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May I recommend a book you might find interesting? It's called The Language of God by Francis S. Collins. He is a prominent scientist and was head of the Human Genome Project. You can pick it up used with free shipping for $5 on Amazon.
I am not familiar with that book, but I know a book along those lines that I can vouch for - The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief by Francis Collins. Collins is an extraordinary scientist and former head of the Human Genome project.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
If you have time try reading The Language of God. Idk if it will help your feelings about tragedy, but I’ve been questioning my belief in a higher power for a long time and this book helped me re-establish my agnosticism. It’s written by an MD/PhD who was the director of the human genome project and he does a great job IMO of making an argument for faith in general from a place of logic. I gained a lot from everything up until the last section of the book, in which he provides his explanation for why he believes Christianity is the “best faith explanation” for science, but he’s avoids talking about it for the first 80% so skeptics like me aren’t scared away.
> only because you are coming with fully formed assumptions.
That's false. I was an atheist for most of my life and slowly started recognizing more and more signs of design.
Former atheist Nobel Laureate Dr. Francis Collins explains some of the evidence in his book:
"The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief"
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
> because if really humans are so important why even create it all?
God is love and wants to allow others to share in eternal love and joy.
> ... if god really made everything there is then why make literally everything but one tiny planet on the outside of a very basic galaxy the only place where humans can exist?
God is truly infinite, so He created this Universe as a dumbed down way so that people could start to learn about Him, which is much greater than this Universe. All the animals are also designed to help us know about ourselves, and Him. Since the fall, some animals became Evil, which is a manifestation of the evil that people took on.
> there are magnitudes more evidence for it than "god did it".
That's false. You could falsify much of Christianity if you could create life and consciousness via natural causes. There is no evidence that could happen.
If you found a book in the middle of the woods, would you assume that some trees accidently formed the book? No, some intelligent being had to put it there. The same is true with life. There is no good evidence that life could arise here. Science shows that organic chemicals decay. They don't rise up into living beings.
Meteorites have organic compounds because God made this Universe for us.
> imaginary friend
I agree that your imaginary friend idea doesn't make sense.
Please try to pay attention.
The Universe is evidence of God like a book is evidence of an author
> Be careful with being too open minded, your brains could fall out or garbage could fall in.
I would agree that is what Atheism is because it has no conclusions about what the Universe is.
> Life is formed. Make requires a maker.
Life is only formed by life. God is a living being.
There is no evidence that life can come from non-life.
> I don't know what information theory has to do
I recommend that you start learning, like this former Atheist and Nobel Laureate wrote when he saw the evidence in life :
The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief https://www.amazon.com/dp/1416542744/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_i_P4PPW2CNFF66AKWBG4SG
> Please give me empirical evidence of a god
Please try to pay attention.
Life is empirical evidence of God like a book is evidence of an author.
>Your low requirements don’t meet my expectations
Um... There are literally mountains of books on this topic of science and God. Have ypu even read any? Have you seen the quotes I listed?
So unless you've read some of the scientific views behind belief in God I would say you're really not being an impartial juror.
These men all saw "proof" very clearly in the science they studied. They saw proof. Have you looked at the evidence they looked at?
Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D
He was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of human DNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.
He wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
“I have concluded that we are in a world made by rules created by an intelligence. Believe me, everything that we call chance today won’t make sense anymore. To me it is clear that we exist in a plan which is governed by rules that were created, shaped by a universal intelligence and not by chance.”
–Michio Kaku, theoretical physicist and string theory pioneer.
You should keep in mind that your typical atheist isn't thinking about God, or anti-God, theology or counter-apologetics. They're just going about their day, doing normal people things. They don't passionately disbelieve, they are just apathetic to what they see as unfounded claims.
On the other side of that coin though, the atheists you'll find frequenting a forum like 'Debate an Atheist,' have a strong selection bias to be those with a bone to pick. Much in the same way that the passionate Christians in online spaces are motivated by a rigorous need to spread the word; or by questioning doubt. Very for run-of-the mill examples of either side.
A book recommendation, if you are interested;
Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief
It's a book by Francis S. Collins, a Christian famed for leading the Human Genome Project. He presents a Christian perspective for understanding the evidence behind evolution, notably that of humans from their great-ape ancestors, touching on the first point in your OP.
I think you’d really appreciate this book. I found it to be a very interesting read. One of his discussions is around the God of the gaps idea you mentioned.
Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief https://www.amazon.com/dp/1416542744/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glc_fabc_7lX2FbHJFPADJ
Since you appear to have some sense of balance to your faith, I would suggest reading The Language of God by Collins. Really good discussion of science and faith coexisting.
The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief https://www.amazon.com/dp/1416542744/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_5kisFbEYW1EEP
A really good book for you might be The Language of God by Francis Collins, who headed the Human Genome project.
>I agree I like the teaching of Jesus, but I can not believe the ancient testament for instance.
The first 5 books are mythical rather than historical. I believe that and am still a Christian.
Oh, sure, I totally agree with that. I'm just saying I get a lot of bleating about fossils.
And in agreement with your point, I often recommend this Francis Collins book to religious people, just on the off chance that they might understand his points about DNA.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
I don't agree much with the religious parts of the book, but that's not really the point, IMO.
>Learning about evolution makes all the creationist beliefs I had seem dumb.
Just so you know, it's more than possible to be a Christian and also believe in the theory of evolution. The Bible was never meant to be a science book, and I'd argue that the original audience wouldn't have interpreted it that way. Christians interpreted the Creation narrative as figurative thousands of years before evolution was ever theorized.
If you are serious about your search for answers, pick up this book:
The Language of God, by Francis S. Collins
Collins is one of the leading scientists of the turn of the millennium, and also a devout Christian. If you have questions about how science and faith work together, you need look no further.
There aren't superior races of humanity because evolution isn't teleological, it doesn't have an end goal or intrinsic purpose.
Once you're aware of the evidence, the conclusion that all life is related is self-evident. For example, all other ape species have 24 pairs of chromosomes. Humans have only 23. It was discovered that human chromosome 2 has telomeres (basically protective end caps for chromosomes) in the middle of the chromosome. This suggests that two chromosomes became fused at some point in the past and that this trait was passed on to all subsequent descendants.
As further confirmation, it was found that the genetic code from each end of this apparently hybrid chromosome was a near-perfect match to the code from chromosomes 2 and 3 in chimpanzees and gorillas.
I used to be where you are - accepted that evolution had to have at least some truth to it, but was still not sure as to the extent that it occurred between wildly different groups of animals. The Language of God by Francis Collins more or less single-handedly changed my mind. The author is a born-again Christian but also one of the leading geneticists of our time. He was the head researcher on the Human Genome Project.
I hope you decide to look into the subject further, but regardless of if you do or not, be sure not to lose that skeptical attitude.
For those unfamiliar with him, in addition to being the Director of the NIH and former head of the Human Genome Project, Collins is also the founder of Biologos. Biologos describes its mission as inviting " the church and the world to see the harmony between science and biblical faith as we present an evolutionary understanding of God's creation."
Collins wrote an excellent book The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief which I would highly recommend. It's an excellent look at how an elite scientist came to believe in a personal God and see the relationship between science and faith.
Here is an editorial by Collins from 2007: Why this scientist believes in God
Here is a good interview with Collins in Salon from back in 2006.
Here are some talks Collins has given for The Veritas Forum about his faith:
How seeing suffering in med school led me to Christianity (6 min)
The pointers that led me to God (14 min)
The Language of God (1: hr 33 min)
The last talk is based on his book of the same name.
He was also a repeat guest on the Colber Report: (1), (2), (3), (4)
>since there is NO evidence then,
I would have to disagree with you. There is indeed evidence God exists.
The complexity in life we observe is evidence of "thought" (a mind) behind it.
On a simple level, if I walk on an apparently deserted island, and come across perfect writing in the sand that says "John loves Sally" with a big heart around it. It would be very difficult to dismiss that as occurring at random.... It would actually be foolish. Why? Because information/complexity requires a "thinking mind" behind it. That simple message in the sand tells me that this island is not deserted. There must be somebody here (or have been there recently).
The same thing could be said about software. I certainly do not know the software engineers who coded my OS, but I am 100% sure they exist. I would be a fool to say chance made such information/complexity. DNA is actually software made up of four "letters". It is a chemical software that tells the body what to do. Infinitely more complex than a message written in the sand or the most advanced OS.
So in that same sense, God has shown us that He exists by the complexity in the world. The human body is the most complex object in the universe. Science has written volumes, enough to fill libraries about how complex the human body is. All the biological systems working together in unison in the body are astronomically complex as compared to other things in nature. And that complexity is like seeing the writing in the sand or the OS on your phone.
It tells us that there is 100% sure a "thinking mind" mind behind it. God.
Perhaps your studies have not led you to read any of these great scientific minds and their thoughts on God's existence for the reasons listed above..
Let me encourage you to do so because their writings are very well respected.
Allan Sandage (arguably the greatest astronomer of the 20th century), left atheism.
He says, “The [scientific] world is too complicated in all parts and interconnections to be due to chance alone,”
Read more here:
https://thinkingmatters.org.nz/2017/11/allan-sandage/
"You may fly to the ends of the world and find no God but the Author of Salvation."
James Clerk Maxwell, a deeply committed Christian. Also, a Scientist and Mathematician who has influenced all of modern day physics and voted one of the top three physicists of all time.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Clerk_Maxwell
Albert Einstein once said of him, 'I stand not on the shoulders of Newton, but on the shoulders of James Clerk Maxwell.'
Christopher Isham (perhaps Britain's greatest quantum cosmologist), a believer in God's existence.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Isham
Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D also left atheism after seeing the evidence from science.
He was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of human DNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.
He wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
Also... these simple yet powerful quotes from men of science:
“There is no conflict between science and religion. Our knowledge of God is made larger with every discovery we make about the world.”
–Joseph H. Taylor, Jr., who received the 1993 Nobel Prize in Physics for the discovery of the first known binary pulsar.
And this:
"I build molecules for a living. I can't begin to tell you how difficult that job is. I stand in awe of God because of what he has done through his creation. My faith has been increased through my research. Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God."
-Dr. James Tour, voted one of the top 10 chemists in the world. A strong theist and one of the world's leading chemists in the field of nanotechnology.
He shows here how complex and unlikely atheistic abiogenesis is, due to its extreme complexity.
He also goes much more in depth with a 13 episode series on abiogenesis. Here: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLILWudw_84t2THBvJZFyuLA0qvxwrIBDr
“One way to learn the mind of the Creator is to study His creation. We must pay God the compliment of studying His work of art and this should apply to all realms of human thought. A refusal to use our intelligence honestly is an act of contempt for Him who gave us that intelligence.”
— Physicist Ernest Walton, who won the Nobel Prize in Physics for his experiments done at Cambridge University, and so became the first person in history to artificially split the atom.
“I believe that the more thoroughly science is studied, the further does it take us from anything comparable to atheism.”
And
“If you study science deep enough and long enough, it will force you to believe in God.”
—Lord William Kelvin, who was noted for his theoretical work on thermodynamics, the concept of absolute zero and the Kelvin temperature scale based upon it.
“God created everything by number, weight and measure.”
—Sir Isaac Newton,
“I have concluded that we are in a world made by rules created by an intelligence. Believe me, everything that we call chance today won’t make sense anymore. To me it is clear that we exist in a plan which is governed by rules that were created, shaped by a universal intelligence and not by chance.”
–Michio Kaku, theoretical physicist and string theory pioneer.
and I could go on.....
So unless you've read some of the scientific views behind belief in God I would say you're really not being an impartial juror.
These men all saw "proof" very clearly in the science they studied. They saw proof. Have you looked at the evidence they looked at?
Mind you, I'm not at all saying that each one of those men are believers in the God of the Bible (though most are).
But I'm saying they were/are not atheists... and that was based upon the science they observed in their respective fields.
To them, there was clear proof atheism was not an option.
>Your link does not seem work.
Not sure why? I did just click through all three and they worked. Maybe try again or just google the link? The video series by Dr. James Tour on abiogenesis is excellent.
>Also, for all we know there are aliens out there
But how is this also not an appeal to ignorance fallacy? It seems like the pot is calling the kettle black (to use an old idiom.)
Since science does not know (and I have heard others appeal to aliens as well), we have a word for this. It's called faith. You can believe aliens were involved or that one day science will shows us the way, but it is called faith. Having faith is not limited to theists.
Additionally, aliens does dont solve the problem, it only kicks the can down the road.
>in the middle of the Pacific without technogical aid or nearby land would be nigh impossible.
Yes. Again this is more mathematical probability against random chance. Even on this habitable planet, only a small percentage can even sustain life. So more proof of the mathematical improbability of randomness producing life.
>Additionally, possibly quantum physics? But let's not get into that massive headache here.
Ok thank you!!! Space is limited here online. Lol.
>Or the universe can constantly die and reform. This is called the Big Bounce Theory
Yes, I am familiar with that too. But again it only kicks the can down the road. And additionally it then points to matter is being eternal. Which creates a whole new set of problems.
Additionally, as stated above, someone might believe this, but without evidence it's called faith, not science.
>So if possibly an infinite number of universes just like ours could had existed
Again, this is just theoretical and therefore just an avenue of faith, not science.
My ultimate point is not what as possible but what is probable. Sure anything is possible but not everything is probable.
>talking about a process that took a very ridiculously long time, again hundreds of millions to billions of years,
Again I don't think so because we don't observe complexity arising out of randomness. Explosions don't produce intelligence. DNA is an intelligent code. Additionally this violates the second law of Thermodynamics. If the Big Bang occurred then theoretically there should be no Intelligence coming out of that. According to the second law that is.
>Nothing is truly impossible or improbable.
It sounds like a religious statement and not a statement of science. And I would disagree with the second word - improbable. Yes things are certainly improbable.
I can have the completely disassembled parts of a very expensive watch put into a box and begin to shake the box for thousands upon thousands of years. I do not believe it will ever form back into a perfectly functioning fine tuned watch ever again, no matter how long I shake it. So yes some things are very improbable so much so that they are theoretically impossible.
>If you went back three thousand years and told people that those specks of lights in the sky are massive balls of fire thousands
This is apples and oranges. We're not talking about probability here we're talking about a lack of understanding of people thousands of years ago. Again, think about the parts of a watch shaking in a box. We understand all the parts involved and at that point it becomes only mathematics. That is a different situation than people not understanding what alrrasy exists, which has nothing to do with probability. And that is the difference between something that already exists (like stars) - that they didn't see it clearly - versus something that is required to happen yet is virtually improbable.
>What we know as improbable or impossible is highly dependent on our available knowledge.
Bingo!!! And that is why we also say the same things as theists, when presented with questions that we simply don't know the answer to. (Why does God allow xyz?) When we say that we don't have all the available knowledge for that, we are then ridiculed by atheists with - your God doesn't exist. Seems to be double standard.
>Also, if we were designed, then why are our bodies so prone to weakness and illnesses.
Because we live in a world that is not perfect. It has become infected with what the Bible calls sin. And Jesus comes to offer us new life on a different level after death.
This is exactly the message of the Gospel!!!! (sorry but I get excited about this. LOL.)
Death exists here, humans need to have longer (everlasting) Life - or we will ONLY get to live in this world - before being extinguished – like a candle.
That is exactly why Jesus says He came to bring us LIFE! (John 10:10) “I have come that they might have life…” Those who trust in Christ will live forever after death.
Eternal life. That's the offer on the table from Jesus Christ.
>Can you really be sure he said that quote without any sort of societal pressure?
That was just a sample quote there are others. For example:
Allan Sandage (arguably the greatest astronomer of the 20th century), left atheism.
He says, “The [scientific] world is too complicated in all parts and interconnections to be due to chance alone,”
Read more here:
https://thinkingmatters.org.nz/2017/11/allan-sandage/
Christopher Isham (perhaps Britain's greatest quantum cosmologist), a believer in God's existence.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Isham
Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D also left atheism. Was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of human DNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.
Wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
Also, these simple yet powerful quotes from men of science:
“There is no conflict between science and religion. Our knowledge of God is made larger with every discovery we make about the world.”
–Joseph H. Taylor, Jr., who received the 1993 Nobel Prize in Physics for the discovery of the first known binary pulsar.
“I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know his thoughts; the rest are details.”
–Albert Einstein
“One way to learn the mind of the Creator is to study His creation. We must pay God the compliment of studying His work of art and this should apply to all realms of human thought. A refusal to use our intelligence honestly is an act of contempt for Him who gave us that intelligence.”
— Physicist Ernest Walton, who won the Nobel Prize in Physics for his experiments done at Cambridge University, and so became the first person in history to artificially split the atom.
And
“God created everything by number, weight and measure.”
“In the absence of any other proof, the thumb alone would convince me of God’s existence.”
—Sir Isaac Newton,
“I have concluded that we are in a world made by rules created by an intelligence. Believe me, everything that we call chance today won’t make sense anymore. To me it is clear that we exist in a plan which is governed by rules that were created, shaped by a universal intelligence and not by chance.”
–Michio Kaku, theoretical physicist and string theory pioneer.
And I could go on and on and on and on.
So unless you've read some of the scientific views behind belief in God I would say you're really not being an impartial juror.
Mind you, I'm not saying that each one of those men are believers in the God of the Bible. But they are just not pure atheists based upon science.
>Lastly, I would like to add that I could had been a Hindu and apply alot of your examples (like the bio-OS programmer, and the unseen Choreographer) to Brahma, the God of Creation
What I'm arguing here for is really against atheism, not for specifically the God of the Bible. Once I can get a person to not be an atheist then we can fine-tune it even more to show which God is more probable.
>Ironically, my case is the inverse of yours. I grew up in a Protestant
Lol. I grew up as a Jewish kid with a whole bunch of Catholics. As the years went by one went to Columbia University another went to law school. But who becomes a person on fire for Jesus Christ in the whole group. The Jewish kid. Lol.
Incidentally my family kicked me out because of my faith. Most Jewish people want nothing to do with Jesus. Thankfully we made up after a year or two. But what it did was force me to study to defend my faith against my parents attacks. Which really were of no accord, since they had not studied this and were easily answered. But it did force me into the mode of study, study, study.... and defending my faith. Which I've done for the past 35 years now.
Sadly, I don't see any large percentage of Christians studying their faith.
Have you read "The case for faith" by former atheist Lee Stroble. Excellent material. I believe if you search for it with the letters PDF, you'll find a free copy online.
Ok. Be well.
The head of the NIH, Francis Collins, wrote a fantastic book that offers a good primer on how somebody can be both religious and a scientist.
Sure.
Take a look at these great scientific minds and their thoughts on God's existence.
Allan Sandage (arguably the greatest astronomer of the 20th century), left atheism.
He says, “The [scientific] world is too complicated in all parts and interconnections to be due to chance alone,”
Read more here:
https://thinkingmatters.org.nz/2017/11/allan-sandage/
Christopher Isham (perhaps Britain's greatest quantum cosmologist), a believer in God's existence.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Isham
Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D
Was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of human DNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.
Wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
-Dr. James Tour, voted one of the top 10 chemists in the world. A strong theist and one of the world's leading chemists in the field of nanotechnology. All his degrees and academic honors are here. Too many to list. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Tour
He has a podcast and YouTube channel that is specifically made to show how science points to a Creator. Interviews many in the scientific fields who also are theists. Watching all his videos will make any honest atheist begin to doubt their atheism.
https://youtube.com/c/DrJamesTour
Also, these simple yet powerful quotes from men of science:
“There is no conflict between science and religion. Our knowledge of God is made larger with every discovery we make about the world.”
–Joseph H. Taylor, Jr., who received the 1993 Nobel Prize in Physics for the discovery of the first known binary pulsar.
“I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know his thoughts; the rest are details.”
–Albert Einstein
“One way to learn the mind of the Creator is to study His creation. We must pay God the compliment of studying His work of art and this should apply to all realms of human thought. A refusal to use our intelligence honestly is an act of contempt for Him who gave us that intelligence.”
— Physicist Ernest Walton, who won the Nobel Prize in Physics for his experiments done at Cambridge University, and so became the first person in history to artificially split the atom.
“I believe that the more thoroughly science is studied, the further does it take us from anything comparable to atheism.”
And
“If you study science deep enough and long enough, it will force you to believe in God.”
—Lord William Kelvin, who was noted for his theoretical work on thermodynamics, the concept of absolute zero and the Kelvin temperature scale based upon it.
“God created everything by number, weight and measure.”
“In the absence of any other proof, the thumb alone would convince me of God’s existence.”
—Sir Isaac Newton,
This is how we know God exists.
There are in theory two main explanations on the table for the universe's existing, life existing, etc.
1) completely natural causes 2) Theism/God
If one choice can be shown to be so mathematically improbable, so as to be functionally nil, then logically the remaining theory must be correct.
This would not be an appeal to ignorance, but rather deductive reasoning.
And this is exactly why some people in the science field understand that God does exist. They looked at the mathematical probability of the first one (only nature doing this all) and say it's virtually nil.
Therefore, the other possibility is true by virtue of deductive reasoning.
Logic tells me this....
Software is engineered.
Things that are engineered have a mind that designed it.
Things that are engineered are a product of thought. I have no idea who was on the team that programmed my OS. But I am 100% sure there was a thinking mind(s) behind my OS.
So too, DNA is a chemical OS. Random chance does not write software. A thinking mind writes complex code.
This is the first evidence that we were Created, Designed, from a Engineer, not a product of chance.
This is the first step in seeing the mind of God. This is proof of God's existence that these great minds understood.
Perhaps your atheism has not led you to read any of these great scientific minds and their thoughts on God's existence. Let me encourage you to do so because their writings are very well respected.
Allan Sandage (arguably the greatest astronomer of the 20th century), left atheism.
He says, “The [scientific] world is too complicated in all parts and interconnections to be due to chance alone,”
Read more here:
https://thinkingmatters.org.nz/2017/11/allan-sandage/
"You may fly to the ends of the world and find no God but the Author of Salvation."
James Clerk Maxwell, a deeply committed Christian. Also, a Scientist and Mathematician who has influenced all of modern day physics and voted one of the top three physicists of all time.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Clerk_Maxwell
Albert Einstein once said of him, 'I stand not on the shoulders of Newton, but on the shoulders of James Clerk Maxwell.'
Christopher Isham (perhaps Britain's greatest quantum cosmologist), a believer in God's existence.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Isham
Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D sees evidence from science.
He was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of human DNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.
He wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
Also... these simple yet powerful quotes from men of science:
“There is no conflict between science and religion. Our knowledge of God is made larger with every discovery we make about the world.”
–Joseph H. Taylor, Jr., who received the 1993 Nobel Prize in Physics for the discovery of the first known binary pulsar.
And this:
"I build molecules for a living. I can't begin to tell you how difficult that job is. I stand in awe of God because of what he has done through his creation. My faith has been increased through my research. Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God."
-Dr. James Tour, voted one of the top 10 chemists in the world. A strong theist and one of the world's leading chemists in the field of nanotechnology.
Watch this video on abiogenesis by Dr. James Tour.
Here is his bio: https://profiles.rice.edu/faculty/james-tour
This lecture of his is one of the best ever given on the topic of abiogenesis. There is a reason he was voted one of the top chemists in the world by his peers.
He also goes much more in depth with a 13 episode series on abiogenesis. Here: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLILWudw_84t2THBvJZFyuLA0qvxwrIBDr
“One way to learn the mind of the Creator is to study His creation. We must pay God the compliment of studying His work of art and this should apply to all realms of human thought. A refusal to use our intelligence honestly is an act of contempt for Him who gave us that intelligence.”
— Physicist Ernest Walton, who won the Nobel Prize in Physics for his experiments done at Cambridge University, and so became the first person in history to artificially split the atom.
“I believe that the more thoroughly science is studied, the further does it take us from anything comparable to atheism.”
And
“If you study science deep enough and long enough, it will force you to believe in God.”
—Lord William Kelvin, who was noted for his theoretical work on thermodynamics, the concept of absolute zero and the Kelvin temperature scale based upon it.
“God created everything by number, weight and measure.”
—Sir Isaac Newton,
“I have concluded that we are in a world made by rules created by an intelligence. Believe me, everything that we call chance today won’t make sense anymore. To me it is clear that we exist in a plan which is governed by rules that were created, shaped by a universal intelligence and not by chance.”
–Michio Kaku, theoretical physicist and string theory pioneer.
and I could go on.....
So unless you've read some of the scientific views behind belief in God I would say you're really not being an impartial juror.
These men all saw "proof" very clearly in the science they studied. They saw proof. Have you looked at the evidence they looked at?
Mind you, I'm not at all saying that each one of those men are believers in the God of the Bible (though most are).
But I'm saying they were/are not atheists... and that was based upon the science they observed in their respective fields.
To them, there was clear proof atheism was not an option.
In my humble opinion, this is how we can know God exists.
There are in theory two main explanations on the table for the universe's existing, life existing, etc.
1) completely natural causes 2) Theism/God
If one choice can be shown to be so mathematically improbable, so as to be functionally nil, then logically the remaining theory must be correct.
This would not be an appeal to ignorance, but rather deductive reasoning.
And this is exactly why many people in the science field understand that God does exist. They looked at the mathematical probability of the first one (only nature doing this all) and say it's virtually nil.
Therefore, the other possibility is true by virtue of deductive reasoning.
Logic tells me this....
Software is engineered.
Things that are engineered have a mind that designed it.
Things that are engineered are a product of thought. I have no idea who was on the team that programmed my OS. But I am 100% sure there was a thinking mind(s) behind my OS.
So too, DNA is a chemical OS. Random chance does not write software. A thinking mind writes complex code.
This is the first evidence that we were Created, Designed, from a Engineer, not a product of chance.
This is the first step in seeing the mind of God. This is proof of God's existence that these great minds understood.
Perhaps your atheism has not led you to read any of these great scientific minds and their thoughts on God's existence. Let me encourage you to do so because their writings are very well respected.
Allan Sandage (arguably the greatest astronomer of the 20th century), left atheism.
He says, “The [scientific] world is too complicated in all parts and interconnections to be due to chance alone,”
Read more here:
https://thinkingmatters.org.nz/2017/11/allan-sandage/
"You may fly to the ends of the world and find no God but the Author of Salvation."
James Clerk Maxwell, a deeply committed Christian. Also, a Scientist and Mathematician who has influenced all of modern day physics and voted one of the top three physicists of all time.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Clerk_Maxwell
Albert Einstein once said of him, 'I stand not on the shoulders of Newton, but on the shoulders of James Clerk Maxwell.'
Christopher Isham (perhaps Britain's greatest quantum cosmologist), a believer in God's existence.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Isham
Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D also left atheism after seeing the evidence from science.
He was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of human DNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.
He wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744.
And this:
"I build molecules for a living. I can't begin to tell you how difficult that job is. I stand in awe of God because of what he has done through his creation. My faith has been increased through my research. Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God."
-Dr. James Tour, voted one of the top 10 chemists in the world. A strong theist and one of the world's leading chemists in the field of nanotechnology.
He shows here how complex and unlikely atheistic abiogenesis is, due to its extreme complexity.
He also goes much more in depth with a 13 episode series on abiogenesis. Here: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLILWudw_84t2THBvJZFyuLA0qvxwrIBDr
“One way to learn the mind of the Creator is to study His creation. We must pay God the compliment of studying His work of art and this should apply to all realms of human thought. A refusal to use our intelligence honestly is an act of contempt for Him who gave us that intelligence.”
— Physicist Ernest Walton, who won the Nobel Prize in Physics for his experiments done at Cambridge University, and so became the first person in history to artificially split the atom.
And this....
“I have concluded that we are in a world made by rules created by an intelligence. Believe me, everything that we call chance today won’t make sense anymore. To me it is clear that we exist in a plan which is governed by rules that were created, shaped by a universal intelligence and not by chance.”
–Michio Kaku, theoretical physicist and string theory pioneer.
and I could go on.....
These men all saw "proof" very clearly in the science they studied. They saw proof. So maybe take a look at the evidence they looked at?
Mind you, I'm not at all saying that each one of those men are believers in the God of the Bible (though most are).
But I'm saying they were/are not atheists... and that was based upon the science they observed in their respective fields.
To them, there was clear proof atheism was not an option.
Read the product description on "Return of the God Hypothesis: Three Scientific Discoveries That Reveal the Mind Behind the Universe." It has many scientist PhD's giving it a good review for making the logical/scientific case for God's existence like this:
"A meticulously researched, lavishly illustrated, and thoroughly argued case against the new atheism....." Dr. Brian Keating, Chancellor’s Distinguished Professor of Physics, University of California, San Diego,
Twenty Arguments God's Existence.
https://www.peterkreeft.com/topics-more/20_arguments-gods-existence.htm
Dr. Frank Turek "I don't have enough faith to be an atheist" : https://youtu.be/ybjG3tdArE0
Also this.
Dr. William Lane Craig lovingly demolishes atheism.
I also recommend:
https://www.reasonablefaith.org/
And here is a great read from a former atheist. Book is called "The case for a Creator" by Lee Stroble. It is an older book so it can be found for only a few dollars on ebay.
This book, Also by him "The case for Faith" is available as a free download. I would highly recommend it.
Just Google the book title and free pdf. You can read it free.
Also, the classic book by CS Lewis called Mere Christianity.
On the science side:
Signature in the Cell: DNA and the Evidence for Intelligent Design (free pdf).
Read this excellent summary on the fine-tuning of the universe from an MIT graduate (scientist) who says the same thing. His Doctorate is in two fields: Earth sciences and physics.
http://geraldschroeder.com/wordpress/?page_id=49#
Hope this helps.
Perhaps your atheism has not led you to read any of these great scientific minds and their thoughts on God's existence. Let me encourage you to do so because their writings are very well respected.
Allan Sandage (arguably the greatest astronomer of the 20th century), left atheism.
He says, “The [scientific] world is too complicated in all parts and interconnections to be due to chance alone,”
Read more here:
https://thinkingmatters.org.nz/2017/11/allan-sandage/
"You may fly to the ends of the world and find no God but the Author of Salvation."
James Clerk Maxwell, a deeply committed Christian. Also, a Scientist and Mathematician who has influenced all of modern day physics and voted one of the top three physicists of all time.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Clerk_Maxwell
Albert Einstein once said of him, 'I stand not on the shoulders of Newton, but on the shoulders of James Clerk Maxwell.'
Christopher Isham (perhaps Britain's greatest quantum cosmologist), a believer in God's existence based upon the science he sees.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Isham
Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D also left atheism after seeing the evidence from science.
He was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of human DNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.
He wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
Also... these simple yet powerful quotes from men of science:
“There is no conflict between science and religion. Our knowledge of God is made larger with every discovery we make about the world.”
–Joseph H. Taylor, Jr., who received the 1993 Nobel Prize in Physics for the discovery of the first known binary pulsar.
And this:
"I build molecules for a living. I can't begin to tell you how difficult that job is. I stand in awe of God because of what he has done through his creation. My faith has been increased through my research. Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God."
-Dr. James Tour, voted one of the top 10 chemists in the world. A strong theist and one of the world's leading chemists in the field of nanotechnology.
He shows here how complex and unlikely atheistic abiogenesis is, due to its extreme complexity.
He also goes much more in depth with a 13 episode series on abiogenesis. Here: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLILWudw_84t2THBvJZFyuLA0qvxwrIBDr
“One way to learn the mind of the Creator is to study His creation. We must pay God the compliment of studying His work of art and this should apply to all realms of human thought. A refusal to use our intelligence honestly is an act of contempt for Him who gave us that intelligence.”
— Physicist Ernest Walton, who won the Nobel Prize in Physics for his experiments done at Cambridge University, and so became the first person in history to artificially split the atom.
“I believe that the more thoroughly science is studied, the further does it take us from anything comparable to atheism.”
And
“If you study science deep enough and long enough, it will force you to believe in God.”
—William Kelvin, who was noted for his theoretical work on thermodynamics, the concept of absolute zero and the Kelvin temperature scale based upon it.
“God created everything by number, weight and measure.”
—Sir Isaac Newton,
“I have concluded that we are in a world made by rules created by an intelligence. Believe me, everything that we call chance today won’t make sense anymore. To me it is clear that we exist in a plan which is governed by rules that were created, shaped by a universal intelligence and not by chance.”
–Michio Kaku, theoretical physicist and string theory pioneer.
and I could go on.....
So unless you've read some of the scientific views behind belief in God I would say you're really not being an impartial juror.
These men all saw "proof" very clearly in the science they studied. They saw proof. Have you looked at the evidence they looked at?
Mind you, I'm not at all saying that each one of those men are believers in the God of the Bible (but most were).
But I'm saying they were/are not atheists... and that was based upon the science they observed in their respective fields.
To them, there was clear proof atheism was not an option based upon science.
>I understand why you believe all that,
No, you literally don't understand. There is so much evidence for God that I am 100% sure you have not considered.
>there is absolutely zero objective proof that he even exists
Nonsense. For an atheist to say "there is no proof" shows that either they have not done their homework to see what great minds saw to lead them to belief in God, or.... They refuse to even consider these issues.
Mind you, I'm not saying "believe because they believe", but rather look at the reasons why they published books, made videos, etc saying why (from science) they believe.
These men did follow the evidence and it led them to a belief that chance did not/ could not do this all.
Watch this video on abiogenesis by a strong theist named Dr. James Tour.
Here is his bio: https://profiles.rice.edu/faculty/james-tour
This lecture of his is one of the best ever given on the topic of abiogenesis. There is a reason he was voted one of the top chemists in the world by his peers.
Information, code, complex structures all come from thoughts, from engineering minds, not random chance.
The mathematical probability of Life forming by chance. It's not possible from a logical point of view.
For instance I can look at any building and tell you that there was an architect behind it. I may not know who the architect was, but I am 100% sure that every building had somebody designing it before they built it. That random chance could not have made any building. That's logical to me.
The same thing is true with a single cell. Or the human body. It's so utterly complex.... and logic tells me this: complex, functional, intelligent things are required to have a designing mind behind them. Chaos does not produce order. Chaos does not produce information. Life (DNA) contains information, it is orderly to the Nth degree.
To put it in extremely basic terms, it's like this.... if I was walking along a beach on a deserted island in the ocean, and I thought no one was on the island. And I walked along and then on the sand I suddenly see somebody wrote , John loves Sally, inside a big heart in the sand.
I can assume one of two things. Either that theocean waves did that by chance, or I am not alone on the island, that there is a thinking mind that wrote that.
For me, logic clearly dictates the second one.
There had to be a thinking mind that wrote that. So we take that same principle and apply it to life or specifically DNA.
DNA is much more complex than John loves Sally. It's a software code that tells the human body what to do. Infinitely more complex than computer software. And software is always written by a thinking Mind. By teams of Engineers.
The Apple or Windows operating systems were written by teams of Engineers. And yet they're child's play compared to how complex the human body and DNA is. So for me that's conclusive evidence that there was a thinking mind behind it all.
And that's the mere starting point for showing God existing.
I am not alone in this line of thought. Great scientists in the past have all seen that design does not happen by chance.
Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D sees the evidence from science.
He was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of human DNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.
He wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
Again, I cannot list all the mathematical formulas here to show the utter complexity of life, but if these great minds say it could not happen by chance, it's something to think about.
This book also does. Read the product description on "Return of the God Hypothesis: Three Scientific Discoveries That Reveal the Mind Behind the Universe."
It has many scientist PhD's giving it a good review for making the logical/scientific case for God's existence like this:
"A meticulously researched, lavishly illustrated, and thoroughly argued case against the new atheism....." Dr. Brian Keating, Chancellor’s Distinguished Professor of Physics, University of California, San Diego,
So all this is just scratching the surface for me to show God exists. We have not even touched upon topics like predictive prophecy, archeology, and more.
There is not an iota of doubt in my mind, God exists.
So unless you've read some of the scientific views behind belief in God I would say you're really not being an impartial juror.
These men all saw "proof" very clearly in the science they studied. They saw proof.
Also try Dr. Frank Turek "I don't have enough faith to be an atheist" : https://youtu.be/ybjG3tdArE0
Also this.
Dr. William Lane Craig lovingly demolishes atheism.
My friend, God exists. You see no evidence for the same reason a criminal cant find a policeman.
Good question. This is how we know God exists. There are in theory two main explanations on the table for the universe's existing, life existing, etc.
1) completely natural causes 2) Theism/God
If one choice can be shown to be so mathematically improbable, so as to be functionally nil, then logically the remaining theory must be correct.
This would not be an appeal to ignorance, but rather deductive reasoning.
And this is exactly why many people in the science field understand that God does exist. They looked at the mathematical probability of the first one (only nature doing this all) and say it's virtually nil.
Therefore, the other possibility is true by virtue of deductive reasoning.
Logic tells me this.... Software is engineered. Things that are engineered have a mind that designed it.
Things that are engineered are a product of thought. I have no idea who was on the team that programmed my OS. But I am 100% sure there was a thinking mind(s) behind my OS.
So too, DNA is a chemical OS. Random chance does not write software. A thinking mind writes complex code.
This is the first evidence that we were Created, Designed, from a Engineer, not a product of chance.
This is the first step in seeing the mind of God.
Take a look at these great scientific minds and their thoughts on God's existence. Let me encourage you to do so because their writings are very well respected.
Allan Sandage (arguably the greatest astronomer of the 20th century), left atheism.
He says, “The [scientific] world is too complicated in all parts and interconnections to be due to chance alone,”
Read more here:
https://thinkingmatters.org.nz/2017/11/allan-sandage/
"You may fly to the ends of the world and find no God but the Author of Salvation."
James Clerk Maxwell, a deeply committed Christian. Also, a Scientist and Mathematician who has influenced all of modern day physics and voted one of the top three physicists of all time.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Clerk_Maxwell
Albert Einstein once said of him, 'I stand not on the shoulders of Newton, but on the shoulders of James Clerk Maxwell.'
Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D also left atheism after seeing the evidence from science.
He was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of human DNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.
He wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
Also... these simple yet powerful quotes from men of science:
“There is no conflict between science and religion. Our knowledge of God is made larger with every discovery we make about the world.”
–Joseph H. Taylor, Jr., who received the 1993 Nobel Prize in Physics for the discovery of the first known binary pulsar.
And this:
"I build molecules for a living. I can't begin to tell you how difficult that job is. I stand in awe of God because of what he has done through his creation. My faith has been increased through my research. Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith."
-Dr. James Tour, voted one of the top 10 chemists in the world. A strong theist and one of the world's leading chemists in the field of nanotechnology.
He shows here how complex and unlikely atheistic abiogenesis is, due to its extreme complexity.
“One way to learn the mind of the Creator is to study His creation. We must pay God the compliment of studying His work of art and this should apply to all realms of human thought. A refusal to use our intelligence honestly is an act of contempt for Him who gave us that intelligence.”
— Physicist Ernest Walton, who won the Nobel Prize in Physics for his experiments done at Cambridge University, and so became the first person in history to artificially split the atom.
“I believe that the more thoroughly science is studied, the further does it take us from anything comparable to atheism.”
—Lord William Kelvin, who was noted for his theoretical work on thermodynamics.
and I could go on.....
So these men all saw "proof" very clearly in the science they studied.
Mind you, I'm not at all saying that each one of those men are believers in the God of the Bible (though most are).
But I'm saying they were/are not atheists... and that was based upon the science they observed in their respective fields.
To them, there was clear proof atheism was not an option.
Read the product description on "Return of the God Hypothesis: Three Scientific Discoveries That Reveal the Mind Behind the Universe." It has many scientist PhD's giving it a good review for making the logical/scientific case for God's existence like this:
"A meticulously researched, lavishly illustrated, and thoroughly argued case against the new atheism....." Dr. Brian Keating, Chancellor’s Distinguished Professor of Physics, University of California, San Diego,
Twenty Arguments God's Existence.
https://www.peterkreeft.com/topics-more/20_arguments-gods-existence.htm
Dr. Frank Turek "I don't have enough faith to be an atheist" : https://youtu.be/ybjG3tdArE0
Also this.
Dr. William Lane Craig lovingly demolishes atheism.
I also recommend:
https://www.reasonablefaith.org/
And here is a great read from a former atheist. Book is called "The case for a Creator" by Lee Stroble. It is an older book so it can be found for only a few dollars on ebay.
This book, Also by him "The case for Faith" is available as a free download. I would highly recommend it.
Just Google the book title and free pdf. You can read it free.
Also, the classic book by CS Lewis called Mere Christianity.
On the science side:
Signature in the Cell: DNA and the Evidence for Intelligent Design (free pdf).
Read this excellent summary on the fine-tuning of the universe from an MIT graduate (scientist) who says the same thing. His Doctorate is in two fields: Earth sciences and physics.
http://geraldschroeder.com/wordpress/?page_id=49#
Oh, and as far as the concept of "spending eternity in hell", that is not who God is. The Bible teaches the lost will stand before God and then suffer proportionally for their sins in hell and then be annihilated (John 3.16 = perish, be destroyed)
Whatever word you would like to use…. The Doctrine is called "Conditional Immortality" and a growing number of believers in Jesus hold to this.
r/conditionalism
www.conditionalimmortality.org
Jesus came to save us from our sins. So much so that Jesus Christ endured the combined sins of the world on the agony of the cross.
That is why people around the globe love Jesus Christ with all their heart.
He wrote a book on it, even. https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
>illogical for an omniscient God who knows one can not believe, to punish such a person anyways
No one is punished for not believing in God as you said. They are punished for their sins.
As far as no choice?
This is not accurate. People do have a choice. People always have a choice. You are equating being 100% convinced with someone simply trusting in Christ.
Look at this interaction Jesus had wirh a man who asked Jesus to heal his son...
"But if you can do anything, take pity on us and help us." "'If you can'?" said Jesus. "Everything is possible for him who believes." Immediately the boy's father exclaimed, "I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!" (Mark 9.22-24)
And any atheist must have a tiny bit of doubt about their atheism. And in that doubt is the place where the seed of faith can be planted. They can say to God exactly what that man above in that quote said.
That is how big mighty 100 foot tell Oak trees grow in a forest. From a tiny seed. Every single one.
You are assuming needing Oak tree sized faith level with being saved from ones sins. God says you only need seed level faith in Christ to be saved from your sins.
Again, Jesus tells us how much faith is required,
"....I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed.... (Matthew 17.20)
Mind you, it is not blind faith we are talking about here, but jury faith. The same faith a jury has after hearing evidence.
And if you reply, "I have seen all the evidence and I am still absolutely sure atheism is true." To that I say either you are lying (saying there is zero evidence) to yourself or you are not reading the right material.
There is plenty of good material out there, even scientists written, to show that this world is no accident, but designed.
Too much to list here.
For instance, Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D
He was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of human DNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.
He wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
So no. I simply do not accept as accurate that you will be judged for not believing in God. You will be judged for your sins.
No one is without excuse as Romans says:
"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." Romans 1.20
My friend, look at the evidence. Read the right lawyers who present excellent arguments.
As far as evidence about Jesus being the Savior.... Two words... Predictive prophecy.
Have you looked into that? The Hebrew Bible, written centuries before Jesus, told us what to look for in the Messiah.
And before you say the prophecies were written after Jesus, the Dead Sea Scrolls are one of the most important archaeological finds of the century, and they (copies of the Old Testament) are clearly dated before the time of Jesus. So the OT and the prophecies were written before Jesus.
Jesus fulfilled those prophecies. Way too much information for this space. This is why we don't follow Jesus out of the blue. We follow him because he fulfills the prophecies.
Absolutely no other false god can claim that. Only the true God tells humanity what to expect.
Volumes are written on this topic.... biblical prophecy.
For instance, God tells Israel the coming Messiah was supposed to be Jewish. That eliminated like 99 % of the world population.
Daniel chapter 9 tells us Messiah would arrive before the Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed. (Rome did this in the year 70.)
Isaiah chapter 53. The Messiah is rejected by his own people, dies for the sins of others, and then is resurrected.
Zechariah chapter 12 tells us the Messiah would be pierced and mourned for.
Isaiah 49.6 tells us the Messiah's message of salvation would reach the entire globe.
They were all written before Jesus.
So God tells Israel the coming Messiah would be Jewish, arrive before an event that happened in the year 70AD, die a cruel death of piercing, be resurrected, influence the entire planet.
How is this not proof? I mean what are the odds a random Jew would do this?
And many, many more prophecies I dont have space to list, all written centuries before Jesus Christ came to Israel.
This is what distinguishes the Hebrew Bible, the New Testament and Jesus Christ from every other world religion.
Predictive prophecy.
God exists. He wishes to save you, not judge you.
>You have one example, this is not a consensus among scientists
Perhaps your atheism has not led you to read any of these great scientific minds and their thoughts on God's existence. Let me encourage you to do so because their writings are very well respected.
Please understand, I am not saying this:
- That all scientists are theists.
What I am saying is this: These Great minds saw, in their studies, that the probability of things they saw all happening by chance was not very likely. That design meant a designer.
And if an atheist has not looked into this area, then really they have not examined the evidence for God that these men saw.
For instance:
Allan Sandage (arguably the greatest astronomer of the 20th century), no longer an atheist.
He says, “The [scientific] world is too complicated in all parts and interconnections to be due to chance alone,”
Read more here:
https://thinkingmatters.org.nz/2017/11/allan-sandage/
"You may fly to the ends of the world and find no God but the Author of Salvation."
James Clerk Maxwell, a deeply committed Christian. Also, a Scientist and Mathematician who has influenced all of modern day physics and voted one of the top three physicists of all time.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Clerk_Maxwell
Albert Einstein once said of him, 'I stand not on the shoulders of Newton, but on the shoulders of James Clerk Maxwell.'
Christopher Isham (perhaps Britain's greatest quantum cosmologist), a believer in God's existence based upon the science he sees.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Isham
Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D
He was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of human DNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.
He wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
Also... these simple yet powerful quotes from men of science:
“There is no conflict between science and religion. Our knowledge of God is made larger with every discovery we make about the world.”
–Joseph H. Taylor, Jr., who received the 1993 Nobel Prize in Physics for the discovery of the first known binary pulsar.
And this:
"I build molecules for a living. I can't begin to tell you how difficult that job is. I stand in awe of God because of what he has done through his creation. My faith has been increased through my research. Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God."
-Dr. James Tour, voted one of the top 10 chemists in the world. A strong theist and one of the world's leading chemists in the field of nanotechnology. All his degrees and academic honors are here. Too many to list. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Tour
He has a podcast and YouTube channel that is specifically made to show how science points to a Creator. Interviews many in the scientific fields who also are theists. Watching all his videos will make any honest atheist begin to doubt their atheism.
https://youtube.com/c/DrJamesTour
“One way to learn the mind of the Creator is to study His creation. We must pay God the compliment of studying His work of art and this should apply to all realms of human thought. A refusal to use our intelligence honestly is an act of contempt for Him who gave us that intelligence.”
— Physicist Ernest Walton, who won the Nobel Prize in Physics for his experiments done at Cambridge University, and so became the first person in history to artificially split the atom.
“I believe that the more thoroughly science is studied, the further does it take us from anything comparable to atheism.”
And
“If you study science deep enough and long enough, it will force you to believe in God.”
—William Kelvin, who was noted for his theoretical work on thermodynamics, the concept of absolute zero and the Kelvin temperature scale based upon it.
“God created everything by number, weight and measure.”
—Sir Isaac Newton,
“I have concluded that we are in a world made by rules created by an intelligence. Believe me, everything that we call chance today won’t make sense anymore. To me it is clear that we exist in a plan which is governed by rules that were created, shaped by a universal intelligence and not by chance.”
–Michio Kaku, theoretical physicist and string theory pioneer.
and I could go on.....
So unless you've read some of the scientific views behind belief in God I would say you're really not being an impartial juror.
These men all saw "proof" very clearly in the science they studied. They saw proof. Have you looked at the evidence they looked at?
Mind you, I'm not at all saying that each one of those men are believers in the God of the Bible (but most were).
But I'm saying they were/are not atheists... and that was based upon the science they observed in their respective fields.
To them, there was clear proof atheism was not an option based upon science.
>Essentially they’re being punished as a consequence of not only their sin, but also their non belief
Again, no one is punished for not believing in God as you said. They are punished for their sins.
>God make this his criteria knowing so many people have no choice?
This is not accurate. People do have a choice. People always have a choice. You are equating being 100% convinced with someone simply trusting in Christ.
Look at this interaction Jesus had wirh a man who asked Jesus to heal his son...
"But if you can do anything, take pity on us and help us." "'If you can'?" said Jesus. "Everything is possible for him who believes." Immediately the boy's father exclaimed, "I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!" (Mark 9.22-24)
And any atheist must have a tiny bit of doubt about their atheism. And in that doubt is the place where the seed of faith can be planted. They can say to God exactly what that man above in that quote said.
That is how big mighty 100 foot tell Oak trees grow in a forest. From a tiny seed. Every single one.
You are assuming needing Oak tree sized faith level with being saved from ones sins. God says you only need seed level faith in Christ to be saved from your sins.
Again, Jesus tells us how much faith is required,
"....I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed.... (Matthew 17.20)
Mind you, it is not blind faith we are talking about here, but jury faith. The same faith a jury has after hearing evidence.
And if you reply, "I have seen all the evidence and I am still absolutely sure atheism is true." To that I say either you are lying (saying there is zero evidence) to yourself or you are not reading the right material.
There is plenty of good material out there, even scientists written, to show that this world is no accident, but designed.
Too much to list here.
For instance, Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D
He was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of human DNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.
He wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
So no. I simply do not accept as accurate that you will be judged for your sins for not believing in God. You will be judged for your sins.
No one is without excuse as Romans says:
"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." Romans 1.20
My friend, look at the evidence. Read the right lawyers who present excellent arguments.
God exists. He wishes to save you, not judge you.
Dr. Francis Collins was the director of the National Institute of Health, and the former director of the Human Genome Project. He's Dr. Fauci's boss, and much of his research has led to treatments for serious diseases. Currently, he's the president's acting science adviser. He's a pretty smart guy.
He's also a Christian, the author of The Language of God and the founder of BioLogos. BioLogos is dedicated to helping people of faith reconcile God's word and God's creation through a proper understanding of science and scripture.
> I am not gonna argue your experience, but how does that help non believers?
Each person comes to the truth differently. For rationalistic, science-minded people like myself, I think that my example demonstrates some principles that can help other atheists :
- You can't force yourself to believe in God. It is a gift that will come to you if you are on the right track.
- One has to seek the truth in virtue. The truth about how we got here, what life is, etc. If one pursues things (vice) like money, sex, entertainment, or fame, the truth will be elusive. Apathy is another huge enemy of truth. Avoid vice, strive for virtues.
- If one honestly digs into science, they'll see more evidence for theism than naturalism.
For example, former atheist and Nobel Laureate Dr. Francis Collins wrote of the evidence in Biology for example :
The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
One should also realize that naturalism doesn't make sense of life by it's own definition. If naturalism is true, then human beings are just temporary biochemical accidents that are reacting to meaningless phenomena. With naturalism, there can not be real lasting truth, knowledge, logic, ethics, justice or meaning. With God as an enduring mind, He enables and justifies all those things. As Malichi 3:6 says "For I am the Lord, I change not".
Honest atheists like Nietzsche realized that naturalism can only lead to Nihilism, which is why Existentialism was developed.. It's Naive Nihilism (pretending that life has meaning) : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existentialism
There is a lot of false information about science out there. Much of my time was spent in weeding through false claims. I believe in Science, not Scientists. Be careful to distinguish actual facts from claims and interpretations.
I don't expect any one thing to change a hard skeptic like I was. I had millions of doubts, but slowly addressed them all and found that theism is more viable.
One way to know if you are on the right track is if the life and teachings of Jesus start to make more and more sense. Finally, one should realize that He was right about everything, and He was predicted centuries before IN WRITING, then changed the world like He said He would.
All that can take a lot of appreciation of History though. It took me years to get comfortable with navigating language, culture and history, then listening to debates.
Sorry for rambling. It is hard to know where to start. Each person is at a different point in their journey and has other motivators.
>You can’t prove it wasn’t aliens, so how do you know it was a god?
There are several things that point to the fact that God exists.
From a logical point of view we have this.
The physical constants of our planet and universe are fine tuned for life. This is what physicists say.
The constants that need to be set to specific values to facilitate the development of human life:
*the gravitational constant,
*the coulomb constant,
*the cosmological constant,
*the habitable zone of our sun
*and many more.
Aliens logically could not have made the universe they would exist inside of.
Also, if a few these constants were changed even the smallest amount, - life as we know it wouldn't exist. We call this fine tuning. And fine tuning is a result of thought.
When we look at the universe and our planet, it is apparent the planet seems to support us perfectly, and that seems really unlikely to happen by chance since more of the universe defaults to the exact opposite of life requirements.
Here are a few articles on this:
"The fine-tuning problem is also treated with great seriousness among contemporary cosmologists, including those committed to naturalism"
And you can read this excellent summary on the fine-tuning of the universe from an MIT graduate (scientist) who says the same thing. He has two PhD's.
http://geraldschroeder.com/wordpress/?page_id=49#
Then we have this: The mathematical probability of Life forming by chance. It's not possible from a logical point of view.
For instance I can look at any building and tell you that there was an architect behind it. I may not know who the architect was, but I am 100% sure that every building had somebody designing it before they built it. That random chance could not have made any building. That's logical to me.
The same thing is true with a single cell. Or the human body. It's so utterly complex.... and logic tells me this: complex, functional, intelligent things are required to have a designing mind behind them. Chaos does not produce order. Chaos does not produce information. Life (DNA) contains information, it is orderly to the Nth degree.
To put it in extremely basic terms, it's like this.... if I was walking along a beach on a deserted island in the ocean, and I thought no one was on the island. And I walked along and then on the sand I suddenly see somebody wrote , John loves Sally, inside a big heart in the sand.
I can assume one of two things. Either that theocean waves did that by chance, or I am not alone on the island, that there is a thinking mind that wrote that.
For me, logic clearly dictates the second one.
There had to be a thinking mind that wrote that. So we take that same principle and apply it to life or specifically DNA.
DNA is much more complex than John loves Sally. It's a software code that tells the human body what to do. Infinitely more complex than computer software. And software is always written by a thinking Mind. By teams of Engineers.
The Apple or Windows operating systems were written by teams of Engineers. And yet they're child's play compared to how complex the human body and DNA is. So for me that's conclusive evidence that there was a thinking mind behind it all.
And that's the mere starting point for showing God existing.
I am not alone in this line of thought. Great scientists in the past have all seen that design does not happen by chance.
Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D sees the evidence from science.
He was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of human DNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.
He wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
And this:
"I build molecules for a living. I can't begin to tell you how difficult that job is. I stand in awe of God because of what he has done through his creation. My faith has been increased through my research. Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God."
-Dr. James Tour, voted one of the top 10 chemists in the world. A strong theist and one of the world's leading chemists in the field of nanotechnology.
He shows here how complex and unlikely atheistic abiogenesis is, due to its extreme complexity.
He also goes much more in depth with a 13 episode series on abiogenesis. Here: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLILWudw_84t2THBvJZFyuLA0qvxwrIBDr
And this:
“I have concluded that we are in a world made by rules created by an intelligence. Believe me, everything that we call chance today won’t make sense anymore. To me it is clear that we exist in a plan which is governed by rules that were created, shaped by a universal intelligence and not by chance.”
–Michio Kaku, theoretical physicist and string theory pioneer.
Again, I cannot list all the mathematical formulas here to show the utter complexity of life, but if these great minds say it could not happen by chance, it's something to think about.
So all this is just scratching the surface for me to show God exists. We have not even touched upon topics like predictive prophecy, archeology, and more.
There is not an iota of doubt in my mind, God exists.
> What where the issues of naturalism
As part of my work in computer science, I worked on some biomolecular models, evolutionary algorithms and modelled cellular systems. I started seeing more and more signs of intelligence and design. I slowly stopped believing that such things could be built by "natural causes".
See the following 9 minute video for some background on one aspect :
Besides the unlikely DNA sequences, protein folding and machines like the Ribosome, the main sign of intelligence that I saw was the synchrony across multiple parts. For a whole system to work, one part would need to remain stable while other parts improve.
I think that Francis Collins (Nobel Laureate) and Sy Garte document this more academically in their books. I stumbled into it as part of my work in tuning evolutionary algorithms and AI.
Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief https://www.amazon.com/dp/1416542744/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_i_7W7D3NG1QK48QBPRT1ST
At the same time, I was studying consciousness and neuroscience. Long story, but there is no evidence of material causation for memory or thinking in brain matter. All signs are that it comes from some transcendent source. It took me years to realize that, so I understand how most people don't get it right away. Dr. David Chalmers is an atheist who gave a TED talk that summarized the evidence. That led me to Panpsychism and then Deism then Theism.
Dr. David Chalmers TED talk : https://youtu.be/uhRhtFFhNzQ
>> If you can't explain consciousness in terms of the existing fundamentals — space, time, mass, charge — then as a matter of logic, you need to expand the list. The natural thing to do is to postulate consciousness itself as something fundamental, a fundamental building block of nature. This doesn't mean you suddenly can't do science with it. This opens up the way for you to do science with it.
The issue with all of these things is the heart condition. Paul, Thomas, etc were already strong theists. Their theology just needed "fine tuning" so to speak.
If God did any of those "magic tricks" do you really think you would believe? A few days later you would be questioning if it really happened, was there someone playing a trick on you, etc. Why? Because "someone convinced against their will is of the same opinion still" as the old saying goes.
You are an atheist. There is plenty of evidence that God exists by simply looking at the natural world.
This is a much better approach to take to change your will.
There are several things that point to the fact that God exists.
From a logical point of view we have this.
The physical constants of the universe and our planet are fine tuned for life. This is what physicists say.
The constants that need to be set to specific values to facilitate the development of human life:
*the gravitational constant,
*the coulomb constant,
*the cosmological constant,
*the habitable zone of our sun
*and many more.
If a few these constants were changed even the smallest amount, - life as we know it wouldn't exist. We call this fine tuning. And fine tuning is a result of thought.
When we look at the universe and our planet, it is apparent the planet seems to support us perfectly, and that seems really unlikely to happen by chance since more of the universe defaults to the exact opposite of life requirements.
Here are a few articles on this:
"The fine-tuning problem is also treated with great seriousness among contemporary cosmologists, including those committed to naturalism"
And you can read this excellent summary on the fine-tuning of the universe from an MIT graduate (scientist) who says the same thing. He has two PhD's.
http://geraldschroeder.com/wordpress/?page_id=49#
Then we have this: The mathematical probability of Life forming by chance. It's not possible from a logical point of view.
For instance I can look at any building and tell you that there was an architect behind it. I may not know who the architect was, but I am 100% sure that every building had somebody designing it before they built it. That random chance could not have made any building. That's logical to me.
The same thing is true with a single cell. Or the human body. It's so utterly complex.... and logic tells me this: complex, functional, intelligent things are required to have a designing mind behind them. Chaos does not produce order. Chaos does not produce information. Life (DNA) contains information, it is orderly to the Nth degree.
To put it in extremely basic terms, it's like this.... if I was walking along a beach on a deserted island in the ocean, and I thought no one was on the island. And I walked along and then on the sand I suddenly see somebody wrote , John loves Sally, inside a big heart in the sand.
I can assume one of two things. Either that theocean waves did that by chance, or I am not alone on the island, that there is a thinking mind that wrote that.
For me, logic clearly dictates the second one.
There had to be a thinking mind that wrote that. So we take that same principle and apply it to life or specifically DNA.
DNA is much more complex than John loves Sally. It's a software code that tells the human body what to do. Infinitely more complex than computer software. And software is always written by a thinking Mind. By teams of Engineers.
The Apple or Windows operating systems were written by teams of Engineers. And yet they're child's play compared to how complex the human body and DNA is. So for me that's conclusive evidence that there was a thinking mind behind it all.
And that's the mere starting point for showing God existing.
I am not alone in this line of thought. Great scientists in the past have all seen that design does not happen by chance.
Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D sees the evidence from science.
He was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of human DNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.
He wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
And this:
"I build molecules for a living. I can't begin to tell you how difficult that job is. I stand in awe of God because of what he has done through his creation. My faith has been increased through my research. Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God."
-Dr. James Tour, voted one of the top 10 chemists in the world. A strong theist and one of the world's leading chemists in the field of nanotechnology.
He shows here how complex and unlikely atheistic abiogenesis is, due to its extreme complexity.
He also goes much more in depth with a 13 episode series on abiogenesis. Here: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLILWudw_84t2THBvJZFyuLA0qvxwrIBDr
And this:
“I have concluded that we are in a world made by rules created by an intelligence. Believe me, everything that we call chance today won’t make sense anymore. To me it is clear that we exist in a plan which is governed by rules that were created, shaped by a universal intelligence and not by chance.”
–Michio Kaku, theoretical physicist and string theory pioneer.
Again, I cannot list all the mathematical formulas here to show the utter complexity of life, but if these great minds say it could not happen by chance, it's something to think about.
So all this is just scratching the surface for me to show God exists. We have not even touched upon topics like predictive prophecy, archeology, and more.
There is not an iota of doubt in my mind, God exists.
>to create a universe when they don’t have any proof of God to start with.
Um, I dont believe you have looked into this. Not saying you have to agree with proof offered, but there is literally mountains writen on this.
There are several things that point to the fact that God exists.
From a logical point of view we have this.
The universe is fine tuned for life. Fine tuning is the result of design/thought. The constants that need to be set to specific values to facilitate the development of human life:
*the gravitational constant,
*the coulomb constant,
*the cosmological constant,
*the habitable zone of our sun
*and many more.
If a few these constants were changed even the smallest amount, - life as we know it wouldn't exist.
When we look at the universe and the planet, it is apparent the world seems to support us perfectly, and that seems really unlikely to happen by chance.
"The fine-tuning problem is also treated with great seriousness among contemporary cosmologists, including those committed to naturalism"
And you can read this excellent summary on the fine-tuning of the universe from an MIT graduate (scientist) who says the same thing. He has two PhD's.
http://geraldschroeder.com/wordpress/?page_id=49#
Then we have this: The mathematical probability of Life forming by chance. It's not possible from a logical point of view.
For instance I can look at any building and tell you that there was an architect behind it. I may not know who the architect was, but I am 100% sure that every building had somebody designing it before they built it. That random chance could not have made any building. That's logical to me.
The same thing is true with a single cell. Or the human body. It's so utterly complex.... and logic tells me this: complex, functional, intelligent things are required to have a designing mind behind them. Chaos does not produce order. Chaos does not produce information. Life (DNA) contains information, it is orderly to the Nth degree.
To put it in extremely basic terms, it's like this.... if I was walking along a beach on a deserted island in the ocean, and I thought no one was on the island. And I walked along and then on the sand I suddenly see somebody wrote , John loves Sally, inside a big heart in the sand.
I can assume one of two things. Either that theocean waves did that by chance, or I am not alone on the island, that there is a thinking mind that wrote that.
For me, logic clearly dictates the second one.
There had to be a thinking mind that wrote that. So we take that same principle and apply it to life or specifically DNA.
DNA is much more complex than John loves Sally. It's a software code that tells the human body what to do. Infinitely more complex than computer software. And software is always written by a thinking Mind. By teams of Engineers.
The Apple or Windows operating systems were written by teams of Engineers. And yet they're child's play compared to how complex the human body and DNA is. So for me that's conclusive evidence that there was a thinking mind behind it all.
And that's the mere starting point for showing God existing.
I am not alone in this line of thought. Great scientists in the past have all seen that design does not happen by chance.
Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D sees the evidence from science.
He was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of human DNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.
He wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
And this:
"I build molecules for a living. I can't begin to tell you how difficult that job is. I stand in awe of God because of what he has done through his creation. My faith has been increased through my research. Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God."
-Dr. James Tour, voted one of the top 10 chemists in the world. A strong theist and one of the world's leading chemists in the field of nanotechnology.
He shows here how complex and unlikely atheistic abiogenesis is, due to its extreme complexity.
He also goes much more in depth with a 13 episode series on abiogenesis. Here: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLILWudw_84t2THBvJZFyuLA0qvxwrIBDr
And this:
“I have concluded that we are in a world made by rules created by an intelligence. Believe me, everything that we call chance today won’t make sense anymore. To me it is clear that we exist in a plan which is governed by rules that were created, shaped by a universal intelligence and not by chance.”
–Michio Kaku, theoretical physicist and string theory pioneer.
Again, I cannot list all the mathematical formulas here to show the utter complexity of life, but if these great minds say it could not happen by chance, it's something to think about.
So all this is just scratching the surface for me to show God exists. We have not even touched upon topics like predictive prophecy, archeology, and more.
There is not an iota of doubt in my mind, God exists.
PART 2 of 2
> You have plenty of people who think it’s objectively immoral for two gay people to get married. Yet you have plenty of other people on the opposing side. Who gets to decide if it’s moral or not?
That's my point. Without an objective basis, there can be no objective truth. Furthermore, without God as an enduring mind that preserves all information, and consistently evaluates it, there can be no lasting knowledge, truth, justice, ethics or meaning. Life would just be a temporary chemical reaction. It's beautiful how the Bible happens to mention these deep philosophical truths, such as Malichi 3:6 "...for I am the Lord, I change not".
With Christianity, God revealed that He created us as men and women, to be fruitful and multiply. This Earth is God's farm for souls. In that light, it is objectively "bad" to invent other genders, and to live for one's own pleasures.
> Morality is so wishy washy, there’s plenty of gray areas, we just try to make it black and white so we can all live in harmony. I definitely do think Christian morality gives our society some moral structure though
That's nice of you to recognize the moral structure. I think that a lot of people take the JudeoChristian moral fabric for granted. I think you can understand Christian morals through the virtue model that I mentioned above. It makes perfect sense to me because if you think about what it takes to live forever. To live forever, we have to weed out all destructive ideas (sin). Bad ideas would eventually grow like cancer. This is evident to me in regular life, such as some situations like the military have a zero tolerance policy. Disobedience can wind up killing everyone in some situations.
> I don’t choose to not believe that Jesus is God. Just like I don’t choose not to believe in Zeus.
I am intimately familiar with that mindset, but there is a deeper choice that you probably already made about the world and how you got here. e.g. naturalism/darwinism. By making a choice to believe those things, you've chosen not to consider our Creator. I believe that most children are born with intuition for God, and it takes years of miseducation to drum it out of them. Sadly, our modern society calls that "progress" and "enlightenment". Here are a few references about how children have an intuitive sense for God:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/07/110714103828.htm
>> New research finds that humans have natural tendencies to believe in gods and an afterlife. Research suggests that people across many different cultures instinctively believe that some part of their mind, soul or spirit lives on after-death. The studies demonstrate that people are natural 'dualists' finding it easy to conceive of the separation of the mind and the body.
.
> If I educate myself on the topics yet still come to the conclusion that I don’t believe, what else can I really do?
If you currently believe in naturalism/darwinism, I would recommend looking deeper. I know several medical professionals who were atheist during med school, and slowly saw how the systems of life required design. That was one of my first steps towards theism as well. Dr. Francis Collins is a famous example. He led the Human Genome project and is a nobel prize laureate. He wrote the following book about how life is evidence of God :
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
There's many more cases, like Dr. Anthony Flew. He was one of the most famous atheists of the 20th century. Atheists buried his name when he became a theist. He wrote this book about it:
"There is a God. How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Change His Mind" :
https://www.amazon.com/There-God-Notorious-Atheist-Changed/dp/0061335304
> Would I really be sent to hell simply for not believing a claim? Especially after making the effort to really understand the claim.
Your own conscious will be your judge. God inspires us to seek the highest truths. It took me over 20 years, but I finally started seeing how theism made more sense than naturalism. If I can do it, anyone can. It took me so long because I was taught a lot of claims in the name of science that I found out later not to be true. There is Dunning Kruger curve within science that a lot of people don't follow the whole way.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
> Especially to the people who didn’t grow up in a Christian environment, those people are the ones who will be less inclined to believe in Christianity and Jesus.
It is Catholic Doctrine that all kinds of people can be saved. God calls virtually everyone to Heaven. The tough part is that we have to face the truth of our lives to get into Heaven, because everyone there is spiritually naked. Romans chapter 2 mentions this in the Bible. In that light, I think a lot of Muslims will be saved, Hindus, Buddhist, etc, and some agnostics. Ironically, Christians will be held to a higher standard because they were given the most correct information.
> It seems like most people define “supernatural” things as stuff that doesn’t conform to the same laws of the universe as everything else.
Yeah, these terms ironically got reversed over the centuries. The modern sense of the word "natural" means some type of being "self-existent". Only God meets that definition according to Christianity, because He is uncreated. Everything in our Universe, including the Universe itself is a temporary creation of His. So, in modern terms, the Universe "unnatural" from a Christian perspective. Let me know if that doesn't make sense.
> Could it have been any other way?
I definitely believe so. Look at how variable electromagnetism is for example. It has trillions of trillions of potential values and properties, yet there is only one combination that happens to make atoms and molecules. This 6 minute video explains that better: https://youtu.be/EE76nwimuT0
The Earth itself also has many unnecessary properties that are not likely a mere coincidence :
- We are at just the right distance from the Sun.
- The Himalayan mountains happen to rise high enough to cool the northern hemisphere
- The Atlantic Current happens to feed the Atlantic ocean and keep Europe from freezing over.
- The Moon happens to be exactly the size to eclipse the Sun.
- The Atmosphere has the right combination of elements.
- The Earth is surrounded by a Magnetosphere, necessary for life
- All the major land-masses just happen to be connectable (walkable) with a small reduction in sea level
- There are all the necessary elements and fuels available to build buildings and vehicles.
The following book goes into much more: https://www.amazon.com/Rare-Earth-Complex-Uncommon-Universe/dp/0387952896
Our bodies have many more unecessary features as well, as well as our psyche's.
Dr. Stuart Burgess is an award winning robotics designer. He has a lot of good talks online about how our bodies are products of design: https://youtu.be/YUbBuWZMzFU
Evolution would drive things to bare minimums. BTW, I don't expect you to believe in God based on these things. They should make you think though.
Archeology shows that the text is consistent with what we find in the dirt. The truth of a matter goes well beyond the analysis of the dirt.
For the claims of Jesus Christ to be true we also look at fields like science, predictive prophecy, etc.
>You are easily manipulated
No, I am Jewish and had to moved out of my families home bc I was convinced after much research yhat Jesus is who he said he was. There is absolutely no space here to print years of research.
>You are easily manipulated
I would say the opposite is true. It is atheists that are easily manipulated. Most atheist arguments are based on emotion.
>that shows there is a god? There Is none!
**ok, the very fact that you don't even know there's any evidence out there **shows me you are like a juror who has not even heard the other side. Seriously. I'm not saying this to be facetious but simply the fact that if you don't know the evidence claimed for God, then you really have not studied this at all.
The fact that you said there is no evidence shows me that really it is 100% of emotion you're basing your statements of atheism on. And I find this fairly typical of atheism.
For instance....
Look at these great minds speaking about God.
For instance:
Allan Sandage (arguably the greatest astronomer of the 20th century), no longer a atheist.
He says, “The [scientific] world is too complicated in all parts and interconnections to be due to chance alone,”
Article also says, "The conversion of Allan Sandage is a testament to the strength of the evidence for theism from modern cosmology."
Read his story here:
https://thinkingmatters.org.nz/2017/11/allan-sandage/
"You may fly to the ends of the world and find no God but the Author of Salvation."
James Clerk Maxwell, a deeply committed Christian. Also, a Scientist and Mathematician who has influenced all of modern day physics and voted one of the top three physicists of all time.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Clerk_Maxwell
Albert Einstein once said of him, 'I stand not on the shoulders of Newton, but on the shoulders of James Clerk Maxwell.'
Christopher Isham (perhaps Britain's greatest quantum cosmologist), a believer in God's existence based upon the science he sees.
Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D
He was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of human DNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.
He wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
And also... these simple yet powerful quotes from men of science:
“There is no conflict between science and religion. Our knowledge of God is made larger with every discovery we make about the world.”
–Joseph H. Taylor, Jr., who received the 1993 Nobel Prize in Physics for the discovery of the first known binary pulsar.
And this:
"I build molecules for a living. I can't begin to tell you how difficult that job is. I stand in awe of God because of what he has done through his creation. My faith has been increased through my research. Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God."
-Dr. James Tour, voted one of the top 10 chemists in the world. A strong theist and one of the world's leading chemists in the field of nanotechnology. All his degrees and academic honors are here. Too many to list. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Tour
He has a podcast and YouTube channel that is specifically made to show how science points to a Creator. Interviews many in the scientific fields who also are theists. Watching all his videos will make any honest atheist begin to doubt their atheism.
https://youtube.com/c/DrJamesTour
“One way to learn the mind of the Creator is to study His creation. We must pay God the compliment of studying His work of art and this should apply to all realms of human thought. A refusal to use our intelligence honestly is an act of contempt for Him who gave us that intelligence.”
— Physicist Ernest Walton, who won the Nobel Prize in Physics for his experiments done at Cambridge University, and so became the first person in history to artificially split the atom.
“I believe that the more thoroughly science is studied, the further does it take us from anything comparable to atheism.”
And
“If you study science deep enough and long enough, it will force you to believe in God.”
—William Kelvin, who was noted for his theoretical work on thermodynamics, the concept of absolute zero and the Kelvin temperature scale based upon it.
“God created everything by number, weight and measure.”
—Sir Isaac Newton,
“I have concluded that we are in a world made by rules created by an intelligence. Believe me, everything that we call chance today won’t make sense anymore. To me it is clear that we exist in a plan which is governed by rules that were created, shaped by a universal intelligence and not by chance.”
–Michio Kaku, theoretical physicist and string theory pioneer.
and I could go on.....
Mind you, I'm not at all saying that each one of those men are believers in the God of the Bible (but most were).
But I'm saying they were/are not atheists... and that was based upon the science they observed in their respective fields.
To them, there was clear proof atheism was not an option based upon science.
Perhaps your atheism has not led you to read any of these great scientific minds and their thoughts on God's existence. Let me encourage you to do so because their writings are very well respected.
Please understand, I am not saying this:
- That all scientists are theists.
What I am saying is this: These Great minds saw, in their studies, that the probability of things they saw all happening by chance was not very likely. That design meant a designer.
And if an atheist has not looked into this area, then really they have not examined the evidence for God that these men saw.
Here are some resources that I hope will help.
For starters, read the product description on "Return of the God Hypothesis: Three Scientific Discoveries That Reveal the Mind Behind the Universe." It has many scientist PhD's giving it a good review for making the logical/scientific case for God's existence like this:
"A meticulously researched, lavishly illustrated, and thoroughly argued case against the new atheism....." Dr. Brian Keating, Chancellor’s Distinguished Professor of Physics, University of California, San Diego,
Twenty Arguments God's Existence.
https://www.peterkreeft.com/topics-more/20_arguments-gods-existence.htm
Dr. Frank Turek "I don't have enough faith to be an atheist" : https://youtu.be/ybjG3tdArE0
>But complexity by itself isn't really all that remarkable. Complexity can easily emerge from very simple things.
But a hurricane contains no information.
Life is not merely complexity.
Remember, life is a combination of three things: complexity, fine tuning and information (think DNA.)
And these three combined never, ever, ever occur without a thought process.
I am not the only one who makes this assertion.
Let me use 9/11 as an example of intelligent design. I am old enough to have watched 9\11 happen live. After the first plane hit I was watching the news like millions of others. Everyone thought it was an accident. Do planes fly into skyscrapers normally. No. So at that moment it seemed that it was likely this was just a terrible unfortunate accident.
But then.... I was watching live as the second plane hit. And after the second plane hit....
Every. Single. Person. In. America. knew this was absolutely not a random chance accident, but rather a designed plan. A sinister designed plan of course, but designed, none the less. It was clearly a designed plan.
The same thing holds true when we look at all that is required for life. It is not simply one, two or three low probability events that require life to occur, but many.
Many events happening in a required sequence of events indicate a thought process, not random chance. To deny this is like saying the second plane hit by random chance and so did the third plane and fourth, etc... as well.
Now of course 9/11 was an evil action of terrorism. But my reasoning here has nothing to do with politics or terrorism. Absolutely nothing. (If you believe I am talking about terrorism you completely miss the point) It has to do with mathematical probability.
Of course one is free to believe that the plane strikes could happen by chance but the likelihood is it did not.
There is much already written on this.
The many constants (think airplanes) that need to "hit" specific values to facilitate the development of human life:
*the gravitational constant,
*the coulomb constant,
*the cosmological constant,
*the habitable zone of our sun
*and many more.
If these constants were changed even the smallest amount, - life as we know it wouldn't exist.
Even cosmologists understands this issue. And that it is indeed a mathematical "problem". Such an unlikelihood.....
All these "planes" hitting their mark in the universe (not to mention the utter complexity of abiogenesis which is a whole different set of airplanes needing to hit their mark) shows us there was a thinking mind behind it all.
I would argue, if you deny this, you have not done your homework.
Here is a scientist (an MIT graduate) who holds two PhD's and he says the same thing.
http://geraldschroeder.com/wordpress/?page_id=49#
Let me close with this. You want proof of God? This is the start of it.
You want to see the numbers, then start here.
Signature in the Cell: DNA and the Evidence for Intelligent Design
Mind you, there are many more books on the subject like this one:
For instance by, Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D
(He was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of human DNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.)
He wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
Allan Sandage (arguably the greatest astronomer of the 20th century), no longer an atheist.
He says, “The [scientific] world is too complicated in all parts and interconnections to be due to chance alone,”
James Clerk Maxwell, a deeply committed theist. Also, a Scientist and Mathematician who has influenced all of modern day physics and voted one of the top three physicists of all time.
Albert Einstein once said of him, 'I stand not on the shoulders of Newton, but on the shoulders of James Clerk Maxwell.'
Christopher Isham (perhaps Britain's greatest quantum cosmologist), a believer in God's existence based upon the science he sees.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Isham
And this:
"I build molecules for a living. I can't begin to tell you how difficult that job is. I stand in awe of God because of what he has done through his creation. My faith has been increased through my research. Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God."
-Dr. James Tour, voted one of the top 10 chemists in the world. A strong theist and one of the world's leading chemists in the field of nanotechnology. All his degrees and academic honors are here. Too many to list. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Tour
He has a podcast and YouTube channel that is specifically made to show how science points to a Creator. Interviews many in the scientific fields who also are theists. Watching all his videos will make any honest atheist begin to doubt their atheism.
https://youtube.com/c/DrJamesTour
So yes, fine tuning, complexity with information is indeed a sign of thought process behind it.
And that is exactly what life contains.
Actually, this study from 2016 showed that over 50% of scientists around the world may be religious (study size of 9000+ biologists and physicists from around the world). The director of the genome project wrote an incredible book about the surprisingly complementary aspects of spirituality and science. I’m working on my MD right now and identify as agnostic. And while I am embarrassed by the atrocities that organized religion has caused humans in the world, I would argue that faith is indispensable in building forming bonds within communities, offering hope to the individual, and teaching incredibly important life lessons when interpreted fairly. No religion is perfect, but no system—not even nature—is “perfect”, by humanitarian standards.
It’s all about what you’re there for.
>atheist, so how can you demonstrate my lack of belief in Gods as false?
There are several things that point to the fact that God exists.
From a logical point of view we have this.
The universe is fine tuned for life. Fine tuning is the result of design/thought. The constants that need to be set to specific values to facilitate the development of human life:
*the gravitational constant,
*the coulomb constant,
*the cosmological constant,
*the habitable zone of our sun
*and many more.
If a few these constants were changed even the smallest amount, - life as we know it wouldn't exist.
When we look at the universe and the planet, it is apparent the world seems to support us perfectly, and that seems really unlikely to happen by chance.
"The fine-tuning problem is also treated with great seriousness among contemporary cosmologists, including those committed to naturalism"
And you can read this excellent summary on the fine-tuning of the universe from an MIT graduate (scientist) who says the same thing. He has two PhD's.
http://geraldschroeder.com/wordpress/?page_id=49#
Then we have this: The mathematical probability of Life forming by chance. It's not possible from a logical point of view.
For instance I can look at any building and tell you that there was an architect behind it. I may not know who the architect was, but I am 100% sure that every building had somebody designing it before they built it. That random chance could not have made any building. That's logical to me.
The same thing is true with a single cell. Or the human body. It's so utterly complex.... and complex, functional, intelligent things are required to have a designing mind behind them. Chaos does not produce order. Chaos does not produce information. Life (DNA) contains information.
It's like this, if I was walking along a beach on a deserted island in the ocean, and I thought no one was on the island. And I walked along and then on the sand I suddenly see somebody wrote , John loves Sally, inside a big heart in the sand.
I can assume one of two things. Either that theocean waves did that by chance, or I am not alone on the island, that there is a thinking mind that wrote that.
For me, logic clearly dictates the second one.
There had to be a thinking mind that wrote that. So we take that same principle and apply it to life or specifically DNA.
DNA is much more complex than John loves Sally. It's a software code that tells the human body what to do. Infinitely more complex than computer software. And software is always written by a thinking Mind. By teams of Engineers.
The Apple or Windows operating systems were written by teams of Engineers. And yet they're child's play compared to how complex the human body and DNA is. So for me that's conclusive evidence that there was a thinking mind behind it all.
And that's the mere starting point for showing God existing.
I am not alone in this line of thought. Great scientists in the past have all seen that design does not happen by chance.
Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D sees the evidence from science.
He was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of human DNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.
He wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
And this:
"I build molecules for a living. I can't begin to tell you how difficult that job is. I stand in awe of God because of what he has done through his creation. My faith has been increased through my research. Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God."
-Dr. James Tour, voted one of the top 10 chemists in the world. A strong theist and one of the world's leading chemists in the field of nanotechnology.
He shows here how complex and unlikely atheistic abiogenesis is, due to its extreme complexity.
He also goes much more in depth with a 13 episode series on abiogenesis. Here: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLILWudw_84t2THBvJZFyuLA0qvxwrIBDr
And this:
“I have concluded that we are in a world made by rules created by an intelligence. Believe me, everything that we call chance today won’t make sense anymore. To me it is clear that we exist in a plan which is governed by rules that were created, shaped by a universal intelligence and not by chance.”
–Michio Kaku, theoretical physicist and string theory pioneer.
Again, I cannot list all the mathematical formulas here to show the utter complexity of life, but if these great minds say it could not happen by chance, it's something to think about.
So all this is just scratching the surface for me to show God exists. We have not even touched upon topics like predictive prophecy, archeology, and more.
There is not an iota of doubt in my mind, God exists.
>about believing scientists.
Please understand, I am not saying this:
- That all scientists are theists.
What I am saying is this: many great minds saw, in their studies, that the probability of things they saw all happening by chance was not very likely. That design meant a designer.
For instance:
Allan Sandage (arguably the greatest astronomer of the 20th century), no longer a atheist.
He says, “The [scientific] world is too complicated in all parts and interconnections to be due to chance alone,”
"You may fly to the ends of the world and find no God but the Author of Salvation."
James Clerk Maxwell, a deeply committed Christian. Also, a Scientist and Mathematician who has influenced all of modern day physics and voted one of the top three physicists of all time.
Albert Einstein once said of him, 'I stand not on the shoulders of Newton, but on the shoulders of James Clerk Maxwell.'
Christopher Isham (perhaps Britain's greatest quantum cosmologist), a believer in God's existence based upon the science he sees.
Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D
He was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of human DNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.
He wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
Also... these simple yet powerful quotes from men of science:
“There is no conflict between science and religion. Our knowledge of God is made larger with every discovery we make about the world.”
–Joseph H. Taylor, Jr., who received the 1993 Nobel Prize in Physics for the discovery of the first known binary pulsar.
“One way to learn the mind of the Creator is to study His creation. We must pay God the compliment of studying His work of art and this should apply to all realms of human thought. A refusal to use our intelligence honestly is an act of contempt for Him who gave us that intelligence.”
— Physicist Ernest Walton, who won the Nobel Prize in Physics for his experiments done at Cambridge University, and so became the first person in history to artificially split the atom.
“I believe that the more thoroughly science is studied, the further does it take us from anything comparable to atheism.”
And
“If you study science deep enough and long enough, it will force you to believe in God.”
—William Kelvin, who was noted for his theoretical work on thermodynamics, the concept of absolute zero and the Kelvin temperature scale based upon it.
“God created everything by number, weight and measure.”
—Sir Isaac Newton,
and I could go on.....
So unless you've read some of the scientific views behind belief in God I would say you're really not being an impartial juror.
These men all saw "proof" very clearly in the science they studied.
To them, there was clear proof atheism was not an option based upon science.
https://www.amazon.ca/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Language_of_God
Francs Collins is from the guy who ran the Human Genome project and was (just resigned as head of NIH) Lord Fauci's boss... so the "believe in science" people may need some serious scrutiny.
Interestingly, Collins turned religious after being a scientist and not due to upbringing. Having listened to the guy, he is absolutely a self righteous prick... I am not sure that is basis to question their intelligence, but using Bayesian probability to build argument for "collective" good is certainly a red flag for embedding priors/beliefs and biasing the sampled sets when testing a hypothesis.
Good questions. Let me address them each in its own section.
1) There is proof for God.
Perhaps your atheism has not led you to read any of these great scientific minds and their thoughts on God's existence. Let me encourage you to do so because their writings are very well respected.
Please understand, I am not saying this:
- That all scientists are theists.
What I am saying is this: These Great minds saw, in their studies, that the probability of things they saw all happening by chance was not very likely. That design meant a designer.
And if an atheist has not looked into this area, then really they have not examined the evidence for God that these men saw.
For instance:
Allan Sandage (arguably the greatest astronomer of the 20th century), no longer a atheist.
He says, “The [scientific] world is too complicated in all parts and interconnections to be due to chance alone,”
Read more here:
https://thinkingmatters.org.nz/2017/11/allan-sandage/
"You may fly to the ends of the world and find no God but the Author of Salvation."
James Clerk Maxwell, a deeply committed Christian. Also, a Scientist and Mathematician who has influenced all of modern day physics and voted one of the top three physicists of all time.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Clerk_Maxwell
Albert Einstein once said of him, 'I stand not on the shoulders of Newton, but on the shoulders of James Clerk Maxwell.'
Christopher Isham (perhaps Britain's greatest quantum cosmologist), a believer in God's existence based upon the science he sees.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Isham
Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D
He was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of human DNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.
He wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
Also... these simple yet powerful quotes from men of science:
“There is no conflict between science and religion. Our knowledge of God is made larger with every discovery we make about the world.”
–Joseph H. Taylor, Jr., who received the 1993 Nobel Prize in Physics for the discovery of the first known binary pulsar.
And this:
"I build molecules for a living. I can't begin to tell you how difficult that job is. I stand in awe of God because of what he has done through his creation. My faith has been increased through my research. Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God."
-Dr. James Tour, voted one of the top 10 chemists in the world. A strong theist and one of the world's leading chemists in the field of nanotechnology. All his degrees and academic honors are here. Too many to list. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Tour
He has a podcast and YouTube channel that is specifically made to show how science points to a Creator. Interviews many in the scientific fields who also are theists. Watching all his videos will make any honest atheist begin to doubt their atheism.
https://youtube.com/c/DrJamesTour
“One way to learn the mind of the Creator is to study His creation. We must pay God the compliment of studying His work of art and this should apply to all realms of human thought. A refusal to use our intelligence honestly is an act of contempt for Him who gave us that intelligence.”
— Physicist Ernest Walton, who won the Nobel Prize in Physics for his experiments done at Cambridge University, and so became the first person in history to artificially split the atom.
“I believe that the more thoroughly science is studied, the further does it take us from anything comparable to atheism.”
And
“If you study science deep enough and long enough, it will force you to believe in God.”
—William Kelvin, who was noted for his theoretical work on thermodynamics, the concept of absolute zero and the Kelvin temperature scale based upon it.
“God created everything by number, weight and measure.”
—Sir Isaac Newton,
“I have concluded that we are in a world made by rules created by an intelligence. Believe me, everything that we call chance today won’t make sense anymore. To me it is clear that we exist in a plan which is governed by rules that were created, shaped by a universal intelligence and not by chance.”
–Michio Kaku, theoretical physicist and string theory pioneer.
and I could go on.....
So unless you've read some of the scientific views behind belief in God I would say you're really not being an impartial juror.
These men all saw "proof" very clearly in the science they studied. They saw proof. Have you looked at the evidence they looked at?
Mind you, I'm not at all saying that each one of those men are believers in the God of the Bible (but most were).
But I'm saying they were/are not atheists... and that was based upon the science they observed in their respective fields.
To them, there was clear proof atheism was not an option based upon science.
2) How do we know which faith is correct? Two words... Predictive prophecy. The Hebrew Bible, written centuries before Jesus, told us what to look for in the Messiah.
And before you say the prophecies were written after Jesus, the Dead Sea Scrolls are one of the most important archaeological finds of the century, and they (copies of the Old Testament) are clearly dated before the time of Jesus. So the OT and the prophecies were written before Jesus.
Jesus fulfilled those prophecies. Way too much information for this space. This is why we don't follow Jesus out of the blue. We follow him because he fulfills the prophecies.
Absolutely no other false god can claim that. Only the true God tells humanity what to expect.
Volumes are written on this topic.... biblical prophecy.
Look up Isaiah chapter 53 for starters. The Messiah dies for the sins of others, and then is resurrected.
Zechariah chapter 12 tells us the Messiah would be pierced and mourned for.
Isaiah 49.6 tells us the Messiah's message of salvation would span the entire globe.
And many, many more prophecies I dont have space to list, all written centuries before Jesus Christ came to Israel.
This is what distinguishes the Hebrew Bible, the New Testament and Jesus Christ from every other world religion.
Predictive prophecy.
3) What about hell?
The wrong assumption people make: Every soul lives forever.
The biblical message: Everyone only gets to live in this world, unless you get immortality (everlasting life) from trusting in Jesus Christ.
God is not required to grant all people immortality.
You get to live once, then that's all.
For those who have turned from sin and trusted in Jesus Chist, Jesus enters into that heart and gives that person a new heart (born again) and immortality. Heaven.
That summary is what I never knew growing up, and most people today do not understand about heaven / hell and Christianity.
Believers in Jesus gain “everlasting life” (i.e. immortality) ( 2 Timothy 1:10).
All others are eventually annihilated (destroyed). This is what Jesus Christ taught:
"Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10.28
Check out r/conditionalism or www.conditionalimmortality.org for more detailed info. Both evangelical places.
Hope this helps.
Amen! I tell this to atheists all the time. It is a false dichotomy they are presenting: God or science, choose one. False!
For instance:
Allan Sandage (arguably the greatest astronomer of the 20th century), no longer a atheist.
He says, “The [scientific] world is too complicated in all parts and interconnections to be due to chance alone,”
Read more here:
https://thinkingmatters.org.nz/2017/11/allan-sandage/
"You may fly to the ends of the world and find no God but the Author of Salvation."
James Clerk Maxwell, a deeply committed Christian. Also, a Scientist and Mathematician who has influenced all of modern day physics and voted one of the top three physicists of all time.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Clerk_Maxwell
Albert Einstein once said of him, 'I stand not on the shoulders of Newton, but on the shoulders of James Clerk Maxwell.'
Christopher Isham (perhaps Britain's greatest quantum cosmologist), a believer in God's existence based upon the science he sees.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Isham
Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D also left atheism after seeing the evidence from science.
He was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of human DNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.
He wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
Also... these simple yet powerful quotes from men of science:
“There is no conflict between science and religion. Our knowledge of God is made larger with every discovery we make about the world.”
–Joseph H. Taylor, Jr., who received the 1993 Nobel Prize in Physics for the discovery of the first known binary pulsar.
And this:
"I build molecules for a living. I can't begin to tell you how difficult that job is. I stand in awe of God because of what he has done through his creation. My faith has been increased through my research. Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God."
-Dr. James Tour, voted one of the top 10 chemists in the world. A strong theist and one of the world's leading chemists in the field of nanotechnology.
He shows here how complex and unlikely atheistic abiogenesis is, due to its extreme complexity.
He also goes much more in depth with a 13 episode series on abiogenesis. Here: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLILWudw_84t2THBvJZFyuLA0qvxwrIBDr
“One way to learn the mind of the Creator is to study His creation. We must pay God the compliment of studying His work of art and this should apply to all realms of human thought. A refusal to use our intelligence honestly is an act of contempt for Him who gave us that intelligence.”
— Physicist Ernest Walton, who won the Nobel Prize in Physics for his experiments done at Cambridge University, and so became the first person in history to artificially split the atom.
“I believe that the more thoroughly science is studied, the further does it take us from anything comparable to atheism.”
And
“If you study science deep enough and long enough, it will force you to believe in God.”
—William Kelvin, who was noted for his theoretical work on thermodynamics, the concept of absolute zero and the Kelvin temperature scale based upon it.
“God created everything by number, weight and measure.”
—Sir Isaac Newton,
“I have concluded that we are in a world made by rules created by an intelligence. Believe me, everything that we call chance today won’t make sense anymore. To me it is clear that we exist in a plan which is governed by rules that were created, shaped by a universal intelligence and not by chance.”
–Michio Kaku, theoretical physicist and string theory pioneer. (But not a Christian)
and I could go on.....
To them, there was clear proof atheism was not an option based upon science.
There are several things that point to the fact that God exists that you can see.
From a logical point of view we have this.
The universe is fine tuned for life. Fine tuning is the result of design/thought. The constants that need to be set to specific values to facilitate the development of human life:
*the gravitational constant,
*the coulomb constant,
*the cosmological constant,
*the habitable zone of our sun
*and many more.
If a few these constants were changed even the smallest amount, - life as we know it wouldn't exist.
When we look at the universe and the planet, it is apparent the world seems to support us perfectly, and that seems really unlikely to happen by chance.
"The fine-tuning problem is also treated with great seriousness among contemporary cosmologists, including those committed to naturalism"
And you can read this excellent summary on the fine-tuning of the universe from an MIT graduate (scientist) who says the same thing. He has two PhD's.
http://geraldschroeder.com/wordpress/?page_id=49#
Then we have this: The mathematical probability of Life forming by chance. It's not possible from a logical point of view.
For instance I can look at any building and tell you that there was an architect behind it. I may not know who the architect was, but I am 100% sure that every building had somebody designing it before they built it. That random chance could not have made any building. That's logical to me.
The same thing is true with a single cell. Or the human body. It's so utterly complex.... and complex, functional, intelligent things are required to have a designing mind behind them. Chaos does not produce order. Chaos does not produce information. Life (DNA) contains information.
It's like this, if I was walking along a beach on a deserted island in the ocean, and I thought no one was on the island. And I walked along and then on the sand I suddenly see somebody wrote , John loves Sally, inside a big heart in the sand.
I can assume one of two things. Either that theocean waves did that by chance, or I am not alone on the island, that there is a thinking mind that wrote that.
For me, logic clearly dictates the second one.
There had to be a thinking mind that wrote that. So we take that same principle and apply it to life or specifically DNA.
DNA is much more complex than John loves Sally. It's a software code that tells the human body what to do. Infinitely more complex than computer software. And software is always written by a thinking Mind. By teams of Engineers.
The Apple or Windows operating systems were written by teams of Engineers. And yet they're child's play compared to how complex the human body and DNA is. So for me that's conclusive evidence that there was a thinking mind behind it all.
And that's the mere starting point for showing God existing.
I am not alone in this line of thought. Great scientists in the past have all seen that design does not happen by chance.
Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D sees the evidence from science.
He was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of human DNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.
He wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
And this:
"I build molecules for a living. I can't begin to tell you how difficult that job is. I stand in awe of God because of what he has done through his creation. My faith has been increased through my research. Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God."
-Dr. James Tour, voted one of the top 10 chemists in the world. A strong theist and one of the world's leading chemists in the field of nanotechnology.
He shows here how complex and unlikely atheistic abiogenesis is, due to its extreme complexity.
He also goes much more in depth with a 13 episode series on abiogenesis. Here: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLILWudw_84t2THBvJZFyuLA0qvxwrIBDr
And this:
“I have concluded that we are in a world made by rules created by an intelligence. Believe me, everything that we call chance today won’t make sense anymore. To me it is clear that we exist in a plan which is governed by rules that were created, shaped by a universal intelligence and not by chance.”
–Michio Kaku, theoretical physicist and string theory pioneer.
Again, I cannot list all the mathematical formulas here to show the utter complexity of life, but if these great minds say it could not happen by chance, it's something to think about.
So all this is just scratching the surface for me to show God exists. We have not even touched upon topics like predictive prophecy, archeology, and more.
There is not an iota of doubt in my mind, God exists.
This is how we know God exists.
There are in theory two main explanations on the table for the universe's existing, life existing, etc.
1) completely natural causes 2) Theism/God
If one choice can be shown to be so mathematically improbable, so as to be functionally nil, then logically the remaining theory must be correct.
This would not be an appeal to ignorance, but rather deductive reasoning.
And this is exactly why many people in the science field understand that God does exist. They looked at the mathematical probability of the first one (only nature doing this all) and say it's virtually nil.
Therefore, the other possibility is true by virtue of deductive reasoning.
Logic tells me this....
Software is engineered.
Things that are engineered have a mind that designed it.
Things that are engineered are a product of thought. I have no idea who was on the team that programmed my OS. But I am 100% sure there was a thinking mind(s) behind my OS.
So too, DNA is a chemical OS. Random chance does not write software. A thinking mind writes complex code.
This is the first evidence that we were Created, Designed, from a Engineer, not a product of chance.
This is the first step in seeing the mind of God. This is proof of God's existence that these great minds understood.
Perhaps your atheism has not led you to read any of these great scientific minds and their thoughts on God's existence. Let me encourage you to do so because their writings are very well respected.
Allan Sandage (arguably the greatest astronomer of the 20th century), left atheism.
He says, “The [scientific] world is too complicated in all parts and interconnections to be due to chance alone,”
Read more here:
https://thinkingmatters.org.nz/2017/11/allan-sandage/
"You may fly to the ends of the world and find no God but the Author of Salvation."
James Clerk Maxwell, a deeply committed Christian. Also, a Scientist and Mathematician who has influenced all of modern day physics and voted one of the top three physicists of all time.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Clerk_Maxwell
Albert Einstein once said of him, 'I stand not on the shoulders of Newton, but on the shoulders of James Clerk Maxwell.'
Christopher Isham (perhaps Britain's greatest quantum cosmologist), a believer in God's existence.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Isham
Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D also left atheism after seeing the evidence from science.
He was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of human DNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.
He wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
Also... these simple yet powerful quotes from men of science:
“There is no conflict between science and religion. Our knowledge of God is made larger with every discovery we make about the world.”
–Joseph H. Taylor, Jr., who received the 1993 Nobel Prize in Physics for the discovery of the first known binary pulsar.
And this:
"I build molecules for a living. I can't begin to tell you how difficult that job is. I stand in awe of God because of what he has done through his creation. My faith has been increased through my research. Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God."
-Dr. James Tour, voted one of the top 10 chemists in the world. A strong theist and one of the world's leading chemists in the field of nanotechnology.
He shows here how complex and unlikely atheistic abiogenesis is, due to its extreme complexity.
He also goes much more in depth with a 13 episode series on abiogenesis. Here: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLILWudw_84t2THBvJZFyuLA0qvxwrIBDr
“One way to learn the mind of the Creator is to study His creation. We must pay God the compliment of studying His work of art and this should apply to all realms of human thought. A refusal to use our intelligence honestly is an act of contempt for Him who gave us that intelligence.”
— Physicist Ernest Walton, who won the Nobel Prize in Physics for his experiments done at Cambridge University, and so became the first person in history to artificially split the atom.
“I believe that the more thoroughly science is studied, the further does it take us from anything comparable to atheism.”
And
“If you study science deep enough and long enough, it will force you to believe in God.”
—Lord William Kelvin, who was noted for his theoretical work on thermodynamics, the concept of absolute zero and the Kelvin temperature scale based upon it.
“God created everything by number, weight and measure.”
—Sir Isaac Newton,
“I have concluded that we are in a world made by rules created by an intelligence. Believe me, everything that we call chance today won’t make sense anymore. To me it is clear that we exist in a plan which is governed by rules that were created, shaped by a universal intelligence and not by chance.”
–Michio Kaku, theoretical physicist and string theory pioneer.
and I could go on.....
So unless you've read some of the scientific views behind belief in God I would say you're really not being an impartial juror.
These men all saw "proof" very clearly in the science they studied. They saw proof. Have you looked at the evidence they looked at?
Mind you, I'm not at all saying that each one of those men are believers in the God of the Bible (though most are).
But I'm saying they were/are not atheists... and that was based upon the science they observed in their respective fields.
To them, there was clear proof atheism was not an option.
Read the product description on "Return of the God Hypothesis: Three Scientific Discoveries That Reveal the Mind Behind the Universe." It has many scientist PhD's giving it a good review for making the logical/scientific case for God's existence like this:
"A meticulously researched, lavishly illustrated, and thoroughly argued case against the new atheism....." Dr. Brian Keating, Chancellor’s Distinguished Professor of Physics, University of California, San Diego,
Twenty Arguments God's Existence.
https://www.peterkreeft.com/topics-more/20_arguments-gods-existence.htm
Dr. Frank Turek "I don't have enough faith to be an atheist" : https://youtu.be/ybjG3tdArE0
Also this.
Dr. William Lane Craig lovingly demolishes atheism.
I also recommend:
https://www.reasonablefaith.org/
And here is a great read from a former atheist. Book is called "The case for a Creator" by Lee Stroble. It is an older book so it can be found for only a few dollars on ebay.
This book, Also by him "The case for Faith" is available as a free download. I would highly recommend it.
Just Google the book title and free pdf. You can read it free.
Also, the classic book by CS Lewis called Mere Christianity.
On the science side:
Signature in the Cell: DNA and the Evidence for Intelligent Design (free pdf).
Read this excellent summary on the fine-tuning of the universe from an MIT graduate (scientist) who says the same thing. His Doctorate is in two fields: Earth sciences and physics.
http://geraldschroeder.com/wordpress/?page_id=49#
Hope this helps.
>If there is no proof
Really? How about this.
There are in theory two main explanations on the table for the universe's existing, life existing, etc.
1) completely natural causes 2) Theism/God
If one choice can be shown to be so mathematically improbable, so as to be functionally nil, then logically the remaining theory must be correct.
This would not be an appeal to ignorance, but rather deductive reasoning.
And this is exactly why many people in the science field understand that God does exist. They looked at the mathematical probability of the first one (only nature doing this all) and say it's virtually nil.
Therefore, the other possibility is true by virtue of deductive reasoning.
Logic tells me this....
Software is engineered.
Things that are engineered have a mind that designed it.
Things that are engineered are a product of thought. I have no idea who was on the team that programmed my OS. But I am 100% sure there was a thinking mind(s) behind my OS.
So too, DNA is a chemical OS. Random chance does not write software. A thinking mind writes complex code.
This is the first evidence that we were Created, Designed, from a Engineer, not a product of chance.
This is the first step in seeing the mind of God. This is proof of God's existence that these great minds understood.
Perhaps your atheism has not led you to read any of these great scientific minds and their thoughts on God's existence. Let me encourage you to do so because their writings are very well respected.
Allan Sandage (arguably the greatest astronomer of the 20th century), left atheism.
He says, “The [scientific] world is too complicated in all parts and interconnections to be due to chance alone,”
Read more here:
https://thinkingmatters.org.nz/2017/11/allan-sandage/
"You may fly to the ends of the world and find no God but the Author of Salvation."
James Clerk Maxwell, a deeply committed Christian. Also, a Scientist and Mathematician who has influenced all of modern day physics and voted one of the top three physicists of all time.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Clerk_Maxwell
Albert Einstein once said of him, 'I stand not on the shoulders of Newton, but on the shoulders of James Clerk Maxwell.'
Christopher Isham (perhaps Britain's greatest quantum cosmologist), a believer in God's existence.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Isham
Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D also left atheism after seeing the evidence from science.
He was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of human DNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.
He wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
Also... these simple yet powerful quotes from men of science:
“There is no conflict between science and religion. Our knowledge of God is made larger with every discovery we make about the world.”
–Joseph H. Taylor, Jr., who received the 1993 Nobel Prize in Physics for the discovery of the first known binary pulsar.
And this:
"I build molecules for a living. I can't begin to tell you how difficult that job is. I stand in awe of God because of what he has done through his creation. My faith has been increased through my research. Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God."
-Dr. James Tour, voted one of the top 10 chemists in the world. A strong theist and one of the world's leading chemists in the field of nanotechnology.
He shows here how complex and unlikely atheistic abiogenesis is, due to its extreme complexity.
He also goes much more in depth with a 13 episode series on abiogenesis. Here: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLILWudw_84t2THBvJZFyuLA0qvxwrIBDr
“One way to learn the mind of the Creator is to study His creation. We must pay God the compliment of studying His work of art and this should apply to all realms of human thought. A refusal to use our intelligence honestly is an act of contempt for Him who gave us that intelligence.”
— Physicist Ernest Walton, who won the Nobel Prize in Physics for his experiments done at Cambridge University, and so became the first person in history to artificially split the atom.
“I believe that the more thoroughly science is studied, the further does it take us from anything comparable to atheism.”
And
“If you study science deep enough and long enough, it will force you to believe in God.”
—Lord William Kelvin, who was noted for his theoretical work on thermodynamics, the concept of absolute zero and the Kelvin temperature scale based upon it.
“God created everything by number, weight and measure.”
—Sir Isaac Newton,
“I have concluded that we are in a world made by rules created by an intelligence. Believe me, everything that we call chance today won’t make sense anymore. To me it is clear that we exist in a plan which is governed by rules that were created, shaped by a universal intelligence and not by chance.”
–Michio Kaku, theoretical physicist and string theory pioneer.
and I could go on.....
So unless you've read some of the scientific views behind belief in God I would say you're really not being an impartial juror.
These men all saw "proof" very clearly in the science they studied. They saw proof. Have you looked at the evidence they looked at?
Mind you, I'm not at all saying that each one of those men are believers in the God of the Bible (though most are).
But I'm saying they were/are not atheists... and that was based upon the science they observed in their respective fields.
To them, there was clear proof atheism was not an option.
>Here's a big dollop of reality:
And here is one right back at you.
There are several things that point to the fact that God exists.
(Other than of course that I now know him and have a personal relationship with him. But that's for a different discussion.)
From a logical point of view we have this. The universe is fine tuned for life. The myriad of constants that need to be set to specific values to facilitate the development of human life:
*the gravitational constant,
*the coulomb constant,
*the cosmological constant,
*the habitable zone of our sun
*and many more.
If these constants were changed even the smallest amount, (down to dozens of zeros after the decimal point) - life as we know it wouldn't exist.
When we look at the universe and the planet, it is apparent the world seems to support us perfectly, and that seems really unlikely to happen by chance.
"The fine-tuning problem is also treated with great seriousness among contemporary cosmologists, including those committed to naturalism"
And you can read this excellent summary on the fine-tuning of the universe from an MIT graduate (scientist) who says the same thing. He has two PhD's.
http://geraldschroeder.com/wordpress/?page_id=49#
Then we have this: The mathematical probability of Life forming by chance. It's not possible from a logical point of view.
For instance I can look at any building and tell you that there was an architect behind it. I may not know who the architect was, but I am 100% sure that every building had somebody designing it before they built it. That random chance could not have made any building. That's logical to me.
The same thing is true with a single cell. Or the human body. It's so utterly complex.... and complex, functional, intelligent things are required to have a designing mind behind them. Chaos does not produce order. Chaos does not produce information. Life (DNA) contains information.
It's like this, if I was walking along a beach on a deserted island in the ocean, and I thought no one was on the island. And I walked along and then on the sand I suddenly see somebody wrote , John loves Sally, inside a big heart in the sand.
I can assume one of two things. Either that theocean waves did that by chance, or I am not alone on the island, that there is a thinking mind that wrote that.
For me, logic clearly dictates the second one.
There had to be a thinking mind that wrote that. So we take that same principle and apply it to life or specifically DNA.
DNA is much more complex than John loves Sally. It's a software code that tells the human body what to do. Infinitely more complex than computer software. And software is always written by a thinking Mind. By teams of Engineers.
The Apple or Windows operating systems were written by teams of Engineers. And yet they're child's play compared to how complex the human body and DNA is. So for me that's conclusive evidence that there was a thinking mind behind it all.
And that's the mere starting point for showing God existing.
I am not alone in this line of thought. Great scientists in the past have all seen that design does not happen by chance.
Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D left atheism after seeing the evidence from science.
He was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of human DNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.
He wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
And this:
"I build molecules for a living. I can't begin to tell you how difficult that job is. I stand in awe of God because of what he has done through his creation. My faith has been increased through my research. Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God."
-Dr. James Tour, voted one of the top 10 chemists in the world. A strong theist and one of the world's leading chemists in the field of nanotechnology.
He shows here how complex and unlikely atheistic abiogenesis is, due to its extreme complexity.
He also goes much more in depth with a 13 episode series on abiogenesis. Here: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLILWudw_84t2THBvJZFyuLA0qvxwrIBDr
And this:
“I have concluded that we are in a world made by rules created by an intelligence. Believe me, everything that we call chance today won’t make sense anymore. To me it is clear that we exist in a plan which is governed by rules that were created, shaped by a universal intelligence and not by chance.”
–Michio Kaku, theoretical physicist and string theory pioneer.
Again, I cannot list all the mathematical formulas here to show the utter complexity of life, but if these great minds say it could not happen by chance, it's something to think about.
So all this is just scratching the surface for me to show God exists. We have not even touched upon topics like predictive prophecy, archeology, and more.
There is not an iota of doubt in my mind,
God exists.
Jesus is the Messiah.
You have made the worst decision in your life by rejecting God. But it is not too late. As long as you have breath, there is hope.
I'm done here. There is plenty of information already online to help you see this.
No longer reading replies.
Be well.
Goodbye.
The mathematical probability of Life forming by chance.
>This isn't true, and has no basis.
Absolutely it has a basis in science. If you don't understand this as a problem and you have really not done your homework.
>and nothing about the universe or life looks like it was intelligently designed.
Nonsense. Again you have not done your homework in this area.
“I have concluded that we are in a world made by rules created by an intelligence. Believe me, everything that we call chance today won’t make sense anymore. To me it is clear that we exist in a plan which is governed by rules that were created, shaped by a universal intelligence and not by chance.”
–Michio Kaku, theoretical physicist and string theory pioneer.
Let me use 9/11 as an example of intelligent design. I am old enough to have watched 9\11 happen live. After the first plane hit I was watching the news like millions of others. Everyone thought it was an accident. Do planes fly into skyscrapers normally. No. So at that moment it seemed that it was likely this was just a terrible unfortunate accident.
But then.... I was watching live as the second plane hit. And after the second plane hit....
Every. Single. Person. In. America. knew this was absolutely not a random chance accident, but rather a designed plan. A sinister designed plan of course, but designed, none the less. It was clearly a designed plan.
The same thing holds true when we look at all that is required for life. It is not simply one, two or three low probability events that require life to occur, but many.
Many events happening in a required sequence of events indicate a thought process, not random chance. To deny this is like saying the second plane hit by random chance and so did the third plane and fourth, etc... as well.
Now of course 9/11 was an evil action of terrorism. But my reasoning here has nothing to do with politics or terrorism. Absolutely nothing. (If you believe I am talking about terrorism you completely miss the point) It has to do with mathematical probability.
Of course one is free to believe that the plane strikes could happen by chance but the likelihood is it did not.
There is much already written on this.
The many constants (think airplanes) that need to "hit" specific values to facilitate the development of human life:
*the gravitational constant,
*the coulomb constant,
*the cosmological constant,
*the habitable zone of our sun
*and many more.
If these constants were changed even the smallest amount, - life as we know it wouldn't exist.
Even cosmologists understands this issue. And that it is indeed a mathematical "problem". Such an unlikelihood.....
All these "planes" hitting their mark in the universe (not to mention the utter complexity of abiogenesis which is a whole different set of airplanes needing to hit their mark) shows us there was a thinking mind behind it all.
If you deny this, you have not done your homework. If you ask for the numbers (far too much to post here) then that shows me you have not looked into this as cosmologists have and your atheism has never been challenged except by the level of little old lady reasonings.
Here is a scientist (an MIT graduate) who holds two PhD's and he says the same thing.
http://geraldschroeder.com/wordpress/?page_id=49#
Let me close with this. You want proof of God? This is the start of it.
You want to see the numbers, then start here.
Signature in the Cell: DNA and the Evidence for Intelligent Design
Mind you, there are many more books on the subject like this one:
For instance by, Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D
He wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
Refusing to even consider God as a possibility of Designer becomes an act of your defiant will, no longer "there is no proof." There are indeed starting points for "proof."
The argument really is "What is more probable to understand the cause of this all - Chance or Intelligence.
The second plane hit on 9/11 shows us Design by thought.
Proof of God starts here. We see Design in life.
>it would be unjust to punish them based on the fact that they don’t believe.
1) you'll not be punished because you don't believe, you will be punished because of your sins.
2) Unhealthy person: Doctor, I just can't seem to get healthy. I'm stuck at 390 lbs.
Doctor: What is your diet like?
Unhealthy person: I drink about 10 cans of soda a day. I love to binge on candy and sweets. I never eat any fruits or vegetables.
Doctor: smh
So maybe the atheist can't believe in God because they dont spend time feeding their heart with the right diet.... Like reading great Christian thinkers. Both in the field of science and apologetics. There are many.
It is their diet helping to keep them atheists. Change the diet and suddenly things impossible become possible.
3) Obviously this short form is impossible to give the scientific reasons why. But great minds saw in their scientific fields, God exists, randomness could not have produced this.
There are several things that point to the fact that God exists.
(Other than of course that I now know him and have a personal relationship with him. But that's for a different discussion.)
From a logical point of view we have this.
The mathematical probability of Life forming by chance. It's not possible from a logical point of view.
For instance I can look at any building and tell you that there was an architect behind it. I may not know who the architect was, but I am 100% sure that every building had somebody designing it before they built it. That random chance could not have made any building. That's logical to me.
The same thing is true with a single cell. Or the human body. It's so utterly complex.... and complex, functional things are required to have a designing mind behind them. Chaos does not produce order.
It's like this, if I was walking along a beach on a deserted island in the ocean, and I thought no one was on the island. And I walked along and then on the sand I suddenly see somebody wrote , John loves Sally, inside a big heart in the sand.
I can assume one of two things. Either that theocean waves did that by chance, or I am not alone on the island , there is a thinking mind that wrote that.
For me, logic clearly dictates the second one.
There had to be a thinking mind that wrote that. So we take that same principle and apply it to life or specifically DNA. DNA is much more complex than John loves Sally. It'sa software code that tells the human body what to do. Infinitely more complex than computer software. And software is always written by a thinking Mind. By teams of Engineers.
The Apple or Windows operating systems were written by teams of Engineers. And yet they're child's play compared to how complex the human body and DNA is. So for me that's conclusive evidence that there was a thinking mind behind it all.
And that is what those great scientific minds realized in their studies. This incredible order was the result of a mind, thought.
And that's the mere starting point for showing God existing.
Great scientists in the past have all seen that design does not happen by chance.
So you don't get the luxury of just dismissing it out of hand as a "wordplay" argument. Because it is absolutely completely not.
If you say it is nonsense, then you actually have not looked into this.
“I have concluded that we are in a world made by rules created by an intelligence. Believe me, everything that we call chance today won’t make sense anymore. To me it is clear that we exist in a plan which is governed by rules that were created, shaped by a universal intelligence and not by chance.”
–Michio Kaku, theoretical physicist and string theory pioneer.
Again, I cannot list all the mathematical formulas here to show the utter complexity of life, but if these great minds say it could not happen by chance, it's something to think about.
Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D left atheism. Was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of human DNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.
Wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
And this:
"I build molecules for a living. I can't begin to tell you how difficult that job is. I stand in awe of God because of what he has done through his creation. My faith has been increased through my research. Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God."
-Dr. James Tour, voted one of the top 10 chemists in the world. A strong theist and one of the world's leading chemists in the field of nanotechnology.
He shows here how complex and unlikely atheistic abiogenesis is, due to its extreme complexity.
He also goes much more in depth with a 13 episode series on abiogenesis. Here: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLILWudw_84t2THBvJZFyuLA0qvxwrIBDr
Wishing you the best.
Perhaps your atheism has not led you to read any of these great scientific minds and their thoughts on God's existence. Let me encourage you to do so because their writings are very well respected.
Please understand, I am not saying this:
- That all scientists are theists.
What I am saying is this: These Great minds saw, in their studies, that the probability of things they saw all happening by chance was not very likely. That design meant a designer.
And if an atheist has not looked into this area, then really they have not examined the evidence for God that these men saw.
For instance:
Allan Sandage (arguably the greatest astronomer of the 20th century), no longer a atheist.
He says, “The [scientific] world is too complicated in all parts and interconnections to be due to chance alone,”
Read more here:
https://thinkingmatters.org.nz/2017/11/allan-sandage/
"You may fly to the ends of the world and find no God but the Author of Salvation."
James Clerk Maxwell, a deeply committed Christian. Also, a Scientist and Mathematician who has influenced all of modern day physics and voted one of the top three physicists of all time.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Clerk_Maxwell
Albert Einstein once said of him, 'I stand not on the shoulders of Newton, but on the shoulders of James Clerk Maxwell.'
Christopher Isham (perhaps Britain's greatest quantum cosmologist), a believer in God's existence based upon the science he sees.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Isham
Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D also left atheism after seeing the evidence from science.
He was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of human DNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.
He wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
Also... these simple yet powerful quotes from men of science:
“There is no conflict between science and religion. Our knowledge of God is made larger with every discovery we make about the world.”
–Joseph H. Taylor, Jr., who received the 1993 Nobel Prize in Physics for the discovery of the first known binary pulsar.
And this:
"I build molecules for a living. I can't begin to tell you how difficult that job is. I stand in awe of God because of what he has done through his creation. My faith has been increased through my research. Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God."
-Dr. James Tour, voted one of the top 10 chemists in the world. A strong theist and one of the world's leading chemists in the field of nanotechnology.
He shows here how complex and unlikely atheistic abiogenesis is, due to its extreme complexity.
He also goes much more in depth with a 13 episode series on abiogenesis. Here: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLILWudw_84t2THBvJZFyuLA0qvxwrIBDr
“One way to learn the mind of the Creator is to study His creation. We must pay God the compliment of studying His work of art and this should apply to all realms of human thought. A refusal to use our intelligence honestly is an act of contempt for Him who gave us that intelligence.”
— Physicist Ernest Walton, who won the Nobel Prize in Physics for his experiments done at Cambridge University, and so became the first person in history to artificially split the atom.
“I believe that the more thoroughly science is studied, the further does it take us from anything comparable to atheism.”
And
“If you study science deep enough and long enough, it will force you to believe in God.”
—William Kelvin, who was noted for his theoretical work on thermodynamics, the concept of absolute zero and the Kelvin temperature scale based upon it.
“God created everything by number, weight and measure.”
—Sir Isaac Newton,
“I have concluded that we are in a world made by rules created by an intelligence. Believe me, everything that we call chance today won’t make sense anymore. To me it is clear that we exist in a plan which is governed by rules that were created, shaped by a universal intelligence and not by chance.”
–Michio Kaku, theoretical physicist and string theory pioneer.
and I could go on.....
So unless you've read some of the scientific views behind belief in God I would say you're really not being an impartial juror.
These men all saw "proof" very clearly in the science they studied. They saw proof. Have you looked at the evidence they looked at?
Mind you, I'm not at all saying that each one of those men are believers in the God of the Bible (but most were).
But I'm saying they were/are not atheists... and that was based upon the science they observed in their respective fields.
To them, there was clear proof atheism was not an option based upon science.
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There are several things that point to the fact that God exists.
(Other than of course that I now know him and have a personal relationship with him. But that's for a different discussion.)
From a logical point of view we have this. The universe is fine tuned for life. The myriad of constants that need to be set to specific values to facilitate the development of human life:
*the gravitational constant,
*the coulomb constant,
*the cosmological constant,
*the habitable zone of our sun
*and many more.
If these constants were changed even the smallest amount, (down to dozens of zeros after the decimal point) - life as we know it wouldn't exist.
When we look at the universe and the planet, it is apparent the world seems to support us perfectly, and that seems really unlikely to happen by chance.
"The fine-tuning problem is also treated with great seriousness among contemporary cosmologists, including those committed to naturalism"
And you can read this excellent summary on the fine-tuning of the universe from an MIT graduate (scientist) who says the same thing. His Doctorate is in two fields: Earth sciences and physics.
http://geraldschroeder.com/wordpress/?page_id=49#
Then we have this: The mathematical probability of Life forming by chance. It's not possible from a logical point of view.
For instance I can look at any building and tell you that there was an architect behind it. I may not know who the architect was, but I am 100% sure that every building had somebody designing it before they built it. That random chance could not have made any building. That's logical to me.
The same thing is true with a single cell. Or the human body. It's so utterly complex.... and complex, functional, intelligent things are required to have a designing mind behind them. Chaos does not produce order. Chaos does not produce information. Life (DNA) contains information.
It's like this, if I was walking along a beach on a deserted island in the ocean, and I thought no one was on the island. And I walked along and then on the sand I suddenly see somebody wrote , John loves Sally, inside a big heart in the sand.
I can assume one of two things. Either that theocean waves did that by chance, or I am not alone on the island, that there is a thinking mind that wrote that.
For me, logic clearly dictates the second one.
There had to be a thinking mind that wrote that. So we take that same principle and apply it to life or specifically DNA.
DNA is much more complex than John loves Sally. It's a software code that tells the human body what to do. Infinitely more complex than computer software. And software is always written by a thinking Mind. By teams of Engineers.
The Apple or Windows operating systems were written by teams of Engineers. And yet they're child's play compared to how complex the human body and DNA is. So for me that's conclusive evidence that there was a thinking mind behind it all.
And that's the mere starting point for showing God existing.
I am not alone in this line of thought. Great scientists in the past have all seen that design does not happen by chance.
Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D left atheism after seeing the evidence from science.
He was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of human DNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.
He wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
And this:
"I build molecules for a living. I can't begin to tell you how difficult that job is. I stand in awe of God because of what he has done through his creation. My faith has been increased through my research. Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God."
-Dr. James Tour, voted one of the top 10 chemists in the world. A strong theist and one of the world's leading chemists in the field of nanotechnology.
He shows here how complex and unlikely atheistic abiogenesis is, due to its extreme complexity.
He also goes much more in depth with a 13 episode series on abiogenesis. Here: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLILWudw_84t2THBvJZFyuLA0qvxwrIBDr
And this:
“I have concluded that we are in a world made by rules created by an intelligence. Believe me, everything that we call chance today won’t make sense anymore. To me it is clear that we exist in a plan which is governed by rules that were created, shaped by a universal intelligence and not by chance.”
–Michio Kaku, theoretical physicist and string theory pioneer.
Again, I cannot list all the mathematical formulas here to show the utter complexity of life, but if these great minds say it could not happen by chance, it's something to think about.
So all this is just scratching the surface for me to show God exists. We have not even touched upon topics like predictive prophecy, archeology, and more.
There is not an iota of doubt in my mind, God exists.
>religion is a means of business.
And for some it might be sadly. But truth is not determined by what an evil person may or may not do.
God exists. Design tells me there is a designer. If I come across a huge sand castle on the beach I can assume one of two things. A) Time and chance made it. B) there was a thinking mind behind it. Logic tells me to choose B.
Perhaps your atheism has not led you to read any of these great scientific minds and their thoughts on God's existence. Let me encourage you to do so because their writings are very well respected.
Allan Sandage (arguably the greatest astronomer of the 20th century), left atheism.
He says, “The [scientific] world is too complicated in all parts and interconnections to be due to chance alone,”
Read more here:
https://thinkingmatters.org.nz/2017/11/allan-sandage/
Christopher Isham (perhaps Britain's greatest quantum cosmologist), a believer in God's existence.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Isham
Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D also left atheism. Was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of human DNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.
Wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
Also, these simple yet powerful quotes from men of science:
“There is no conflict between science and religion. Our knowledge of God is made larger with every discovery we make about the world.”
–Joseph H. Taylor, Jr., who received the 1993 Nobel Prize in Physics for the discovery of the first known binary pulsar.
“I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know his thoughts; the rest are details.”
–Albert Einstein
“One way to learn the mind of the Creator is to study His creation. We must pay God the compliment of studying His work of art and this should apply to all realms of human thought. A refusal to use our intelligence honestly is an act of contempt for Him who gave us that intelligence.”
— Physicist Ernest Walton, who won the Nobel Prize in Physics for his experiments done at Cambridge University, and so became the first person in history to artificially split the atom.
“I believe that the more thoroughly science is studied, the further does it take us from anything comparable to atheism.”
And
“If you study science deep enough and long enough, it will force you to believe in God.”
—Lord William Kelvin, who was noted for his theoretical work on thermodynamics, the concept of absolute zero and the Kelvin temperature scale based upon it.
“God created everything by number, weight and measure.”
“In the absence of any other proof, the thumb alone would convince me of God’s existence.”
—Sir Isaac Newton,
“I have concluded that we are in a world made by rules created by an intelligence. Believe me, everything that we call chance today won’t make sense anymore. To me it is clear that we exist in a plan which is governed by rules that were created, shaped by a universal intelligence and not by chance.”
–Michio Kaku, theoretical physicist and string theory pioneer.
And I could go on and on and on and on.
Note: I am not saying all these minds were Christians, but just that several saw immense problems with atheism.
So unless you've read some of the scientific views behind belief in God I would say you're really not being an impartial juror.
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Actually atheism is blind faith.
If you believe there was a singularity which produced the entire known universe and from that extreme chaos eventually it produced such complexity as life, Mozart's concertos, etc. Then it is bad science. You believe chaos eventually formed into order. This is against the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Thus, against a scientific law.
It shows you have not read journals which show even atheists are wrestling with these very issues.
Your atheism has gone unchallenged due to your not doing your homework by reading intelligent theists.
Let me encourage you to read an excellent book called "Stealing from God - why atheists need God to make their case." Dr. Frank Turek looks at the reasonings of Dawkins, Harris, etc and shows how their reasoning is faulty. Really excellent book.
In the meantime, I would suggest the following videos for an overview :
Dr. Frank Turek "I don't have enough faith to be an atheist" : https://youtu.be/ybjG3tdArE0
Also this.
Dr. William Lane Craig lovingly demolishes atheism.
Perhaps your atheism has not led you to read any of these great scientific minds and their thoughts on God's existence. Let me encourage you to do so because their writings are very well respected.
Allan Sandage (arguably the greatest astronomer of the 20th century), left atheism.
He says, “The [scientific] world is too complicated in all parts and interconnections to be due to chance alone,”
Read more here:
https://thinkingmatters.org.nz/2017/11/allan-sandage/
"You may fly to the ends of the world and find no God but the Author of Salvation."
James Clerk Maxwell, a deeply committed Christian. Also, a Scientist and Mathematician who has influenced all of modern day physics and voted one of the top three physicists of all time.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Clerk_Maxwell
Albert Einstein once said of him, 'I stand not on the shoulders of Newton, but on the shoulders of James Clerk Maxwell.'
Christopher Isham (perhaps Britain's greatest quantum cosmologist), a believer in God's existence based upon the science he sees.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Isham
Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D also left atheism after seeing the evidence from science.
He was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of human DNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.
He wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
Also... these simple yet powerful quotes from men of science:
“There is no conflict between science and religion. Our knowledge of God is made larger with every discovery we make about the world.”
–Joseph H. Taylor, Jr., who received the 1993 Nobel Prize in Physics for the discovery of the first known binary pulsar.
And this:
"I build molecules for a living. I can't begin to tell you how difficult that job is. I stand in awe of God because of what he has done through his creation. My faith has been increased through my research. Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God."
-Dr. James Tour, voted one of the top 10 chemists in the world. A strong theist and one of the world's leading chemists in the field of nanotechnology.
He shows here how complex and unlikely atheistic abiogenesis is, due to its extreme complexity.
He also goes much more in depth with a 13 episode series on abiogenesis. Here: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLILWudw_84t2THBvJZFyuLA0qvxwrIBDr
“One way to learn the mind of the Creator is to study His creation. We must pay God the compliment of studying His work of art and this should apply to all realms of human thought. A refusal to use our intelligence honestly is an act of contempt for Him who gave us that intelligence.”
— Physicist Ernest Walton, who won the Nobel Prize in Physics for his experiments done at Cambridge University, and so became the first person in history to artificially split the atom.
“I believe that the more thoroughly science is studied, the further does it take us from anything comparable to atheism.”
And
“If you study science deep enough and long enough, it will force you to believe in God.”
—William Kelvin, who was noted for his theoretical work on thermodynamics, the concept of absolute zero and the Kelvin temperature scale based upon it.
“God created everything by number, weight and measure.”
—Sir Isaac Newton,
“I have concluded that we are in a world made by rules created by an intelligence. Believe me, everything that we call chance today won’t make sense anymore. To me it is clear that we exist in a plan which is governed by rules that were created, shaped by a universal intelligence and not by chance.”
–Michio Kaku, theoretical physicist and string theory pioneer.
and I could go on.....
So unless you've read some of the scientific views behind belief in God I would say you're really not being an impartial juror.
These men all saw "proof" very clearly in the science they studied. They saw proof. Have you looked at the evidence they looked at?
Mind you, I'm not at all saying that each one of those men are believers in the God of the Bible (but most were).
But I'm saying they were/are not atheists... and that was based upon the science they observed in their respective fields.
To them, there was clear proof atheism was not an option based upon science.
Um, not true. Perhaps your atheism has not led you to read any of these great scientific minds and their thoughts on God's existence. Let me encourage you to do so because their writings are very well respected.
Allan Sandage (arguably the greatest astronomer of the 20th century), left atheism.
He says, “The [scientific] world is too complicated in all parts and interconnections to be due to chance alone,”
Read more here:
https://thinkingmatters.org.nz/2017/11/allan-sandage/
"You may fly to the ends of the world and find no God but the Author of Salvation."
James Clerk Maxwell, a deeply committed Christian. Also, a Scientist and Mathematician who has influenced all of modern day physics and voted one of the top three physicists of all time.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Clerk_Maxwell
Albert Einstein once said of him, 'I stand not on the shoulders of Newton, but on the shoulders of James Clerk Maxwell.'
Christopher Isham (perhaps Britain's greatest quantum cosmologist), a believer in God's existence based upon the science he sees.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Isham
Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D also left atheism after seeing the evidence from science.
He was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of human DNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.
He wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
Also... these simple yet powerful quotes from men of science:
“There is no conflict between science and religion. Our knowledge of God is made larger with every discovery we make about the world.”
–Joseph H. Taylor, Jr., who received the 1993 Nobel Prize in Physics for the discovery of the first known binary pulsar.
And this:
"I build molecules for a living. I can't begin to tell you how difficult that job is. I stand in awe of God because of what he has done through his creation. My faith has been increased through my research. Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God."
-Dr. James Tour, voted one of the top 10 chemists in the world. A strong theist and one of the world's leading chemists in the field of nanotechnology.
He shows here how complex and unlikely atheistic abiogenesis is, due to its extreme complexity.
He also goes much more in depth with a 13 episode series on abiogenesis. Here: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLILWudw_84t2THBvJZFyuLA0qvxwrIBDr
“One way to learn the mind of the Creator is to study His creation. We must pay God the compliment of studying His work of art and this should apply to all realms of human thought. A refusal to use our intelligence honestly is an act of contempt for Him who gave us that intelligence.”
— Physicist Ernest Walton, who won the Nobel Prize in Physics for his experiments done at Cambridge University, and so became the first person in history to artificially split the atom.
“I believe that the more thoroughly science is studied, the further does it take us from anything comparable to atheism.”
And
“If you study science deep enough and long enough, it will force you to believe in God.”
—William Kelvin, who was noted for his theoretical work on thermodynamics, the concept of absolute zero and the Kelvin temperature scale based upon it.
“God created everything by number, weight and measure.”
—Sir Isaac Newton,
“I have concluded that we are in a world made by rules created by an intelligence. Believe me, everything that we call chance today won’t make sense anymore. To me it is clear that we exist in a plan which is governed by rules that were created, shaped by a universal intelligence and not by chance.”
–Michio Kaku, theoretical physicist and string theory pioneer.
and I could go on.....
So unless you've read some of the scientific views behind belief in God I would say you're really not being an impartial juror.
These men all saw "proof" very clearly in the science they studied. They saw proof. Have you looked at the evidence they looked at?
Mind you, I'm not at all saying that each one of those men are believers in the God of the Bible (but most were).
But I'm saying they were/are not atheists... and that was based upon the science they observed in their respective fields.
To them, there was clear proof atheism was not an option based upon science.
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| Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence fo… | - | - | 4.5/5.0 |
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>I'm espousing the standard view of scholars on Daniel. You're in the fringe
Nope. Sorry I dont buy it at all.
You are reading very liberal scholars who also deny many other things. Those "scholars" (I've read some of them) are in some cases practical atheists.
There are many conservative scholars who clearly see Yeshua in the text, including Messianic Jews in Israel who read the Hebrew fluently. They take precedent.
I would include Messianic Jewish author Dr. Michael Brown who wrote an excellent five volume series called "Answering Jewish objections to Jesus." He has a whole section on Daniel 9. He is a well respected scholar with his Ph.D. in ancient near eastern languages.
Also, Here are Hebrew speaking Israelis explaining the text pointing to Yeshua.
They take precident over your non-jewish, non-Hebrew speaking atheistic scholars.
https://www.oneforisrael.org/jewish-evangelism/daniel-9-when-will-the-messiah-come/
As a side note, in case you forgot, I am Jewish and came to be a Messianic Jew over three decades ago after researching this fully. (Now I am also sure in another aspect added on, I know His presence.) I did not grow up as a follower of Yeshua at all.
Now, back to the text.... you completely fail to mention how your view meshes with Daniel 9:24. It demands a Messiah who could make atonement, take away sin, and bring in everlasting righteousness.
Additionally, your interpretation of an anointed one coming after the 7 weeks is fallacious since the Hebrew text requires a later scribal grammar mark inserted to come up with that interpretation.
In Dan 9:25 the Masoretic tradition places what is called a disjunctive accent (atnah) between the words for “seven sevens / weeks” and “sixty-two sevens.”
A disjunctive accent served to separate items on either side of the accent. That means the Masoretes intentionally inserted a break (a disjunction) between the 7 weeks and the following 62. Nut the text days clearly the anointed one comes after both periods, hence 69 weeks.
This brings us unquestionably clearly to the time of Yeshua.
I also notice you fail to mention the intersection of isaiah 53 and numerous other prophetic passages which speak of a suffering Messiah first.
You also fail to see how the Messiah has changed the world and the nations (goyim) shall come to Him, just like the Hebrew Bible says.
All of these make for a powerful case for the Messiahship of Jesus.
And we have not even touched upon the major problems with atheism.
From a logical point of view we have this. The universe is fine tuned for life. The myriad of constants that need to be set to specific values to facilitate the development of human life:
*the gravitational constant,
*the coulomb constant,
*the cosmological constant,
*the habitable zone of our sun
*and many more.
If these constants were changed even the smallest amount, (down to dozens of zeros after the decimal point) - life as we know it wouldn't exist.
When we look at the universe and the planet, it is apparent the world seems to support us perfectly, and that seems really unlikely to happen by chance.
"The fine-tuning problem is also treated with great seriousness among contemporary cosmologists, including those committed to naturalism"
And you can read this excellent summary on the fine-tuning of the universe from an MIT graduate (scientist) who says the same thing. His Doctorate is in two fields: Earth sciences and physics.
http://geraldschroeder.com/wordpress/?page_id=49#
Then we have this: The mathematical probability of Life forming by chance. It's not possible from a logical point of view.
For instance I can look at any building and tell you that there was an architect behind it. I may not know who the architect was, but I am 100% sure that every building had somebody designing it before they built it. That random chance could not have made any building. That's logical to me.
The same thing is true with a single cell. Or the human body. It's so utterly complex.... and complex, functional, intelligent things are required to have a designing mind behind them. Chaos does not produce order. Chaos does not produce information. Life (DNA) contains information.
It's like this, if I was walking along a beach on a deserted island in the ocean, and I thought no one was on the island. And I walked along and then on the sand I suddenly see somebody wrote , John loves Sally, inside a big heart in the sand.
I can assume one of two things. Either that theocean waves did that by chance, or I am not alone on the island, that there is a thinking mind that wrote that.
For me, logic clearly dictates the second one.
There had to be a thinking mind that wrote that. So we take that same principle and apply it to life or specifically DNA.
DNA is much more complex than John loves Sally. It's a software code that tells the human body what to do. Infinitely more complex than computer software. And software is always written by a thinking Mind. By teams of Engineers.
The Apple or Windows operating systems were written by teams of Engineers. And yet they're child's play compared to how complex the human body and DNA is. So for me that's conclusive evidence that there was a thinking mind behind it all.
And that's the mere starting point for showing God existing.
I am not alone in this line of thought. Great scientists in the past have all seen that design does not happen by chance.
Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D left atheism after seeing the evidence from science.
He was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of human DNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.
He wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
And this:
"I build molecules for a living. I can't begin to tell you how difficult that job is. I stand in awe of God because of what he has done through his creation. My faith has been increased through my research. Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God."
-Dr. James Tour, voted one of the top 10 chemists in the world. A strong theist and one of the world's leading chemists in the field of nanotechnology.
He shows here how complex and unlikely atheistic abiogenesis is, due to its extreme complexity.
He also goes much more in depth with a 13 episode series on abiogenesis. Here: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLILWudw_84t2THBvJZFyuLA0qvxwrIBDr
And this:
“I have concluded that we are in a world made by rules created by an intelligence. Believe me, everything that we call chance today won’t make sense anymore. To me it is clear that we exist in a plan which is governed by rules that were created, shaped by a universal intelligence and not by chance.”
–Michio Kaku, theoretical physicist and string theory pioneer.
Again, I cannot list all the mathematical formulas here to show the utter complexity of life, but if these great minds say it could not happen by chance, it's something to think about.
So all this is just scratching the surface for me to show God exists. We have not even touched upon topics like predictive prophecy, archeology, and more.
There is not an iota of doubt in my mind, God exists.
| Item | Current | Lowest | Reviews |
|---|---|---|---|
| Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence fo… | - | - | 4.5/5.0 |
^Item Info | Bot Info | Trigger
| Item | Current | Lowest | Reviews |
|---|---|---|---|
| Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence fo… | - | - | 4.5/5.0 |
^Item Info | Bot Info | Trigger
Perhaps your atheism has not led you to read any of these great scientific minds and their thoughts on God's existence. Let me encourage you to do so because their writings are very well respected.
Allan Sandage (arguably the greatest astronomer of the 20th century), left atheism.
He says, “The [scientific] world is too complicated in all parts and interconnections to be due to chance alone,”
Read more here:
https://thinkingmatters.org.nz/2017/11/allan-sandage/
"You may fly to the ends of the world and find no God but the Author of Salvation."
James Clerk Maxwell, a deeply committed Christian. Also, a Scientist and Mathematician who has influenced all of modern day physics and voted one of the top three physicists of all time.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Clerk_Maxwell
Albert Einstein once said of him, 'I stand not on the shoulders of Newton, but on the shoulders of James Clerk Maxwell.'
Christopher Isham (perhaps Britain's greatest quantum cosmologist), a believer in God's existence based upon the science he sees.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Isham
Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D also left atheism after seeing the evidence from science.
He was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of human DNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.
He wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
Also... these simple yet powerful quotes from men of science:
“There is no conflict between science and religion. Our knowledge of God is made larger with every discovery we make about the world.”
–Joseph H. Taylor, Jr., who received the 1993 Nobel Prize in Physics for the discovery of the first known binary pulsar.
And this:
"I build molecules for a living. I can't begin to tell you how difficult that job is. I stand in awe of God because of what he has done through his creation. My faith has been increased through my research. Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God."
-Dr. James Tour, voted one of the top 10 chemists in the world. A strong theist and one of the world's leading chemists in the field of nanotechnology.
He shows here how complex and unlikely atheistic abiogenesis is, due to its extreme complexity.
He also goes much more in depth with a 13 episode series on abiogenesis. Here: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLILWudw_84t2THBvJZFyuLA0qvxwrIBDr
“One way to learn the mind of the Creator is to study His creation. We must pay God the compliment of studying His work of art and this should apply to all realms of human thought. A refusal to use our intelligence honestly is an act of contempt for Him who gave us that intelligence.”
— Physicist Ernest Walton, who won the Nobel Prize in Physics for his experiments done at Cambridge University, and so became the first person in history to artificially split the atom.
“I believe that the more thoroughly science is studied, the further does it take us from anything comparable to atheism.”
And
“If you study science deep enough and long enough, it will force you to believe in God.”
—William Kelvin, who was noted for his theoretical work on thermodynamics, the concept of absolute zero and the Kelvin temperature scale based upon it.
“God created everything by number, weight and measure.”
—Sir Isaac Newton,
“I have concluded that we are in a world made by rules created by an intelligence. Believe me, everything that we call chance today won’t make sense anymore. To me it is clear that we exist in a plan which is governed by rules that were created, shaped by a universal intelligence and not by chance.”
–Michio Kaku, theoretical physicist and string theory pioneer.
and I could go on.....
So unless you've read some of the scientific views behind belief in God I would say you're really not being an impartial juror.
These men all saw "proof" very clearly in the science they studied. They saw proof. Have you looked at the evidence they looked at?
Mind you, I'm not at all saying that each one of those men are believers in the God of the Bible (but most were).
But I'm saying they were/are not atheists... and that was based upon the science they observed in their respective fields.
To them, there was clear proof atheism was not an option based upon science.
Perhaps your atheism has not led you to read any of these great scientific minds and their thoughts on God's existence. Let me encourage you to do so because their writings are very well respected.
Allan Sandage (arguably the greatest astronomer of the 20th century), left atheism.
He says, “The [scientific] world is too complicated in all parts and interconnections to be due to chance alone,”
Read more here:
https://thinkingmatters.org.nz/2017/11/allan-sandage/
Christopher Isham (perhaps Britain's greatest quantum cosmologist), a believer in God's existence.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Isham
Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D also left atheism. Was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of human DNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.
Wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
Also, these simple yet powerful quotes from men of science:
“There is no conflict between science and religion. Our knowledge of God is made larger with every discovery we make about the world.”
–Joseph H. Taylor, Jr., who received the 1993 Nobel Prize in Physics for the discovery of the first known binary pulsar.
“I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know his thoughts; the rest are details.”
–Albert Einstein
“One way to learn the mind of the Creator is to study His creation. We must pay God the compliment of studying His work of art and this should apply to all realms of human thought. A refusal to use our intelligence honestly is an act of contempt for Him who gave us that intelligence.”
— Physicist Ernest Walton, who won the Nobel Prize in Physics for his experiments done at Cambridge University, and so became the first person in history to artificially split the atom.
“I believe that the more thoroughly science is studied, the further does it take us from anything comparable to atheism.”
And
“If you study science deep enough and long enough, it will force you to believe in God.”
—William Kelvin, who was noted for his theoretical work on thermodynamics, the concept of absolute zero and the Kelvin temperature scale based upon it.
“God created everything by number, weight and measure.”
“In the absence of any other proof, the thumb alone would convince me of God’s existence.”
—Sir Isaac Newton,
“I have concluded that we are in a world made by rules created by an intelligence. Believe me, everything that we call chance today won’t make sense anymore. To me it is clear that we exist in a plan which is governed by rules that were created, shaped by a universal intelligence and not by chance.”
–Michio Kaku, theoretical physicist and string theory pioneer.
And I could go on and on and on and on.
Note: I am not saying all these minds were Christians, but just that several saw immense problems with atheism.
So unless you've read some of the scientific views behind belief in God I would say you're really not being an impartial juror.
Thanks, but my time is extremely limited. Most days I answer questions before work. Weekends a bit less time crunch, but still. I actually have to limit my time on reddit.
If I concentrate on only one conversation then that means I lose 10 other people who might be very sincere asking top level questions.
Additionally, many of these points I bring up are already well documented by other authors. The field is called Apologetics. Dr. William Lane Craig has some good stuff.
Also, Messianic Jewish authors like Dr. Michael Brown has excellent material.
The point is this, most people have a kindergarten understanding of the faith. So when people move "to the other side" and then I dig deeper into why - I'm like, "wow, you really didn't do your homework before you moved." Some of their "inconsistencies" are so easily answered makes me wonder why.
To me, atheism is not logical. And I know you said you are not an atheist, but your post certainly sounded like it. Militantly so.
For me, there are several things that point to the fact that God exists.
(Other than of course that I now know him and have a personal relationship with him. But that's for a different discussion.)
From a logical point of view we have this. The universe is fine tuned for life. The myriad of constants that need to be set to specific values to facilitate the development of human life:
*the gravitational constant,
*the coulomb constant,
*the cosmological constant,
*the habitable zone of our sun
*and many more.
If these constants were changed even the smallest amount, (down to dozens of zeros after the decimal point) - life as we know it wouldn't exist.
When we look at the universe and the planet, it is apparent the world seems to support us perfectly, and that seems really unlikely to happen by chance.
"The fine-tuning problem is also treated with great seriousness among contemporary cosmologists, including those committed to naturalism"
And you can read this excellent summary on the fine-tuning of the universe from an MIT graduate (scientist) who says the same thing. His Doctorate is in two fields: Earth sciences and physics.
http://geraldschroeder.com/wordpress/?page_id=49#
Then we have this: The mathematical probability of Life forming by chance. It's not possible from a logical point of view.
For instance I can look at any building and tell you that there was an architect behind it. I may not know who the architect was, but I am 100% sure that every building had somebody designing it before they built it. That random chance could not have made any building. That's logical to me.
The same thing is true with a single cell. Or the human body. It's so utterly complex.... and complex, functional, intelligent things are required to have a designing mind behind them. Chaos does not produce order. Chaos does not produce information. Life (DNA) contains information.
It's like this, if I was walking along a beach on a deserted island in the ocean, and I thought no one was on the island. And I walked along and then on the sand I suddenly see somebody wrote , John loves Sally, inside a big heart in the sand.
I can assume one of two things. Either that theocean waves did that by chance, or I am not alone on the island, that there is a thinking mind that wrote that.
For me, logic clearly dictates the second one.
There had to be a thinking mind that wrote that. So we take that same principle and apply it to life or specifically DNA.
DNA is much more complex than John loves Sally. It's a software code that tells the human body what to do. Infinitely more complex than computer software. And software is always written by a thinking Mind. By teams of Engineers.
The Apple or Windows operating systems were written by teams of Engineers. And yet they're child's play compared to how complex the human body and DNA is. So for me that's conclusive evidence that there was a thinking mind behind it all.
And that's the mere starting point for showing God existing.
I am not alone in this line of thought. Great scientists in the past have all seen that design does not happen by chance.
Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D left atheism after seeing the evidence from science.
He was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of human DNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.
He wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
And this:
"I build molecules for a living. I can't begin to tell you how difficult that job is. I stand in awe of God because of what he has done through his creation. My faith has been increased through my research. Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God."
-Dr. James Tour, voted one of the top 10 chemists in the world. A strong theist and one of the world's leading chemists in the field of nanotechnology.
He shows here how complex and unlikely atheistic abiogenesis is, due to its extreme complexity.
He also goes much more in depth with a 13 episode series on abiogenesis. Here: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLILWudw_84t2THBvJZFyuLA0qvxwrIBDr
And this:
“I have concluded that we are in a world made by rules created by an intelligence. Believe me, everything that we call chance today won’t make sense anymore. To me it is clear that we exist in a plan which is governed by rules that were created, shaped by a universal intelligence and not by chance.”
–Michio Kaku, theoretical physicist and string theory pioneer.
Again, I cannot list all the mathematical formulas here to show the utter complexity of life, but if these great minds say it could not happen by chance, it's something to think about.
So all this is just scratching the surface for me to show God exists. We have not even touched upon topics like predictive prophecy, archeology, and more.
There is not an iota of doubt in my mind, God exists.
Jesus Christ is the Messiah pointed to in prophecy.
There are several things that point to the fact that God exists.
(Other than of course that I now know him and have a personal relationship with him. But that's for a different discussion.)
From a logical point of view we have this. The universe is fine tuned for life. The myriad of constants that need to be set to specific values to facilitate the development of human life:
*the gravitational constant,
*the coulomb constant,
*the cosmological constant,
*the habitable zone of our sun
*and many more.
If these constants were changed even the smallest amount, (down to dozens of zeros after the decimal point) - life as we know it wouldn't exist.
When we look at the universe and the planet, it is apparent the world seems to support us perfectly, and that seems really unlikely to happen by chance.
"The fine-tuning problem is also treated with great seriousness among contemporary cosmologists, including those committed to naturalism"
And you can read this excellent summary on the fine-tuning of the universe from an MIT graduate (scientist) who says the same thing. His Doctorate is in two fields: Earth sciences and physics.
http://geraldschroeder.com/wordpress/?page_id=49#
Then we have this: The mathematical probability of Life forming by chance. It's not possible from a logical point of view.
For instance I can look at any building and tell you that there was an architect behind it. I may not know who the architect was, but I am 100% sure that every building had somebody designing it before they built it. That random chance could not have made any building. That's logical to me.
The same thing is true with a single cell. Or the human body. It's so utterly complex.... and complex, functional, intelligent things are required to have a designing mind behind them. Chaos does not produce order. Chaos does not produce information. Life (DNA) contains information.
It's like this, if I was walking along a beach on a deserted island in the ocean, and I thought no one was on the island. And I walked along and then on the sand I suddenly see somebody wrote , John loves Sally, inside a big heart in the sand.
I can assume one of two things. Either that theocean waves did that by chance, or I am not alone on the island, that there is a thinking mind that wrote that.
For me, logic clearly dictates the second one.
There had to be a thinking mind that wrote that. So we take that same principle and apply it to life or specifically DNA.
DNA is much more complex than John loves Sally. It's a software code that tells the human body what to do. Infinitely more complex than computer software. And software is always written by a thinking Mind. By teams of Engineers.
The Apple or Windows operating systems were written by teams of Engineers. And yet they're child's play compared to how complex the human body and DNA is. So for me that's conclusive evidence that there was a thinking mind behind it all.
And that's the mere starting point for showing God existing.
I am not alone in this line of thought. Great scientists in the past have all seen that design does not happen by chance.
Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D left atheism after seeing the evidence from science.
He was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of human DNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.
He wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
And this:
"I build molecules for a living. I can't begin to tell you how difficult that job is. I stand in awe of God because of what he has done through his creation. My faith has been increased through my research. Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God."
-Dr. James Tour, voted one of the top 10 chemists in the world. A strong theist and one of the world's leading chemists in the field of nanotechnology.
He shows here how complex and unlikely atheistic abiogenesis is, due to its extreme complexity.
He also goes much more in depth with a 13 episode series on abiogenesis. Here: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLILWudw_84t2THBvJZFyuLA0qvxwrIBDr
And this:
“I have concluded that we are in a world made by rules created by an intelligence. Believe me, everything that we call chance today won’t make sense anymore. To me it is clear that we exist in a plan which is governed by rules that were created, shaped by a universal intelligence and not by chance.”
–Michio Kaku, theoretical physicist and string theory pioneer.
Again, I cannot list all the mathematical formulas here to show the utter complexity of life, but if these great minds say it could not happen by chance, it's something to think about.
So all this is just scratching the surface for me to show God exists. We have not even touched upon topics like predictive prophecy, archeology, and more.
There is not an iota of doubt in my mind, God exists.
Non-denominational protestant and have a science degree. The current scientific consensus puts the age of universe at about 13.77 billion years old (+/- 20 million years). Note: cosmologists <em>slightly</em> disagreeing over the age is both fascinating and way over my head.
I agree with your take on YE creationists. Taking biblical verses out of context and misinterpreting the Earth as a few thousand years old is not biblical, unscientific, and anti-intellectual to the point of being insulting. Christianity and science are NOT mutually exclusive, and I've argued with close minded people at both extremes.
I highly recommend The Language of God by Francis Collins
>I never said I trust we will know one day. You're strawmanning me. We may never really know.
Nonsense. As an atheist, you ultimately believe it DID happen naturally. That's faith. Whether the answer is ever found or not is irrelevant.
>That's one guy. Good for you.
Nope. You (like most atheists) have not done your homework.
Perhaps your atheism has not led you to read any of these great scientific minds and their thoughts on God's existence. Let me encourage you to do so because their writings are very well respected.
Allan Sandage (arguably the greatest astronomer of the 20th century), left atheism.
He says, “The [scientific] world is too complicated in all parts and interconnections to be due to chance alone,”
Read more here:
https://thinkingmatters.org.nz/2017/11/allan-sandage/
"You may fly to the ends of the world and find no God but the Author of Salvation."
James Clerk Maxwell, a deeply committed Christian. Also, a Scientist and Mathematician who has influenced all of modern day physics and voted one of the top three physicists of all time.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Clerk_Maxwell
Albert Einstein once said of him, 'I stand not on the shoulders of Newton, but on the shoulders of James Clerk Maxwell.'
Christopher Isham (perhaps Britain's greatest quantum cosmologist), a believer in God's existence.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Isham
Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D also left atheism after seeing the evidence from science.
He was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of human DNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.
He wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
Also... these simple yet powerful quotes from men of science:
“There is no conflict between science and religion. Our knowledge of God is made larger with every discovery we make about the world.”
–Joseph H. Taylor, Jr., who received the 1993 Nobel Prize in Physics for the discovery of the first known binary pulsar.
And this:
"I build molecules for a living. I can't begin to tell you how difficult that job is. I stand in awe of God because of what he has done through his creation. My faith has been increased through my research. Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God."
Again, (previously mentioned) Dr. James Tour, voted one of the top 10 chemists in the world. A strong theist and one of the world's leading chemists in the field of nanotechnology.
“One way to learn the mind of the Creator is to study His creation. We must pay God the compliment of studying His work of art and this should apply to all realms of human thought. A refusal to use our intelligence honestly is an act of contempt for Him who gave us that intelligence.”
— Physicist Ernest Walton, who won the Nobel Prize in Physics for his experiments done at Cambridge University, and so became the first person in history to artificially split the atom.
“I believe that the more thoroughly science is studied, the further does it take us from anything comparable to atheism.”
And
“If you study science deep enough and long enough, it will force you to believe in God.”
—William Kelvin, who was noted for his theoretical work on thermodynamics, the concept of absolute zero and the Kelvin temperature scale based upon it.
“God created everything by number, weight and measure.”
—Sir Isaac Newton,
“I have concluded that we are in a world made by rules created by an intelligence. Believe me, everything that we call chance today won’t make sense anymore. To me it is clear that we exist in a plan which is governed by rules that were created, shaped by a universal intelligence and not by chance.”
–Michio Kaku, theoretical physicist and string theory pioneer.
and I could go on.....
So unless you've read some of the scientific views behind belief in God I would say you're really not being an impartial juror.
These men all saw "proof" very clearly in the science they studied. They saw proof. Have you looked at the evidence they looked at?
Mind you, I'm not at all saying that each one of those men are believers in the God of the Bible (though most are).
But I'm saying they were/are not atheists... and that was based upon the science they observed in their respective fields.
To them, there was clear proof atheism was not an option.
>Your attempt at fine tuning argument is also fallacy,
Nonsense. Avoiding the real issue. Again, shows me you have not done your homework on this issue.
This is not what the scientific community says. You speak from emotion, not research.
This is an issue that even those who are not theists agree exists. You do not seem to realize that it is treated with intellectual respect and still "unknown."
I repeat:
"The fine-tuning problem is also treated with great seriousness among contemporary cosmologists, including those committed to naturalism"
If you believe there was a singularity which produced the entire known universe and from that extreme chaos eventually it produced such complexity as life, Mozart's concertos, etc. Then it is not bad science. You believe chaos eventually formed into order. This is against the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Thus, against a scientific law.
It shows you have not read journals which show even atheist are wrestling with these very issues.
Your atheism has gone unchallenged due to your not doing your homework by reading intelligent theists.
>Have you explored every possible option?
So you are saying "we simply don't know" which is another way of saying "we trust one day we will know how it happened without God" That's faith.
>The funny thing is, even if abiogenesis was proven wrong, you still don't get to pose your god as an answer
Faith again (see above)
>That is not faith, but genetics
Wash, rinse, repeat.
Faith again. You, nor anyone, has no idea how abiogenesis allegedly happened.
As a side note: Dr. James Tour, a strong theist, is one of the leading chemists in the field of nanotechnology and also voted one of the top chemists in the world today shows how complex and unlikely abiogenesis is.
He also goes much more in depth with a 13 episode series on abiogenesis. https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLILWudw_84t2THBvJZFyuLA0qvxwrIBDr
>Either fundamental physical constants >Another false dichotomy.
Nope.
The fundamental constants are constants that if they do not fall in a narrow range it would not lead to a sustained universe and more so life.
There are 6 widely recognized constants required for life to exist.
*the gravitational constant,
*the coulomb constant,
*the cosmological constant,
*the habitable zone of our sun
*and many more.
For instance, the cosmological constant on its own is just 1:10^120 which I'm pretty sure its the most finely tuned constant out of the rest. 1:10^120 is basically a statistical impossibility on its own. Now we got to take into account all 26 and how unlikely those are combined together.
So hypothetically could it have all just been by chance? Yes. But is it the type of chance to take? Absolutely not.
If someone said I have a 1:10^120 chance to survive I'd start writing my will and preparing for my own funeral.
The physical constants required for life are treated with intellectual respect and still "unknown."
"The fine-tuning problem is also treated with great seriousness among contemporary cosmologists, including those committed to naturalism"
And I could go on and on...
So if you believe this all happened without an engineering mind behind it, the odds are against you. You accept it by faith.
You are free to believe in naturalism, but you are making an absolute false claim if you believe science can currently explain all natural processes. You simply have "faith" that one day science will explain everything.
That's fine, but it is a future trust = faith.
Currently, science has multitudes of events that cannot be explained. (Too many to list here.) And more importantly, many events that defy and go against natural causes and laws.
If you say it is nonsense, then you actually have not looked into this.
“I have concluded that we are in a world made by rules created by an intelligence. Believe me, everything that we call chance today won’t make sense anymore. To me it is clear that we exist in a plan which is governed by rules that were created, shaped by a universal intelligence and not by chance.”
–Michio Kaku, theoretical physicist and string theory pioneer.
Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D also left atheism after seeing the evidence from science.
He was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of human DNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.
He wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
And many more like this.
Again, I cannot list all the mathematical formulas here to show the utter complexity of life, but if these great minds say it could not happen by chance, it's something to think about.
>complexity is not the mark of engineering.
Sure it is.
Things that are engineered are a product of thought. I have no idea who was on the team that programmed my OS. But I am 100% sure there was a thinking mind(s) behind my OS. I would be foolish to believe my OS happened at random.
So too, DNA is a chemical OS. Random chance does not write software. A thinking mind writes complex code.
This is the first evidence that we were Created, Designed, from a Engineer, not a product of chance.
This is the first step in seeing the mind of God. This is proof of God's existence that these great minds understood.
Perhaps your atheism has not led you to read any of these great scientific minds and their thoughts on God's existence. Let me encourage you to do so because their writings are very well respected.
Allan Sandage (arguably the greatest astronomer of the 20th century), left atheism.
He says, “The [scientific] world is too complicated in all parts and interconnections to be due to chance alone,”
Read more here:
https://thinkingmatters.org.nz/2017/11/allan-sandage/
"You may fly to the ends of the world and find no God but the Author of Salvation."
James Clerk Maxwell, a deeply committed Christian. Also, a Scientist and Mathematician who has influenced all of modern day physics and voted one of the top three physicists of all time.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Clerk_Maxwell
Albert Einstein once said of him, 'I stand not on the shoulders of Newton, but on the shoulders of James Clerk Maxwell.'
Christopher Isham (perhaps Britain's greatest quantum cosmologist), a believer in God's existence.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Isham
Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D also left atheism after seeing the evidence from science.
He was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of human DNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.
He wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
Also... these simple yet powerful quotes from men of science:
“There is no conflict between science and religion. Our knowledge of God is made larger with every discovery we make about the world.”
–Joseph H. Taylor, Jr., who received the 1993 Nobel Prize in Physics for the discovery of the first known binary pulsar.
And this:
"I build molecules for a living. I can't begin to tell you how difficult that job is. I stand in awe of God because of what he has done through his creation. My faith has been increased through my research. Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God."
-Dr. James Tour, voted one of the top 10 chemists in the world. A strong theist and one of the world's leading chemists in the field of nanotechnology.
He shows here how complex and unlikely atheistic abiogenesis is, due to its extreme complexity.
He also goes much more in depth with a 13 episode series on abiogenesis. Here: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLILWudw_84t2THBvJZFyuLA0qvxwrIBDr
“One way to learn the mind of the Creator is to study His creation. We must pay God the compliment of studying His work of art and this should apply to all realms of human thought. A refusal to use our intelligence honestly is an act of contempt for Him who gave us that intelligence.”
— Physicist Ernest Walton, who won the Nobel Prize in Physics for his experiments done at Cambridge University, and so became the first person in history to artificially split the atom.
“I believe that the more thoroughly science is studied, the further does it take us from anything comparable to atheism.”
And
“If you study science deep enough and long enough, it will force you to believe in God.”
—Lord William Kelvin, who was noted for his theoretical work on thermodynamics, the concept of absolute zero and the Kelvin temperature scale based upon it.
“God created everything by number, weight and measure.”
—Sir Isaac Newton,
“I have concluded that we are in a world made by rules created by an intelligence. Believe me, everything that we call chance today won’t make sense anymore. To me it is clear that we exist in a plan which is governed by rules that were created, shaped by a universal intelligence and not by chance.”
–Michio Kaku, theoretical physicist and string theory pioneer.
and I could go on.....
So unless you've read some of the scientific views behind belief in God I would say you're really not being an impartial juror.
These men all saw "proof" very clearly in the science they studied. They saw proof. Have you looked at the evidence they looked at?
Mind you, I'm not at all saying that each one of those men are believers in the God of the Bible (though most are).
But I'm saying they were/are not atheists... and that was based upon the science they observed in their respective fields.
To them, there was clear proof atheism was not an option.
>No deities known to man exists.
No, atheism is illogical.
This is how we know God exists.
There are in theory two main explanations on the table for the universe's existing, life existing, etc.
1) completely natural causes 2) Theism/God
If one choice can be shown to be so mathematically improbable, so as to be functionally nil, then logically the remaining theory must be correct.
This would not be an appeal to ignorance, but rather deductive reasoning.
And this is exactly why some people in the science field understand that God does exist. They looked at the mathematical probability of the first one (only nature doing this all) and say it's virtually nil.
Therefore, the other possibility is true by virtue of deductive reasoning.
Logic tells me this....
Software is engineered.
Things that are engineered have a mind that designed it.
Things that are engineered are a product of thought. I have no idea who was on the team that programmed my OS. But I am 100% sure there was a thinking mind(s) behind my OS.
So too, DNA is a chemical OS. Random chance does not write software. A thinking mind writes complex code.
This is the first evidence that we were Created, Designed, from a Engineer, not a product of chance.
This is the first step in seeing the mind of God. This is proof of God's existence that these great minds understood.
Perhaps your atheism has not led you to read any of these great scientific minds and their thoughts on God's existence. Let me encourage you to do so because their writings are very well respected.
Allan Sandage (arguably the greatest astronomer of the 20th century), left atheism.
He says, “The [scientific] world is too complicated in all parts and interconnections to be due to chance alone,”
Read more here:
https://thinkingmatters.org.nz/2017/11/allan-sandage/
"You may fly to the ends of the world and find no God but the Author of Salvation."
James Clerk Maxwell, a deeply committed Christian. Also, a Scientist and Mathematician who has influenced all of modern day physics and voted one of the top three physicists of all time.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Clerk_Maxwell
Albert Einstein once said of him, 'I stand not on the shoulders of Newton, but on the shoulders of James Clerk Maxwell.'
Christopher Isham (perhaps Britain's greatest quantum cosmologist), a believer in God's existence.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Isham
Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D also left atheism after seeing the evidence from science.
He was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of human DNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.
He wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
Also... these simple yet powerful quotes from men of science:
“There is no conflict between science and religion. Our knowledge of God is made larger with every discovery we make about the world.”
–Joseph H. Taylor, Jr., who received the 1993 Nobel Prize in Physics for the discovery of the first known binary pulsar.
And this:
"I build molecules for a living. I can't begin to tell you how difficult that job is. I stand in awe of God because of what he has done through his creation. My faith has been increased through my research. Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God."
-Dr. James Tour, voted one of the top 10 chemists in the world. A strong theist and one of the world's leading chemists in the field of nanotechnology.
He shows here how complex and unlikely atheistic abiogenesis is, due to its extreme complexity.
He also goes much more in depth with a 13 episode series on abiogenesis. Here: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLILWudw_84t2THBvJZFyuLA0qvxwrIBDr
“One way to learn the mind of the Creator is to study His creation. We must pay God the compliment of studying His work of art and this should apply to all realms of human thought. A refusal to use our intelligence honestly is an act of contempt for Him who gave us that intelligence.”
— Physicist Ernest Walton, who won the Nobel Prize in Physics for his experiments done at Cambridge University, and so became the first person in history to artificially split the atom.
“I believe that the more thoroughly science is studied, the further does it take us from anything comparable to atheism.”
And
“If you study science deep enough and long enough, it will force you to believe in God.”
—Lord William Kelvin, who was noted for his theoretical work on thermodynamics, the concept of absolute zero and the Kelvin temperature scale based upon it.
“God created everything by number, weight and measure.”
—Sir Isaac Newton,
“I have concluded that we are in a world made by rules created by an intelligence. Believe me, everything that we call chance today won’t make sense anymore. To me it is clear that we exist in a plan which is governed by rules that were created, shaped by a universal intelligence and not by chance.”
–Michio Kaku, theoretical physicist and string theory pioneer.
and I could go on.....
So unless you've read some of the scientific views behind belief in God I would say you're really not being an impartial juror.
These men all saw "proof" very clearly in the science they studied. They saw proof. Have you looked at the evidence they looked at?
Mind you, I'm not at all saying that each one of those men are believers in the God of the Bible (though most are).
But I'm saying they were/are not atheists... and that was based upon the science they observed in their respective fields.
To them, there was clear proof atheism was not an option.
>Naturalism has stronger empirical basis and higher prior probability;
Nonsense. Perhaps your atheism has not led you to read any of these great scientific minds and their thoughts on God's existence. Let me encourage you to do so because their writings are very well respected.
Allan Sandage (arguably the greatest astronomer of the 20th century), left atheism.
He says, “The [scientific] world is too complicated in all parts and interconnections to be due to chance alone,”
Read more here:
https://thinkingmatters.org.nz/2017/11/allan-sandage/
"You may fly to the ends of the world and find no God but the Author of Salvation."
James Clerk Maxwell, a deeply committed Christian. Also, a Scientist and Mathematician who has influenced all of modern day physics and voted one of the top three physicists of all time.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Clerk_Maxwell
Albert Einstein once said of him, 'I stand not on the shoulders of Newton, but on the shoulders of James Clerk Maxwell.'
Christopher Isham (perhaps Britain's greatest quantum cosmologist), a believer in God's existence based upon the science he sees.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Isham
Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D also left atheism after seeing the evidence from science.
He was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of human DNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.
He wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
Also... these simple yet powerful quotes from men of science:
“There is no conflict between science and religion. Our knowledge of God is made larger with every discovery we make about the world.”
–Joseph H. Taylor, Jr., who received the 1993 Nobel Prize in Physics for the discovery of the first known binary pulsar.
And this:
"I build molecules for a living. I can't begin to tell you how difficult that job is. I stand in awe of God because of what he has done through his creation. My faith has been increased through my research. Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God."
-Dr. James Tour, voted one of the top 10 chemists in the world. A strong theist and one of the world's leading chemists in the field of nanotechnology.
He shows here how complex and unlikely atheistic abiogenesis is, due to its extreme complexity.
He also goes much more in depth with a 13 episode series on abiogenesis. Here: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLILWudw_84t2THBvJZFyuLA0qvxwrIBDr
“One way to learn the mind of the Creator is to study His creation. We must pay God the compliment of studying His work of art and this should apply to all realms of human thought. A refusal to use our intelligence honestly is an act of contempt for Him who gave us that intelligence.”
— Physicist Ernest Walton, who won the Nobel Prize in Physics for his experiments done at Cambridge University, and so became the first person in history to artificially split the atom.
“I believe that the more thoroughly science is studied, the further does it take us from anything comparable to atheism.”
And
“If you study science deep enough and long enough, it will force you to believe in God.”
—William Kelvin, who was noted for his theoretical work on thermodynamics, the concept of absolute zero and the Kelvin temperature scale based upon it.
“God created everything by number, weight and measure.”
—Sir Isaac Newton,
“I have concluded that we are in a world made by rules created by an intelligence. Believe me, everything that we call chance today won’t make sense anymore. To me it is clear that we exist in a plan which is governed by rules that were created, shaped by a universal intelligence and not by chance.”
–Michio Kaku, theoretical physicist and string theory pioneer.
and I could go on.....
So unless you've read some of the scientific views behind belief in God I would say you're really not being an impartial juror.
These men all saw "proof" very clearly in the science they studied. They saw proof. Have you looked at the evidence they looked at?
Mind you, I'm not at all saying that each one of those men are believers in the God of the Bible (but most were).
But I'm saying they were/are not atheists... and that was based upon the science they observed in their respective fields.
To them, there was clear proof atheism was not an option based upon science.
Christianity is in perfect harmony with Science since we believe God created the entire physical universe. Unfortunately, some people confuse opinions from some (not all) Scientists with actual Science.
Perhaps your atheism has not led you to read any of these great scientific minds and their thoughts on God's existence. Let me encourage you to do so because their writings are very well respected.
Allan Sandage (arguably the greatest astronomer of the 20th century), left atheism.
He says, “The [scientific] world is too complicated in all parts and interconnections to be due to chance alone,”
Read more here:
https://thinkingmatters.org.nz/2017/11/allan-sandage/
"You may fly to the ends of the world and find no God but the Author of Salvation."
James Clerk Maxwell, a deeply committed Christian. Also, a Scientist and Mathematician who has influenced all of modern day physics and voted one of the top three physicists of all time.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Clerk_Maxwell
Albert Einstein once said of him, 'I stand not on the shoulders of Newton, but on the shoulders of James Clerk Maxwell.'
Christopher Isham (perhaps Britain's greatest quantum cosmologist), a believer in God's existence.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Isham
Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D also left atheism after seeing the evidence from science.
He was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of human DNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.
He wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
Also... these simple yet powerful quotes from men of science:
“There is no conflict between science and religion. Our knowledge of God is made larger with every discovery we make about the world.”
–Joseph H. Taylor, Jr., who received the 1993 Nobel Prize in Physics for the discovery of the first known binary pulsar.
And this:
"I build molecules for a living. I can't begin to tell you how difficult that job is. I stand in awe of God because of what he has done through his creation. My faith has been increased through my research. Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God."
-Dr. James Tour, Nobel Prize winning chemist. A strong theist and one of the world's leading chemists in the field of nanotechnology.
He shows here how complex and unlikely atheistic abiogenesis is, due to its extreme complexity.
He also goes much more in depth with a 13 episode series on abiogenesis. Here: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLILWudw_84t2THBvJZFyuLA0qvxwrIBDr
“One way to learn the mind of the Creator is to study His creation. We must pay God the compliment of studying His work of art and this should apply to all realms of human thought. A refusal to use our intelligence honestly is an act of contempt for Him who gave us that intelligence.”
— Physicist Ernest Walton, who won the Nobel Prize in Physics for his experiments done at Cambridge University, and so became the first person in history to artificially split the atom.
“I believe that the more thoroughly science is studied, the further does it take us from anything comparable to atheism.”
And
“If you study science deep enough and long enough, it will force you to believe in God.”
—Lord William Kelvin, who was noted for his theoretical work on thermodynamics, the concept of absolute zero and the Kelvin temperature scale based upon it.
“God created everything by number, weight and measure.”
—Sir Isaac Newton,
“I have concluded that we are in a world made by rules created by an intelligence. Believe me, everything that we call chance today won’t make sense anymore. To me it is clear that we exist in a plan which is governed by rules that were created, shaped by a universal intelligence and not by chance.”
–Michio Kaku, theoretical physicist and string theory pioneer.
and I could go on.....
So unless you've read some of the scientific views behind belief in God I would say you're really not being an impartial juror.
These men all saw "proof" very clearly in the science they studied. They saw proof. Have you looked at the evidence they looked at?
Mind you, I'm not at all saying that each one of those men are believers in the God of the Bible.
But I'm saying they were/are not atheists... and that was based upon the science they observed in their respective fields.
To them, there was clear proof atheism was not an option.
>my unwillingness to accept your unfounded "god" claim is a false belief?
Correct.
This is how we know God exists.
There are in theory two main explanations on the table for the universe's existing, life existing, etc.
1) completely natural causes 2) Theism/God
If one choice can be shown to be so mathematically improbable, so as to be functionally nil, then logically the remaining theory must be correct.
This would not be an appeal to ignorance, but rather deductive reasoning.
And this is exactly why many people in the science field understand that God does exist. They looked at the mathematical probability of the first one (only nature doing this all) and say it's virtually nil.
Therefore, the other possibility is true by virtue of deductive reasoning.
Logic tells me this....
Software is engineered.
Things that are engineered have a mind that designed it.
Things that are engineered are a product of thought. I have no idea who was on the team that programmed my OS. But I am 100% sure there was a thinking mind(s) behind my OS.
So too, DNA is a chemical OS. Random chance does not write software. A thinking mind writes complex code.
This is the first evidence that we were Created, Designed, from a Engineer, not a product of chance.
This is the first step in seeing the mind of God. This is proof of God's existence that these great minds understood.
Perhaps your atheism has not led you to read any of these great scientific minds and their thoughts on God's existence. Let me encourage you to do so because their writings are very well respected.
Allan Sandage (arguably the greatest astronomer of the 20th century), left atheism.
He says, “The [scientific] world is too complicated in all parts and interconnections to be due to chance alone,”
Read more here:
https://thinkingmatters.org.nz/2017/11/allan-sandage/
"You may fly to the ends of the world and find no God but the Author of Salvation."
James Clerk Maxwell, a deeply committed Christian. Also, a Scientist and Mathematician who has influenced all of modern day physics and voted one of the top three physicists of all time.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Clerk_Maxwell
Albert Einstein once said of him, 'I stand not on the shoulders of Newton, but on the shoulders of James Clerk Maxwell.'
Christopher Isham (perhaps Britain's greatest quantum cosmologist), a believer in God's existence.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Isham
Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D also left atheism after seeing the evidence from science.
He was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of human DNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.
He wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
Also... these simple yet powerful quotes from men of science:
“There is no conflict between science and religion. Our knowledge of God is made larger with every discovery we make about the world.”
–Joseph H. Taylor, Jr., who received the 1993 Nobel Prize in Physics for the discovery of the first known binary pulsar.
And this:
"I build molecules for a living. I can't begin to tell you how difficult that job is. I stand in awe of God because of what he has done through his creation. My faith has been increased through my research. Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God."
-Dr. James Tour, Nobel Prize winning chemist. A strong theist and one of the world's leading chemists in the field of nanotechnology.
He shows here how complex and unlikely atheistic abiogenesis is, due to its extreme complexity.
He also goes much more in depth with a 13 episode series on abiogenesis. Here: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLILWudw_84t2THBvJZFyuLA0qvxwrIBDr
“One way to learn the mind of the Creator is to study His creation. We must pay God the compliment of studying His work of art and this should apply to all realms of human thought. A refusal to use our intelligence honestly is an act of contempt for Him who gave us that intelligence.”
— Physicist Ernest Walton, who won the Nobel Prize in Physics for his experiments done at Cambridge University, and so became the first person in history to artificially split the atom.
“I believe that the more thoroughly science is studied, the further does it take us from anything comparable to atheism.”
And
“If you study science deep enough and long enough, it will force you to believe in God.”
—Lord William Kelvin, who was noted for his theoretical work on thermodynamics, the concept of absolute zero and the Kelvin temperature scale based upon it.
“God created everything by number, weight and measure.”
—Sir Isaac Newton,
“I have concluded that we are in a world made by rules created by an intelligence. Believe me, everything that we call chance today won’t make sense anymore. To me it is clear that we exist in a plan which is governed by rules that were created, shaped by a universal intelligence and not by chance.”
–Michio Kaku, theoretical physicist and string theory pioneer.
and I could go on.....
So unless you've read some of the scientific views behind belief in God I would say you're really not being an impartial juror.
These men all saw "proof" very clearly in the science they studied. They saw proof. Have you looked at the evidence they looked at?
Mind you, I'm not at all saying that each one of those men are believers in the God of the Bible.
But I'm saying they were/are not atheists... and that was based upon the science they observed in their respective fields.
To them, there was clear proof atheism was not an option.
>So on what basis do you then distinguish DNA as being information
It provides instructions on how to build life.
Those working in the field certainly call it a code/information.
"In the genetic "code", each three nucleotides in a row count as a triplet and code for a single amino acid..."
https://www.genome.gov/genetics-glossary/Genetic-Code
And here too.
"The Digital Code of DNA."
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature01410
It is indeed a code.
So I now ask, please give me any complex code that was written without an engineering mind behind it.
>We simply do not have any clear information on the existence of such a God.
I disagree...
This is how we know God exists.
There are in theory two main explanations on the table for the universe's existing, life existing, etc.
1) completely natural causes 2) Theism/God
If one choice can be shown to be so mathematically improbable, so as to be functionally nil, then logically the remaining theory must be correct.
This would not be an appeal to ignorance, but rather deductive reasoning.
And this is exactly why many people in the science field understand that God does exist. They looked at the mathematical probability of the first one (only nature doing this all) and say it's virtually nil.
Therefore, the other possibility is true by virtue of deductive reasoning.
Logic tells me this....
Software is engineered.
Things that are engineered have a mind that designed it.
Things that are engineered are a product of thought. I have no idea who was on the team that programmed my OS. But I am 100% sure there was a thinking mind(s) behind my OS.
So too, DNAis a chemical OS. Random chance does not write software. A thinking mind writes complex code.
This is the first evidence that we were Created, Designed, from a Engineer, not a product of chance.
This is the first step in seeing the mind of God. This is proof of God's existence that these great minds understood.
Read any of these great scientific minds and their thoughts on God's existence. Let me encourage you to do so because their writings are very well respected.
Allan Sandage (arguably the greatest astronomer of the 20th century), left atheism.
He says, “The [scientific] world is too complicated in all parts and interconnections to be due to chance alone,”
Read more here:
https://thinkingmatters.org.nz/2017/11/allan-sandage/
"You may fly to the ends of the world and find no God but the Author of Salvation."
James Clerk Maxwell, a deeply committed Christian. Also, a Scientist and Mathematician who has influenced all of modern day physics and voted one of the top three physicists of all time.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Clerk_Maxwell
Albert Einstein once said of him, 'I stand not on the shoulders of Newton, but on the shoulders of James Clerk Maxwell.'
Christopher Isham (perhaps Britain's greatest quantum cosmologist), a believer in God's existence.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Isham
Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D also left atheism after seeing the evidence from science.
He was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of humanDNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.
He wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
Also... these simple yet powerful quotes from men of science:
“There is no conflict between science and religion. Our knowledge of God is made larger with every discovery we make about the world.”
–Joseph H. Taylor, Jr., who received the 1993 Nobel Prize in Physics for the discovery of the first known binary pulsar.
And this:
"I build molecules for a living. I can't begin to tell you how difficult that job is. I stand in awe of God because of what he has done through his creation. My faith has been increased through my research. Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God."
-Dr. James Tour, Nobel Prize winning chemist. A strong theist and one of the world's leading chemists in the field of nanotechnology.
He shows here how complex and unlikely atheistic abiogenesis is, due to its extreme complexity.
He also goes much more in depth with a 13 episode series on abiogenesis. Here: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLILWudw_84t2THBvJZFyuLA0qvxwrIBDr
“One way to learn the mind of the Creator is to study His creation. We must pay God the compliment of studying His work of art and this should apply to all realms of human thought. A refusal to use our intelligence honestly is an act of contempt for Him who gave us that intelligence.”
— Physicist Ernest Walton, who won the Nobel Prize in Physics for his experiments done at Cambridge University, and so became the first person in history to artificially split the atom.
“I believe that the more thoroughly science is studied, the further does it take us from anything comparable to atheism.”
And
“If you study science deep enough and long enough, it will force you to believe in God.”
—William Kelvin, who was noted for his theoretical work on thermodynamics, the concept of absolute zero and the Kelvin temperature scale based upon it.
“God created everything by number, weight and measure.”
—Sir Isaac Newton,
“I have concluded that we are in a world made by rules created by an intelligence. Believe me, everything that we call chance today won’t make sense anymore. To me it is clear that we exist in a plan which is governed by rules that were created, shaped by a universal intelligence and not by chance.”
–Michio Kaku, theoretical physicist and string theory pioneer.
and I could go on.....
So unless you've read some of the scientific views behind belief in God I would say you're really not being an impartial juror.
These men all saw "proof" very clearly in the science they studied. They saw proof. Have you looked at the evidence they looked at?
Mind you, I'm not at all saying that each one of those men are believers in the God of the Bible.
But I'm saying they were/are not atheists... and that was based upon the science they observed in their respective fields.
To them, there was clear proof atheism was not an option.
>Why should I waste this time, during the one like I know I have, doing research given by someone
You asked for proof. I sent you a 500 page pdf. Then you reply why should I waste time reading this?
It seems, I'm the one wasting time because you not even open to the "proof" you ask for.
>That’s cool that one guy who has worked within our current understanding of molecular biology can’t comprehend how it could naturally occur,
A) it is not simply "one guy" like a random man walking down the street. He has an unbelievably long list of scientific awards and is considered one of the top chemists on the planet. B) And he is not saying he can't comprehend how it is done and scratching his head. Rather, he is saying from a chemical perspective, these things do not occur naturally (required for life) and are in fact against nature.
>Again you can’t actually calculate what that chance is.
But that is not what those scientists who study cosmology are saying. They do understand the math behind it and that is precisely why it is a problem.
"The fine-tuning problem is also treated with great seriousness among contemporary cosmologists, including those committed to naturalism"
>one guy
I simply did not have space to list more.
Perhaps your atheism has not led you to read any of these great scientific minds and their thoughts on God's existence. Let me encourage you to do so because their writings are very well respected.
Allan Sandage (arguably the greatest astronomer of the 20th century), left atheism.
He says, “The [scientific] world is too complicated in all parts and interconnections to be due to chance alone,”
Read more here:
https://thinkingmatters.org.nz/2017/11/allan-sandage/
"You may fly to the ends of the world and find no God but the Author of Salvation."
James Clerk Maxwell, voted one of the top three physicists of all time.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Clerk_Maxwell
Albert Einstein once said of him, 'I stand not on the shoulders of Newton, but on the shoulders of James Clerk Maxwell.'
Christopher Isham (perhaps Britain's greatest quantum cosmologist), a believer in God's existence based upon the science he sees.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Isham
Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D also left atheism after seeing the evidence from science.
He wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
Also... these simple yet powerful quotes from men of science:
“There is no conflict between science and religion. Our knowledge of God is made larger with every discovery we make about the world.”
–Joseph H. Taylor, Jr., who received the 1993 Nobel Prize in Physics for the discovery of the first known binary pulsar.
“One way to learn the mind of the Creator is to study His creation. We must pay God the compliment of studying His work of art and this should apply to all realms of human thought. A refusal to use our intelligence honestly is an act of contempt for Him who gave us that intelligence.”
— Physicist Ernest Walton, who won the Nobel Prize in Physics for his experiments done at Cambridge University, and so became the first person in history to artificially split the atom.
“I believe that the more thoroughly science is studied, the further does it take us from anything comparable to atheism.”
And
“If you study science deep enough and long enough, it will force you to believe in God.”
—William Kelvin, who was noted for his theoretical work on thermodynamics, the concept of absolute zero and the Kelvin temperature scale based upon it.
“I have concluded that we are in a world made by rules created by an intelligence. Believe me, everything that we call chance today won’t make sense anymore. To me it is clear that we exist in a plan which is governed by rules that were created, shaped by a universal intelligence and not by chance.”
–Michio Kaku, theoretical physicist and string theory pioneer.
and I could go on.....
So unless you've read some of the scientific views behind belief in God (too long to list here) I would say you're really not being an impartial juror. I simply don't have the space here to list why each man came to their conclusion. But they obviously saw clear evidence in their respective fields.
These men all saw "proof" very clearly in the science they studied. They saw proof.
Mind you, I'm not at all saying that each one of those men are believers in the God of the Bible. (though most all were)
But I'm saying they were/are not atheists... and that was based upon the science they observed in their respective fields.
To them, there was clear proof atheism was not an option.
>There is no double standard, these cases are apples and begging-the-question-oranges.
I respectfully disagree. It is indeed apples to apples.
Imagine if you and I were shipwrecked. We are walking on an island that we assumed was deserted. Then all of a sudden in the sand we look down and see these words written inside of a big heart "John loves Mary."
I exclaim, "someone's here!" The Atheist response is "no, the wind and the waves made this by time and chance."
To see how bizarre that statement would be. Why? Because that message in the sand is conveying information to us. And information only comes from a thought process.
The SETI project understands this. It is exactly apples to apples.
Why? DNA is information. It proves the existence of a thinking, engineering mind behind it.
Look what Bill Gates the founder of Microsoft once said, "Human DNA is like a computer program but far, far more advanced than any software ever created."
As a matter of fact DNA is so complex it's over three billion characters long. All those letters, must be in the right order for you and me to survive in good health.
How did they get in that order? Not by natural forces. Why? Because minds write messages in code. Untamed natural forces do not write intelligent code.
>the only rational answer here is we don’t know.
No, that is emotional answer. There is another rational answer that the evidence points to and many in science see it clearly. We were Designed.
For those who do not even consider that option, it is not based on reason, but emotion.
Ok, there is much more written on all this, but space limits me.
Several things.
1) Are you familiar with the current scientific work of the SETI project? This is a respected scientific community looking out into the universe, via powerful radio telescopes, for signs of design produced by extra terrestrial beings.
Yet, upon receiving such a complex radio signal from space that was clearly designed, SETI researchers will claim it as proof that intelligent life resides in the neighborhood of a distant star. The science community would proclaim we have found evidence of alien life. An Engineering mind is out there because this was not produced by random chance. It is too complex and not naturally occurring.** This is the entire basis of the SETI project. This is what they are looking for.
Thus, isn't their search completely analogous to Intelligent Design's own line of reasoning--a clear case of complexity implying intelligence and deliberate design?
To deny this is to impy there is a double standard.
And that double standard would be based solely upon emotion, not logic. "We scientists get to look for intelligent design to look for extraterrestrial life. But theists cannot use this same standard to proclaim God exists."
Intelligent Design proponents claim the same thing as SETI. DNA, cellular structure, life itself screams at us, we are complex. We were Designed by an Engineering mind.
Again, I restate, to deny this would be a double standard based solely on emotion, not science.
2) The argument for design is "Which is more probable". Chance or design.
And a number of great scientific minds see that chance alone designing life is extremely improbable.
For instance, Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D also left atheism after seeing the evidence from science.
He was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of human DNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.
He wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
And this:
"I build molecules for a living. I can't begin to tell you how difficult that job is. I stand in awe of God because of what he has done through his creation. My faith has been increased through my research. Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God."
-Dr. James Tour, voted one of the top 10 chemists in the world. A strong theist and one of the world's leading chemists in the field of nanotechnology.
He shows here how complex and unlikely atheistic abiogenesis is, due to its extreme complexity.
He also goes much more in depth with a 13 episode series on abiogenesis. Here: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLILWudw_84t2THBvJZFyuLA0qvxwrIBDr
3) Finally, most arguments against fine tuning/design fail to take into account this one word: variables.
Going back to basic high school probability formulas, most don't deal with this basic issue: the more variables you have, the lower the probability of an event occurring.
For instance, one variable (say an all heads coin flip) would line up pretty easily. It would eventually happen as needed.
But add a second coin (a second variable) to get all heads. Now you need to multiply the probability results by each other (.5 x .5 =.25) to get a desired result. So the second variable just decreased the probability of an all heads event. A third variable? A fourth? Exponentially decreases the probability to even less. This is exactly how Las Vegas works. They understand probability perfectly. People may win in the short term, but in the long term (many variables required to all line up) their probability of all those winning hands time and time again decreases. The house eventually wins. What you need to "win" eventually does not happen. It breaks down.
Now back to the problem of variables. The many constants (think variables) that need to be set to specific values to facilitate the development of human life:
*the gravitational constant, *the coulomb constant, *the cosmological constant, *the habitable zone of our sun *and many more.
If these constants were changed even the smallest amount, (down to dozens of zeros after the decimal point) - life as we know it wouldn't exist.
We are living in a fine tuned universe, science understands this.
"The fine-tuning problem is also treated with great seriousness among contemporary cosmologists, including those committed to naturalism"
So when we look at the universe and the planet, it is apparent the world seems to support us perfectly, and that seems really unlikely to happen by chance due to the mathematical need to multiply variables to determine probability.
For instance, the cosmological constant on its own is just 1:10^120 which I'm pretty sure its the most finely tuned constant out of the rest. 1:10^120 is basically a statistical impossibility on its own. Now we got to take into account all the other events required just to even start life... and how unlikely those are combined together.
So hypothetically could it have all just been by chance? Yes. But is it the type of chance to take? Absolutely not.
If someone said I have a 1:10^120 chance to survive I'd start writing my will and preparing for my own funeral.
If someone in a poker game draws a royal flush three times in a row (one is 0.000154%) would you conclude they were lucky or would you conclude they are cheating? The reasonable thing to do is conclude they are cheating which is what the argument is trying to demonstrate.
So how many variables are required to line up to have life the way we have it now. Literally millions.
From the fine tuning of the universe, to abiogenesis, to unbelievably complex biological systems. These all required millions of variables to line up just right.
And considering all the variables required to get to human life today. Could chance have done it? Sure. But the real question is which is more probable chance or design.*
For the theist, it is absolutely astronomically impossible for random chance to have done it. There was obviously a thought process behind it. Intelligent design. Engineering it.
With the possibility of life being so improbable we come to the conclusion that there must have been an intelligent mind engineering it. It could not have happened by chance. This is the first step in realizing we are not alone.
We were engineered by a fantastic mind. God.
Hope this helps.
>You really should educate yourself before making such ignorant comments
Actually, it is the other way around.
I sincerely believe your atheism is a knee-jerk reaction and not well thought out. Why do I say that? Bc of these great minds below and their thoughts. Their thoughts are logical and well reasoned when you go deeper into their line of reasoning.
It seems your atheism has not led you to read any of these great scientific minds and their thoughts on God's existence. Let me encourage you to do so because their writings are very well respected.
Allan Sandage (arguably the greatest astronomer of the 20th century), left atheism.
He says, “The [scientific] world is too complicated in all parts and interconnections to be due to chance alone,”
Read more here:
https://thinkingmatters.org.nz/2017/11/allan-sandage/
Christopher Isham (perhaps Britain's greatest quantum cosmologist), a believer in God's existence.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Isham
Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D also left atheism after seeing the evidence from science.
He was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of human DNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.
He wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
And this:
"I build molecules for a living. I can't begin to tell you how difficult that job is. I stand in awe of God because of what he has done through his creation. My faith has been increased through my research. Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God."
-Dr. James Tour, voted one of the top 10 chemists in the world. A strong theist and one of the world's leading chemists in the field of nanotechnology.
He shows here how complex and unlikely atheistic abiogenesis is, due to its extreme complexity.
He also goes much more in depth with a 13 episode series on abiogenesis. Here: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLILWudw_84t2THBvJZFyuLA0qvxwrIBDr
“One way to learn the mind of the Creator is to study His creation. We must pay God the compliment of studying His work of art and this should apply to all realms of human thought. A refusal to use our intelligence honestly is an act of contempt for Him who gave us that intelligence.”
— Physicist Ernest Walton, who won the Nobel Prize in Physics for his experiments done at Cambridge University, and so became the first person in history to artificially split the atom.
“I believe that the more thoroughly science is studied, the further does it take us from anything comparable to atheism.”
And
“If you study science deep enough and long enough, it will force you to believe in God.”
—William Kelvin, who was noted for his theoretical work on thermodynamics, the concept of absolute zero and the Kelvin temperature scale based upon it.
“I have concluded that we are in a world made by rules created by an intelligence. Believe me, everything that we call chance today won’t make sense anymore. To me it is clear that we exist in a plan which is governed by rules that were created, shaped by a universal intelligence and not by chance.”
–Michio Kaku, theoretical physicist and string theory pioneer.
and I could go on.....
So unless you've read some of the scientific views behind belief in God I would say you're really not being an impartial juror.
These men all saw "proof" very clearly in the science they studied. They saw proof. Have you looked at the evidence they looked at?
Mind you, I'm not at all saying that each one of those men are believers in the God of the Bible.
But I'm saying they were/are not atheists... and that was based upon the science they observed in their respective fields.
To them, there was clear proof atheism was not an option.
>Prove that the universe is fine tuned for life
Again, your reply shows me that you have not looked into this at all. He is just one example of proof that what I said was/is a real issue.
"The fine-tuning problem is also treated with great seriousness among contemporary cosmologists, including those committed to naturalism"
From a logical point of view we have this.
The mathematical probability of Life forming by chance. It's not possible from a logical point of view.
For instance I can look at any building and tell you that there was an architect behind it. I may not know who the architect was, but I am 100% sure that every building had somebody designing it before they built it. That random chance could not have made any building. That's logical to me.
The same thing is true with a single cell. Or the human body. It's so utterly complex.... and complex, functional things are required to have a designing mind behind them. Chaos does not produce order.
It's like this, if I was walking along a beach on a deserted island in the ocean, and I thought no one was on the island. And I walked along and then on the sand I suddenly see somebody wrote , John loves Sally, inside a big heart in the sand.
I can assume one of two things. Either that theocean waves did that by chance, or I am not alone on the island , there is a thinking mind that wrote that.
For me, logic clearly dictates the second one.
There had to be a thinking mind that wrote that. So we take that same principle and apply it to life or specifically DNA. DNA is much more complex than John loves Sally. It'sa software code that tells the human body what to do. Infinitely more complex than computer software. And software is always written by a thinking Mind. By teams of Engineers.
The Apple or Windows operating systems were written by teams of Engineers. And yet they're child's play compared to how complex the human body and DNA is. So for me that's conclusive evidence that there was a thinking mind behind it all.
And that is what those great scientific minds realized in their studies. This incredible order was the result of a mind, thought.
And that's the mere starting point for showing God existing.
Great scientists in the past have all seen that design does not happen by chance.
So you don't get the luxury of just dismissing it out of hand as a "wordplay" argument. Because it is absolutely completely not.
If you say it is nonsense, then you actually have not looked into this.
“I have concluded that we are in a world made by rules created by an intelligence. Believe me, everything that we call chance today won’t make sense anymore. To me it is clear that we exist in a plan which is governed by rules that were created, shaped by a universal intelligence and not by chance.”
–Michio Kaku, theoretical physicist and string theory pioneer.
Again, I cannot list all the mathematical formulas here to show the utter complexity of life, but if these great minds say it could not happen by chance, it's something to think about.
Are you interested in the links to all these proofs?
Wishing you the best.
There is obviously way too much here to respond to. There are excellent books already written on each of those subjects.
But let me address a few here briefly:
Yes, from my perspective there is abundant evidence.
1) Creation/Life is evidence. For life itself is extremely complex. Way too much complexity to list here. And truth tells me that complex things have a thought process behind them. An engineer. I can look at a sand castle on the beach sitting there alone and I can be sure there was an thinking mind behind it. Even if I don't see them, I can be sure they exist. Same thing with software. I don't know anyone who wrote the latest os on my phone, but I am absolutely sure there was a team of engineering minds who wrote it. Design means an engineering mind was behind it.
Look at Dr. Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D also left atheism after seeing the evidence from science.
He was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of human DNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.
He wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
And many more quotes like this:
“I believe that the more thoroughly science is studied, the further does it take us from anything comparable to atheism.”
And
“If you study science deep enough and long enough, it will force you to believe in God.”
—Lord William Kelvin, who was noted for his theoretical work on thermodynamics, the concept of absolute zero and the Kelvin temperature scale based upon it.
2) Predictive prophecy. God told my people (I am Jewish) what to look for in the Messiah. -He would be from the lineage of King David -He would be from Bethlehem -He would arrive before the Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed. (Temple destroyed by Rome in 70AD) -That the Messiah would die as a substitute for our sins. As a payment for our sins. -He would be rejected by His own people.
The list of prophecies about a coming Messiah goes on and on and on.
This is what separates Christianity from every single other religion in the world.
These prophecies go back way before Jesus Christ. The Dead Sea scrolls are proof of that.
3) Archeology. The Bible is historical and I disagree with some of your statements (too long to list refutations here.) Now that is not the same as to say it is automatically true, but it shows and disavows the claim of some that it is equal to something like Harry Potter. I have been to Israel several times and am fascinated by the biblical historical items that archeology has shown to be accurate. The museum in Israel is full of these items.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_artifacts_in_biblical_archaeology
4) Changed lives. If God were real, one would expect him to intervene in people's lives, to change them, when they ask him. I have found this to be the case by hearing hundreds of testimonies of changed lives over 30 years. So many lives have been touched by Jesus Christ. Here is one man, Lee Stroble, who went to Yale University Law school. Was a commited atheist, yet after being challenged and researching Christianity, accepted Christ and it changed the trajectory of his entire life.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Strobel
Also, someone like Dr. James Tour. Dr. Tour was ranked one of the top 10 chemists in the world over the past decade by Thomson Reuters. He has a long list of scientific achievements. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Tour
Has excellent videos online showing the scientific reasons for the virtual impossibility of abiogenesis. 13 video course by a multi award-winning chemist on the complexity of abiogenesis. His life as well, completely changed after coming to faith in Jesus Christ.
So many countless lives changed by knowing Jesus Christ.
5) My personal relationship with Jesus Christ vs. what I has growing up. I did not grow up in a Christian home. After graduating from college, I came to Faith in Jesus Christ and my Jewish Family kicked me out of my home because of it. For me this was not religion, but in actual relationship with God that I never had before. There was no denying his reality in my life.
So this post is too long already. There are more points that I could keep adding to this list, but I will stop here.
However, each of these points above can be expanded upon for more information by others online, who say the same things as I. Google has this ability.
Let me close with this. I have found that most atheists really do not understand the gospel message. (A few do, but most do not.)
Many will say that "You believe heaven is a reward for good people."
Once they say that I am 100% sure they do not understand what they are dismissing.
Heaven is not a reward for good people.
Heaven is a free gift to those who really turn from their sins, (repentance) and ask deeply for forgiveness, and accept Jesus Christ into their heart. Those who are born again.
It is like Jesus is the rescue boat to us on the Titanic called Earth. You dont get on the rescue boat by being a good person. You get on the boat because you wave your arms in the water and shout "Save me!" And the boat comes over. Jesus is the rescue boat.
Some atheists have been to church growing up, but again religion is not the same thing as knowing Jesus Christ. It is not getting into the boat.
I personally do not like religion and think it has been the cause of many problems in the world. But religion and knowing Jesus Christ are about as different as reading a book about swimming versus jumping in the ocean.
There is not an iota of doubt in my mind that God exists.
Hope this helps.
Let me encourage you to read an excellent book called "Stealing from God - why atheists need God to make their case." Dr. Frank Turek looks at the reasonings of Dawkins, Harris, etc and shows how their reasoning is faulty. Really excellent book.
In the meantime, I would suggest the following videos for an overview :
Dr. Frank Turek "I don't have enough faith to be an atheist" : https://youtu.be/ybjG3tdArE0
Also this.
Dr. William Lane Craig lovingly demolishes atheism.
Also about science, to me science proves God exists, not the other way around. For instance:
Allan Sandage (arguably the greatest astronomer of the 20th century), left atheism.
He says, “The [scientific] world is too complicated in all parts and interconnections to be due to chance alone,”
"You may fly to the ends of the world and find no God but the Author of Salvation."
James Clerk Maxwell, a deeply committed Christian. Also, a Scientist and Mathematician who has influenced all of modern day physics and voted one of the top three physicists of all time.
Albert Einstein once said of him, 'I stand not on the shoulders of Newton, but on the shoulders of James Clerk Maxwell.'
Christopher Isham (perhaps Britain's greatest quantum cosmologist), a believer in God's existence.
Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D also left atheism after seeing the evidence from science.
He was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of human DNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.
He wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
Also... these simple yet powerful quotes from men of science:
“There is no conflict between science and religion. Our knowledge of God is made larger with every discovery we make about the world.”
–Joseph H. Taylor, Jr., who received the 1993 Nobel Prize in Physics for the discovery of the first known binary pulsar.
And this:
"I build molecules for a living. I can't begin to tell you how difficult that job is. I stand in awe of God because of what he has done through his creation. My faith has been increased through my research. Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God."
-Dr. James Tour, Nobel Prize winning chemist. A strong theist and one of the world's leading chemists in the field of nanotechnology.
He shows here how complex and unlikely atheistic abiogenesis is, due to its extreme complexity.
He also goes much more in depth with a 13 episode series on abiogenesis. Here: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLILWudw_84t2THBvJZFyuLA0qvxwrIBDr
“One way to learn the mind of the Creator is to study His creation. We must pay God the compliment of studying His work of art and this should apply to all realms of human thought. A refusal to use our intelligence honestly is an act of contempt for Him who gave us that intelligence.”
— Physicist Ernest Walton, who won the Nobel Prize in Physics for his experiments done at Cambridge University, and so became the first person in history to artificially split the atom.
“I believe that the more thoroughly science is studied, the further does it take us from anything comparable to atheism.”
And
“If you study science deep enough and long enough, it will force you to believe in God.”
—Lord William Kelvin, who was noted for his theoretical work on thermodynamics, the concept of absolute zero and the Kelvin temperature scale based upon it.
“God created everything by number, weight and measure.”
—Sir Isaac Newton,
and I could go on.....
These men all saw "proof" very clearly in the science they studied.
To them, there was clear proof in science that atheism was not an option.
And finally, I am Jewish and became a believer in Jesus Christ based upon predictive prophecy.
Here's what separates Christianity from the rest of the world religions. The fulfilled prophecies. The Bible told us what to look for in the Messiah centuries before it happened.
Isaiah 53 tells us the Messiah will be rejected by his own people. Daniel chapter 9 tells us the Messiah would arrive before the Temple was destroyed in Jerusalem. Micah chapter 5 tells us the Messiah would originate from Bethlehem. And on and on and on. The vast majority of people do not even know about these prophecies. But that is why we can be sure that Jesus Christ is the Messiah.
Jesus fulfill the prophecies. And those prophecies were separated by hundreds of years before Jesus came.
Islam, nor any other world religion, has anything like that.
Because God knows the future and he tells it to us. Only the Judeo-Christian faith has that.
Sorry this is so long, but I hope each section helps.
Let me use this illustration. Imagine there are two dogs and a cat locked in a house. You leave for one hour. When you return, the cat is found dead with bite wounds in the bedroom. You view the livingroom video camera tape and see that the black dog has been sleeping in the livingroom literally the whole time you were gone.
The white dog was not there in the video most of the time. Conclusion? The white dog murdered the cat - for sure.
How can I be sure of that when I didn't see him do it? By eliminating the only other possibility.
That is how we know God exists.
There are in theory two main explanations on the table for the universe's existing, life existing, etc.
1) completely natural causes 2) Theism/God
If one choice can be shown to be so mathematically improbable, so as to be functionally nil, then logically the remaining theory must be correct.
This would not be an appeal to ignorance, but rather deductive reasoning.
And this is exactly why many people in the science field understand that God does exist. They looked at the mathematical probability of the first one (only nature doing this all) and say it's virtually nil.
Therefore, the other possibility is true by virtue of deductive reasoning.
Logic tells me this....
Software is engineered.
Things that are engineered have a mind that designed it.
Things that are engineered are a product of thought. I have no idea who was on the team that programmed my OS. But I am 100% sure there was a thinking mind(s) behind my OS.
So too, DNA is a chemical OS. Random chance does not write software. A thinking mind writes complex code.
This is the first evidence that we were Created, Designed, from a Engineer, not a product of chance.
This is the first step in seeing the mind of God. This is proof of God's existence that these great minds understood.
Perhaps your atheism has not led you to read any of these great scientific minds and their thoughts on God's existence. Let me encourage you to do so because their writings are very well respected.
Allan Sandage (arguably the greatest astronomer of the 20th century), left atheism.
He says, “The [scientific] world is too complicated in all parts and interconnections to be due to chance alone,”
Read more here:
https://thinkingmatters.org.nz/2017/11/allan-sandage/
"You may fly to the ends of the world and find no God but the Author of Salvation."
James Clerk Maxwell, a deeply committed Christian. Also, a Scientist and Mathematician who has influenced all of modern day physics and voted one of the top three physicists of all time.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Clerk_Maxwell
Albert Einstein once said of him, 'I stand not on the shoulders of Newton, but on the shoulders of James Clerk Maxwell.'
Christopher Isham (perhaps Britain's greatest quantum cosmologist), a believer in God's existence.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Isham
Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D also left atheism after seeing the evidence from science.
He was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of human DNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.
He wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
Also... these simple yet powerful quotes from men of science:
“There is no conflict between science and religion. Our knowledge of God is made larger with every discovery we make about the world.”
–Joseph H. Taylor, Jr., who received the 1993 Nobel Prize in Physics for the discovery of the first known binary pulsar.
And this:
"I build molecules for a living. I can't begin to tell you how difficult that job is. I stand in awe of God because of what he has done through his creation. My faith has been increased through my research. Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God."
-Dr. James Tour, Nobel Prize winning chemist. A strong theist and one of the world's leading chemists in the field of nanotechnology.
He shows here how complex and unlikely atheistic abiogenesis is, due to its extreme complexity.
He also goes much more in depth with a 13 episode series on abiogenesis. Here: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLILWudw_84t2THBvJZFyuLA0qvxwrIBDr
“One way to learn the mind of the Creator is to study His creation. We must pay God the compliment of studying His work of art and this should apply to all realms of human thought. A refusal to use our intelligence honestly is an act of contempt for Him who gave us that intelligence.”
— Physicist Ernest Walton, who won the Nobel Prize in Physics for his experiments done at Cambridge University, and so became the first person in history to artificially split the atom.
“I believe that the more thoroughly science is studied, the further does it take us from anything comparable to atheism.”
And
“If you study science deep enough and long enough, it will force you to believe in God.”
—Lord William Kelvin, who was noted for his theoretical work on thermodynamics, the concept of absolute zero and the Kelvin temperature scale based upon it.
“God created everything by number, weight and measure.”
—Sir Isaac Newton,
“I have concluded that we are in a world made by rules created by an intelligence. Believe me, everything that we call chance today won’t make sense anymore. To me it is clear that we exist in a plan which is governed by rules that were created, shaped by a universal intelligence and not by chance.”
–Michio Kaku, theoretical physicist and string theory pioneer.
and I could go on.....
So unless you've read some of the scientific views behind belief in God I would say you're really not being an impartial juror.
These men all saw "proof" very clearly in the science they studied. They saw proof. Have you looked at the evidence they looked at?
Mind you, I'm not at all saying that each one of those men are believers in the God of the Bible.
But I'm saying they were/are not atheists... and that was based upon the science they observed in their respective fields.
To them, there was clear proof atheism was not an option.
>I don’t think it is wrong to want more evidence/reason to believe a God exists.
Correct. But have you looked in the right places for evidence?
Perhaps your atheism has not led you to read any of these great scientific minds and their thoughts on God's existence. Let me encourage you to do so because their writings are very well respected.
Allan Sandage (arguably the greatest astronomer of the 20th century), left atheism.
He says, “The [scientific] world is too complicated in all parts and interconnections to be due to chance alone,”
Read more here:
https://thinkingmatters.org.nz/2017/11/allan-sandage/
"You may fly to the ends of the world and find no God but the Author of Salvation."
James Clerk Maxwell, a deeply committed Christian. Also, a Scientist and Mathematician who has influenced all of modern day physics and voted one of the top three physicists of all time.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Clerk_Maxwell
Albert Einstein once said of him, 'I stand not on the shoulders of Newton, but on the shoulders of James Clerk Maxwell.'
Christopher Isham (perhaps Britain's greatest quantum cosmologist), a believer in God's existence.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Isham
Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D also left atheism after seeing the evidence from science.
He was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of human DNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.
He wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
Also... these simple yet powerful quotes from men of science:
“There is no conflict between science and religion. Our knowledge of God is made larger with every discovery we make about the world.”
–Joseph H. Taylor, Jr., who received the 1993 Nobel Prize in Physics for the discovery of the first known binary pulsar.
"I build molecules for a living. I can't begin to tell you how difficult that job is. I stand in awe of God because of what he has done through his creation. My faith has been increased through my research. Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God."
-Dr. James Tour, Nobel Prize winning chemist. A strong theist and one of the world's leading chemists in the field of nanotechnology.
He shows here how complex and unlikely atheistic abiogenesis is, due to its extreme complexity.
He also goes much more in depth with a 13 episode series on abiogenesis. Here: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLILWudw_84t2THBvJZFyuLA0qvxwrIBDr
“One way to learn the mind of the Creator is to study His creation. We must pay God the compliment of studying His work of art and this should apply to all realms of human thought. A refusal to use our intelligence honestly is an act of contempt for Him who gave us that intelligence.”
— Physicist Ernest Walton, who won the Nobel Prize in Physics for his experiments done at Cambridge University, and so became the first person in history to artificially split the atom.
“I believe that the more thoroughly science is studied, the further does it take us from anything comparable to atheism.”
And
“If you study science deep enough and long enough, it will force you to believe in God.”
—Lord William Kelvin, who was noted for his theoretical work on thermodynamics, the concept of absolute zero and the Kelvin temperature scale based upon it.
“God created everything by number, weight and measure.”
—Sir Isaac Newton,
“I have concluded that we are in a world made by rules created by an intelligence. Believe me, everything that we call chance today won’t make sense anymore. To me it is clear that we exist in a plan which is governed by rules that were created, shaped by a universal intelligence and not by chance.”
–Michio Kaku, theoretical physicist and string theory pioneer.
and I could go on.....
So unless you've read some of the scientific views behind belief in God I would say you're really not being an impartial juror.
These men all see "proof" very clearly in the science they studied. They understood this principle, Design means a Designer.
Mind you, I'm not at all saying that each one of those men are believers in the God of the Bible.
But I'm saying they were/are not atheists... and that was based upon science they observed in their respective fields.
Perhaps your atheism has not led you to read any of these great scientific minds and their thoughts on God's existence. Let me encourage you to do so because their writings are very well respected.
Allan Sandage (arguably the greatest astronomer of the 20th century), left atheism.
He says, “The [scientific] world is too complicated in all parts and interconnections to be due to chance alone,”
Read more here:
https://thinkingmatters.org.nz/2017/11/allan-sandage/
"You may fly to the ends of the world and find no God but the Author of Salvation."
James Clerk Maxwell, deeply committed Christian. Also, a Scientist and Mathematician who has influenced all of modern day physics and voted one of the top three physicists of all time.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Clerk_Maxwell
Albert Einstein once said, 'I stand not on the shoulders of Newton, but on the shoulders of James Clerk Maxwell.'
Christopher Isham (perhaps Britain's greatest quantum cosmologist), a believer in God's existence.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Isham
Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D also left atheism. Was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of human DNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.
Wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
Also, these simple yet powerful quotes from men of science:
“There is no conflict between science and religion. Our knowledge of God is made larger with every discovery we make about the world.”
–Joseph H. Taylor, Jr., who received the 1993 Nobel Prize in Physics for the discovery of the first known binary pulsar.
“I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know his thoughts; the rest are details.”
–Albert Einstein
“One way to learn the mind of the Creator is to study His creation. We must pay God the compliment of studying His work of art and this should apply to all realms of human thought. A refusal to use our intelligence honestly is an act of contempt for Him who gave us that intelligence.”
— Physicist Ernest Walton, who won the Nobel Prize in Physics for his experiments done at Cambridge University, and so became the first person in history to artificially split the atom.
“I believe that the more thoroughly science is studied, the further does it take us from anything comparable to atheism.”
And
“If you study science deep enough and long enough, it will force you to believe in God.”
—Lord William Kelvin, who was noted for his theoretical work on thermodynamics, the concept of absolute zero and the Kelvin temperature scale based upon it.
“God created everything by number, weight and measure.”
“In the absence of any other proof, the thumb alone would convince me of God’s existence.”
—Sir Isaac Newton,
“I have concluded that we are in a world made by rules created by an intelligence. Believe me, everything that we call chance today won’t make sense anymore. To me it is clear that we exist in a plan which is governed by rules that were created, shaped by a universal intelligence and not by chance.”
–Michio Kaku, theoretical physicist and string theory pioneer.
And I could go on.
So unless you've read some of the scientific views behind belief in God I would say you're really not being an impartial juror.
Mind you, I'm not saying that each one of those men are believers in the God of the Bible. But they are just not pure atheists based upon science.
Perhaps your atheism has not led you to read any of these great scientific minds and their thoughts on God's existence. Let me encourage you to do so because their writings are very well respected.
Allan Sandage (arguably the greatest astronomer of the 20th century), left atheism.
He says, “The [scientific] world is too complicated in all parts and interconnections to be due to chance alone,”
Read more here:
https://thinkingmatters.org.nz/2017/11/allan-sandage/
"You may fly to the ends of the world and find no God but the Author of Salvation."
James Clerk Maxwell, deeply committed Christian. Also, a Scientist and Mathematician who has influenced all of modern day physics and voted one of the top three physicists of all time.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Clerk_Maxwell
Albert Einstein once said, 'I stand not on the shoulders of Newton, but on the shoulders of James Clerk Maxwell.'
Christopher Isham (perhaps Britain's greatest quantum cosmologist), a believer in God's existence.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Isham
Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D also left atheism. Was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of human DNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.
Wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
Also, these simple yet powerful quotes from men of science:
“There is no conflict between science and religion. Our knowledge of God is made larger with every discovery we make about the world.”
–Joseph H. Taylor, Jr., who received the 1993 Nobel Prize in Physics for the discovery of the first known binary pulsar.
“I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know his thoughts; the rest are details.”
–Albert Einstein
“One way to learn the mind of the Creator is to study His creation. We must pay God the compliment of studying His work of art and this should apply to all realms of human thought. A refusal to use our intelligence honestly is an act of contempt for Him who gave us that intelligence.”
— Physicist Ernest Walton, who won the Nobel Prize in Physics for his experiments done at Cambridge University, and so became the first person in history to artificially split the atom.
“I believe that the more thoroughly science is studied, the further does it take us from anything comparable to atheism.”
And
“If you study science deep enough and long enough, it will force you to believe in God.”
—Lord William Kelvin, who was noted for his theoretical work on thermodynamics, the concept of absolute zero and the Kelvin temperature scale based upon it.
“God created everything by number, weight and measure.”
“In the absence of any other proof, the thumb alone would convince me of God’s existence.”
—Sir Isaac Newton,
“I have concluded that we are in a world made by rules created by an intelligence. Believe me, everything that we call chance today won’t make sense anymore. To me it is clear that we exist in a plan which is governed by rules that were created, shaped by a universal intelligence and not by chance.”
–Michio Kaku, theoretical physicist and string theory pioneer.
And I could go on.
So unless you've read some of the scientific views behind belief in God I would say you're really not being an impartial juror.
Mind you, I'm not saying that each one of those men are believers in the God of the Bible. But they are just not pure atheists based upon science.
Perhaps your atheism has not led you to read any of these great scientific minds and their thoughts on God's existence. Let me encourage you to do so because their writings are very well respected.
Allan Sandage (arguably the greatest astronomer of the 20th century), left atheism.
He says, “The [scientific] world is too complicated in all parts and interconnections to be due to chance alone,”
Read more here:
https://thinkingmatters.org.nz/2017/11/allan-sandage/
"You may fly to the ends of the world and find no God but the Author of Salvation."
James Clerk Maxwell, deeply committed Christian. Also, a Scientist and Mathematician who has influenced all of modern day physics and voted one of the top three physicists of all time.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Clerk_Maxwell
Albert Einstein once said, 'I stand not on the shoulders of Newton, but on the shoulders of James Clerk Maxwell.'
Christopher Isham (perhaps Britain's greatest quantum cosmologist), a believer in God's existence.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Isham
Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D also left atheism. Was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of human DNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.
Wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
Also, these simple yet powerful quotes from men of science:
“There is no conflict between science and religion. Our knowledge of God is made larger with every discovery we make about the world.”
–Joseph H. Taylor, Jr., who received the 1993 Nobel Prize in Physics for the discovery of the first known binary pulsar.
“I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know his thoughts; the rest are details.”
–Albert Einstein
“One way to learn the mind of the Creator is to study His creation. We must pay God the compliment of studying His work of art and this should apply to all realms of human thought. A refusal to use our intelligence honestly is an act of contempt for Him who gave us that intelligence.”
— Physicist Ernest Walton, who won the Nobel Prize in Physics for his experiments done at Cambridge University, and so became the first person in history to artificially split the atom.
“I believe that the more thoroughly science is studied, the further does it take us from anything comparable to atheism.”
And
“If you study science deep enough and long enough, it will force you to believe in God.”
—Lord William Kelvin, who was noted for his theoretical work on thermodynamics, the concept of absolute zero and the Kelvin temperature scale based upon it.
“God created everything by number, weight and measure.”
“In the absence of any other proof, the thumb alone would convince me of God’s existence.”
—Sir Isaac Newton,
“I have concluded that we are in a world made by rules created by an intelligence. Believe me, everything that we call chance today won’t make sense anymore. To me it is clear that we exist in a plan which is governed by rules that were created, shaped by a universal intelligence and not by chance.”
–Michio Kaku, theoretical physicist and string theory pioneer.
And I could go on.
So unless you've read some of the scientific views behind belief in God I would say you're really not being an impartial juror.
Mind you, I'm not saying that each one of those men are believers in the God of the Bible. But they are just not pure atheists based upon science.
Perhaps your atheism has not led you to read any of these great scientific minds and their thoughts on God's existence. Let me encourage you to do so because their writings are very well respected.
Allan Sandage (arguably the greatest astronomer of the 20th century), left atheism.
He says, “The [scientific] world is too complicated in all parts and interconnections to be due to chance alone,”
Read more here:
https://thinkingmatters.org.nz/2017/11/allan-sandage/
"You may fly to the ends of the world and find no God but the Author of Salvation."
James Clerk Maxwell, deeply committed Christian. Also, a Scientist and Mathematician who has influenced all of modern day physics and voted one of the top three physicists of all time.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Clerk_Maxwell
Albert Einstein once said, 'I stand not on the shoulders of Newton, but on the shoulders of James Clerk Maxwell.'
Christopher Isham (perhaps Britain's greatest quantum cosmologist), a believer in God's existence.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Isham
Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D also left atheism. Was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of human DNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.
Wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
Also, these simple yet powerful quotes from men of science:
“There is no conflict between science and religion. Our knowledge of God is made larger with every discovery we make about the world.”
–Joseph H. Taylor, Jr., who received the 1993 Nobel Prize in Physics for the discovery of the first known binary pulsar.
“I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know his thoughts; the rest are details.”
–Albert Einstein
“One way to learn the mind of the Creator is to study His creation. We must pay God the compliment of studying His work of art and this should apply to all realms of human thought. A refusal to use our intelligence honestly is an act of contempt for Him who gave us that intelligence.”
— Physicist Ernest Walton, who won the Nobel Prize in Physics for his experiments done at Cambridge University, and so became the first person in history to artificially split the atom.
“I believe that the more thoroughly science is studied, the further does it take us from anything comparable to atheism.”
And
“If you study science deep enough and long enough, it will force you to believe in God.”
—Lord William Kelvin, who was noted for his theoretical work on thermodynamics, the concept of absolute zero and the Kelvin temperature scale based upon it.
“God created everything by number, weight and measure.”
“In the absence of any other proof, the thumb alone would convince me of God’s existence.”
—Sir Isaac Newton,
“I have concluded that we are in a world made by rules created by an intelligence. Believe me, everything that we call chance today won’t make sense anymore. To me it is clear that we exist in a plan which is governed by rules that were created, shaped by a universal intelligence and not by chance.”
–Michio Kaku, theoretical physicist and string theory pioneer.
And I could go on.
So unless you've read some of the scientific views behind belief in God I would say you're really not being an impartial juror.
Mind you, I'm not saying that each one of those men are believers in the God of the Bible. But they are just not pure atheists based upon science.
It’s better if I show you the books I read:
Specifically Richard Bauckham’s “Jesus and the eyewitnesses” will give you the historicity of the accounts but beware it is a very scholarly and academically dense textbook, not a book if you want an easy read as he will go into the deep details. The other books show scientific and philosophical arguments that I found to be very compelling.
Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief https://www.amazon.com/dp/1416542744/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_M8WG1X67SRR1R4CCC61M
Evidence That Demands a Verdict: Life-Changing Truth for a Skeptical World https://www.amazon.com/dp/B075ZDNSDF/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_RT01Q2H64PRAK3SJD8ZM
Jesus and the Eyewitnesses: The Gospels as Eyewitness Testimony https://www.amazon.com/dp/0802874312/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_Q21A085GEXGQKYEKZ3YG
The Reason for God: Belief in an Age of Skepticism https://www.amazon.com/dp/1594483493/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_8HN6W2S8JTZT9Q0BKEZP
Hey there! Dude, I was typing a huge answer, but I kinda gave up on it because I realized that in order to answer this, I would have to first explain why I even believe that God exists in the first place (1), and then, with that out of the way, explain would we believe God expects us to live and die a certain way (2). Also, I don't really know if you expect a genuine answer or if your comment was more of an attempt to question our faith just for the sake of doing it, so I didn't want to type in a huge wall of text in case you were not that interested. Besides, I was kind having trouble answering all that and keeping it linear enough to be clear where I was going to with all this, so instead I'm going to recommend you two very short and pleasant to read books by people much smarter than I am, in case you actually want to know why we believe our stuff: Regarding question 1 and regarding question 2.
But you are absolutely right to question this kind of thing, I have pondered the same kind of questions, and if I'm being perfectly honest with myself, I ceased to believe years ago, only to regain my faith much later. Which is why the first book I recommended above was particularly interesting to me, because like the author, I am a scientist who had lost his faith, and regained it by thinking really critically about several things, some of which are contemplated in this book. The second book is by an author that many christians (specially non-catholics) really like, and I think there's some useful insight in there as well. Anyways, have a nice week and stay safe!
I'm a bit late to the party here, but you should check out this website: BioLogos.com.
And these books:
The Language of God, by Francis Collins
The Lost World of Genesis One, by John Walton
My upbringing was somewhat similar, though different in many ways. I also grew up Christian. I was fortunate to attend really good Christian schools my whole life, with really intelligent and critical teachers and professors. I raised believing both in Christianity and in evolution. Although I met some Christians who were young-earthers, I always knew many who were not.
My college was particularly great, as it was a well respected academic school and also devoutly Christian. We were required to read <em>The Language of God, by Francis Collins</em>. Francis Collins is one of the top scientists in the world, appointed by President Obama as the head of the United States National Institute of Health, and leader of the project that mapped the human genome. He's also a devout Christian, and the book is about how he sees no contradiction between science and religious faith. He also founded BioLogos, a really great resource for the discussion of the synthesis of religion and science.
I was also lucky enough to study the Old Testament under one of the top professors in the world. He provided really great insight on the book of Genesis, laying out why its literary genre is more of a poetic and allegorical rather than a literal, scientific explanation of the earth's origins.
However, despite my upbringing and exposure to reasonable and intelligent, Christians, I entered into a period of intense doubt right after college. I never became an atheist - I always thought there had to be something guiding the universe. I just didn't see why I should assume that the Christian God is real, or why I should believe that Jesus rose from the dead. The book that really turned me around was <em>The Reason for God</em>, by Timothy Keller. The author tackles a lot of the tough questions that we're discussing, and really lays out a strong case for the evidence of God and Jesus' resurrection. The book really transformed my view of doubt and faith. I'm now more confident than I've ever been that a person can come to a robust faith in Christianity through reason and evidence.
Actually I am the one who feels sorry for you. In actuality - cognitive dissonance is required by atheism. God does not "strike you lame" because there is no need to. And you would never believe if any of those things happen. You would eventually strike it up to coincidence. That is a fact. You know that internally is correct. God gave you a mind. He does not need to be your magician. You would never believe that. He would rather you seek Him with your mind/understanding. There is enough evidence in creation to show that there is a Creator. Again - cognitive dissonance is on your part, not mine.
I did not grow up believing in Jesus, but was raised Jewish. However the evidence was so overwhelming that I would need cognitive dissonance to turn away from it. Again - I will say it again because you have never refuted it once. That complex things in life require thought. They require design. Male/female reproduction could never have arisen except by design.
It is a cop out and a running from these facts that you now turn to Ad hominem statements. Par for the course from most atheists I have met. They are not critical thinkers in this specific area.
There is not a shred of doubt that you will know there is a God one day. He waits very patiently (He is in no rush.) He lives forever. You (and I) have a limited number of heartbeats left.
Next time you go to a restaurant - remember - there was no chef/cook behind those doors. You are deceiving yourself to believe there was a cook/chef.
Be well my friend. No need to keep going on this. There are plenty of authors who address this subject so eloquently. Dr. Frances Collins (Head of the Human Genome Project) wrote eloquently on this subject. Amazon carries it as they do dozens of other books by scientists who have refused to resort to ad hominem, but rather use their minds to come to a logical conclusion. There is a Creator. Here is the Amazon title - The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief. https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
Be well my friend. Avoid death. You dont want to die in this state. Zero doubt.
Francis Collins (human genome project, current director of NIH) is also an evangelical Christian. He wrote this book about science and faith: https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
You should absolutely read The Language of God, by Francis Collins.
Here's a lecture that's basically a summary of the book. But please read the book.
I just want to say that I totally sympathize and am in a similar season of faith right now. I've been a Christian my entire life, but right now for seemingly no reason I'm being hit by doubt the hardest I've ever been.
I'll certainly keep you in my prayers. Just remember to keep praying and staying obedient to God. Let this season of doubt lead you deeper into His word and cause you to spend more time with Him. That's the best way to foil the enemy, imo. I also find that spending more time in Christian community is helping me.
I usually encourage critique and reason in faith, but I don't think it's wrong to put down the anti-Christian literature for a while. By all means, you should revisit it when your faith is stronger and see if you can find answers to the questions posed. But when your faith feels weak, I think it's a good time to take a rest and read more Christian apologetics, as others have mentioned.
Here are three books my pastor recommended to me today, perhaps they'll be of some use to you:
The Language of God by Francis Collins
The Reason for God by Timothy Keller
Searching Issues by Nicky Gumbel
And of course, I'm currently reading Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. I actually picked up a collection of C.S. Lewis Classics that I hope to make my way through.
Firstly, about the literal 24hr periods..
Do you think that Jesus was literally made out of wood? Because in verse 7 of John 10 he says "I am the door". The Greek word for "door" which was recorded means just that - a door or gate. A literal piece of wood which blocks an entrance. I'm sure you agree that Jesus was not claiming to be a literal door, but was saying that we have access to God the Father through him (a symbolic meaning) - even though that's not part of the definition of the word "door", and could never be understood by looking up "door" in any dictionary, or even any other uses of the word in scripture. All the other uses which I found through a quick search refer to literal wooden doors. The key here is that it's the context in which the Lord says it which lets us know what he meant.
I'm sure you see my point, but just to restate it a bit differently - just because a word only has one literal meaning does not mean it cannot be used symbolically. The Jesus/door example is the first example I thought of, I'm sure there are others.
Secondly, regarding your belief that "most of the scientific community are against God or an intelligence".. It's not actually as bad as you think. There are often surveys within different parts of the scientific community asking whether or not the individuals believe in God or a higher power. I believe the percentage who believe in God is usually estimated to be about 40-50%. Worth mentioning as a side-note that science comes from a theistic background - the quest to discover the laws of nature pre-supposed that there was a lawgiver, and was an attempt to glorify God by understanding his creation.
Nonetheless, I get your point - a lot of people use "science" to defend their atheism. What's going on is not that science suggests there is no God - it's that a lot of people use really bad reasoning, either mistakenly or on purpose, to imply atheism from scientific findings even though that's not what the science actually implies. Imagine if I said that God didn't create humans, because I saw one being born in biology class and it came out of a lady - God wasn't anywhere in sight, therefore biology has done away with the need for God. I'm sure you understand why that's flawed? Well, it's the same with the science behind the birth of the universe, for example. It's not the discovery of how things work which threaten belief in God - it's when people use bad reasoning to imply that the facts do away with God.
This is what's going on when people claim, as you describe it, "the laws of nature is the substitute for God as the 'reason' we have a universe at all." I'm sure you'll agree that's stupid, as the laws of nature can't have just created themselves - it makes no sense. So it's not the laws of nature which pose the threat to belief in God in this example, it's bad reasoning based upon the facts (I assume you believe the law of gravity and other laws of nature are facts?)
In Isaiah's words, the problem is this - "shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not?". People will try to do away with God, they always have and always will. Science is just another way to try and rationalize that for them. Christians need to make sure they don't take the bait and perpetuate the atheist myth that science threatens God. Think about it - how could honestly studying God's creation ever come to the conclusion that he doesn't exist? It can't. The problem is when we're dishonest with the findings.
I say all this in love with a genuine desire to help you if I am right, or be corrected if I am wrong! But as it stands, I feel fairly strongly that we can't go on perpetuating the atheist lie which I've just spoken about. Doing so damages our testimony and credibility, and I'm sure it has driven many people away from their faith. If we claim to believe things which are demonstrably not true, we throw off anybody who doesn't know what they believe and is on a genuine search for truth.
And despite the already massive post, I forgot to say - this book might be interesting :)
I'm a Christian and a scientist. I struggle with questions like yours often and find myself returning to belief after each 'wrestling match'. As /u/sunnyEl-ahrairah said, this kind of wrestling is a good thing. If God exists, he wants us to use our minds.
Food for thought, as I certainly don't have all the answers:
>How do I know I have the right God? Maybe I only believe in the American Jesus... While another part of the world believes in Vishnu. What if they're right? It seems like it's just fixed on wherever you are....
It comes down to the person of Jesus. Who was he? The actual son of God, a malicious liar, or a crazy person? This is CS Lewis' famous 'Lord, Liar, Lunatic' argument, you may have heard it. The answer is a matter of belief and faith -- is the Bible reliable testimony? Does it quote him accurately? The things he claimed couldn't have been made by a mere 'good man'. So who was he? Figuring that out has to be part of your search for God.
>How does the physical world reconcile with scripture (genesis, when read literal, appears to deny evolution)?
A literal interpretation? It can't. Reading the Bible out of context, translated into English, and without considering the culture just does not square with the discoveries of science. But modern cosmology and evolution can both be squared nicely with the Bible, especially when recognizing that those chapters in Genesis match well with someone's vision of we see today. Check out Francis Collins' (former head of Human Genome Project) book The Language of God for one perspective. You might also be interested in Hugh Ross, a pastor and astrophysicist, and his website Reasons to Believe.
>If there is a god, and he created all of this, isn't he just a powerful alien? How is religion really that different from science fiction?
Aliens would be within the Universe, God outside of it. Aliens would be in the same boat that we are, part of creation. We define God as the Creator, separate from the rest of Universe (somehow!).
>How can someone who created the universe care about me individually? I've started to feel like that is just brought in to encourage the peasants to listen to the church.
It's a mindblowing idea, especially in light of the size of the Universe, and it takes faith.
Some things that I see that convince me that there is design to the Universe and a Creator (apart from the Bible): - The existence of the Universe - something from nothing?? - with all the right constants to form galaxies, stars, planets... us. - DNA Transcription and other biomechanical processes - The apparent independent existence of mathematics -- mathematicians debate whether we invent math or discover it. - The existence of human consciousness, unlike anything we know elsewhere in the Universe (so far)
All of these highly ordered things exist in a Universe that tends toward disorder, entropy. With those in mind, it's actually easier for me to believe that God exists than doesn't. How he might interact with humans is a whole big other question, and that's where I consider the case of Jesus and my own observations of love, inherent right and wrong, and the arc of human history.
Recommendation from a Christian: A book she (or better yet, both of you) should read.
>You can't do it, just like I can't do the opposite.
It has been said, if one repeats a lie long enough, people start to believe it. So if that happens, what about the opposite? If someone repeats a truth long enough (if it is the truth) then they will start to believe it.
Also, I would say if one looks deeply at the evidence, it does indeed point to theism.
For instance:
Read any of these great scientific minds and their thoughts on God's existence. Let me encourage you to do so because their writings are very well respected.
(Mind you, I'm not saying that each one of those men are believers in the God of the Bible. But they are just not pure atheists based upon science.)
Allan Sandage (arguably the greatest astronomer of the 20th century), left atheism.
He says, “The [scientific] world is too complicated in all parts and interconnections to be due to chance alone,”
Read more here:
https://thinkingmatters.org.nz/2017/11/allan-sandage/
Christopher Isham (perhaps Britain's greatest quantum cosmologist), a believer in God's existence.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Isham
Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D also left atheism. Was part of the leadership of the international Human Genome Project, directing the completion of the sequencing of human DNA. Also was apointed the director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) by President Barack Obama.
Wrote a book on why belief in God is completely scientific.
https://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
Also, these simple yet powerful quotes from men of science:
“There is no conflict between science and religion. Our knowledge of God is made larger with every discovery we make about the world.”
–Joseph H. Taylor, Jr., who received the 1993 Nobel Prize in Physics for the discovery of the first known binary pulsar.
“I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know his thoughts; the rest are details.”
–Albert Einstein
“One way to learn the mind of the Creator is to study His creation. We must pay God the compliment of studying His work of art and this should apply to all realms of human thought. A refusal to use our intelligence honestly is an act of contempt for Him who gave us that intelligence.”
— Physicist Ernest Walton, who won the Nobel Prize in Physics for his experiments done at Cambridge University, and so became the first person in history to artificially split the atom.
“I believe that the more thoroughly science is studied, the further does it take us from anything comparable to atheism.”
And
“If you study science deep enough and long enough, it will force you to believe in God.”
—Lord William Kelvin, who was noted for his theoretical work on thermodynamics, the concept of absolute zero and the Kelvin temperature scale based upon it.
“God created everything by number, weight and measure.”
“In the absence of any other proof, the thumb alone would convince me of God’s existence.”
—Sir Isaac Newton,
“I have concluded that we are in a world made by rules created by an intelligence. Believe me, everything that we call chance today won’t make sense anymore. To me it is clear that we exist in a plan which is governed by rules that were created, shaped by a universal intelligence and not by chance.”
–Michio Kaku, theoretical physicist and string theory pioneer.
You can't prove that it doesn't. Now what?
Science is nothing more than the observation and constant proving of God.
Your first false presupposition is that there are good men. God's standard is the standard, He is potter, we are the clay … the pot doesn't get to ask why the potter made them that way (Romans 9). His first command is to love the Lord God with all your heart soul strength and mind and the second is to love your neighbor as yourself. It doesn't matter how good you are at the second, if you ignore the first law then it's a damnable offense. He is God. Worship is due Him and He has made it clear that every knee will bow and every tongue confess that He is Lord. Even though all deserve eternal death, He made a way to be called sons and daughters.
Don't dismiss Creationists as ignorant. Newton, Kepler and many others were God-fearing men and it was their faith in God that lead them to their discoveries. Francis Collins cracked the genome code and he writes of his journey from atheism to Christianity. In fact, I believe that Collins is a Christian that believes in evolution. Yes, they do exist.
> Actually applying one's education to one's belief is sufficient to recognize that the beliefs are irrational. Two things prevent this from having as strong an effect on belief as it might otherwise have: first, people are often unwilling to apply rational thought to their beliefs; second, even on recognizing their beliefs are irrational, they may not give them up, because of that indoctrination I mentioned.
That's all fine and dandy as an explanation. It does not in any way dispute Kai_Daigoji's point that there exist people who are "smart, and educated, and still believe". The statistics really do not make any helpful epistemological point. And in general, you did not address anything that Kai_Daigoji said.
> "One of the reasons for that is that it only takes a little education to realize that theistic religious beliefs are irrational."
But the problem is that you are still generalizing. Some people get a lot of education and do not realize that theistic beliefs are irrational (in my opinion). Others get no education and come to that conclusion by themselves. Education can, in some circumstances, for some people have the effect of exposing flaws in religion. For others, it has no such effect. It can even strengthen belief in some cases.
> .... The claims in question have been investigated, by many people over thousands of years, and none have been found to make a rational case for theistic belief.
Found by whom? Some of the smartest people in the world, such as Newton, Augustine, Collins, Aquinas, Martin Luther King and Plato did/do believe that there is a rational case for theistic belief. After investigation, I do not believe those arguments, but I also did not jump to conclusions. I did the careful work of seeing what those men actually believed, and why, and then decided whether to follow their thinking or not.
> ... If that were not the case, by now the winning claims would be well-known, and we'd teach them in schools, even schools in countries that have church-state separation, because they'd be rationally supported factual claims.
Hmmm...a moment ago you were complaining about false dichotomies. Now it seems that there are only two kinds of assertions. Ones that are true and ones that are taught uncritically in public schools. Do you really believe that? There are no assertions that are disputed and yet true?
Do you really determine truth by reading public school text books? What's in there is true and what's missing is false?
> In fact, you'd do well to realize that most educated theists acknowledge this, which is why they emphasize the notion of religious "faith" - belief despite insufficient rational support.
Yes, this is one kind of theist. There are many others.
http://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
I said:
> > Wrong is a precondition for irrational and harmful.
You said:
> There are different senses of the word "wrong", and confusing them would be equivocation, even if unintentional. I took Kai_Daigoji's use of "wrong" to be referring to theistic claims about deities and other supernatural phenomenon. One could be wrong about these without being harmful - in fact, if that were not the case, then it would rationally follow that all theists are harmful.
You've made a very fundamental logical error. I said:
Wrong is a precondition for irrational and harmful.
In other words, you cannot get to "irrational and harmful" unless you start with "wrong". (at least in the context of almost every religious theology in history)
You have instead tackled an unrelated question, which is whether you can start with "wrong" and still end up with rational/helpful. I'm not interested in exploring that branch of the argument today.
> > If Christianity is right then it is rational and helpful.
> Why are we suddenly talking specifically about Christianity?
Because it is an example religion that can ground our discussions, and because most people on Reddit are familiar with it. I'm also familiar (enough) with Islam and Scientology, if you'd prefer to use one of those. Most likely Kai_Daigoji was thinking about Christianity, however.
> But in any case, once again you are flirting with equivocation. Christianity is certainly wrong about the existence of a god named YHWH who created the universe and takes an inexplicable interest in what humans do with their genitals. Whether it is "helpful" is potentially a separate issue. I'm not going to try to respond further to your sentence since it's incoherent as it stands.
No, it's not incoherent at all. Let's try again:
I said:
> > If Christianity is right then it is rational and helpful.
If Christianity is right (accords with the true facts about reality) then YHWH/Jesus is real, and Good and the Bible tells the truth. if that's true, then God wants the best for us and his instructions are in our interest. If that's true, then we should obey his instructions (for our own good). Therefore if Christianity is right, then learning about and teaching it is rational and helpful.
Therefore, whether it is right (in accordance with reality) cannot be considered an irrelevant question. We have the following options:
Christianity is correct and irrational or harmful.
Christianity is incorrect and irrational or harmful.
Christianity is incorrect and yet not irrational or harmful.
We must address its truth claims to eliminate option 1. We cannot just handwave past it as you seemed to do when you said: "It's less about "wrong" than about irrational and harmful.
Before declaring it irrational and harmful we'd better verify that it is, in fact, wrong!
Perhaps what you meant to say was: "It is obviously wrong, and therefore the more important question is whether it is irrational or harmful."
>Christianity quells human rights around the world and every individual church going member is complacent in cover ups of heavily abused children.
I think you are confusing Christianity with Catholicism, they are very different and opposite in many ways.
>Islam is responsible for extremists through which Jihad and human right abuses are executed.
Human rights abuses have been executed by atheists too. Your logic is flawed. You can't attack a large group of people because of the actions of a small minority whose views don't represent those of the larger majority.
>Mormon and Scientology brainwashes it's members into a 'one of us... One of us...' mentality
While that may be true your opinion of it is subjective.
>people change for the worse man, it's absolutely sad.
That's like, uh, just your opinion, man.
>Secular Humanism is responsible for enlightenment of people on how we are to be accountable for our own actions through human imperative, what we should do to become better people, rejection of dogma, how to lessen the suffering of others, why it's important to learn more about the world than we did the day before and..
Enlightenment is a very interesting word. Dogma is another interesting word. Lessening the suffering of others is certainly taught by Christianity. I don't see how learning about the world, getting an education, obtaining knowledge, has anything to do with this conversation. There are plenty of Christian doctors and scientists, including the current Director of the NIH, Francis S. Collins, who wrote the book, The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief.
>War, bigotry, lies, veiled initiative all hidden under 'we only wish to save people' . AHHHHH-bullshit.
I think it's more fair to say the same about your beloved secular humanism.
You haven't got a clue what you're talking about.
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