What is Reddit's opinion of When Jesus Became God: The Struggle to Define Christianity during the Last Days of Rome?

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Don't give him Dawkins or Hitchens. The Christian apologists have books to counter the New Atheists' books.

I'd actually suggest something like When Jesus Became God. It has absolutely nothing to do with atheism, but really lays bare that Christianity was originally a political weapon, not a religion. When asked why that particular book, point out that it's 2018 and Bronze Age religions have no place in the modern world. There is nothing divine about the religion as it exists today. It was designed (I use that word intentionally) by a bunch of politicians as a political weapon and only the patina of time hides the ugly truth of Christianity's origins.

How did you get earliest = better?

Also if you want a source, I would suggest Rubenstien's When Jesus Became God. Or anything from Bart Ehrman. Or anything not found in a Christian book store.

What’s sadder is that most trinitarians who cite the Nicene creed don’t actually know the truth as to what happened before, at, and after the Council of Nicaea. It wasn’t a simple debate/vote, it was a huge mess that included violence and politics. If anyone is interested in reading about what truly happened around that time I highly suggest reading Jewish scholar Richard Rubenstein’s book When Jesus Became God: The Struggle to Define Christianity during the Last Days of Rome. I read it and came out the other side of it as a strong Biblical Unitarian.

"When Jesus Became God" is a great book about the development of the doctrine of the Trinity and how its proponents took over by literally killing those who thought differently.

https://www.amazon.com/When-Jesus-Became-God-Christianity/dp/0156013150

So for me, one thing that's huge is the whole Council of Nicea in the 4th century. That's when the whole concept of the Trinity and Jesus/Isa as God (astaghfirullah) came about. The turn away from monotheism. Note that Allah(swt) sent the Prophet and revealed the Qur'an 200 years later to clear things up. There are a few good books on the topic:

"When Jesus Became God" https://www.amazon.com/When-Jesus-Became-God-Christianity/dp/0156013150

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"How Jesus Became God" https://www.amazon.com/How-Jesus-Became-God-Exaltation-ebook/dp/B00DB39V2Q/ref=tmm\_kin\_swatch\_0?\_encoding=UTF8&qid=1664595009&sr=1-3

Don’t you find it the least bit odd that no Christian in the New Testament ever discusses at length the concept/importance of the trinity within themselves and their fellow believers? That no religious leader in the New Testament ever accuses the Christians of falsely worshipping Jesus as Israel’s God (Idolatry) even though the Jews didn’t believe in Jesus. That no Christian ever mentions the trinity to pagan worshippers to explain that Jesus is the true God in a trinity while others are false.

According to the trinity the God of Israel died and came back to life and yet there’s no argument for or against how that’s even possible in the New Testament considering that the Jews believed their God to be immune from death unlike them. Consider also the fact that it would be the greatest scandal in Jewish history for the Jews to have killed their own God and yet the Christians are never accused by the Jews of slandering their religious leaders to the highest degree.

Consider that when Peter and John were brought to the council of the Jewish religious leaders there isn’t a single mention of the trinity or a singly discussion about the “new revelation” of the identity of their God. Consider that when Paul preaches in Athens to the pagans, Paul makes no case or even mention of Jesus being God or the trinity being the true God.

The single most greatest topic today is “Who is God” but that never was in question in the time of the first the first Christians. There is zero evidence/trace that the trinity had any influence or impact in the life and ministry of the Apostles. Where there ought to be arguments and defense statements for the trinity, there is none. It should be clear as day and without a shadow of a doubt that the trinity is a reality for the first Christians but that is clearly not the case. They don’t ever mention it. They don’t argue in favor of it when talking to unbelievers and they don’t ever discuss it amongst theirselves like we do.

Either the trinity wasn’t important or it simply didn’t exist and since the trinity attempts to explain the identity of God it cannot possibly be the former. If you want to see how the trinity impacts the Christian faith I suggest you read Jewish scholar Richard Rubenstein’s book When Jesus Became God: The Struggle to Define Christianity during the Last Days of Rome. That book outlines the how and why the identity of God came into question and thoroughly divided the Christian faith. A division that still echos in our day and age. It also explains that the council of Nicaea was nowhere near as honest or decisive as many Christians today have come to believe it was. Everywhere the trinity has been, it has left a huge mess. A mess that doesn’t exist anywhere in the New Testament.

Hi! So I’m the moderator of r/BiblicalUnitarian and the knowledge that Christians have today about modern eastern culture and traditions is comparatively nil when compared to their knowledge on Ancient Near East culture and traditions.

One of the transformations I made as a Christian is to finally recognize the lack of knowledge on ANE/Jewish/Early Church I had as a westerner. Contrary to popular belief you can’t just open up the Bible, read a passage, and then assume you’ve got the story behind said passage. Open up any other theology book from a different religion and you’ll be lost because you’re stepping inside a world that isn’t your own. The Bible is not exclusive in this matter.

Now, the trinity. Historically speaking it’s a foreign concept from the text that later became a popular/controversial interpretation 300+ years after the writers of the text were long gone.

I won’t go into detail here but the summary of its conception and later domination of the major Christian communities is that after Rome had finally decided to stop persecuting Christians the Christian community then shifted its focus on theology, and more importantly, politics. Emperor Constantine was a proclaimed Christian and the struggle to keep his ear and favor was also the struggle to keep you and your specific brand of Christian beliefs on top of all the others. This is where the trinitarians/arians come into play.

The trinitarians were lead by two men of significant importance, Alexander of Alexandria and Athanasius of Alexandria with Alexander being the mentor of Athanasius. The arians were lead by Arius and Eusebius of Nicodemia. Both sides of the controversy vied not only for Constantine’s support but also for the people’s support. They constantly were at each other’s throats which was promoting the disunity that Constantine was trying to quell throughout the empire, so Constantine called for a meeting between all parties of the controversy to create peace.

Fast forward to the council of Nicaea where it was mostly attended by Trinitarians with a few Arians. There it was ”decided” that Jesus is God but it was decided in such a way that didn’t actually satisfy anyone but the trinitarians as Arius was exiled from the land.

Most Christian think the discussion ends there but it actually doesn’t. While trinitarianism had its romp about in the land many Christian communities didn’t adhere to the creed and stuck with Arius. Emperor Constantine himself later favored the the Arian view of Jesus and was baptized on his deathbed by none other than Arius’s main supporter Eusebius of Nicodema. Constantine’s own son Constantius II, who succeeded him to the throne(kinda), was an open Arian.

Now, it’s important to note that after Constantine died his two sons took control of the empire. The Pro-Arian side was the East as that’s the half that Constantius was ruler of and the Anti-Arian side was the West which was ruled by Constans. Ultimately Constantius took full control of the empire and quashed the trinitarians until after his death when the trinitarians finally took over the entire empire.

I’m skipping over ALOT but that’s the general history behind the trinity. The whole ordeal plays out like the Netflix show House of Cards and it’s not well known how dirty the leaders of this particular controversy played. There are accusations of beatings, blackmail, kidnapping, and thug like behavior from both sides (But most notably from the side of Athanasius of Alexandria as he was reported to be a very dangerous man to cross). You can read a more in-depth analysis on the controversy in Richard Rubenstein’s book When Jesus Became God

Does the history of the trinity extend into the Bible? No. Historically speaking the Jews and early Christians were never at each other’s throats over who the God of Israel actually is, but if Jesus is the God’s true messiah. There is zero support in the text for the idea that Christians went around Israel picking a bone with the native Jews about whether or not Jesus is Yahweh. The implication that the Jews killed the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob would’ve exploded in the Christian & Jewish communities. There are no accusations of worshipping a false god from the Jews, there are no debates on the identity of the God of Israel between the Christians and the Jewish leaders.

Today we ask “Who is God?”. 2000+ years ago they were asking “Was this man sent by God?”

My advice to you would be to do a great deal of historical research not just regarding the trinity but also the culture and background of the Jews and their customs/traditions. Did worshipping Jesus mean that the Christians believed that Jesus was the God of Israel? 1 Chronicles 29:20 shows us that David was worshipped (bowed down to) along with the God of Israel. Falling down before someone and bowing before them to recognize their authority is worship. Worship is simply showing humility, adoration, and respect and in the Jewish culture it wasn’t unheard of to be used normally. Look up the Jewish word for bow/worship and you’d be surprised to find that people worshipped other people in common settings. How much more so would the Jewish followers of Jesus bow down and worship their divinely chosen king?

Here is a link to an incredible book by a Jewish scholar detailing the historical side of the Trinity.

In case you won’t read the book here’s an interesting tidbit of the intro:

Richard E. Rubenstein takes the reader to the streets of the Roman Empire during the fourth century, when a fateful debate over the divinity of Jesus Christ is being fought. Ruled by a Christian emperor, followers of Jesus no longer fear for the survival of their monotheistic faith. But soon, they break into two camps regarding the direction of their worship: Is Jesus the son of God and therefore not the same as God? Or is Jesus precisely God on earth and therefore equal to Him? The vicious debate is led by two charismatic priests. Arius, an Alexandrian priest and poet, preaches that Jesus, though holy, is less than God. Athanasius, a brilliant and violent bishop, sees any diminution of Jesus’s godhead as the work of the devil. Between them stands Alexander, the powerful Bishop of Alexandria, who must find a resolution that will keep the empire united and the Christian faith alive.

Here is a link to a book by a studying American scholar (going for his Ph.D) who specializes in Religious Studies and the book covers the early history of the church and how the Greeco-Roman world drastically influenced Christianity

In case you say you won’t read the book here’s a good tidbit of the intro:

At a very early stage in Church history, influences from the Greco-Roman world forcefully pressed the traditional God of Judaism through a system of pagan philosophy. The theological battles which followed produced serious problems for Christianity, and imperial edicts made accepting philosophical statements about God a matter of life or death.