What is Reddit's opinion of
Devuan?
From 3.5 billion Reddit comments
➔ Devuan website
By popularity on Reddit, this Service is:
56 reviews of this app found across Reddit:
You can use:
- sysvinit
- openrc
- runit
- sinit
Source: https://devuan.org/os/init-freedom/
EDIT: There is a contradiction in the link above between the sections "GNU/Linux Distributions without systemd" and "Alternative Init Systems." I'm not sure which one is correct.
Devuan is here...
No need to use systemd if you don't want to...
http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page#GNU.2FLinux_distributions
I do worry that the future is currently being determined by Red Hat, who are becoming more like Microsoft and Google by the day.
I wonder how long distros like Devuan can struggle on for...
It's such a shame that we're seeing this lack of diversity, with the big three all moving to systemd and Gnome3...
If only Debian or Ubuntu hadn't bought into it...
It seems to me that Red Hat are slowly empire building, and will eventually create a walled-garden.
Like most big IT, they'll make it cheap to get into, but almost impossible to escape.
It seems like it would be a lot of hassle to replace systemd. Why not just run a distro without it?
I'm using Devuan on a netbook and on my home media server and it works very well. SysVinit is the default on Devuan.
Void Linux uses runit by default - and it's a really nice distro with a helpful community.
I am glad that there is Devuan, because now people who are dissatisfied with systemd have an alternative. However, since I am satisfied with systemd except for a few corners and edges, I might not have the big overview. But the following questions arise to me at Devuan.
- https://www.debian.org/security/ has some entries for the current month. https://devuan.org/os/security/ not a single one. Why?
- The team (https://devuan.org/os/team/) is quite small. Some of these persons are probably no longer active. Is it therefore possible to publish Devuan ASCII by 2020?
- Why is the team so small, although some people always claim that a large part of the users / admins find systemd bad?
- Why was it absolutely necessary to create a new distribution and not, for example, a package source that frees the respective packages from systemd? As far as I know, Debian can still be used with an alternative to systemd.
- Why don't I know one case in my circle of friends and acquaintances (many technically savvy people, some of whom don't consider the holy grail systemd) where they switched to Devuan?
- Etc.
So I think Devuan is kind of a waste of time. But not because of the project itself, but because of its realization.
>I just posted links, don't be mad bro.
It is not personally against you. It is just that anytime systemd is mentioned, someone, somewhere feels the need to rehash the same old, unsubstantiated anti-systemd crap.
No systemd user is listening, nor willing to listen any longer. Linux is a systemd world now. Deal with it!
Go to https://devuan.org/ and be happy.
Not that I know of. I've been interested in Devuan linux lately. It's basically Debian without systemd.
I think they need a lot more support, honestly.
As for command like ip, those have been around for over 10 years. And guess what? ifconfig is still here because it still makes sense in 99.9% of usage cases. Not to mention the fact ip's output is ugly and a jumbled unreadable mess. ifconfig isn't going anywhere. They can yammer about ip all they want and claim new for the sake of new all god damned day. Fuck em.
I would not recommend you Devuan, not at least until they are deciding on which init system they'll stick on.
Devuan in its actual state is just an on-a-death-row distribution. Even though I really don't want that.
We're in the process of phasing out debian and RHEL at my office.
It's slow, but we should be finishing up sometime this quarter. The look on our RH rep's face was more depressing than funny though.
We've also been experimenting with Devuan, but have long-term concerns about packages breaking due to the package developers expecting systemd to be in place. ( the devuan team can't fork everything, and package support may eventually diverge. )
My only real concern is that Redhat supplies a LOT of funding and code changes to other projects, and having them lose enterprise market share is going to cut into that.
Unfortunately, redhat's choice to use systemd also means that a few of the projects we were relying on started having scraps of linux-only code in them to take advantage of it.
So it's a catch 22.
If we switch from linux, we can't run service $X but if we stick with it, then service $X has less reason to support non-systemd systems.
My Beowulf beta virtual machine (VMware) upgraded with no problems; automatically changing release from 'testing' to 'stable'.
My ASCII boxes upgraded fine for the most part. The headless server upgraded flawlessly. I needed to remove a version of libpolkit or something on a box running XFCE and I still have an old netbook, which runs i3 upgrading.
Obviously check the instructions before upgrading! https://devuan.org/os/documentation/dev1fanboy/en/upgrade-to-beowulf
Beowulf seems like a solid release, and I would definitely recommend it to anybody who is looking to run a stable distro without systemd; and who doesn't care about having the latest packages.
Well done Devuan devs!
Hmm, in your first post you just wrote that Stretch has too old software for you, you didn't indicate that you want OpenRC on top of Debian.
Doesn't Devuan use sysvinit (like Debian) and upstart? https://devuan.org/os/packages/init indicates this. Their FAQ also say they are using sysvinit.
BTW, it seems there's a wiki page on "OpenRC on Debian". But I'd suggest against this, the last commit in the linked git tree is from Jan 28 16:01:38 2014, so it's abandonware.
Given that systemd runs so nicely it will also probably be hard to find people that work with you together on OpenRC-on-Debian, should you ever want this.
I thought Devuan lets you pick between openrc, runit, and sinit too besides just sysvinit? "...offers openrc, runit, sinit"
Also I think openrc was designed to be run alongside sysvinit as well. In Gentoo, openrc is started by sysvinit. (although I also think it can be run without another init system, but not by default in Gentoo at least)
Actually have an interesting development/packaging workflow.
Does this basically mean devs have soource-only uploads? People have wanted that in Debian proper for a long time.
Granted, not a T41, but a T43 here... But, installed Devuan (32 bits, of course) without any problem, a CLI only machine.
Planning on wiping and installing Debian Buster on it, just to play a bit around with it.
Al fin los impuestos sirven para algo! ;)
Si querés algo más liviano todavía que XFCE (y Manjaro) fijate en Devuan, si tenés ganas. No tiene systemd.
Estuve probando en una máquina del año del jopo, con una instalación mínima, en un LVM encriptado con Openbox, sin GDM, apenas booteada, con X y Openbox corriendo, usa unos 60 MB de RAM.
I highly doubt they haven't tried - a lot of the contributions would involve modifying upstream software solely for the sake of not depending on systemd (leading to a need of it to be installed regardless of what is used as init) and I can see why Debian wouldn't give a fuck about those (since....even with systemd installed it's still possible to use another init at the end of the day, whereas devuan wants systemd not only be left unused as init, but also gone)
It is possible to install Debian without systemd, though some packages and DEs won't work correctly without it. You might be better off with the systemd-free fork of Debian called Devuan. I haven't used it personally, but a bunch of the Debian devs basically created it due to the decision to switch to systemd. It's very very close to standard Debian, but with a traditional init system.
Another option for a systemd-free Linux is Devuan, a sort-of plain vanilla Debian, but without systemd. I'm currently testing the 32 bits version on Thinkpad T60p, seems pretty snappy.
You want Devuan, not Debian, if you want a Debian-like system with GNOME without Systemd. It was a fork made when the Debian maintainers decided not to go to the extra work of trying to package GNOME without depending on systemd. Of course, it has a much smaller community and isn't going to be as up to date, but it lets you avoid systemd.
Or you could just use systemd, which is a perfectly reasonable init system and provides a number of other components that work well together to provide a more integrated base for a GNU/Linux desktop system.
SysVinit was usually the init system used.
Install something like Devuan in order to have a go at using it.
As for 'why change to systemd?'... it's a controversial question. If you ask me, I'd say the change was largely political. It seems to me that Red Hat are trying to create a more homogeneous Linux, more like OSX or Windows. As such, systemd is designed to be installed as a giant spider's-web of dependencies. You can't simply use it as an init system without installing it's various replacements for older tools.
It's pure speculation, but I have an inkling that, once systemd penetration is high enough, they will change the licence for RHEL, or possibly just the systemd component. This one reason I support distros like Gentoo, Devuan and Void. I want to be able to choose every component of my system, rather than have a suite of tools, none of which can be individually replaced without great effort (or at all).
If you want a desktop distro sans systemd, try Devuan. I'm using it with the default DE of XFCE in a VM and it's flawless so far.
My advice is to stay on Devuan Jessie for now...
> Not willing to fork anything
Maybe you haven't been following this as closely as you might like to think. There is a massive effort underway to fork all of Debian and make a systemd free distro. I have been using this on all my machines now for over a year. The distro is called devuan and is now in the 1.0 beta phase. It's available here: https://devuan.org/
Well systemd haters have options, one of them being this. Then, we have jokers like this guy and it shows the real problem: Free and OpenSource software doesn't mean that someone else is supposed to scratch YOUR itches, but mainly when people share the same itches, yours get scratched as well in the process. If your facing individual itches, you have to do something about it yourself.
It always amuses me when people in situations like this start to feel entitled - kinda like those Facebook users complaining about the lake of privacy. That is indeed, very difficult to understand.
> What distributions are left to reasonably avoid systemd well into the future?
For the time being you can still switch back to sysv-init in Debian. You also might want to follow Devuan's progress.
> Edit: Why is a simple question going controversial?
Because the Borg doesn't look kindly to people who don't fanatically love systemd.
Work's for me.
$ http GET https://devuan.org/ --headers HTTP/1.1 200 OK Connection: keep-alive Content-Encoding: gzip Content-Type: text/html Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2015 17:39:13 GMT Last-Modified: Thu, 02 Apr 2015 07:33:32 GMT Server: nginx/1.6.2 Transfer-Encoding: chunked
edit: formatting
But have you monitored what URLs does it connect to?
It does not have a midori://flags website, either, so I do not really trust it.
I do however trust Otter Browser -- but the AppImage complains I do not have OpenSSL, while my version of the openbsd package (Devuan) is 1.1.1d.
You have been systemD'ed, get a cool and real init system, https://devuan.org/os/init-freedom
Not some hydra themed init system that shatters reality and expects everything of you. Nobody signed up to sacrifice their first born or giving birth or an invisible mistress with none of the love that comes with it.
No it is exactly like debian, you can change it. The usual way is to just change the source.list file. In debian if you wanted to go to unstable all you would have to do is change the word "buster" to "sid" or the word "stable" to "unstable". In devuan you change "Beowulf" to "Chimaera". Here is my reference:
There is a version of debian without systemd called devuan linux. It uses openRC instead. You can find it here: https://devuan.org/ It is literally just debian with openRC instead of systemd. I don't know about your gaming needs, but i guess if it can be done on debian, it can be done in devuan.
Devuan. I just saw a video on the new release last night. It's Debian based and does not use systemd. It doesn't have a minimal install I don't think.
EDIT: It does have a minimal install called Netinstall. It's around 300MB.
One thing you could do is remove systemd and replace it with OpenRC or sysvinit since you're not using GNOME and as such don't require systemd as a dependency.
Edit: I'd recommend using Devuan instead of Debian, however.
You can check this guide: https://devuan.org/os/documentation/dev1fanboy/minimal-xorg-install
After that you can install the basic tools for any desktop environment, like for example the Mate desktop recommends the following command for installing a minimal desktop:
sudo apt-get install mate-desktop-environment-core
Nunca me aconteceu nada de estranho com distribuições baseadas no Debian (até mesmo com o próprio Debian, que é o que eu praticamente uso hoje em dia.), nem no meu micro principal e nem no laptop que meu pai me emprestou.
Creio que seja alguma coisa envolvendo firmwares, e recomendo que teste outras distribuições para ver se resolve seu problema.
Tente usar o Deepin ou o Q4OS (são duas distribuições muito boas para iniciantes, e a segunda eu boto a mão no fogo que é a melhor pois me atendeu muito bem pelos 2 meses que eu precisei usá-la), veja se os problemas permanecem ou não.
> If there is actually a community which has a desire for something else they would just create their own distribution like it has been done many times.
Embrace udev, extend it to be part of systemd, extinguish libudev. Thankfully there are alternative udevs, outside systemd
For my part I have the T530 and use Devuan!.
I have some objection for you:
first systemd is evil, complex and probably full of bug, systemd is the svhost of linux it has been pushed by big american company for surveillance, you should avoid to use systemd http://www.softpanorama.org/Commercial_linuxes/Startup_and_shutdown/systemd.shtml https://nosystemd.org/
Firefox is also an infiltrated project by imperialist and big company, making firefox shit so google chrome take their users, please look at IceCat or others firefox fork (like palemoon etc etc but i'm not updated on this question)
iphone is shit, and librem and others "privacy" project I know they will fail, since i'm a kid i have only saw project wanting to be the next big stuff in privacy failing, please do not waste your time with those fake privacy project librem and pineapple, if you are american or european just get a Huawei and install a custom rom
whatshapp is shit
tutanota is hosted in germany if I'm not wrong and germany have big big intelligence agency, if you are american this mail service is way better than many others but yeah..
camp 3 - people who don't like to have anything shoved down their throats.
​
>While Debian claims that “Systemd is becoming the de facto standard init system for Linux”, a number of GNU/Linux distributions, some new, beg to differ. While Debian claims that “It is better than existing alternatives for all of Debian’s current use cases”, these rebel GNU/Linux distributions refuse this one-size-fits-all vision of the *nix world that breaks portability, ignores backwards compatibility, and replaces existing services, forcing systemd into adoption.
Init Freedom is about restoring a sane approach to PID1
, one that respects diversity and freedom of choice.
>While Debian claims that “Systemd is becoming the de facto standard init system for Linux”, a number of GNU/Linux distributions, some new, beg to differ. While Debian claims that “It is better than existing alternatives for all of Debian’s current use cases”, these rebel GNU/Linux distributions refuse this one-size-fits-all vision of the *nix world that breaks portability, ignores backwards compatibility, and replaces existing services, forcing systemd into adoption.
>
>Init Freedom is about restoring a sane approach to PID1
, one that respects diversity and freedom of choice.
Unlike systemd, the OpenRC, Runit and other init systems actually works. ;)
I know that some obviously likes systemd, I don't. I don't like the non-UNIX philosophy, I don't like silly things as binary logs and I don't like the fact that is has been unreliable for me over the years.
I have really tried to like it and I still have one machine with systemd, but it's getting replaced soon as well.
Some reading:
Off the top of my head you can try https://devuan.org/ and
watch -n.1 "cat /proc/cpuinfo | grep 'MHz'"
in a terminal for the simplest means of testing. But, I'll have to look for more appropriate tools for charting.
I never tried to do that but a quick search yielded this guide: https://devuan.org/os/documentation/dev1fanboy/migrate-to-ascii
(I wouldn't try to do that without complete and verified backups of course)
Devuan's netinst:
>netinst: All-purpose installer preferred by more experienced users for servers, minimal systems and choice of several Desktop Environments (DEs). All but the core components are downloaded during the installation process.
source: devuan.org
my understanding is that all the largest distros use systemd by default. the largest distro I know that still uses ... whatever the other thing is, init scripts... is devuan https://devuan.org/. also slackware
When systemd was announced it was a very controversial piece of software, and especially in Debian the decision to adopt systemd was not without critics. But then at some point a lot of distributions switched to systemd. Arch, Debian, Ubuntu etc.
Some debian people then even forked debian as devuan, debian without systemd.
If you're after something seriously lightweight, then you should check out Alpine Linux.
Personally I run Raspbian on my RPi, and Ubuntu Server on my rented server. If I were to rebuild them, I'd probably choose something different - probably Devuan for the Raspberry Pi at least - not sure on the server just yet.
The problem now is, OpenRC or sysVinit or runit has it tough to work with most packages. Example : Gnome 3 - strongly tied to systemd. Even Devuan Ascii, has to use libsystemd0 to mitigate, so as other init will work. The biggest failure is, a large project like Debian, which advocates all those freedom and choices (dfsg), suspiciously voted up systemd! Some of us wants init to be simple; including desktop users. You don't need to attack us for our choice.(systemd as a dependency is surely a big attack). The parallel initiation is possible with openRC. So, the so called parallel startup of services is not alone possible with systemd. OpenRC also does not disturb the classic sysV style init unlike systemd. Leave the conspiracy theories. Developers themselves have complained about the introduced complexity of systemd. Why the systemd supporters failing to see that alternate init have hard time make to work with most packages after the enforced homologation of Linux distros through systemd incorporation. Projects like Devuan, even after 4-5 years cannot really create a clean init setup without rebuilding many packages. Lack of volunteers not withstanding. Init freedom
Try Devuan, if you want to.
Debian without systemd. I'm currently using it on two TPs, a T60 and a T43. The T60 has XFCE, and the T43 nothing, plain CLI; RAM usage on the T43 right after booting is 24 MB, and on the T60 about 170 MB.
I really don't see them doing this. It really isn't in the spirit of Linux Mint where things are just intended to work and be a better alternative to Windows. Most converts don't want to, for example, re-encode their entire media libraries to non proprietary formats. Personally I don't have a problem with systemd. If you are that opposed to it there is always https://devuan.org/.
If you are so angry about systemd FUD just go to devuan. If you want to get highly charged about a piece of open source software then somehow compare it to Apple and Microsoft, then call someone "culty" and comparing them to a Scientology member, then you don't get to be choosy.
Especially considering you admit you aren't "any kind of proper Linux geek" then rag on distro makers for choosing something "wrong". When you make your own distro you can be as picky as you want, until then you choose from what others have decided to offer you.
>Question: What's up with dislike towards AMD in laptops
In the past AMD had horrible drivers for Linux (and the open source ones weren't to stellar either). This has changed considerably in the last couple of years but bad PR has a tendency to stick around for a very long time, the RX460 is a GCN card so it shouldn't be an issue.
>Question: Will linux be able to run fine? Planning to use https://devuan.org/ on next machine. Will gaming be fine? Doing mostly Eve/TF2 rn...
The laptop should run Linux fine, I hope though you know how to run Debian/Devuan, it's not a difficult/advanced user distro but it isn't beginner friendly or easy either (bit in the middle). Games tend to run fine on any Linux distro, just depends on how much the user has to configure for optimal performance.
I tried Devuan for a while and it seems rather neat, but the mirrors are slow since it is still in development and they have a different setup for mirrors I didn't quite understand. Also I couldn't get wifi working on my new laptop due to realtek drivers that I only figured out about later after I installed Arch over Devuan. I am hoping it gains more popularity, especially since I think it is important to have options for an init system.
I've with you, totally shocked Debian not only brought this piece of junk in but forced it as "the" init!
Very sad, Debian fan for many years. Typical practice for "real" Debian would be support both, let User choose.
Time to look at Devuan: https://devuan.org/
> Chi da contro systemd è perché non ha mai dovuto scriversi un init script con SysVinit o anche solo upstart probabilmente.
Questo mi sembra un po' riduttivo. Tutti i tizi dietro a questo secondo te non hanno mai scritto un init script?
I see I worded my post poorly. I meant that he seems to know what he's talking about, so after seeing that video I stopped recommending it.
As for Stallman, he says, >I do not have a preferred GNU/Linux distro. I recommend all the ethical distros — namely, those that are 100% free software.
>I've chosen not to have any preferences among those ethical distros. But I am not in a position to judge them on other criteria: even to try them all would be a lot work that I have no need to do.
https://www.gnu.org/distros/common-distros.en.html has a list of distributions they specifically don't endorse and why. At the top there's a link to a page of a few they do recommend. Most unrecommendations seem to do with a distro including or providing the option to use proprietary software. Debian is in that category.
Separately, Debian is going to be switching to systemd. Devuan was created in response to that - Debian without systemd. Dunno how good that project is/will be, though. The arguments I've seen against systemd seem to be mostly around the init system creating too many dependencies. Don't really know enough about it to make any arguments myself.
I'm not aware of any other problems. I wouldn't say "screwed" but, "could be a little better."
That would be Devuan. For those who would like to run a Debian system without systemd as a dependency for many or most system and/or desktop related packages I personally believe it will be a good choice.
It's currently in Alpha 2, but it can be downloaded here.
Other distros worth mentioning are available here