturday Sabbath, the Way met in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day.
The early Jesus followers would look and operate much closer to what today we’d call Messianic Judaism.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a good entry level, readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church: a more comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
6. Jesus is quoted as saying he, was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”.
7. Jesus is quoted as commissioning his disciples to “make disciples of all nations” aka the Great Commission
8. The New Testament teaches that Jesus was sent to Jews and the apostles (Greek apostolos, sent ones) were sent to the world Paul later corroborates that the gospel is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek (Gentile).
> So my question is, without personal biases, can anyone knowledgeable on the subject tell me why the “Romanization” of Christianity took place and we separated ourselves from being more Jewish in our approach to honoring and worshiping our God and savior Jesus?
Sure.
9. James, Peter, John and others continued working as a group of presbyters acting somewhat like the Judean presbyter elders of the Jewish synagogues. There was no central authority, no standard style of organization at the local level, no dedicated church buildings or cathedrals. They assumed Jesus would come back in their lifetime and there was no necessity for authority, organization or dedicated places of worship. The body of believers during the Apostolic Age did not entertain the primacy of one apostle, presbyter or bishop. Paul affirms that James, Peter and John were “esteemed leaders” and “pillars”.
10. James the brother of Jesus appears as the principal authority and leader of the home church of Jerusalem. Eusebius later records this was on account of Peter, James (the other James) and John did not strive for honor. Church History Book II, chp 1.2 and 1.3
11. As a result of the Great Commission, and Paul’s successful ministry to the Gentiles, we see an influx of new Gentile proselytes (converts). Here we find in Antioch the disciples were first called Christians.
12. Some Jews (Pharisees) travelled to Antioch and were teaching “the brothers” (aka Gentile proselytes) must be circumcised in order to be saved. Paul travels to Jerusalem and the Jerusalem Council (50 AD) is called to settle the matter of Gentile Jesus followers. James presides and after some deliberation James makes the final judgment that they should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God and all agreed to not require them to be circumcised.
50 AD – The Jerusalem Council indicates the beginning of the separation of Christianity from Judaism.
62 AD – High Priest Ananus charges James (brother of Jesus) of transgressing the Law; James executed in Jerusalem.
64-68AD – Peter and Paul martyred.
66-73AD – The Great Revolt (Judea/Galilee revolt against Rome.)
The Roman Empire retaliates from the Jewish Revolts with a vengeance and begins a systematic campaign to obliterate Jewish Jerusalem. Rome barricades Jerusalem, famine ensues and Jerusalem falls. Titus orders Jerusalem razed, slaughters thousands, ransacks the Temple artifacts and destroys the Temple. The Jews scatter (diaspora), the Levitical priesthood ceases, the Sadducees (Temple sect) vanish and sacrifices come to an immediate halt.
73 AD – Qumran falls and the Zealots are crushed at Masada ending the revolt. After the Jewish Revolts and the destruction of the Temple, Pharisaic Judaism goes into exile and evolves into Rabbinic Judaism.
Note: Christianity now shifts from Jerusalem to the predominately Gentile centers of: Antioch, Alexandria and Rome each having it’s own bishop/presbyters/elders. The separation between Christianity and Judaism is complete.
90AD – After the deaths of all the Apostles, now their students/disciples are looked to for guidance. After a bishop scuffling incident in Corinth, Clement I (88-99AD – bishop of Rome) writes letter to the Corinth church and reasserts the authority of the local bishops/elders/presbyters as rulers of the church on the ground that the Apostles had appointed such. The First Epistle Of Clement To The Corinthians, Chp 44
132-136 AD – Bar Kokhba revolt, last Jewish-Roman war: Bar Kokhba defeated, emperor bars Jews from Jerusalem and (again) obliterates Jewish Jerusalem.
313 AD – Edict of Milan: Constantine and Licinius agree to treat Christians benevolently within the Roman Empire. the Edict of Milan was in fact not really an edict but a decree/proclamation that established religious toleration over the Roman Empire much like America’s religious clauses. (The subject’s under Constantine already enjoyed religious toleration. Prior to Milan Constantine had become the first Roman emperor to identify with Christians.) The “edict” was in fact an agreement to treat Christians benevolently within the entire Roman Empire; it was a political olive branch between east and west (Constantine & Licinius) to strengthen the general welfare of the Empire.
The toleration decreed at Milan did not last long, and it didn’t often prevail in later centuries.
325 AD – Roman Emperor Constantine convenes Council of Nicaea to resolve difference in Christian beliefs; Constantine presides over the council but defers to the decisions of the bishops.
380 AD –Edict of Thessalonica: Nicene Christianity becomes the state religion of the Roman Empire. Mobilized under orthodoxy, the previous generation of Jewish Christians (Jesus followers/the Way) become the measure of heresy.
422 AD – Juvenal, bishop of Jerusalem, wants to make Jerusalem into a Patriarchate. Leo I, bishop of Rome, opposes it and appeals to Roman Emperor Valentinian III. Leo obtains a decree (June 6, 445) recognizing the primacy of the bishop of Rome and providing for the forcible extradition of any bishop who refused to answer a summons to Rome.
445 AD – Rome under constant siege, edict of 445 strengthens Rome’s socio-economical and political standing against a regular onslaught of opposition. Roman Emperor Valentinian III, faced with dismemberment of the Western Empire, issues a Roman Decree assigning the bishop of Rome supremacy over the provincial churches and founds the Roman Catholic Church and the Papacy.
> Furthermore would it be considered a problem if a Christian were to observe the proper Sabbath of the commandments and other Jewish holidays given to us by the Lord?
You’ll have to support the “proper” Sabbath.
> I was told that Catholicism is the only church that can save you.
That’s basically the claim from item #834 I’m the Catholic Catechism
First let me share that I’m NOT attacking Catholicism and I’m not saying Catholics aren’t Christian. Lutherans consider Catholics brothers and sisters in Christ.
I’ll get downvoted for replying to you with supported facts but here goes:
> Meaning that it's possible to be saved outside of the church, but not for me because I'm actively avoiding joining the church.
I too am aware of Catholicism’s claims but am actively avoiding joining the church.
> What evidence is there to support this claim?
I didn’t find any. Any “evidence” Catholicism will present will come from later centuries basically after Roman decrees declared they were in primacy and authority over all.
1. Jesus, Joseph and Mary were Jews; the apostles, disciples and early Jesus followers were Jews.
2. Based on Jesus’ saying, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, these early Jesus followers were known as the Way
3. These, convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, continued to function much like a reform sect within Judaism.
4. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
5. The early Jesus followers continued to go to the Jewish synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws.
5. Keeping the Saturday Sabbath, the Way met in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day.
6. This is not Roman Catholicism. I’m fact the early Jesus followers would look and operate nothing like Roman Catholicism. It would be much closer to what we’d call Messianic Judaism. The absolute last thing the apostles would have done is base their leadership structure to look like Rome who had just crucified Jesus and was systematically killing their family and friends.
7. Due to Great Commission and the influx of Gentiles the Jewish Jerusalem believers felt the Gentiles should follow Jewish cultural markers. The Jerusalem Council of 50AD was called to settle the matter.
8. James, the leader of the home church (not Peter) presides and makes a final judgment that they would not force Gentiles to follow Jewish cultural markers.
62 AD – High Priest Ananus charges James of transgressing the Law; James executed in Jerusalem.
64AD – Peter martyred
68AD – Paul martyred
66-73AD – The Great Revolt (Judea/Galilee revolt against Rome.) As a result the Roman Empire systematically raided/ransacked/obliterated Jerusalem and slaughters thousands. Rome ransacks the Temple, takes artifacts and destroys the Temple.
9. James, Peter and Paul are dead, the Temple is destroyed and Jerusalem falls.
10. The split between Christianity and Judaism is final; Gentile Christianity now gains strength in outlying areas of Alexandria, Antioch and Rome.
313AD Edict of Milan – Rome agrees to treat Christians benevolently.
380AD — edict decrees Nicene Christianity the state religion of the Roman Empire; ensuing factions now began vying for power resulting in splits and schisms.
445AD — Juvenal, the bishop of Jerusalem, wanted to make Jerusalem into a Patriarchate (designating the office and jurisdiction of an ecclesiastical patriarch) but Leo I bishop of Rome opposed it. Leo appealed to Roman Emperor Valentinian III for support and obtained a decree Decree on Papal Power 445 that recognized the primacy of the bishop of Rome and provided for the forcible extradition of any bishop who refused to answer a summons to Rome.
11. At this time the Roman Empire was under constant siege and Roman Emperor Valentinian III (425 to 455) was faced with the dismemberment of the Western Empire. The 445 edict strengthened Rome’s socio-economical and political standing against a regular onslaught of opposition.
12. At this point in history we find the primacy of Rome given official recognition. EWTN, Leo the Great Pope Doctor of the Church. Leo I is the first to officially claim universal jurisdiction over the worldwide Church thus initiating the rise of the papacy – a uniquely Roman structure — based on Roman imperialism and aristocracy.
Any “evidence” Catholicism will make for primacy and universal jurisdiction over the worldwide Church will come from these later centuries.
Any biblical “evidence” they present will be based solely on two words in a cherry picked Bible verse (Matthew 16.) I call this the “rock talk”. For my view on that see my previous post Matthew 16: the Father reveals Jesus — not Peter
> Is being Catholic the only way to be saved?
No. I’m not convinced.
> Im curious to know what you think Peter was, if not the first leader of the church.
Peter is not confused about his commission as apostolos to the circumcised aka Jews. Paul understands that he was entrusted to preach the Gospel to the Gentiles and Paul understands that Peter was entrusted to the circumcised aka Jews.
Believing Jesus was the Jewish Messiah early Jesus followers functioned as a reform sect under Judaism called the Way.
There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism. The Way kept the (Saturday) Sabbath, continued to go to synagogue, followed Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. They met together as a group on the Lord’s Day aka Sunday.
The apostolic Christians would look very much like Messianic Jews.
We know their leadership functioned as a group of presbyters much like the presbyters of the Jewish synagogue. We know Peter, James and John are collectively referred to as “esteemed leaders” and “Pillars” (Galatians 2:2 & 2:9) and we know James the Just (not Peter) presided over the Jerusalem Council.
We know James made a final judgment on the matter of the Gentiles in Acts 15. Why? Eusebius Records James the Just was elected bishop of Jerusalem (the home church) because, “Peter, James and John did not strive for honor.” Church History Book II, chp 1.2 and 1.3
There’s no evidence that Peter was commissioned otherwise and no evidence he operated as an imperial magistrate. Reasonably the last thing the apostles would have thought to do is set up their leadership structure to function like the Romans who had just murdered Jesus and were systematically martyring their friends and family.
We know Jesus restored Peter and commissions him to “tend my lambs” and “shepherd my sheep.” (John 21:15-17)
Peter didn’t anoint Paul; in Paul’s vision Jesus instead sent him to Ananias. It would be years later when the pillars James, Peter and John (again, not just Peter) gave Paul and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship.
What about the Patristic Era, after the apostles? Clement I, the 3rd bishop of Rome, wrote a letter to Corinth reasserting the authority of the local bishops/elders/presbyters as rulers of the church on the ground that the Apostles had appointed such. The First Epistle Of Clement To The Corinthians, Chp 44
All this harmonizes the New Testament and the Apostolic era.
For further reading see:
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning is a good entry level, readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church is a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church (I got the 1.99 Kindle version.)
> LMAO, you have no idea what Christianity was like in the beginning!
We actually have a very good picture of what Christianity was like in the beginning based on scripture and the historical record:
0-33AD – Jesus, Joseph and Mary were Jews – not Catholic. Jesus plainly said he was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”.
33-50AD – The apostles, disciples and early Jesus followers were Jews. Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, these early Jesus followers were known as the Way These were convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah. They continued to function much like a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism. The early Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Sabbath, the Way met in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day (aka Sunday).
The New Testament teaches that Jesus was sent to Jews, the apostles (Greek apostolos, sent ones) were sent to the world, and later Paul corroborates that the gospel is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek (Gentile). All the above harmonizes scripture. Claiming Jesus founded Roman Catholicism creates disharmony and requires Olympian apologetics to reconcile.
Catholics don’t do those things; Catholics would be against those things.
50AD – Jerusalem Council. The Jerusalem believers thought the new Gentile believers should get circumcised because they wanted them to totally convert to Judaism. Why would Catholics want Gentiles to get circumcised and convert to Judaism? That makes no sense. They were actually Messianic Jews who wanted Gentiles to observe their Jewish ancestral markers.
In scripture Peter, James, John and others are collectively referred to as “esteemed leaders” and “pillars”.
Eusebius records that James the Just was elected bishop on account of the excellence of his virtue – and because Peter, James and John did not strive for honor. Church History Book II, chp 1.2 and 1.3 James, Peter, John and other esteemed leaders actually functioned as a group of presbyters following the model of the Judean presbyter elders of the Jewish synagogues.
62 AD –James is executed in Jerusalem, Peter and Paul are martyred between 64-68AD
66AD – The Great Revolt (Judea/Galilee revolt against Rome.) The Roman Empire retaliates from the Jewish Revolts with a vengeance and begins a systematic campaign to obliterate Jewish Jerusalem. Rome barricades Jerusalem, famine ensues and Jerusalem falls.
70AD – Titus orders Jerusalem razed, slaughters thousands, ransacks the Temple artifacts and destroys the Temple. The Jews scatter (diaspora), the Levitical priesthood ceases, the Sadducees (Temple sect) vanish and sacrifices come to an immediate halt. Qumran falls and the Zealots are crushed at Masada (73AD) ending the revolt.
A: After the destruction of the Temple: Temple sects vanish, what’s left (Pharisaic Judaism) evolves into Rabbinic Judaism.
B: James is dead so Christianity shifts from it’s leadership center in Jerusalem to the outlying Gentile areas of Antioch, Alexandria, Constantinople and Rome each having it’s own bishop/presbyters/elders.
100AD – After the turn of the century a letter is sent from Rome to Corinth to reassert the authority of the local bishops/elders/presbyters as rulers of the church on the ground that the Apostles had appointed such. The First Epistle Of Clement To The Corinthians, Chp 44 This letter is unsigned but later is attributed to Clement. The letter supports that James, Peter, John and other esteemed leaders functioned as a group of presbyters following the model of the Judean presbyter elders of the Jewish synagogues.
No respectable scholar of antiquity or history believes Christianity to this point is Catholic or that there’s a monarchical ruler I primacy and authority over all. The evidence against that is frankly overwhelming.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning
History Of The Christian Church is a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
Catholics desperately want to skip scripture/history from 33AD to 100AD to instead jump straight to later centuries. Why is that?
> You’re right, the division between those who demanded adherence to the Jewish law and those who didn’t was there in the beginning of the church.
Correct.
> However that was addressed, and there are no division existing from that since mended division.
False. It was addressed at the Jerusalem Council but the fact is it resulted in a division between Judaism and Christianity; up to this point in time this division is not mended.
The split between Judaism and Christianity was for the most part finalized in 70AD when the Roman Empire orders Jerusalem razed, slaughters thousands, ransacks the Temple artifacts and destroys the Temple.
> What other division between two legitimately Christian Churches occurred other than those two which weren’t reconciled before the reformation(or at least before the Hussites)
Early Christian theologians produce volumes upon volumes of theological/apologetic writings to debate/discern/determine and correct interpretations and to refute arguments against opposing factions. The earliest controversies were Christological in nature and related to Jesus’ divinity/humanity. We see: Docetism, Arianism, Gnostics and Marcionites and more.
Marcionist schism 150AD
Montanist Schism 156 AD
Monarchianist schism 100-200 AD
Sabellianist/Patripassianist schism 200AD
Donatist schism 300-500 AD
Melitian Schism 306-311AD
Council of Nicaea 325AD called to investigate the trouble brought about by the Arian controversy (Arianism) in the Greek-speaking east and to resolve disagreements from within the Church of Alexandria over the nature of the Son in his relationship to the Father. The suppression of the Melitian schism, an early breakaway sect, was another important matter that came before the Council of Nicaea.
Arian Schism 325 AD
Quartodecimanist schism 325 AD
Macedonian Schism 342AD
Luciferian Schism 355AD
Appolinarist Schism 381AD
Collyridianist Schism 376AD
Audianist Schism 380AD
380AD Roman edict decrees Nicene Christianity the state religion of the Roman Empire; ensuing factions vy for power resulting in more splits and schisma.
431AD Council of Ephesus, we see Nestorianism and the Assyrian Church of the East split.
Nestorian Schism 431AD The schism rose out of a Christological dispute, notably involving Cyril (Patriarch of Alexandria) and Nestorius (Patriarch of Constantinople). The First Council of Ephesus in 431 and the Council of Chalcedon in 451 condemned Nestorius and his doctrine, which emphasized the radical distinctness between Christ's human and divine natures. Condemned as heretical at the Council of Ephesus (431AD) and again at 451 Council of Chalcedon.
445AD Juvenal, the bishop of Jerusalem, wanted to make Jerusalem into a Patriarchate (designating the office and jurisdiction of an ecclesiastical patriarch) but Leo I bishop of Rome opposed it. Leo 1 appealed to Roman Emperor Valentinian III for support and obtained a decree Decree on Papal Power 445 that recognized the primacy of the bishop of Rome and provided for the forcible extradition of any bishop who refused to answer a summons to Rome.
At this time the Roman Empire was under constant siege and Roman Emperor Valentinian III (425 to 455) was faced with the dismemberment of the Western Empire. The 445 edict strengthened Rome’s socio-economical and political standing against a regular onslaught of opposition and here we find the primacy of Rome given official recognition. EWTN, Leo the Great Pope Doctor of the Church. Leo I is the first to officially claim universal jurisdiction over the worldwide Church thus initiating the rise of the papacy – a uniquely Roman structure based on imperialism and aristocracy.
451AD Oriental Orthodoxy split over the Council of Chalcedon (451AD).
Eutychian Schism 451AD
Monophysite Schism 451AD
Acacien Schism 484AD
Schism of the Three Chapters 553AD
600AD Communication between the Greek East and the Latin West by the 600s had become dangerous and practically ceased.
Armenian Apostolic Schism 610AD
Monothelitist Schism 629AD
First Iconoclast Schism 787AD
800AD Phtian Schism due to controversy between Eastern (Byzantine, later Orthodox) and Western (Latin, Roman Catholic) Christianity. After the fall of the Western Roman Empire Pope Leo III crowned Charlemagne Emperor reviving the title of Emperor. The concept of translatio imperii (sovereign ruler/supreme power) is revived from the ancient emperors of Rome. (This inaugurates the beginning of the Holy Roman Empire. Emperors in Western and Central Europe were now crowned by a Pope (the term "Holy Roman Empire" would be officially adopted from 1254 onward.)
Second Iconoclast Schism 814AD
1054AD The Great Schism: The cracks and fissures in Christianity evident as early as the fourth century led to the Great Schism. We see the Gregorian Reform movement in the 11th century and the Eastern churches viewed Rome’s understanding of the nature of episcopal power as being in direct opposition to the Church’s essentially conciliar structure and thus saw the two ecclesiologies as mutually antithetical.
Enter: Ireland, Anglo-Saxons (English), Netherlands, Germany, Scandinavia, Serbs and Blugarians = turmoil with Roman Empiricism.
1184AD Enter the Inquisitions with Roman Catholicism vs many movements throughout Europe considered apostate/heretical to Catholicism.
1378-1416AD The Western Schism finds multiple claimants to the See of Rome and conflict concerning the rightful holder of the papacy. In 1309 the papacy moves to France but returns to Rome in 1378 causing strife between Italian and French factions resulting in multiple Popes with two sets of cardinals. A 1409 council declared both existing popes to be schismatic and appointed a new one. But the existing popes refused to resign and now there were three papal claimants. Another council in 1414 cleans house and cleared the field of popes and antipopes and elected a Pope.
1517 Reformation
> I thought it is pretty interesting to see how the early Church did things during the time of the Apostles. Let me know what you think in the comments.
Q: When did Hippolytus live?
A: Hippolytus (170–235 AD)
So the phrases “early Christian church” and “during the time of the Apostles” isn’t really accurate.
Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, the early Jesus followers were known as the Way
These, convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, continued to function much like a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
As such the early Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Sabbath.
Because they kept the Jewish sabbath the Way then met in each other’s homes on Sunday what they called the Lord’s Day.
The early Jesus followers would look and operate somewhat like what we’d perhaps today call Messianic Judaism.
Jesus is quoted as saying he, was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”. He commissioned his disciples to “make disciples of all nations” aka the Great Commission
The New Testament teaches that Jesus was sent to Jews, the apostles (Greek apostolos, sent ones) were sent to the world, and later Paul corroborates that the gospel is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek (Gentile).
Jesus’ final instructions to his disciples were for them to wait for power from the Holy Spirit, because at that point, “… you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
When Jerusalem Jews rebelled against Rome in 64AD Rome retaliated with a vengeance and Jerusalem fell to Roman oppression in 70-73AD. As a result Gentile Christianity was dispersed to more Gentile cities of Antioch, Alexandria and Rome.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning is a good entry level, readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church is a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
By the second century “local” traditions became “provincial” and very large and important churches (Antioch, Alexandria and Rome) vied for a corresponding ascendency over the smaller capitals within their respective areas. In the 2nd century we find Rome writing to Corinth (letters attributed to Clement) asking them to follow their local elders/bishops as the apostles had dictated)
So Hippolytus would be writing in the Patristic Era — not the Apostolic Era.
In the ensuing centuries the church grew, and it’s polity became more and more intertwined with local politics, power over all Christendom becomes an issue. They began to debate issues like the human vs divine nature of Jesus and when to celebrate Easter.
Enter Constantine calling the Council of Nicaea (325AD) wanting a more centralized form of Christianity with agreements on doctrine.
tl:dr: saying “early Christian church” and “during the time of the Apostles”, in relationship to Hippolytus (170–235 AD), isn’t historically accurate.
1. Jesus left no organization or institution outside of his disciples.
2. Jesus, Joseph and Mary were Jews; the apostles, disciples and early Jesus followers were Jews.
3. Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, these early Jesus followers were known as the Way
4. These, convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, continued to function much like a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
5. The early Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Sabbath, the Way met in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day (aka Sunday).
The early Jesus followers would look and operate much like what we’d today call Messianic Judaism.
6. Jesus is quoted as saying he, was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”.
7. Jesus is quoted as commissioning his disciples to “make disciples of all nations” aka the Great Commission
The New Testament teaches that Jesus was sent to Jews, the apostles (Greek apostolos, sent ones) were sent to the world, and later Paul corroborates that the gospel is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek (Gentile).
8. Scripture records Jesus’ final instructions to his disciples were for them to wait for power from the Holy Spirit, because at that point, “… you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” So they waited.
When Jerusalem fell to Roman oppression in 70AD Christianity became more and more Gentile and later Romanized. In the ensuing centuries the Roman state church wanted to distinguish itself and distance themselves from its early Jewish roots.
All the above harmonizes scripture and historical facts.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning is a good entry level, readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church is a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
Protestant vs Catholic
The term “protestant” paints with too broad a brush to be effective in comparisons.
A false equivalence is comparing two things despite the fact that there are also notable differences between them. It’s an unreasonable comparison that exaggerates differences in order to make ones positions seem more reasonable. False Equivalence: The Problem with Unreasonable Comparisons
Protestantism is a movement within Christianity; not a Church with collectively agreed upon beliefs and doctrines. Protestantism is diverse and more divided theologically and ecclesiastically than the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church or Oriental Orthodoxy.
> It seems that for most of history since the death of Jesus, at least until the 1500s, Christendom remained largely united.
Gross historical inaccuracy. Jesus, Joseph and Mary were Jews; the apostles, disciples and early Jesus followers were Jews.
Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, these early Jesus followers were known as the Way
These, convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, continued to function much like a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
The early Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Sabbath, the Way met in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day (aka Sunday).
The early Jesus followers would look and operate nothing like Catholicism; in fact it would be much closer to what we’d call Messianic Judaism.
Jesus is quoted as commissioning his disciples to “make disciples of all nations” aka the Great Commission The apostles (Greek apostolos, sent ones) were sent to the world, and later after Paul’s conversion and successful missions, we see an influx Gentiles.
Due to the influx of Gentile (non-Jews) converts the Jewish Jerusalem believers felt the Gentiles should wholly convert to Judaism. A council of leaders gathered in approximately 50AD to settle the matter. James, the leader of the home church in Jerusalem, makes a judgment that they would not force Gentiles to convert.
This is the start of the first split in Christianity. It’s finalized when the Roman Empire orders Jerusalem razed, slaughters thousands, ransacks the Temple artifacts and destroys the Temple.
That’s just the history of the first split in Christianity; it would continue to split and schism throughout its history. That’s the reason for all the councils. This got long but I can add another timeline of events from this point to the Reformation if you like.
> Starting with early Church fathers ... at the end of the day they still considered themselves "Catholic" (in this case universal) or rather part of the Church of Christ.
The early Church fathers may have perhaps considered themselves ~~"Catholic"~~ catholic (small “c” aka universal) but their perception of catholic would be much different than today’s contemporary definitions.
This is long so I’ll stop and allow you to respond this far.
> Scripture has Jesus himself saying, "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6)
It does. In relation to the debate topic: note here no implication of religion (Christian or a specific religious tribe). This verse teaches that Jesus is the way, a path or a means to a destination aka the Father.
Jesus, Joseph and Mary were Jews; the apostles, disciples and early Jesus followers were Jews. Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, these early Jesus followers were known as the Way
These, convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, continued to function much like a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
These early Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Sabbath, the Way met in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day (aka Sunday).
The early Jesus followers would look and operate nothing like Roman Catholicism; in fact it would be much closer to what we’d call Messianic Judaism.
Hebrews 11 is considered by Christians to be the great faith chapter. In it the author lists Old Testament (old covenant) people from the nation of Israel. The strong implication is these are saved. They never met Jesus and didn’t identify as Christians. Nonetheless they’re considered saints.
Conclusion: the condition is faith: “... those who abide in Love abide in God, and God abides in them".
Yes. Jesus, Joseph and Mary were Jews; the apostles, disciples and early Jesus followers were also Jews.
Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, these early Jesus followers were known as the Way
These, convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, continued to function much like a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
The early Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Saturday Sabbath, the Way met in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day (aka Sunday).
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning is a good entry level, readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church is a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
Scripture records Jesus’ final instructions to his disciples were for them to wait for power from the Holy Spirit, because at that point, “… you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” So they waited.
After Pentecost and after Paul’s conversion we see an influx of Gentile believers.
The Jerusalem Jews revolted against Rome and Rome ransacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple in 70 AD. At this point we see the final split between Judaism and Christianity is complete.
Jerusalem goes through some hard times and the areas of Christianity move to outlying Gentile cities.
Jesus, Joseph and Mary were Jews; the apostles, disciples and early Jesus followers were Jews.
Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, these early Jesus followers were known as the Way
These, convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, continued to function much like a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
The early Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Saturday Sabbath, the Way met in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day (aka Sunday).
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning is a good entry level, readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church is a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
Scripture records Jesus’ final instructions to his disciples were for them to wait for power from the Holy Spirit, because at that point, “… you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” So they waited.
After Paul’s conversion we see an influx of Gentile believers. Rome ransacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple in 70 AD, and the split between Judaism and Christianity is complete. Jerusalem goes through some hard times and the areas of Christianity move to outlying Gentile cities. These Gentile believers continue to keep the sabbath on Sunday.
First, the New Testament Gospels were never meant to be contemporary biographies as we would define them today. Our modern expectations have no place in ancient manuscripts. Gospels are a unique and specific genre of literature that has historical and biographical elements. Greco-Roman biographies are characterized by noting events of the subject’s birth, skipping the formative years, and getting to the later deeds and manner of death. The demographic of reader/listener of that era wanted the author to “cut to the chase” – deeds and death.
Second, it’s certain that Jesus grew up among peasants in a small town in the hills of Lower Galilee, and most likely he was educated in a synagogue setting.
We can speculate about Jesus’ formative years based on his occupation noted in Mark 6:3 as a tekton (Greek noun, craftsman, artisan, carpenter) and the historical data from region. It’s obvious there weren’t enough people in the tiny hamlet of Nazareth to employ a full time carpenter shop, and we know the Romans burned nearby Sepphoris to the ground, and that a short time later Herod began rebuilding parts of it planning to turn it into a cosmopolitan capital city. It’s believed this was happening at the same time Jesus would have been ready to work in his trade. Area laborers would have went into Sepphoris to take part in the restoration projects.
Some believe Jesus spoke Greek as well as Aramaic based on the probability of him picking up Greek language skills while working in the Hellenized town of Sepphoris. Sepphoris, a Palestinian town about 3.7 miles from Nazareth, was excavated in the 1980’s. Josephus records it had a wall making it the “metropolis of Galilee.” Herod Antipas chose Sepphoris as his capital and began rebuilding it in grand Hellenistic style. (Before it was finished Antipas changed his mind and moved the capital to Tiberius in 26AD.)
So most likely Jesus worked as a day labor/carpenter in Sepphoris helping to build palatial houses/theaters for Jewish aristocracy and then returned at night to a mud-brick home in Nazareth.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning is a good entry level, readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
Thanks for asking. First I’ll note as confessing Lutheran having a Trinitarian baptism and believing/confessing the ecumenical creeds – I am Catholic.
I am not Roman Catholic for several reasons. The first being that they’ve perpetually condemned me to my damnation as anathema. As such I’m excommunicated (see Decet Romanum Pontificem Papal Bull of Excommunication of Martin Luther and his followers.) The decree issued as a result of the Council of Trent also condemns me for my Lutheran beliefs. The further declarations and anathemas of the Council of Trent were later also affirmed by A.) the Second Vatican Council and B.) the official Catechism of the Catholic Church (specifically items 846-848 under the section Outside the Church [= in communion with Rome] there is no salvation).
I have investigated Roman Catholic teachings, doctrines and dogmas and found they don’t hold up under historical and scriptural scrutiny so I willfully refuse to convert to Roman Catholicism. Briefly, here are 3 reasons why:
1. Jesus didn’t found the Roman Catholic Church.
2. Peter wasn’t the first Pope.
3. The Holy Spirit, not the Pope, is the vicar of Christ.
Allow me to explain in detail:
Contrary to what Roman Catholicism teaches, Jesus didn’t found the Roman Catholic Church. The reality is Jesus left no organization or institution outside of his disciples. Jesus was adamant that he was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”. Jesus commissioned his disciples to “make disciples of all nations” aka the Great Commission.
Jesus, Joseph and Mary were Jews; the apostles, disciples and early Jesus followers were Jews and,based on Jesus’ teaching (“I am the way, and the truth and the life) these early Jesus followers were known as the Way
These, convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, continued to function much like a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
As such the early Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Sabbath, the Way met in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day (aka Sunday).
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning is a good entry level, readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church is a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
Peter wasn’t the first Pope. Scipture clearly relates that Jesus commissioned Peter to “tend my lambs” and “shepherd my sheep.”. Who were these sheep? The “lost sheep of the house of Israel.”.
Peter and Paul correlate that Peter was entrusted to the circumcised aka Jews. Peter correlates that and describes himself as: A.) an apostle, B.) a fellow elder and a witness and C.) as a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ.
More so we see at the Jerusalem Council, Acts 15 that James, not Peter, presides over the Council and after all speak James pronounces his final judgment on the matter, “Therefore <strong>my judgment</strong> is …” The Gentile matter is resolved and no one speaks after James.
The Holy Spirit is the vicar of Christ (John 14:26; 16:13; 1 John 2:27) – not the Pope. Jesus told his disciples, “if I do not go away, the Comforter (parakletos) will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you” (John 16:7). The Greek parakletos translates: advocate, intercessor, comforter, helper.
Post Nicene Christianity beliefs/confesses that Jesus would first return to the Father, and together they would send the Holy Spirit (“… the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, proceeds from the Father and the Son ...” Nicene Creed) The Latin vicarius: “proxy", noun use of adjective vicarius "substituted, delegated," from vicis "change, interchange, succession; a place, position" (from PIE root weik- (2) "to bend, to wind").)
Note: From the moment he was introduced to the world after his election, Pope Francis has emphasized his identity as “the bishop of Rome” and has rightly dropped the Vicar of Christ title. Not surprisingly the Roman Catholic laity has been highly critical of Francis.
Disclaimer: I’m Lutheran and the Lutheran Church considers Catholics to be brothers and sisters in Christ. Lutherans and Catholics actually agree on much. Personally I’d love nothing more than reconciliation. Challenges to Catholic primacy/authority aren’t well received on Reddit but I am not here saying Catholics aren’t Christians, and I’m not attacking Catholics. These are historically/scripturally supported points of contention but they are not unfairly contentious.
I’m Lutheran and Lutherans in general consider Catholics to be brothers and sisters in Christ. Challenges to Catholic authority aren’t typically well received in this subreddit but my hope is that you please respect that I am not here saying Catholics aren’t Christians, and I’m not attacking Catholics. The following points are historically and scripturally supported.
1. Jesus left no organization or institution outside of his disciples.
2. Jesus, Joseph and Mary were Jews; the apostles, disciples and early Jesus followers were Jews.
3. Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, these early Jesus followers were known as the Way
4. These, convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, continued to function much like a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
5. The early Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Sabbath, the Way met in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day (aka Sunday).
6. The early Jesus followers would look and operate nothing like Roman Catholicism; in fact it would be much closer to what we’d call Messianic Judaism.
The absolute last thing the apostles would have considered would be patterning their leadership structure to look like that of Rome – who had just murdered Jesus and was systematically martyring their family and friends.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning is a good entry level, readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church is a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
7. It wasn’t until much after Paul’s conversion, and missions to the Gentiles, that the disciples were even called Christians.
8. The split from Judaism begins in earnest with the 50AD Jerusalem Council of Acts 15. The split is finalized when Rome decimated Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple in 70AD.
9. Further splits and factions ensue after the 325 Council of Nicaea (that inaugurated orthodoxy and run right up to the Great Schism.)
10. The near-immediate result of the 451 Council of Chalcedon was a major schism. Here in history we find the rise of Roman Catholicism.
1. Jesus left no organization or institution outside of his disciples.
2. Jesus, Joseph and Mary were Jews; the apostles, disciples and early Jesus followers were Jews.
3. Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, these early Jesus followers were known as the Way
4. These, convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, continued to function much like a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
5. The early Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Sabbath, the Way met in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day (aka Sunday).
The early Jesus followers would look and operate nothing like Roman Catholicism; in fact it would be much closer to what we’d call Messianic Judaism.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning is a good entry level, readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church is a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
6. Jesus is quoted as saying he, was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”.
7. Jesus is quoted as commissioning his disciples to “make disciples of all nations” aka the Great Commission
The New Testament teaches that Jesus was sent to Jews, the apostles (Greek apostolos, sent ones) were sent to the world, and later Paul corroborates that the gospel is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek (Gentile). All the above harmonizes scripture. Claiming Jesus founded Roman Catholicism creates disharmony and requires Olympian apologetics to reconcile.
8. Scripture records Jesus’ final instructions to his disciples were for them to wait for power from the Holy Spirit, because at that point, “… you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” So they waited.
9. Jesus is quoted saying, “if I do not go away, the <em>parakletos</em> (Greek, advocate, intercessor, comforter, helper) will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you” (John 16:7). (Post-Nicene Christianity believes and confesses: “… We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son ...” Nicene Creed)
10. On the Jewish holiday of Pentecost a “violent rushing wind”, tongues of fire and all the disciples being filled with the Holy Spirit. (The typology here would perhaps be the burning bush or perhaps the pillar of fire that led the Israelites out of Egypt; this would not be lost on the 12 who represented the 12 tribes.)
11. The Holy Spirit is the vicar of Christ. – not a man. Latin vicarius is “proxy", noun use of adjective vicarius "substituted, delegated," from vicis "change, interchange, succession; a place, position" (from PIE root weik- (2) "to bend, to wind").)
12. At this point in time, after Pentecost, now Peter can give the official first new covenant church sermon to share the Gospel. Peter supports his teaching with scripture at a point referencing the prophet Joel and Elohim’s Spirit being poured out on <strong>all people</strong>.
According to New Testament, the new covenant church (Greek, ekklesia) can now perform the duties of its office: preach, teach, outreach, administer sacraments and loose and bind sins. Prior to Pentecost there could be no “new covenant church” that could perform the duties of its office. Christianity believes and confesses in the Nicene Creed that Jesus would first return to the Father, and together they would send the Holy Spirit.
tl;dr: Christianity believes and confesses that Jesus founded a new covenant.
> But Christ the man *did*, in fact, make a religion and start a new Church, a new covenant.
The fact is Jesus founded a new covenant within Judaism; not a new religion. Jesus left no organization or institution outside of his disciples.
Jesus, Joseph and Mary were Jews; the apostles, disciples and early Jesus followers were Jews.
Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, these early Jesus followers were known as the Way
These, convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, continued to function much like a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
The early Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Sabbath, the Way met in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day (aka Sunday).
The early Jesus followers would look and operate much like what we’d call Messianic Judaism. The absolute last thing the apostles would have considered would be patterning their leadership structure to look like that of Rome – who had just murdered Jesus and was systematically martyring their family and friends.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning is a good entry level, readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church is a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
Jesus is quoted as saying he, was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”. Jesus is quoted as commissioning his disciples to “make disciples of all nations” aka the Great Commission
The New Testament teaches that Jesus was sent to Jews, the apostles (Greek apostolos, sent ones) were sent to the world, and later Paul corroborates that the gospel is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek (Gentile). All the above harmonizes scripture.
Scripture records Jesus’ final instructions to his disciples were for them to wait for power from the Holy Spirit, because at that point, “… you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” So they waited.
Jesus is quoted saying, “if I do not go away, the <em>parakletos</em> (Greek, advocate, intercessor, comforter, helper) will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you” (John 16:7). (Post-Nicene Christianity believes and confesses: “… We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son ...” Nicene Creed)
On the Jewish holiday of Pentecost a “violent rushing wind”, tongues of fire and all the disciples being filled with the Holy Spirit. (The typology here would perhaps be the burning bush or perhaps the pillar of fire that led the Israelites out of Egypt; this would not be lost on the 12 who represented the 12 tribes.)
At this point in time, after Pentecost, now Peter can give the official first new covenant church sermon to share the Gospel. Peter supports his teaching with scripture at a point referencing the prophet Joel and Elohim’s Spirit being poured out on <strong>all people</strong>.
According to New Testament, the new covenant church (Greek, ekklesia) can now perform the duties of its office: preach, teach, outreach, administer sacraments and loose and bind sins. Prior to Pentecost there could be no “new covenant church” that could perform the duties of its office. Christianity believes and confesses in the Nicene Creed that Jesus would first return to the Father, and together they would send the Holy Spirit.
tl;dr: Christianity believes and confesses that the Holy Spirit, “the Lord and giver of life”, founded the Church at Pentecost and that the Holy Spirit is the vicar of Christ. This harmonizes the Bible. Teaching that Jesus founded a church or a new religion creates disharmony within scripture and requires Olympian apologetics that only serves to contradict and confuse other key doctrines taught in scripture.
Note: I’m Lutheran and Lutherans in general consider Catholics to be brothers and sisters in Christ. I am not saying Catholics aren’t Christians, and I’m not attacking Catholics. Peace.
> Catholicism was the first form of Christianity,
False. The early Jesus followers would look and operate nothing like Roman Catholicism; in fact it would be much closer to what we’d call Messianic Judaism.
1. Jesus left no organization or institution outside of his disciples.
2. Jesus, Joseph and Mary were Jews; the apostles, disciples and early Jesus followers were Jews.
3. Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, these early Jesus followers were known as the Way
4. These, convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, continued to function much like a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
5. The early Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Sabbath, the Way met in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day (aka Sunday).
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning is a good entry level, readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church is a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
> Catholicism is the original Christianity.
Not according to the Bible or history.
1. Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, the early Jesus followers were Jews known as the Way
2. These Jewish Jesus followers, convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, continued to function much like a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
3. The early Jewish Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Because they kept the Jewish Saturday Sabbath, the Way began additionally meeting in each other’s homes on Sunday (a day they called the Lord’s Day because Jesus rose from the dead on a Sunday.)
4. The early Jesus followers would look and operate nothing like Roman Catholicism; in fact it would look very much like what we’d today call Messianic Judaism. The absolute last thing the apostles would have even considered would be patterning their leadership structure to look like that of Rome – who had just murdered Jesus and was systematically martyring their family and friends.
Resources/Citations:
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning is a good entry level, readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church is a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
Ironically you’re linked infographic What did the First Christians Believe? totally skips the first Christians and jumps to the following centuries.
> That's a big straw man brother.
That’s a big unsupported claim. I look forward to you supporting it.
> You know full and well that I didn't refer to the OT, but the NT.
Special pleading: You moved the goalposts or made up an exception when your claim was shown to be false.
If you mean NT then write that. You didn’t write that. You wrote Bible. Any Sunday School or catechism kid knows the Bible is compromised of the OT and NT.
> The Catholic Church wrote the NT.
Historically inaccurate. The New Testament authors were Jewish Jesus followers who were steeped in Judaism (with perhaps the exception of Luke.)
1. Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, the early Jesus followers were Jews known as the Way
2. These Jewish Jesus followers, convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, continued to function much like a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
3. The early Jewish Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Because they kept the Jewish Saturday Sabbath, the Way began additionally meeting in each other’s homes on Sunday (a day they called the Lord’s Day because Jesus rose from the dead on a Sunday.)
4. The early Jesus followers would look and operate nothing like Roman Catholicism; in fact it would look very much like what we’d today call Messianic Judaism. The absolute last thing the apostles would have even considered would be patterning their leadership structure to look like that of Rome – who had just murdered Jesus and was systematically martyring their family and friends.
Sources:
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning is a good entry level, readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church is a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
> I am Jewish,
Welcome to the sub! I’m a Lutheran Christian.
> and it was my understanding that Catholicism and Christianity were a part of the same religion, just different sects.
Christianity was founded in Judaism and is steeped in Judaism. Jesus, Joseph and Mary were Jews; the apostles, disciples and early Jesus followers were Jews. Let me explain:
1. Jesus is quoted as saying he, was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”.
2. Jesus is also quoted as telling his disciples to “make disciples of all nations” aka the Great Commission
3. So our New Testament teaches that Jesus was sent to Jews and the apostles (Greek apostolos, sent ones) were sent to the world (to include Gentiles.)
4. The apostle Paul, who wrote much of the New Testament corroborates this when he wrote that the gospel is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek (Gentile).
5. The NT records Jesus’ final instructions to his disciples were for them to wait for power from the Holy Spirit, because at that point, “… you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
So they waited. This proves that Jesus left no organization or institution outside of his disciples. Jesus’ primary focus were Jews and he founded a new covenant within Judaism.
6. The NT records Jesus then ascended into Heaven in order to send his apostles the Holy Spirit.
7. On the Jewish holiday of Pentecost, when Jesus’ apostles where together in a room, suddenly a “violent rushing wind” and tongues of fire fell on them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit.
(This represented the burning bush or perhaps the pillar of fire that led the Israelites out of Egypt; the fire imagery would not be lost on the 12 apostles who represented the 12 tribes of Israel.)
8. This is the founding of the New Covenant people with faith in Jesus Christ. (Christ meaning anointed one aka Messiah.)
9. Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, the early Jesus followers were Jews known as the Way
10. These Jewish Jesus followers, convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, continued to function much like a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
11. The early Jewish Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Because they kept the Jewish Saturday Sabbath, the Way began additionally meeting in each other’s homes on Sunday (a day they called the Lord’s Day because Jesus rose from the dead on a Sunday.)
12. The early Jesus followers would look and operate nothing like Roman Catholicism; in fact it would look very much like what we’d today call Messianic Judaism. The absolute last thing the apostles would have even considered would be patterning their leadership structure to look like that of Rome – who had just murdered Jesus and was systematically martyring their family and friends.
Academic history books on the early history of Christianity:
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning is a good entry level, readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church is a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
> They were absolutely INSISTENT that Catholicism was an entirely different religion. Is that true?
After Rome destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple in 70AD, Christianity and Judaism pretty much split. The Jewish/Gentile believers outside Jerusalem now begin to become the dominant majority in Christianity. Eventually Christianity became more and more Gentile.
By 90AD the apostles are all dead and their disciples take over as leaders. They remain a relatively small group until the 4th century when Roman emperor Constantine makes Christianity Rome’s state religion.
By the 5th century Roman Christianity evolved into what we’d recognize as Roman Catholicism. Factions within the whole of Christianity continue to argue and split. At this point Roman Catholicism begins claiming authority and primacy over all Christendom.
With the backing of the Roman Empire, Roman Catholicism eventually becomes the dominant player in Christianity. Even so it still contends with other factions of Christianity up to the Protestant Reformation.
> From an outsiders perspective, Catholicism and Christianity seem to be mostly the same, with different interpretations of the exact same holy book.
Lutherans Church considers Catholics to be brothers and sisters in Christ. Lutherans and Catholics, in regards to Christian beliefs, actually agree on very much. Unfortunately we disagree on a few very key parts.
> I know there are differences between the two, but I want to know if Catholicism and Christianity are entirely separate religions.
Short answer: Catholics and Protestants both believe and confess the tenets of Christian religion. Some zealous believers on each side will say that the other side isn’t Christian but fir the most part most of us get along and have dialogue to resolve differences.
Sorry so long but hope that helps. Peace
> All the denominations are as branches of a tree with the trunk being the Catholic, Orthodox, and oriental Orthodox Churches themselves going directly back to the roots being the early undivided church.
Historically and biblically inaccurate.
1. Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, the early Jesus followers were known as the Way
2. These, convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, continued to function much like a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
3. The early Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Sabbath, the Way met in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day (aka Sunday).
The early Jesus followers would look and operate nothing like Roman Catholicism; in fact it would be much closer to what we’d call Messianic Judaism.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning is a good entry level, readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church is a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
I’m not a scholar but an old Lutheran.
> if I recall perhaps it was a mixture of things - one being a desire to distinguish themselves from Judaism ?
Context:
1. Jesus left no organization or institution outside of his disciples.
2. Jesus, Joseph and Mary were Jews; the apostles, disciples and early Jesus followers were Jews.
3. Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, these early Jesus followers were known as the Way
4. These, convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, continued to function much like a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
5. The early Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws.
A. Keeping the Sabbath, the Way met in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day (aka Sunday).
B. The early Jesus followers would look and operate much closer to what we’d today call Messianic Jews.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning is a good entry level, readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church is a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
Due to Paul’s successful missions to the Gentiles, the influx of Gentile converts the Jewish Jerusalem believers felt the Gentiles should wholly convert to Judaism. A council of leaders gathered in approximately 50AD to settle the matter.
James, brother of Jesus and leader of the home church in Jerusalem, makes a judgment that they would not force Gentiles to convert.
C/. This is the start of the separation of Judaism and Christianity.
Epistles: The apostle Paul begins writing letters (epistles) to new churches to present and correct new covenant church doctrine (core teachings) and its believed these become the earliest New Testament manuscripts in final form.
62AD — James is executed.
A few years later Rome burns (64AD). Spurred by Jewish revolts, the Roman Empire retaliates with a vengeance and begins a systematic campaign to obliterate Jewish Jerusalem. Rome barricades Jerusalem, famine ensues and Jerusalem falls. Titus orders Jerusalem razed, slaughters thousands, ransacks the Temple artifacts and destroys the Temple.
As a result the Jews scatter (diaspora) and the cultural diversity among first-century Jews ceases. With no Temple: Levitical priesthood vanishes, Sadducees (Temple sect) vanish and sacrifices come to an immediate halt. Qumran falls and the Zealots are crushed at Masada (73AD.)
At this point two sects remain: the Jesus followers and the Pharisees. Pharisaic Judaism becomes Rabbinic Judaism; the Jesus movement shifts to predominately Gentile cities of Antioch, Alexandria and Rome each having it’s own bishop/presbyters/elders.
The apostles die and their disciples continue. At this point in history, about 90-100 AD, the separation between Judaism and Christianity is complete and for the most part viewed as a separate religion.
D. No longer having the Jewish cultural markers the Gentiles continue to meet on Sunday the Lord’s Day.
> How did/do Christians reconcile changing this in light of Exodus 20:8-11:
I can’t speak for all Christians but Lutherans resolve it via Christian Liberty (read “Christian” as new covenant Gentiles without Jewish ancestral markers):
We teach that in the New Testament God has abrogated the Sabbath and all the holy days prescribed for the Church of the Old Covenant, so that neither "the keeping of the Sabbath nor any other day" nor the observance of at least one specific day of the seven days of the week is ordained or commanded by God, Col. 2:16; Rom. 14:5 (Augsburg Confession, Triglot, p. 91, Paragraphs 51-60; M., p. 66).
The observance of Sunday and other church festivals is an ordinance of the Church, made by virtue of Christian liberty. (Augsburg Confession, Triglot, p. 91, Paragraphs 51-53, 60; M., p. 66; Large Catechism, Triglot, p. 603, Paragraphs 83, 85, 89, M., p. 401.) Hence Christians should not regard such ordinances as ordained by God and binding upon the conscience, Col. 2:16; Gal. 4:10. However, for the sake of Christian love and peace they should willingly observe them, Rom. 14:13; 1 Cor. 14:40. (Augsburg Confession, Triglot, p. 91, Paragraphs 53-56; M., p. 67.)
> Lots of people also think that the answer is the Catholic Church, which it could be ...
The Lutheran Church considers Catholics to be brothers and sisters in Christ and we agree on much. I am not here saying Catholics aren’t Christians, and I’m not attacking Catholics but to answer your question:
1. Jesus left no organization or institution outside of his disciples.
2. Jesus, Joseph and Mary were Jews; the apostles, disciples and early Jesus followers were Jews.
3. Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, these early Jesus followers were known as the Way
4. Convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, the Way continued to function much like a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.
5. The early Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Sabbath, the Way met in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day (aka Sunday).
The early Jesus followers would look and operate much closer to what we’d today call Messianic Judaism.
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning is a good entry level, readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church is a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.
Disclaimer: be careful when drawing hasty conclusions based on an appeal to purity. Just because the early Jesus followers were Jews doesn’t equate to some modern Christian denominations being false.
> The first church council met 17 years after Jesus ascended to heaven.
They did:
1. Jesus, Joseph and Mary were Jews; the apostles, disciples and earliest Jesus followers were Jews.
2. Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, these early Jesus followers were known as the Way
3. These, convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, continued to function much like a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism. The early Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Sabbath, the Way met in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day (aka Sunday).
4. The early Jesus followers would look and operate nothing like Catholicism; in fact it would be much closer to what we’d call Messianic Judaism. Due to the success of the Great Commission, Paul’s conversion and successful missions to the Gentiles we find an influx of Gentiles. Due to the influx the Jewish Jerusalem believers felt the Gentiles should keep Jewish ancestral markers hence the Jerusalem Council of 50AD was called to settle the matter.
5. James, not Peter, presides and James makes a final judgment on the matter; that they would not force Gentiles to convert to Judaism and its ancestral markers.
6. We know their leadership functioned as a group of presbyters much like the presbyters of the Jewish synagogue. We know Peter, James and John are collectively referred to as “esteemed leaders” and “Pillars” (Galatians 2:2 &amp; 2:9) and we know James the Just (not Peter) presided over the Jerusalem Council.
7. We know James made a final judgment on the matter of the Gentiles in Acts 15.
8. We know Eusebius Records James the Just was elected bishop of Jerusalem (the home church) because, “Peter, James and John did not strive for honor.” Church History Book II, chp 1.2 and 1.3
9. 66-73AD – The Great Revolt (Judea/Galilee revolt against Rome.) The Roman Empire Jerusalem systematically raided/ransacked/obliterated Jerusalem and slaughters thousands, ransacks the Temple artifacts and destroys the Temple. At this point James, Peter and Paul are dead, the Temple is destroyed and Jerusalem falls.
10. The first split in Christianity is finalized; Gentile Christianity now gains strength in outlying areas of Alexandria, Antioch and Rome.
> They continue right up to the present day.
Nope. See my previous post Splits and schisms in Christianity
> The church was built on the rock that is Peter.
Nope. See my previous post Matthew 16: The Father reveals Jesus — not Peter
If by traditional you mean the earliest form of Christianity, then Messianic Judaism.
Jesus made it very clear that he was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”.
The Bible teaches that Jesus is the the mediator of a new covenant in his blood.
God founded this new covenant within the covenant system that God had previously established within Israel/Judaism.
This harmonizes the NT with the OT and rightly teaches that Jesus is the founder of salvation and the founder our faith.
What Jesus left: apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers so that the body of Christ may be built up. Jesus commissioned his disciples to “make disciples of all nations” (aka the Great Commission.)
Jesus shared his intent with his apostles (Greek, apostolos, a messenger, one sent on a mission) that they build an ekklesia (a people “called out to assemble”) from all nations to be the mystical body of believers called out from the world and into His eternal kingdom.
Paul corroborates that the gospel is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek (Gentile). This harmonizes scripture.
In fact the Jesus followers weren’t even called Christians until a year after Paul’s conversion.
So what is the church? Not what but who: whoever confesses that the son of man (Jesus manifested in the flesh) is the Son of the living God. God abides in them, and they in God. So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.
On Pentecost the Holy Spirit is poured out and at this point the church is brought to life and empowered to build: preaching, teaching and administering the sacraments. The Holy Spirit founded the new covenant church at Pentecost
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The Way
Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, these early Jesus followers were known as the Way
Convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah who founded a new covenant with the covenant system, the early Jesus followers continued to function as a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism. They continued to follow ancestral Jewish markers: go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Saturday Sabbath, the Way met with each other in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day.
The early Jesus followers would look and operate much like what we’d today consider Messianic Judaism. James assumed leadership of the Jerusalem Christian community, the apostles/leaders functioned as a group of presbyters who apparently acted somewhat like the Judean presbyter elders of the Jewish synagogues.
Due to the influx of Gentile proselytes this contentious relationship would change starting with the 50 AD Jerusalem Council of Acts 15. The separation of Christianity from Judaism would be complete after Rome ransacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple (70 AD).
The First Hundred Years AD 1-100: Failures and Successes of Christianity's Beginning: a readable historical treatment of the Jesus Movement in First Century context to include the Jewish fight against despotic Roman rule and the violent separation of Christianity from Judaism.
History Of The Christian Church: a comprehensive, academic 8 volume history of the Christian Church.