{"product":{"product_id":"1594036225","title":"What Is Marriage?: Man and Woman: A Defense","price":"17.87","image_url":"https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/31k1lWfefoL._SL500_.jpg","url":"https://www.amazon.com/dp/1594036225"},"comments":[{"body":"I'm afraid you're seriously mistaken.  Two people of the same sex can't be married.  It's like how a square can't be a circle.  It just goes against the definition of the term.\r\n\r\nIf you want to understand why I say this, I highly recommend [this book](https://www.amazon.com/What-Marriage-Man-Woman-Defense/dp/1594036225?keywords=robert+p+george+what+is+marriage\u0026amp;qid=1540702446\u0026amp;sr=8-1-fkmrnull\u0026amp;ref=sr_1_fkmrnull_1).  It explains why it is illogical to consider anything other than an exclusive man-woman union as a marriage.\r\n\r\nThis isn't about \"tolerance\".  This is about the meaning of the term marriage.","subreddit_name":"Catholicism","author":"love-your-enemies"},{"body":"But why is it \"abusive\" and \"inherently wrong\" to beat one's child if I can \"find examples\" of kids who were beat who turned out okay? \r\n\r\nIf you want a book which includes a pretty good index of the surveys available and which makes a secular argument against SSM, I would recommend: https://www.amazon.com/What-Marriage-Man-Woman-Defense/dp/1594036225","subreddit_name":"DebateACatholic","author":"Veritas-VosLiberabit"},{"body":"That's the liberal position, yes.  \r\n\r\nIf you are interested in this topic and are willing to entertain a serious and secular defense of traditional marriage, the likes of which you will never be exposed to without seeking it out, here's a read:  \r\n\r\nhttps://www.amazon.com/What-Marriage-Man-Woman-Defense/dp/1594036225   \r\n\r\nYour views on marriage have been informed by pop culture. You can do better than that.  ","subreddit_name":"The_Donald","author":"jim_okc"},{"body":"Great post. Ryan T Anderson is a fellow Catholic who I greatly admire. It takes strength to stand firm in  face of shifting culture.\r\n\r\nCheck out the book he made with two other authors. It will provide you with arguments in favour of traditional marriage.\r\n\r\nhttp://www.amazon.com/What-Is-Marriage-Woman-Defense/dp/1594036225","subreddit_name":"TrueChristian","author":"Stari_tradicionalist"},{"body":"Interesting, he seems to have recycled the main thesis from the book \"What is Marriage.\" (read this once; good stuff)\r\nhttp://www.amazon.com/What-Marriage-Man-Woman-Defense/dp/1594036225/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8\u0026amp;qid=1424717992\u0026amp;sr=8-1\u0026amp;keywords=what+is+marriage\r\n","subreddit_name":"TheRedPill","author":"rkingsley"},{"body":"\u0026gt; 4.Which is a better outcome\r\n\r\nThe best outcome is following the truth about homosexuality and abortion, don't you think?  \r\n\r\nAnd truth can't be \"made more accessible\" or changed for utilitarian ends like bringing people back.  It just is true.\r\n\r\nI would highly recommend some good books, such as [What is Marriage: Man and Woman, a Defense](https://www.amazon.com/What-Marriage-Man-Woman-Defense/dp/1594036225) and [Persuasive Pro-Life](https://www.amazon.com/Persuasive-Pro-Life-Cultures-Toughest/dp/1941663044/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=persuasive+pro+life\u0026amp;qid=1565423206\u0026amp;s=books\u0026amp;sr=1-1) by Trent Horn.  It may help to understand why pro-lifers and people who believe in natural marriage hold the views they hold, before suggesting they change them.\r\n\r\nFurthermore, many liberal denominations are in decline, even though they changed their teachings to be more accommodating to outsiders.  The Catholic Church does not need to become more liberal or accommodating to current trends to thrive and be successful:  https://onenewsnow.com/church/2016/11/20/study-churches-with-conservative-theology-grow-faster","subreddit_name":"TraditionalCatholics","author":"Happy_Pizza_"},{"body":"It would be sinful to enter into a same-sex civil marriage, regardless of one's good intention to help a friend. This is still the case even if neither person has homosexual tendencies.\r\n\r\nThis moral teaching was made clear in a 2003 document by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger:\r\n\r\n\u0026gt; \"In those situations where homosexual unions have been legally recognized or have been given the legal status and rights belonging to marriage, *clear and emphatic opposition is a duty*. One must refrain from any kind of formal cooperation in the enactment or application of such gravely unjust laws and, as far as possible, from material cooperation on the level of their application. In this area, everyone can exercise the right to conscientious objection.\"\r\n\r\n\u0026gt; - Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, [Considerations regarding Proposals to Give Legal Recognition to Unions between Homosexual persons](https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20030731_homosexual-unions_en.html), paragraph 5\r\n\r\nAlthough it does not directly address the question of *civil* marriage, I recommend watching Jason Evert's video [Homosexuality, Marriage and Holiness](https://youtu.be/Touq_05bN6o) to show the logic and loving motivation behind the Church's moral stance.\r\n\r\nFor a detailed explanation of the non-religious, philosophical/rational/social case why the State should not redefine civil marriage to include same-sex couples, I recommend [What is Marriage? Man and Woman: a Defense](https://www.amazon.com/What-Marriage-Man-Woman-Defense/dp/1594036225). One of the authors, Sherif Girgis, has a great 35 min talk that summarizes the arguments [here](https://youtu.be/bcAEVta3Xf4).","subreddit_name":"Catholicism","author":"Thanar2"},{"body":"If you're serious you'll read a (short) book about it.\r\n\r\nhttps://www.amazon.com/What-Marriage-Man-Woman-Defense/dp/1594036225","subreddit_name":"Catholicism","author":"Spare-Dingo-531"},{"body":"I recommend reading/watching *What Is Marriage?: Man and Woman: A Defense* as a [video](https://youtu.be/KiANkCoqEt0), [paper](https://www.catholiceducation.org/en/controversy/marriage/what-is-marriage.html) or [book](https://www.amazon.com/What-Marriage-Man-Woman-Defense/dp/1594036225) by Sherif Girgis, Ryan T. Anderson and Robert P. George.\r\n\r\nIt is a secular, rational natural law case for *conjugal* marriage, in contrast to *revisionist* views of marriage (e.g. 'same-sex marriage' and 'poly unions').\r\n\r\nHere is an excerpt from the start of the paper:\r\n\r\n\u0026gt;What is marriage? Consider two competing views:\r\n\u0026gt;\r\n\u0026gt; **Conjugal View:** Marriage is the union of a man and a woman who make a permanent and exclusive commitment to each other of the type that is naturally (inherently) fulfilled by bearing and rearing children together. The spouses seal (consummate) and renew their union by conjugal acts acts that constitute the behavioral part of the process of reproduction, thus uniting them as a reproductive unit. Marriage is valuable in itself, but its inherent orientation to the bearing and rearing of children contributes to its distinctive structure, including norms of monogamy and fidelity. This link to the welfare of children also helps explain why marriage is important to the common good and why the state should recognize and regulate it.\r\n\u0026gt;\r\n\u0026gt; **Revisionist View:** Marriage is the union of two people (whether of the same sex or of opposite sexes) who commit to romantically loving and caring for each other and to sharing the burdens and benefits of domestic life. It is essentially a union of hearts and minds, enhanced by whatever forms of sexual intimacy both partners find agreeable. The state should recognize and regulate marriage because it has an interest in stable romantic partnerships and in the concrete needs of spouses and any children they may choose to rear.\r\n\r\nIt also demonstrates how the common good of society crucially depends on legally enshrining the *conjugal* view of marriage and is damaged by enshrining the *revisionist* view.","subreddit_name":"Catholicism","author":"Thanar2"},{"body":"\u0026gt;What unifying good is there to procreation? And gay people can educate children as well.\r\n\r\nSorry, I missed a word in there. I am saying this is the end (read: function or purpose) towards which marriage is ordered. It should be read as the unifying good of marriage is procreation and child rearing. Sorry if that was unclear.\r\n\r\n\u0026gt;Could you expand on this \"glue\"\r\n\r\n[The nuclear family](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_family) is fortified by the commitments I mentioned (permanence, exclusivity, and so on).\r\n\r\n\u0026gt;If to procreate means to \"bring forth\", it is possible through surrogacy for a gay person to procreate and raise the child.\r\n\r\nTwo gay people cannot, together, [procreate](https://www.google.com/search?q=procreate+definition\u0026amp;sxsrf=ALiCzsY508VwX47rOaORO2Cbozg_NqV01Q%3A1665437432339\u0026amp;ei=-I5EY8D1E4TDqtsPuLmnoAY\u0026amp;oq=procreate+de\u0026amp;gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAMYADILCAAQgAQQsQMQgwEyBQgAEIAEMgUIABCABDIFCAAQgAQyBQgAEIAEMgUIABCABDIFCAAQgAQyBQgAEIAEMgUIABCABDIFCAAQgAQ6BAgAEEc6DwgAELEDEIMBEEMQRhD5AToHCAAQsQMQQzoICAAQgAQQsQM6CggAELEDEIMBEEM6CwgAEIAEELEDEMkDSgQIQRgASgQIRhgAUKACWNAGYKgSaABwAngAgAF8iAHHApIBAzEuMpgBAKABAcgBCMABAQ\u0026amp;sclient=gws-wiz). You know this. Gay people don't procreate through surrogacy. A child never results from sexual activity between members of the same sex.\r\n\r\n\u0026gt;But your beliefs are not secular, which is the point of the post\r\n\r\nJust because a belief is held by someone who is Catholic doesn't make it or the reasoning upon which it is predicated a religious belief. I also believe 2 and 2 make 4, and the Church would endorse that as well. Is that belief religious or secular? Nowhere in my posts have I made recourse to the authority of the Church or divine revelation. You need not be religious for any of these arguments. In fact, the arguments I've made so far say nothing about the morality of homosexual activity, although the Church of course believes what She does about that as well. \r\n\r\n\u0026gt;Not really, there were cultures where gay people got married, specifically in Native American Cultures and some South African tribes.\r\n\r\nOnly recently, that's the point. I see Argentina being first to legally recognize it in 2010. It's a novelty.\r\n\r\n\u0026gt;Probably because most people are heterosexual? Also because reproduction was a priority. I'm not arguing against straight marriage, so I don't know why you bothered with that.\r\n\r\nMost people are still heterosexual. You are arguing against a conception of marriage though, which holds gender complementarity as an essential feature. Its stability in historical conceptions of marriage despite other variations (such as number of women or men) is telling. This is the point I was trying to make.\r\n\r\nI am leaving home for a while, this is likely the last response I'll be posting. Thanks for being pretty respectful. Really, at this point, if you are curious about all of this, do some reading. It's much more fruitful than reddit conversations, and you'll hear from people smarter than myself. I'd suggest [What is Marriage?](https://www.amazon.com/What-Marriage-Man-Woman-Defense/dp/1594036225). It's a quick read and will make the case with secular arguments. \r\n\r\nHave a good one my friend.","subreddit_name":"Catholicism","author":"judica_me_deus"},{"body":"As others have made clear, Catholics are obligated to oppose 'same-sex marriage'. This moral teaching was made clear in a 2003 document by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger:\r\n\r\n\u0026gt; \"In those situations where homosexual unions have been legally recognized or have been given the legal status and rights belonging to marriage, *clear and emphatic opposition is a duty*. One must refrain from any kind of formal cooperation in the enactment or application of such gravely unjust laws and, as far as possible, from material cooperation on the level of their application. In this area, everyone can exercise the right to conscientious objection.\"\r\n\r\n\u0026gt; - Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, [Considerations regarding Proposals to Give Legal Recognition to Unions between Homosexual persons](https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20030731_homosexual-unions_en.html), paragraph 5\r\n\r\nI recommend watching Jason Evert's video [Homosexuality, Marriage and Holiness](https://youtu.be/Touq_05bN6o) to show the logic and loving motivation behind the Church's moral stance.\r\n\r\nFor a detailed explanation of the non-religious, philosophical/rational/social case why the State should not redefine civil marriage to include same-sex couples, I recommend [What is Marriage? Man and Woman: a Defense](https://www.amazon.com/What-Marriage-Man-Woman-Defense/dp/1594036225). [This video](https://youtu.be/bcAEVta3Xf4) summarizes the arguments.","subreddit_name":"Catholicism","author":"Thanar2"},{"body":"\u0026gt; If moral is the sum of the values of a community,\r\n\r\nHow can morals be the sum values of a community?  \r\n\r\nDoes that mean you approve of Saudi Arabia's practices related to stoning gays, executing prisoners, ect?  Or China's practices of jailing political dissidents?  Or traditional practices around the world allowing for female circumcision or slavery?  \r\n\r\nThat's the sum of the values of different communities around the world.  Are they moral?\r\n\r\nIf morals are just the sum values of a community, that means morality is relative to society.  **You have no basis to judge anyone or any religion if that's all morality is.**  \r\n\r\nAnd, just to emphasize, that's not what the Catholic Church believes, **that's what YOU believe**.  Just because you don't accept or want to admit the implications of your beliefs doesn't make the implications not real.\r\n\r\n\u0026gt; then how can you want to be a part of that community\r\n\r\nDon't you think it is rather \"intolerant\" (again according to your own beliefs) to tell people what communities they should want to belong to?  That's just as judgmental as Catholics trying to teach people what marriage is.\r\n\r\n\u0026gt; If nobody can judge a relationship... how can religion?\r\n\r\nIf relationships cannot be judged, then they're just morally neutral questions, like what should I eat for dinner or how should I cut my hair.  If they are just morally neutral questions, then, **according to your own beliefs**, \"should I break up with my boyfriend to follow the Church\" is like asking \"should I eat stir fry or salad for dinner.\"  \r\n\r\nThere's no way to morally judge which choice is better, so there is no way to morally judge the person judging.  This again is according to what you are saying, by implication.  And again, the implications are real, even if you don't want to accept them.\r\n\r\nRemember, no one is coercing anyone.  The Catholic Church isn't forcing the original poster to break up with his boyfriend.  The Church is just saying things, and he is following.  There is no coercion against anyone's will here so you can't say \"it's immoral because of coersion.\"\r\n\r\nNow, no one behaves like this in real life.  Everyone (including you, or else you wouldn't be angered by what happened), thinks relationships have more weight and seriousness than what to eat for dinner.  The Catholic Church definitely things that.  But this is why statements like \r\n\r\n\u0026gt; moral is the sum of the values of a community\r\n\r\nand\r\n\r\n\u0026gt; nobody can judge a relationship\r\n\r\nAre wrong.  They are not accurate descriptions of the world and, well, if you cared about things like truth and intellectual honesty, you would discard them.\r\n\r\n\u0026gt; And once more: who says that ssa is bad? or where is it written?\r\n\r\nLook, this really requires a book length treatment.  I would recommend [what is marriage: man and woman a defense](https://www.amazon.com/What-Marriage-Man-Woman-Defense/dp/1594036225) as a good explanation of why marriage can only be understood between man and woman.\r\n\r\n---------------------------------------------------------------\r\n\r\nAs for why the truth about marriage and gender matters, we have to turn to a somewhat unrelated issue.  [Just look at recent cases involving transgender regreters](https://thefederalist.com/2019/01/03/30-transgender-regretters-come-closet-new-book/).  There is a lot of concern that people are rushing into changing their birth sex because it has become a political/identarian issue.  The truth of the matter is that these are difficult decisions, people cannot easily change their birth sex, and children are unfit to make these permanent decisions.  Because some people want to deny these truths, lives will be ruined as a result.  \r\n\r\nSo the truth has consequences, even if the consequences are not immediate.  And the same goes for your beliefs as well.  \r\n\r\nAs for the Catholic beliefs, we have been around for 2000 years, exist in every nation on the planet, [and built Western Civilization](https://www.amazon.com/Catholic-Church-Built-Western-Civilization-ebook/dp/B00C0JE80W).  There have been abuses and things haven't been perfect and indeed, Catholicism teaches that evil will always be with us, even in the Church, until the end of the world.  But overall the consequences of the beliefs of the Catholic faith are beneficial, the proof is in the deeds we have done and how long we have lasted and how far we have spread.  The same cannot be said of social liberalism.","subreddit_name":"Catholicism","author":"Happy_Pizza_"},{"body":"There are several verses on the topic that make it clear where the Bible stands. Since people get funny about the OT, let's just look at NT verses. \r\n\r\n[http://www.witnessfortheworld.org/homont.html](http://www.witnessfortheworld.org/homont.html)\r\n\r\nI'd also recommend you read [What is Marriage?](https://www.amazon.com/What-Marriage-Man-Woman-Defense/dp/1594036225/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8\u0026amp;qid=1526391432\u0026amp;sr=8-1\u0026amp;keywords=what+is+marriage) and [Correct, Not Politically Correct](https://www.amazon.com/Politically-Same-Sex-Marriage-Everyone-Expanded/dp/1599338270/ref=sr_1_1?s=books\u0026amp;ie=UTF8\u0026amp;qid=1526391457\u0026amp;sr=1-1\u0026amp;keywords=correct+not+politically+correct+frank+turek). The \"Correct\" book is a really short read and has a useful Q\u0026amp;A section in the back. What is Marriage is more academic but still a great read. Interestingly, neither relies much on the Bible to make their convincing case for marriage. ","subreddit_name":"Christianity","author":"cypherhalo"},{"body":"\u0026gt;I don't think the primary purpose for women is to have children. It seems like that is what Catholicism focuses on telling women to do, and that's it. \r\n\r\nThis is completely wrong.  There have been some amazing women in the Catholic Church such as [Catherine of Siena](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catherine_of_Siena), who is a Doctor of the Church, or Joan of Arc.  \r\n\r\nIn fact, [the first PhD in computer science was obtained by a Catholic nun.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Kenneth_Keller)\r\n\r\nAs for homosexual marriage, It may help to do some research into the philosophical arguments about what marriage is before making a judgement on that issue.  There are some good books [arguing that marriage is only a conceptually coherent concept if it is in between a man and a woman](https://www.amazon.com/What-Marriage-Man-Woman-Defense/dp/1594036225).   \r\n\r\nBut just in general, both the emotionally connective and procreative aspects are necessary for marriage.  We shouldn't drop one just because both are necessary.\r\n\r\nLastly, we should not forget that homosexuals will always fit into the Catholic Church!  There are [many homosexuals who remain faithful to the teachings of the church].  In fact there are many even on reddit and one of our mods is even a gay Catholic cannon lawyer . There are some great AMAs in r/Catholicism by gay people.\r\n\r\nhttps://www.reddit.com/r/Catholicism/comments/4tf3ne/i_am_a_homosexual_celibate_catholic_man_ama/\r\n\r\nhttps://www.reddit.com/r/Catholicism/comments/14hg4r/iama_gay_celibate_27yearold_catholic_man_ama/","subreddit_name":"IAmA","author":"Happy_Pizza_"},{"body":"M.D./Ph student checking in that supports traditional marriage.\r\nhttp://www.amazon.com/What-Is-Marriage-Woman-Defense/dp/1594036225","subreddit_name":"worldnews","author":"DawgsOnTopUGA"}]}