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Two Powers in Heaven: Early Rabbinic Reports about Christianity and Gnosticism (Library of Early Christology)?
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Ehrman's popular book How Jesus Became God was a response to Hurtado's work where he (Ehrman) has Jesus as a mal’akh.
It seems, also, that Boyarin, Hurtado, and Ehrman build off of the work of Segal.
Would you care to comment about this?
For a take on OT binatarianism, see Alan Segal’s The Two Powers in Heaven also Margaret Barker’s The Great Angel: A Study of Israel's Second God
Jesus forgave sins, did miracles, casted out demons and fulfilled the OT law. And to confirm that he is God he resurrected (which is something only God can do). Every time Jesus said “I AM” he’s referencing the Name God have to Moses at the burning bush.
And it’s very clear In Mathew 62-66 that Jesus is claiming to be YHWH:
>62 And the high priest arose and said to Him, “Do You answer nothing? What is it these men testify against You?” 63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, “I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!” 64 Jesus said to him, “ It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”† 65 Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, “He has spoken blasphemy! What further need do we have of witnesses? Look, now you have heard His blasphemy! 66 What do you think?” They answered and said, “He is deserving of death.”
And the commentary from the Orthodox study Bible
>26:64-66 Quoting from Ps 109 and Dan 7:13, Jesus confesses that He is the Messiah, both fully Man and fully God, for only a divine One could sit at the right hand of the Power, sharing authority with the Father. This statement was clearly understood by the high priest to be a claim of equality with God the Father (v. 65). For a mere man to claim this was punishable by death (Lv 24:16), but Christ is no mere man, and thus this declaration of equality is not blasphemy.
And every time Jesus called himself “The Son Of Man” he’s referencing the Daniel 7 verse. The Son Of Man was understood by some ancient Jews to be YHWH himself. Read these to scholarly articles
https://www.goarch.org/-/the-aramaic-phrase-bar-enos-son-of-man-dan-7-13-14-revisited
https://orthodoxwiki.org/Ancient_of_Days
And there are even modern day Jewish scholars who affirm the Second Hypostasis of YHWH(Second Figure of YHWH)
[Border Lines: The Partition of Judaeo-Christianity](https://www.amazon.com/Border-Lines-Partition-by Daniel Boyarin. Boyarin is a Jewish historian. A Professor of Talmudic Culture in the Departments of Near Eastern Studies and Rhetoric at the University of California, Berkeley. He began his education at Goddard College and received his Masters of Hebrew Literature at the Jewish Theological Seminary. His Education continued with a Masters of Semitic Languages at Columbia University
Two Powers in Heaven: Early Rabbinic Reports about Christianity and Gnosticism by Alan F. Segal. Segal was a scholar of ancient religions, specializing in Judaism's relationship to Christianity. Segal was a distinguished scholar, author, and speaker, self described as a "believing Jew and twentieth-century humanist." He completed an undergraduate degree at Amherst College and an MA at Brandeis University. In 1975, he completed a PhD dissertation at Yale University
Check out Two Powers in Heaven by Alan Segal
https://www.amazon.com/Two-Powers-Heaven-Christianity-Christology/dp/1602585490
Because Jesus claims to be The Son Of Man from the Daniel 7 messianic verse. Some ancient Jewish sects understood The Son Of Man to be YHWH himself(second hypostasis of YHWH)
>13 I continued to observe the vision in the night, and behold, One like the Son of Man was coming with the clouds of heaven, until He came to the Ancient of Days and approached Him.† 14 Then dominion, honor, and the kingdom were given to Him, and all peoples, tribes, and languages served Him. His authority is an everlasting authority which shall not pass away, and His kingdom shall not be destroyed.
https://www.goarch.org/-/the-aramaic-phrase-bar-enos-son-of-man-dan-7-13-14-revisited
https://orthodoxwiki.org/Ancient_of_Days
In the Ancient Near East a figure on the clouds of heaven was understood to be a deity (it’s used to describe gods like Baal) so this divine deity is coming to The Ancient Of Days (YHWH) and will be seated on the thrown next to him. The second hypostasis of YHWH/ Second figure shows that some ancient Jews were Binatarians (similar to the trinity)
There are even modern day Jewish scholars who affirm this.
Two Powers in Heaven: Early Rabbinic Reports about Christianity and Gnosticism by Alan F. Segal. Segal was a scholar of ancient religions, specializing in Judaism's relationship to Christianity. Segal was a distinguished scholar, author, and speaker, self described as a "believing Jew and twentieth-century humanist." He completed an undergraduate degree at Amherst College and an MA at Brandeis University. In 1975, he completed a PhD dissertation at Yale University
Border Lines: The Partition of Judaeo-Christianity by Daniel Boyarin. Boyarin is a Jewish historian. A Professor of Talmudic Culture in the Departments of Near Eastern Studies and Rhetoric at the University of California, Berkeley. He began his education at Goddard College and received his Masters of Hebrew Literature at the Jewish Theological Seminary. His Education continued with a Masters of Semitic Languages at Columbia University
Jesus did explicitly say he was God. Every time he said “I AM” he’s referencing the Name God have to Moses at the burning bush. And it’s very clear In Mathew 62-66
>62 And the high priest arose and said to Him, “Do You answer nothing? What is it these men testify against You?” 63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, “I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!” 64 Jesus said to him, “ It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”† 65 Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, “He has spoken blasphemy! What further need do we have of witnesses? Look, now you have heard His blasphemy! 66 What do you think?” They answered and said, “He is deserving of death.”
And the commentary from the Orthodox study Bible
>26:64-66 Quoting from Ps 109 and Dan 7:13, Jesus confesses that He is the Messiah, both fully Man and fully God, for only a divine One could sit at the right hand of the Power, sharing authority with the Father. This statement was clearly understood by the high priest to be a claim of equality with God the Father (v. 65). For a mere man to claim this was punishable by death (Lv 24:16), but Christ is no mere man, and thus this declaration of equality is not blasphemy.
And every time Jesus called himself “The Son Of Man” he’s referencing the Daniel 7 verse. The Son Of Man was understood by some ancient Jews to be YHWH himself. Read these to scholarly articles
https://www.goarch.org/-/the-aramaic-phrase-bar-enos-son-of-man-dan-7-13-14-revisited
https://orthodoxwiki.org/Ancient_of_Days
And there are even modern day Jewish scholars who affirm the Second Hypostasis of YHWH(Second Figure of YHWH)
Border Lines: The Partition of Judaeo-Christianity The Partition of Judaeo-Christianity by Daniel Boyarin. Boyarin is a Jewish historian. A Professor of Talmudic Culture in the Departments of Near Eastern Studies and Rhetoric at the University of California, Berkeley. He began his education at Goddard College and received his Masters of Hebrew Literature at the Jewish Theological Seminary. His Education continued with a Masters of Semitic Languages at Columbia University
Two Powers in Heaven: Early Rabbinic Reports about Christianity and Gnosticism Rabbinic Reports about Christianity and Gnosticism by Alan F. Segal. Segal was a scholar of ancient religions, specializing in Judaism's relationship to Christianity. Segal was a distinguished scholar, author, and speaker, self described as a "believing Jew and twentieth-century humanist." He completed an undergraduate degree at Amherst College and an MA at Brandeis University. In 1975, he completed a PhD dissertation at Yale University
The Jews of Jesus time DID have a notion of multiple hypostasis, or faces of God.
Here is one book about this. There is some written evidence that some during that time frame believed God had as many as 10 hypostasis. It was a major discussion during that time frame, who was the other face of God that shows up from time to time in the Old Testament, and the Christian revelation is that is Jesus, while the rabbinic Jews rejected that revelation so much they rewrote and whitewashed notable figures such as Rabbi Akiva whom was known for believing the Two Powers in heaven idea.
<strong>https://www.amazon.com/Two-Powers-Heaven-Christianity-Christology/dp/1602585490</strong>
Yes there is. There are quotes from early church fathers from the first and second century showing they were trinitarians
There were also some ancient Jewish sects before the time of Christ who were Binatarians (second hypostasis of YHWH)
Here are some books by modern day Jews who affirm this belief
And there were many people who believed he was God before the Nicene Creed. The Christians didn’t make up the trinity doctrine. Some ancient Jews already knew of a trinity type concept. There were some Jewish sects in the in the second temple period that believed the Messiah would be God himself. Some verses in the Old Testament that were Binatarian are Genesis 19:24, Exodus 15:3, Daniel 7:9-14.
There are many scholars who believe this including modern day Jewish scholars such as Alan F Segal, he wrote a book on this topic
https://www.biblestudying.net/trinity2.html
https://www.biblestudying.net/trinity5.html
I don’t know the names of the sects but these 2 books here talk about them. These books are also written by modern Jewish scholars so there’s no Christian bias
Possibly, there was a sect of Judaism that believed the messiah would be God or some sort of divine being. The most popular verses that indicate this are Daniel 7:14 (“Son Of Man”, “Ancient Of Days”) and some verses talking about “The Angel Of The Lord”
Here are some books by modern day Jewish scholars who affirm the belief that the messiah would be God (second hypostasise of YHWH)
Border Lines: The Partition of Judaeo-Christianity (Divinations: Rereading Late Ancient Religion)
“The angel of the Lord” “Son Of Man” “Spirit of the Lord” was all understood by some ancient Jews that YHWH was a trinitarian God. Here is a video that explains the trinity in the Old Testament
The trinity in the Old Testament
Also here is some books by modern day Jewish scholars that affirm of the belief that YHWH was a trinitarian God
No John 9 just says “ I am that man” just a regular man, unlike John where Jesus says I AM the bread of life
As for Daniel 7:14 you have to read it in it’s full context “9I beheld until the thrones were set, and the Ancient of days sat; and his raiment was white as snow, and the hair of his head, as pure wool: his throne was a flame of fire, and his wheels burning fire. 10A stream of fire rushed forth before him: thousand thousands ministered to him, and ten thousands of myriads, attended upon him: the judgment sat, and the books were opened. 11I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which that horn spoke, until the wild beast was slain and destroyed, and his body given to be burnt with fire. 12And the dominion of the rest of the wild beasts was taken away; but a prolonging of life was given them for certain times. 13I beheld in the night vision, and, lo, one coming with the clouds of heaven as the Son of man, and he came on to the Ancient of days, and was brought near to him. 14And to him was given the dominion, and the honour, and the kingdom; and all nations, tribes, and languages, shall serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom shall not be destroyed.
The “Ancient of day” was understood to be YHWH and “coming with clouds of heaven” was understood to be some sort of divine deity.
Here are some books by modern day Jewish school who affirm the second hypostasise of YHWH
Border lines: The Partition of Judaeo-Christianity (Divinations: Rereading Late Ancient Religion)
Son Of Man was understood to be the messiah and some ancient Jews also understood it YHWH was a trinity. See This video and this book
two powers in heaven (That book is written by a Jew who confirms that there was a belief that YHWH was a Trinitarian God)
Son of Man comes from daniels prophecy
13I beheld in the night vision, and, lo, one coming with the clouds of heaven as the Son of man, and he came on to the Ancient of days, and was brought near to him.
14And to him was given the dominion, and the honour, and the kingdom; and all nations, tribes, and languages, shall serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom shall not be destroyed.
Also when Jesus says “ I AM” he’s claiming to be God.
>The concept of "messiah" during the time of Jesus was radically different to what many modern Christians think.
This is true.
>The messiah was to be a Davidic king who would liberate the Jews from Roman occupation and oppression.
Yup.
>None of that means the messiah is divine, or that he came to sacrifice himself for the forgiveness of sins.
I'm going to push back on this. I think it would be better put that it was less common that the figure of the Messiah (a human military leader) would be tied to the second hypostasis of YHWH. More on this below...
>Those concepts came about later, decades after Jesus
This is where I think a common mistake is made. The christological "evolutionary model" was incredibly popular during the 20th century and still holds a lot of popular sway today because of its simplistic position (e.g. "No one would have believed that so it was made up later."). However... it's largely been discredited since the mid 1990's by anyone who doesn't have a horse in the race. Generally, the modern historical discoveries from Qumran and throughout Palestine show that the divinity of the Son of Man concept was firmly rooted throughout Second Temple Period literature. The concept of binitarianism (or the second hypostasis of YHWH) was pretty well received at the time throughout the region.
From purely Jewish scholars on the subject of divinity and the hypostasis of YHWH:
The Gospel of the Memra: Jewish Binitarianism and the Prologue to John (Daniel Boyarin)
Two Powers in Heaven: Early Rabbinic Reports about Christianity and Gnosticism (Alan F. Segal)
The Bodies of God and the World of Ancient Israel (Benjamin D. Sommer)
Border Lines: The Partition of Judaeo-Christianity (Daniel Boyarin)
I am going to approach this from a purely secular mindset now. So with the imminent expectation of the Messiah and the ubiquitous acceptance of the second hypostasis (binitarianism)...is it really so much of a stretch to believe that someone claiming to be the Messiah would also claim divinity? Literally every ruler of the time was making some claim regarding their own divine status. Why wouldn't someone claiming to be a messiah not also tie themselves to the divine Son of Man present in the Enochic literature? It's perfectly reasonable to believe that Jesus claimed to be both the Messiah and the divine Son of Man (Word of God, YHWH Angel, etc... see all of the 2TP literature). It was not a later development.
Simply put, it's perfectly reasonable that one of the people claiming to be the Messiah would also claim divinity. It's perfectly reasonable that some Jewish leaders would follow Jesus and other Jewish leaders of the time would call Jesus' claims heretical and blasphemous. To be clear, it was not a heresy to call yourself the Messiah, but it was a heresy to claim to be the Son of Man, the incarnation of the person/hypostasis of YHWH. It's perfectly reasonable that Jesus' followers, believing in his divinity and divine rulership, would die for their beliefs. Nobody else was dying for their dead false messiah who was just supposed to be a military leader. And there were a lot of dead false messiahs both before and after Jesus.
>Paul
There seems to be an implication here that Paul simply changed tactics. Another popular trope, but again, one that simply isn't backed up by the necessary scholarship. Paul's letters, written earlier than even the Gospels, reflect a particular Jewish mindset. His experience on the road to Damascus (a secular individual might call it a hallucination) caused him to shift from persecuting this new Jewish sect to joining them, even going so far as to be imprisoned for years and die. This sect was already growing among the Gentiles; that's why the movement was such a threat. Again, it wasn't Paul who initiated this, but rather he was one who joined in post-hoc. It just doesn't stand to reason that a person who simply made a tactical shift to focus on Gentiles, but who didn't really believe what he was saying or doing, would go through all that abuse.
See Daniel Boyarin's Gospel of the Memra and Alan Segal's Two Powers in Heaven: Early Rabbinic Reports about Christianity and Gnosticism.
Yeah, I know, which is why I pointed it out. Here is an article that covers the Churches stance on nationalism, with a quote from the 1800's condemnation of nationalism. https://deathtotheworld.com/articles/strangers-in-a-foreign-land-nationalism-and-the-orthodox-church/
Yeah, I realize you don't believe in the Holy Trinity, but this has not always be,en the case for Orthodox Judaism. This is a very interesting book by Alan Segal, a practicing Orthodox Jew, about the different hypostasis of God discussed during the 2nd Temple period. It was during the 2nd century A.D. that these were declared heresies in response to Christianity.
https://www.amazon.com/Two-Powers-Heaven-Christianity-Christology/dp/1602585490
Christianity has been described as tame, compared to some of the other cases, with some evidence found of up to 10 hypostasis of God.
I find all of this very interesting,
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