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Paul is profound on many levels, once you put the "clobber passages" in their proper context. Paul is not a conservative culture warrior like many Christians make him out to be. In many ways he's the exact opposite. I found David Bentley Hart's New Testament translation very helpful for appreciating Paul.
Actually, there’s no evidence to condemn homosexuality either. I recommend this article.
Best of luck babe. I hope you find it in your heart to accept yourself as god made you. 💛
Those are all legitimate points. It was much better when Frederic Martel (In the Closet of the Vatican) hung out with the Vatican cardinals and the Roman sex workers. He was very compassionate to all of the people involved (and their closets). And since he was a gay atheist he could see many of the subtleties that a straight True Believer would miss (such as a particularly loving long-term relationship between two Curia cardinals, the existence of which was common knowledge to everyone in the Vatican).
But yeah, to the Pillar folks we're all deviants who need to be kept away from children.
I would refer you to C.S. Lewis's commentary on the Bible as a fairy tail. He started out as an atheist that studied ancient literature and it led him to reexamine the Bible. What he discovered is that it lacks most of the elements of written fairy-tales of its day and includes a large number of unnecessary small details of the sort that would not be found in fiction until the mid 19th century. Try listening to or reading God in the Dock.
If it makes you feel any better, you're also not wrong about how some churches feed on people. Christians are not perfect people and church leaders are no exception. If you look at a church with the goal of finding hypocrites, you will always be successful.
I tend to recommend Outside the Lines: How Embracing Queerness will Transform Your Faith by Mihee Kim-Kort.
It's an excellent book: for me, queerness and Christ-following go hand in hand: I'd argue that the gospel itself is profoundly queer, in the way that it upends, challenges, and re-imagines existing social categories and binaries.
Do we even know what Pelagius taught except through his critics? They are hardly an unbiased source.
I reject the concept of original sin. It is toxic. People sin through their actions, not inherited from someone else.
I recommend:
A Better Atonement: Beyond the Depraved Doctrine of Original Sin
by Tony Jones
https://www.amazon.com/Better-Atonement-Depraved-Doctrine-Original-ebook/dp/B007MD0AK8
This book is worth the read: https://www.amazon.com/God-Gay-Christian-Biblical-Relationships/dp/160142518X
From what I've seen, many who still affirm the Bible's validity and affirm a gay lifestyle denounce the clobber passages as mistranslated and not referring to the kind of gay relationships we see today (monogamous, committed, loving). Most argue Biblical passages are referring to pedophilia, rape, and hyper sexual (guys would have sex with other guys out of extreme lust outside marriage) relationships.
I saw a webinar with Fr. James Martin recently and am now reading his book, Building a Bridge.
As a Catholic, I feel renewed and refreshed to hear someone in the church's power structure talking about these issues and advocating that LGBTQ+ people deserve compassion.
Google Play link here.
For those who haven't been following this app, it's a Bible app for progressive Christians. It has tons of devotionals for LGBTQ folks, racial minorities and progressive Christians in general. They're launching this weekend at the GCN Conference and Creating Change Conference.
I had used the Beta, and this release is much better. There are still a few bugs, but hopefully that doesn't affect your experience too much.
Yeah, that's fair. Here's the book CenterPeace recommends for parents:
https://www.amazon.com/Embracing-Journey-Christian-Parents-Blueprint/dp/1501195689
If you have the time you should read this book called God and the Gay Christian, by Matthew Vines.
It's full of gay-affirming arguments and most of them are based on scripture or interpretations of it. Wish I'd known about it when I was figuring everything out!
https://smile.amazon.com/dp/188636009X/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_fab_RexDFbSCQJBM5
For yourself start on the first link...
For science see about this guy's books and articles...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_LeVay#Queer_Science
More questions... dm... :)
Not Orthodox here nor educated at all about Orthodox engagements with affirming sexuality, but I’ve heard good things about the book, <em>For I Am Wonderfully Made: Texts on Eastern Orthodoxy and LGBT Inclusion</em>, and there’s also Orthodoxandgay.com
He’s a conservative, and you’ll read explicitly anti-gay stuff in that book. Another prolific and brilliant Anglican is Rowan Williams. I much more recommend his <em>Being Christian</em> instead.
No, sorry. This Keith Sharpe - The Gay Gospels
Are you talking about this? Gay gospel
Because that's an anti gay book... The author is an advocate for conversion therapy 💀
I really love this suggestion. If I would’ve kept writing, I would’ve said the same thing. And these are really good suggestions! Gay literature has really helped me connect to my community and to its history.
Other books OP might like:
<em>Maurice</em> by EM Forster.
<em>Lie With Me</em> by Philippe Besson.
One of my seminary professors wrote a whole book about the queer, gender-transgressive Christ.
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Radical Love: Introduction to Queer Theology - Rev. Dr. Patrick S. Cheng
https://www.amazon.com/Radical-Love-Introduction-Queer-Theology/dp/1596271329/
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From Sin to Amazing Grace: Discovering the Queer Christ - Rev. Dr. Patrick S. Cheng
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1596272384/
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The closet is like a foxhole or trench in warfare. A place of both relative safety and also of fear. A wall between you and those who would cause you harm, but also a trap that limits your life.
And... there are few atheists in foxholes, except those who can't believe God would permit that kind of horror.
Someday, it will be safe for you to come out all the way. This is only a temporary state, and I'm so glad that you know that God is with you there!
When you're ready and safe to step out, I suggest reading Chris Glasser's book Coming Out as Sacrament
https://www.amazon.com/Coming-Out-Sacrament-Chris-Glaser/dp/0664257488/
Just the beginning of positive queer theology.
I was raised in an intense Church of Christ family, and most of my 14 aunts and 14 uncles and hundreds of cousins were Assembly of God. I remember very well being in your shoes, and at that jumping off point with my family. However it turns out with them you will be gaining the advantage of being true to yourself, and true in life. It is demoralizing in ways you cannot see to live double lives, and the energy that will come back to you when you are fully yourself in your present is simply unbelievable.
I'm a snowy white haired old man now, and have lived a good long life as a gay man. I had one partner for 16 years, one for 8, and my current partner and husband for 23. All Christians. All monogamous. Don't ever let anyone tell you that you can't live a life of faith and be gay at the same time. That's baloney!
I want to point out one book you might find very interesting. It was written by an Assembly of God minister and worship leader who came out of the closet at exactly your point in his life. It is one of the most loving and human books I have read, and it made me laugh from the first chapter until the end. You might give it a look see:
We are rooting for you boyo!
Are you familiar with Rev. Dr. Patrick Cheng?
His books are a great resource for queer pastors and preachers, and accessible.
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Radical Love: Introduction to Queer Theology - Rev. Dr. Patrick S. Cheng
https://www.amazon.com/Radical-Love-Introduction-Queer-Theology/dp/1596271329/
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From Sin to Amazing Grace: Discovering the Queer Christ - Rev. Dr. Patrick S. Cheng
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1596272384/
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Coming out is an extremely personal decision, and without knowing you, her, and your church community i couldn't hope to guide you with specifics. However, coming out is also a sacramental act, where you remove a barrier between yourself and others. This makes you vulnerable to their reaction. If they are loving, you can receive that love on a new level, but if they are hateful, you will also receive that hate on a new level.
Theologically and intellectually, I do firmly believe that coming out and being out are superior in the long run, as the removal of any lie is an opportunity to heal the world just a little bit.
Emotionally, psychologically, and practically... it can often be dangerous, and you need to be prepared to withstand the negative consequences of that vulnerability. Or, to be honest with yourself that you aren't prepared to do so, and work toward being safe and secure enough to come out later.
One resource i recommend for coming out is Rev. Dr. Chris Glasser's book "coming out as sacrament".
Another is Dr. Jack Rogers' book debunking the "cobber passages" so often used to attack us and condemn our love and "calling good evil, and evil good".
Jesus, the Bible, and Homosexuality, Revised and Expanded Edition: Explode the Myths, Heal the Church - Dr. Jack Rogers
https://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Bible-Homosexuality-Revised-Expanded/dp/066423397X/
Coming Out as Sacrament Paperback - Chris Glaser
https://www.amazon.com/Coming-Out-Sacrament-Chris-Glaser/dp/0664257488/
I got this shirt from Amazon to wear at Pride this year, while I volunteered with the Reconciling Ministries Network (UMC). It has the Progress Pride Flag and says "God's love is fully inclusive."
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09QJZVNKQ?ref_=cm_sw_r_cp_ud_dp_H4PNQKSWKE8GTKZY8ZNA
Start by making sure you are safe; physically, emotionally, and spiritually.
No homophobic person can help you understand your sexuality or gender identity, they've already decided evil and untrue things about all but one option.
I suggest starting with reading about queer theology and modern psychology around the queer experience. Here's a good place to start, one that helped me a lot, though it is within a protestant worldview not a Catholic one:
https://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Bible-Homosexuality-Revised-Expanded/dp/066423397X/
I strongly suggest that you try to connect to the https://www.dignityusa.org/ Catholic LGBTQ organization for Catholic-specific spiritual support and resources.
Richard and David Coles were both reverends.
r/OpenChristian has a fantastic resource sticky at the top of the sub with several books and other resources. Definitely recommend perusing that.
While not specific to LGBT+ issues, John J. Collins' book <em>What Are Biblical Values?</em> has a really balanced and thoughtful approach that I would recommend especially if you're interested in something that is a little more "two-sided" - he really refuses to actually assert a particular answer and is more focused on the process.
It's a really tricky subject, this, and one that can have polarising answers on either side of the debate. I think you've handled it well, and I agree with what you've said. If you haven't already read it, I'd recommend 'God and the Gay Christian' by Matthew Vines, which I found to be incredibly helpful.
> I am German so I really think this is artifically constructed nonsense. Gender was never used that way. Gender is biological, not a social construct.
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/ambiguous-genitalia/basics/definition/con-20026345
I just posted a link to a great book I just read called "the children are free" it does a great job of breaking down the clobber passages, as well as addresses the legalism the church uses to condemn queet folks The Children are free - amazon
We're programed to think a certain way, and being gay or LGBT, is directly contra to that. Our very existence is a biblical anomaly. We know who we are. We know we are not bad, wicked people. Some of use are even way better people than regular Christians. But the Christian population at large does not know that. They think of gay people as ideas and things to be debated upon. They don't realize that behind their discussions, they are talking about real people--good people.
What makes being a gay Christian hard is that we are deprograming. We have to unlearn everything we have been taught and find a new way to live. Yes, you are going to feel guilt over having same sex feelings. It is only natural.
I have no shame in being gay, and I don't think God is going to damn me for something that is outside my control.
To quote the iconic Wanda Maximoff, "I can't control their fear, only my own!"
Educate yourself about same sex relations and what the Bible says. This is a great start. You are not a bad person. You are only feeling what every person on this planet feels. Try to do good. I don't think God hates gays. There's just no way.
Gay Christian guy here. When I was about your age, I confided in my girlfriend that I might be bi. She responded very lovingly and then later gave me a book about gay Christians for me to read.
At the time, I was angry with her. She was way more liberal than I was; I’d grown up in a conservative evangelical home and believed being gay was a sin. But I did eventually read the book and slowly started rethinking a lot that I thought I knew. In the end, it was an important turning point for me, and she and I are still friends to this day.
For what it’s worth, I did later on write a book for Christians from backgrounds like mine, called Torn. It might be helpful to him if he’s from that sort of background. There are also a bunch of videos and articles on my YouTube channel and website (check my profile).
Most of all, just be patient with him. It can the time to work through these things.
Let me know if I can be helpful to you!
There's a new one out cowritten by a bi and trans person: Queers the Word: a 40 Day Devotional for LGBTQ+ Christians. IT's at https://www.amazon.com/Queers-Word-Devotional-LGBTQ-Christians/dp/B08NF1QTND/
I would be pretty cautious if I were you, but one I've heard of is Gay Girl, Good God by Jackie Hill Perry. But again, this is dangerous territory so proceed with caution.
Commenting to add that I have read Rosaria Butterfield’s The Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert but found it to be rather weak as far as arguments go, and I was kind of disappointed with it.
If you can take a look at this book: https://www.amazon.com/Boy-Erased-Memoir-Identity-Family/dp/0735213461/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=boy+erased&qid=1605794579&sr=8-2
or give it to your parents, it describes one guy's experience with conversation therapy, and his relationship with his parents.
It's also a film available on prime https://www.amazon.com/Boy-Erased-Lucas-Hedges/dp/B07JZN8NW8/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=boy+erased&qid=1605794579&sr=8-1
From your comments in this thread it is not clear that you have given sufficient time and energy to properly looking at either the biblical exegesis, the hermeneutical questions that the exegesis raises or the history of the relationship of the church with the LGBT community. If you go away and take a detailed look at these two books then I might consider engaging in a discussion with you. The books are: Kathy Baldock’s book Walking the Bridgeless Canyon which will give you a good understanding of the history and James Brownson’s The bible, gender and sexuality
My reaction seeing the post you quote is really to ignore it, simply because it appears to be a knowledgeable quote, but from a scholarly perspective there are some very basic problems. Whoever is writing it has made no traceable reference to their sources, i'm guessing they are not sharing research they have done, but whose is it, what is their academic background and so on and so on.
When was this work done, I generally try to stick to the rule that scholarly work older than ten years needs at the very least to be read through the lens of more recent work.
The problem with all this stuff on both sides of the argument is that people tend to make very certain pronouncements, but don't then back them up. Which can make all of us who are just trying to find our way very confused.
The truth is we are in an area where the theology is hard, and the bible is not clear no matter how much anyone says it is.
But I know that God loves me, I have seen him work in my life, I have seen him use me in all sorts of different ways in ministry. He is my constant companion, my passion, my joy, my lover. And in the end I my theology has to be informed by my experience of God. Evagrius says "If you are a theologian, you will pray truly. And if you pray truly, you are a theologian." We cannot separate our theology from our experience of God.
My other recommendation is not to expect to get satisfactory answers from here, rather you in the end are going to need to do some deeper reading, a good starting point if you have not already done it is to read a book like James Brownson's Bible, Gender and Sexuality
But know that God loves you, allow your knowledge of him and his love for you to help you filter what others say.
and in terms of a book to read alongside it then Chris Webb's "Fire of the Word" is I think a good one to start with, he not only enthuses about the biblical text but also gives lots of pointers to different ways of approaching it
Thanks for sharing, your thoughts and concerns are valid and they really do help others who read them ❤️I (25f) just came out to my husband as a lesbian and everything in our 5 year relationship finally makes sense. I realized that, by not accepting that part of me, I not only hurt myself but him and both of our families (with whom we are very close) as well by our sexual frustrations. Now I am faced with the probability of divorce AND homosexuality (double whammy... especially to my very Christian family...) but I truly believe that God hates hurt more than he is concerned with legalistic devotion.
Now that I’m finally free from constantly retraining myself to enjoy physical connection with my husband, I have much more time to serve God to my greatest capacity 🥰 I still struggle with these thoughts and I am TERRIFIED to tell anyone but I know it will be better in the long run.
Here’s a book I recently started that I think will help: God Believes in Love: Straight... https://www.amazon.com/dp/0307948099?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share
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Apologies, freaking autocorrected the author name from Hanne to Hanna because you know.... autocorrect stinks on ice!
Tattooed and Chained Chainmaille
She also has a store on Etsy if you’d prefer to shop there instead of Amazon. My boyfriend has the bisexual pride one.
There’s a book I just found out about called “Unashamed,” I haven’t read it but it might be worth your time it’s about this topic specifically
Here’s a link
But since you’re coming out tommorow it might be to late to order it. Still coming out is a long process (after 12 years maybe I’m still doing it!)and whatever you can read to help you can be of use.
As per the event itself what can I say?
Be strong and pray, God is with you in this we are to worship him in spirit and in truth and God wants us to live in our truth.
So live and be true to yourself and may your Dad hear the voice of the Holy Spirit through your words
God bless
I’m glad you benefited from this post! I’d definitely recommend the FAQs and Sidebar resources in /r/OpenChristian and /r/TransChristianity, if you’re looking for more resources. I love Austen Hartke (ftm) on YouTube and elsewhere if you don’t already know him, and his book, Transforming is really one of a kind.
Some good info posted by others. A book I found helpful was "The Good Book" by Peter Gomes. http://www.amazon.com/The-Good-Book-Reading-Bible/dp/0060088303
Not knowing anything about you or your family, my advice would be to be confident in yourself, gracious with your father even though he may not extend the same to you, and to have some good and trusted people that you can go to for support if the conversation upsets you.
It was a shock for my family, but we ultimately had a very good conversation and they were receptive of me. It set all of us off on a journey to find out what mattered to us as a family, and what was true and good about the faith tradition we were operating within.