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The Foundations of Buddhism (OPUS)?
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The foundations of buddhism by Rupert Gethin is a good start. I think it provides a very solid ground to build upon, as it provides historical information on the development of buddhism, aswell as doctrinal information on both theravada and mahayana. It's basic, or rather, it's written for beginners, but it still contains a lot of very good information. It has very good reviews on amazon too (link), so many people evidently like the book.
>The point in my response was that I interpreted you to say that elimination of craving was not part of the path to reduce suffering, when it clearly is, as is evident if you read any introductory text on Buddhism, and I provided a quote from the Pali cannon to illustrate this.
>But now it seems to have morphed into a quibble over how to summarize the third noble truth.
If something has morphed its your argument and its because you morphed it. When I originally joined this thread this is the comment I responded to:
>I am asking about the second Noble truth. I am asking concretely, how one reduces/eliminates thirst in the context of meditation...
>It's as if I asked about how exactly to do step 4 of a recipe, to mix flour and butter together, and you responded with, follow the recipe. I'm asking specifically about one of the steps in the recipe.
This is you stating emphatically that you are talking about the Second Noble Truth.
I replied:
>The First Noble Truth is all life is suffering.
>The Second Noble Truth is suffering is caused by desire.
>The Third Noble Truth is there can be an end to suffering.
>The Fourth Noble Truth is that the end to suffering is in following the Eightfold Path.
>I know you've seen people here say that if you eliminate all desire you can end suffering, and maybe you've seen a website or even a book that says as much, and if you want to believe that too that's perfectly fine.
>>I am asking concretely, how one reduces/eliminates thirst in the context of meditation...
>You can't make a Turkey with salt. You can't extinguish desire with meditation. It takes more than that, but that can help.
To which you replied:
>The third Noble truth is more specific than you note
>>nirodha (cessation, ending) of this dukkha can be attained by eliminating all "craving, desire, and attachment";[7][8]
This is you mentioning the Third Noble Truth for the first time. I don't know why you brought up the Third Noble Truth. I think you're confused and I'm not here to "quibble", or to flex my ego, or to expose anyone so I simply wished you good luck.
You then replied with:
>Here is a short summary of the four noble truths from the Saṃyutta Nikāya of the Pali cannon, as quoted in The Foundations of Buddhism by Buddhist scholar Rupert Gethin.
>>This is the noble truth of suffering: birth is suffering, ageing is suffering, sickness is suffering, dying is suffering, sorrow, grief, pain, unhappiness, and unease are suffering; being united with what is not liked is suffering, separation from what is liked is suffering; not to get what one wants is suffering; in short, the five aggregates of grasping are suffering.
>>This is the noble truth of the origin of suffering: the thirst for repeated existence which, associated with delight and greed, delights in this and that, namely the thirst for the objects of sense desire, the thirst for existence, and the thirst for non-existence.
>>This is the noble truth of the cessation of suffering: the complete fading away and cessation of this very thirst its abandoning, relinquishing, releasing, letting go.
>>This is the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering: the noble eightfold path, namely right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.
I don't know why you chose to share this translation, or how it advances your point. But I noticed that it is a workable translation so I replied:
>The second noble truth here doesn't look anything like what you described before. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.
I thought that this would gently point out that you had switched from the Second Noble Truth to the Third Noble Truth, and I was trying to point out that even in the translation you quoted The Second Noble Truth is not how you described it here:
>I am asking about the second Noble truth. I am asking concretely, how one reduces/eliminates thirst in the context of meditation...
>It's as if I asked about how exactly to do step 4 of a recipe, to mix flour and butter together, and you responded with, follow the recipe. I'm asking specifically about one of the steps in the recipe.
1. One does not reduce or eliminate desire in the context of meditation
2. The Four Noble Truths are not like a recipe or step by step instructions
3. The Second Noble Truth only says that suffering is caused by desire. It does not describe or imply any action.
But as a response you say:
>That's because I was describing the third noble truth not the second. And the previous quote is in agreement with this quote from the Pali cannon. "Thirst" here is equivalent to craving.
>>I know you've seen people here say that if you eliminate all desire you can end suffering, and maybe you've seen a website or even a book that says as much, and if you want to believe that too that's perfectly fine.
>I am responding to this comment of yours, given that it is not something said only by "people" or found in a "website"/"book", but the pali cannon itself.
I am not quibbling over how to summarize the Third Noble Truth. You are insisting that you have always been talking about the Third Noble Truth, and you have not. You also seem to be saying that your point is that The Third Noble Truth implies or describes some action, which it does not.
So I reply:
>The third noble truth says only that there can be an end to suffering.
>You need to look at the discussion and really think about what you've said. I think you're confused. I know you are.
Suggesting some of my suspicions and encouraging you to review the discussion which I've detailed above.
And now this last reply from you:
>The point in my response was that I interpreted you to say that elimination of craving was not part of the path to reduce suffering, when it clearly is, as is evident if you read any introductory text on Buddhism, and I provided a quote from the Pali cannon to illustrate this.
>But now it seems to have morphed into a quibble over how to summarize the third noble truth.
>>This is the noble truth of the cessation of suffering: the complete fading away and cessation of this very thirst its abandoning, relinquishing, releasing, letting go.
>Sure you can summarize the third noble truth by saying that there is an end to suffering, but it is only gets at half point, as is evident above, that end can occur by removing the cause of suffering, namely thirst: "...the cessation of suffering:[is achieved by]...complete...cessation of...thirst [craving/strong desire]".
>The noble truths as stated are just short descriptions of a general structure to the diagnosis of the state of things from a Buddhist perspective. The truths are expanded in great detail, in basically every element of Buddhism.
Do you recall the story of the Buddha before he reached Enlightenment? He had become frustrated in his practice and decided that he would sit beneath a tree and do nothing but meditate until he reached Enlightenment. He was not able to reach Enlightenment in this way and you will not either. This is something I am absolutely sure of. Elimination of desire is part of the path, but it is not the whole or primary focus, and in the context of meditation it's not something to focus on in the way that you mean it. Nor is it suggested in any introductory text of Buddhism. You have misunderstood your reading.
I am not quibbling over how to summarize the Third Noble Truth. It does not say what you think it says, or mean what you think it means. I am trying to have a discussion and address your questions.
>Sure you can summarize the third noble truth by saying that there is an end to suffering, but it is only gets at half point, as is evident above, that end can occur by removing the cause of suffering, namely thirst: "...the cessation of suffering:[is achieved by]...complete...cessation of...thirst [craving/strong desire]".
Bracketing in words you think should be there is not helping you understand. Let me be clear:
The way to end suffering is by following the Eightfold Path. Meditation is a part of that path and being mindful of desire is a part of that path. Meditation on ending desire will not, in and of itself, bring you to Enlightenment.
https://www.amazon.com/Foundations-Buddhism-OPUS-Rupert-Gethin/dp/0192892231
many chapters in that book trace the spread of buddhist texts from india into asia. perhaps you can find something there.
I posted this on someone else's post, but it applies here too:
This is one of main websites for Secular Buddhism: http://secularbuddhism.org/new-to-secular-buddhism/ You can also post on the forums or attend the bi-monthly online meditations (Practice Circle).
Also, I got my start in Secular Buddhism by joining Coursera's Buddhism and Modern Psychology class: https://www.coursera.org/learn/science-of-meditation/home/welcome
and then reading the recommended text: http://www.amazon.com/The-Foundations-Buddhism-Opus-S/dp/0192892231
Once you understand the basics of Buddhism, it'll be easier to understand Secular Buddhism specifically. You can also read Batchelor's books, but they are kind of... a stream of consciousness account of his own thoughts. It isn't necessarily informative right off the bat, imho.
Anyways, I'm a Director at Secular Buddhist Association and a mentor for the Coursera class, so AMA
The Foundations of Buddhism by Rupert Gethin is one of recommendable books for a comprehensive, balanced, sect neutral introduction to Buddhism.
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