> Many MRAs take something that some feminists say that is, admittedly, wrong, and then they use that to paint feminists as responsible for all sexism, when the truth is that sexism predated feminism by centuries; it's just that feminists are human like everyone else and not all of them have the introspection to have fully conquered their internalized sexism.
That is their failing, not that of MRA's and "no true Scotsman" is not an excuse.
> I'm not setting up a No True Scotsman fallacy here, either;
I swear I posted the above before I read this.
> I'm just pointing out that feminism, while imperfect, is not what you say it is. It is not anti-male;
The fuck it isn't.
>at worst it could be said to be thoughtless with respect to effects on men. That's far from laudable, to be sure, but it's not malicious.
Not malicious?
No anonymity for men <strong>accused</strong> of rape - operative word bolded.
Unjust and ineffective sex laws
Male Victims' experiences vary
Read The War Against Boys Written by an ex-feminist. She was kicked out of "the club" because she caught leadership pushing forward an agenda based on research that was full of lies. She tried pointing out these lies and was demonized.
Feminism claiming parental alienation isn't real
Feminists testified against the California Shared Parenting Bill and had it quashed
Why is it that anytime there is an opportunity to right a wrong between the genders... not ground level feminist, like yourself, but the leadership and management seem to do the opposite of what you suggest the "moment" means to do?
I don't fault you personally for this at all, but you must understand you cannot state "I am a feminist, I am for true equality, I empathize with your plight" then turn around and ask me to ignore the above when you do nothing about it.
You don't have to worry about MRA's you can do more to put feminism in a better light by holding your own ideology accountable to a more male-positive standard.
Stop telling us feminism is good and show us.
Side note, if you ever took the MBTI I am guessing you are an XNTP, probably an ENTP. I would be very surpised if you were not an NT. If this is all gibberish to you... don't worry too much about it.
And sources concerning the disparity in the recession... which is widely documented.
The source for the above
report from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics on the U.S. labor market in 2008 !! bls.gov PDF !!
Article fighting the (at the time) current state of the stimulus package
>'m not saying that it's your job to convince yourself of anything. I'm just saying that if you're going to make your movement about anti-feminism then you're self-limiting, and it hurts your own credibility.
I am actually very aware of the consiquence of how my stance may hurt my credibility, but because I back up almost everything I state with sources, anyone who questions the credibility because of my stance, and not the evidence I put forth would also be supceptable to other logical fallacies, and If you ever want enjoy a greek version of hell, debate someone who will not conform to logic or the rules of debate.
the "audience" I lose is an audience already lost, they just don't know it.
"You can't reason someone out of a line of thinking they themselves didn't reason into."
> I find it sad, since I think you have some legitimate points (and I wish they could be brought up in a less woman-bashing manner)
I challenge you to point out where I bashed women. I did no such thing and I am making the statement in probably over a thousand posts, have never done any such thing.
>, but it makes it very difficult for a gal like me to get on board with the men's rights movement when I feel actively made unwelcome here.
That is a relativity thing. You suggest I bash women. I know for a fact that I do not, but something I stated you interpreted that way. I am not going to jump through hoops for a theoretical audience that I may or may not offend by stating facts and making connections. If those connections offend you, be offended at the world/society that has those connections in place. Not the people pointing them out... and definitely don't tell them they should edit their speech to cater to you - Editing our limiting what can be said is the first step in controlling thought.
I would rather be called a derogatory (with hate) term and be able to communicate accurately than to not risk being verbally wounded and be unweildy in my ability to communicate.
> So right there is one sympathetic person that you are actively and consistently pushing away from your movement -- how many more just don't even bother trying to have a discussion with you about it?
Read above. You are asking people to limit their speech, not all speech is polite, not all speech is correct, but all speech should be allowed to be used.
Suggesting otherwise takes power away from those speaking. and like I wrote, is one of the first steps in controlling people.
Also, as offended as you may or may not be, I want to point out something you are doing is considered very very very offensive to others (not me) on this board.
It's called shaming language. Your *gasp, "I am offended, you are driving me away" stance, especially where there is not the offense you point out (woman bashing). Is seen as an attempt to shame men from speaking their mind in an evenhanded manner.
If you look through this thread and other postings you will start to notice something if you look for it.
labels like
"Bitch, Cunt, slut, whore"-or pretty much any ad hominem attack against women, even while not in their presence, gets violently downvoted.
If you are offended that we attack feminism, well, then don't ascribe to feminism, as we can provide hundreds if not thousands of examples as to why we fight and hate feminism. I have stated on multiple occasions, "I don't hate women, I don't hate feminists, I hate feminism".
There is a difference, one that many outsiders seem to miss, I don't know if it's on purpose or not.
I am anti Marriage for example, but not because I don't want to get married. As odd as it seems, I am anti-marriage precisely because I DO want to get married. If I didn't want to get married I wouldn't concern myself with marriage issues. Short statement to explain "I want to marry the girl who doesn't care, one way or the other, about getting married".
A good and short thread example of how r/MR is often portrayed inaccurately concerning language
Also, one final point to re-address your final question.
>So right there is one sympathetic person that you are actively and consistently pushing away from your movement -- how many more just don't even bother trying to have a discussion with you about it?
If your sympathy and support is only conditional on the entirety of the board being rose petals and pie, then we will unfortunately never have your sympathy or support.
It is your viewpoint that we are pushing you away. We are fighting feminism. Want the links to injustices that feminist power currently perpetuates against men?
-Men are not going to take the round-about route of empathizing with the "enemy" then beg for table scraps of civil liberties. Look at ANY civil rights movement, including that of women, and ask yourself how much got done by asking nicely?
Men being downtrodden by feminism was NOT an accident or simple mistake. This book, written by a former (female) feminist, chronicles her discovery of the purposeful and willful suppression of facts at the expense of young male education, to push forward a feminist agenda, to benefit girls in a realm that they needed absolutely no help in. That very agenda continues today unchecked.
As far as others not bothering to have a discussion about it... there is difference between having a discussion and having a discussion on a specific person's terms. In all honesty this board and MRA's don't actively seek out feminists with which to discuss. I have been at this for over 12 years. The only progress that has been made, has been made largely without the help of feminists.
I am sorry your paradigm is under siege and you feel as though it's a personal attack, but if you are taking the attack on feminism so personally, doesn't that speak to how tightly wound around the ideology you are?
>feminism isn't about men, it's about gender equality.
false.
http://www.amazon.com/War-Against-Boys-Misguided-Feminism/dp/0684849569
If you would like to read an in-depth look, check out The War Against Boys.