What is Reddit's opinion of
Threes!?
From 3.5 billion Reddit comments
65 reviews of this app found across Reddit:
I feel like 2048 was one of the most tragic things that happened in gaming recently. Threes cost money, but 2048 was free, and thus more people downloaded it. Friends would then see their friends play 2048, and since it was free to acquire, the cycle of growth and popularity would continue.
With that said, how will future games you create be monetized? Also, why do you feel people today see up-front costs as such a overwhelming barrier when mobile games are often cheaper than a cup of coffee?
EDIT: I say it's tragic because that's the feeling I got when I read the original blog post by the creators of Threes as well as some news articles.
- Letter to the Rip-Offs: http://asherv.com/threes/threemails/#letter
- Threes vs. 2048: When rip-offs do better than the original game: http://venturebeat.com/2014/03/30/threes-vs-2048-when-rip-offs-do-better-than-the-original-game/
- Design Is Why 2048 Sucks, and Threes Is a Masterpiece: http://www.wired.com/2014/05/threes-game-design/
Basically, Threes got accused of being the rip-off even though it was the original, and it was very stressful and sad for the creators. It took them over a year to design Threes, but the clones only took a handful of days.
http://asherv.com/threes/threemails/
> But why is Threes better? It’s better for us, for our goals. 2048 is a broken game. Something we noticed about this kind of system early on (that you'll see hidden in the emails below). We wanted players to be able to play Threes over many months, if not years. We both beat 2048 on our first tries. We’d wager most people that have been able to score a 768 or even a 384 in Threes would be able to do the same using the fabled “corner strategy”. You probably could too! Just try tapping “up” then “right” in alternating order until you can’t move. Then press left. You may not get to a 2048, but you might just see your highest score ever.
> When an automated script that alternates pressing up and right and left every hundreth time can beat the game, then well, that's broken. Is Threes a better game? We think so. To this day, only about 6 people in the world have ever seen a 6144 and nobody in the world has yet to “beat” Threes. But that’s what’s better to us as game designers. We worked really hard to create a simple game system with interesting complexity that you can play forever. You know, “simple to learn, impossible to master”. That old chess-nut…
tl:dr, the clones of Threes are broken.
I know you are making a joke, but that is exactly what the author should do next. Not only is it the original, Three's creators actually focused on making the game hard to beat with an algorithm:
> But why is Threes better? It’s better for us, for our goals. 2048 is a broken game. Something we noticed about this kind of system early on (that you'll see hidden in the emails below). We wanted players to be able to play Threes over many months, if not years. We both beat 2048 on our first tries. We’d wager most people that have been able to score a 768 or even a 384 in Threes would be able to do the same using the fabled “corner strategy”. You probably could too! Just try tapping “up” then “right” in alternating order until you can’t move. Then press left. You may not get to a 2048, but you might just see your highest score ever. > > When an automated script that alternates pressing up and right and left every hundreth time can beat the game, then well, that's broken. Is Threes a better game? We think so. To this day, only about 6 people in the world have ever seen a 6144 and nobody in the world has yet to “beat” Threes. But that’s what’s better to us as game designers. We worked really hard to create a simple game system with interesting complexity that you can play forever. You know, “simple to learn, impossible to master”. That old chess-nut…
Yes, because basically they made 2048, realized it was too easy, and tweaked it to perfection. Also the art direction and sound production are unbelievable. Very sad 2048 is trumping it in popularity, though not entirely surprising because people like cheap, easy instant satisfaction
The article unfortunately focuses mostly on the visual design and doesn't touch much on the game design, partly because that's most of what the email thread the developers shared focuses on. That said, there's a big design difference between Threes and 2048. The main difference is a very finely tuned difficulty.
2048 is easier, so it has broader appeal starting out. Threes has a higher skill requirement, so it's a bit easier to get frustrated, but it is also easy to see your skill increasing because the games don't last super long.
Anecdotally it seems like 2048 is possibly more generous in spawning high value tiles, which lowers the difficulty. Also the joining of 1+1 instead of 1+2 has a very significant impact on the gameplay. Threes is more likely to suffocate you with low value tiles because they are harder to mix than in 2048.
Since Threes only moves the tiles one square at a time it takes three swipes to mix tiles on opposite sides of the board instead of one in 2048, meaning that there's no penalty to poor planning resulting in tiles on opposite sides of the board.
I don't know to what degree this counts as game design, but 2048 pops up a timed notification whining when you don't play it for a few days, which was my incentive to immediately delete it.
For me personally, it's my second time. Ridiculous Fishing and then later Threes. In both cases the games were cloned after release. Threes was ripped off quickly because it is a small game with simple rules that can be churned out pretty quickly. That's why we posted The Threemails to show how it took us over a year to figure out those simple rules.
So to answer your question, I wouldn't worry about people stealing your ideas when you talk about them. The cloners are looking at the bottom line only, and stealing ideas that are in development are far too great a risk for them. Not to mention they have no idea how to take a game idea and make it a functioning system that's fun and engaging. That's why they clone. So don't sweat showing off your ideas and your game in broad daylight, the cloners will only come when they smell money in the water.
To reiterate Tagart451, I don't want to shame you or anything, just spread awareness of the problem.
Threes - Rip Offs and The Making of an Original Game
It's sad seeing games that are cloned over a weekend get so much attention when real developers might end up spending over a year creating a game, only to be overshadowed by knock-offs a few weeks later. Maybe give Threes a try. I think it's supposed to be more of a challenge, and support the actual creators/developers.
I think the point was that if you do a mindless alternating pattern without paying attention to what's actually on-screen, you'll often get your highest score. They feel that having to pay attention to the actual game is less broken than the alternative.
Here is the section of their post where they encounter that situation in their game: http://asherv.com/threes/threemails/#adamtext
You are right.
The developers with threes came up with the concept and designed the game mechanics.
They wrote a great article about creating the game and how they feel about all the clones that have popped up.
Or you could support the official release. Read up about how this game is a clone of a clone of an original idea that had been iterated for over a year before it came out to the experience it is today: http://asherv.com/threes/threemails/
Check out this link
http://asherv.com/threes/threemails/
It is very long, but it gives you insight into the incredible thought process that goes into producing a game, even as relatively simple as Threes!.
If you enjoy this game, please check out Threes. 2048 is a poorly done version of Threes, with gameplay that is fundamentally broken. There's very little challenge or strategy. You only play until the board reaches a point where a bad draw can end you.
Threes is a much deeper and more challenging experience. Unfortunately, the lack of depth of 2048 is probably what propelled it to it's popularity, despite it being a lazy version of an already-dismissed design from the Threes team.
Interesting and perhaps relevant. Threes was the origin of all the 1024 and 2048 clones. The developers made a blog post about it, their thoughts on the clones, and what might be learned from the experience, along with some of their design work along the way.
> So the fact that there are algorithms that give you a moderate to high chance of success it is "poorly made"?
Actually, yes. The whole point of game design is to prevent easily discovered tactics that can 'break' a game. On my first play through 2048 I wasn't even paying attention and did decently well which is a sign that the game isn't balanced or tested.
While I don't really want to get into the whole clone thing, it's obvious there was a lot more though put into Threes as evidenced in the design discussion that were posted that took place over a span of months.
It's clear that the 2048 was made by somebody who enjoyed threes/1024 and had coding skill but didn't actually understand the intricacies of the original's design, or possibly game design in general. I would be surprised if the creator spent any time play testing the game with others the way Threes was.
So you spend over a year working on game mechanics and fine tuning the execution and right when you release someone changes some small detail, puts it up on the store as a competitor and that's cool? Legally they might be allowed to do so, but they are definitely what makes the mobile market be potentially so shitty.
This is relevant: http://asherv.com/threes/threemails/
The article doesn't discuss the game that started it all: threes. The creators of threes claim that their game is both more difficult and more interesting than the knock-offs.
I wonder if it is indeed the case, having only played 2048.
This isn't really a clone of a game for iOS. It's a clone of a web game that was inspired by an iOS game that was a shoddy rip-off of another iOS game.
> Just try tapping “up” then “right” in alternating order until you can’t move. Then press left. You may not get to a 2048, but you might just see your highest score ever.
> When an automated script that alternates pressing up and right and left every hundreth time can beat the game, then well, that's broken.
Break it into tiny pieces. The whole mechanic is multiple algorithms and you almost have the right idea.
The part your missing is how one tile sees another tile and an empty tile. The trick is use a multi-dimension array and then recursively have a tile check left then move left or check up then move up, until it hits something then handle the collision. The reason you use a multi-dimension array is now you're only traversing the Row (left/right) or the Column (up/down).
A better exercise to get used to this would be build a tic-tac-toe game with multi-dimension arrays. Then allow any [x][y] size tic-tac-toe board. The "win" condition algorithm for this version of tic-tac-toe will teach you the move algorithm for 2048.
Also here's a cool read about [url=http://asherv.com/threes/threemails/]Threes[/url].
Great write-up.
For indie devs, building followers as you are developing is a potential way to avoid things like the threes situation (instead of people hearing about the clone-of-a-clone of your game first...).
It's "based on 1024 by Veewo Studio and conceptually similar to Threes by Asher Vollmer". Source at the bottom.
Source: Datascope Analytics
If you haven't played Threes yet, you should. It's an awesome little game.
This visualization shows if you are any good at it -- Are you doing better than if you just randomly swiped around?
The developers of Threes! made their development e-mails public, and for a time they were working on how to prevent a single optimal strategy from dominating play. A playtester and fellow developer called it the "PEZ Effect" which allowed players to "work very locally on the puzzle board instead of thinking globally." It's a fascinating read.
Yeah, 1024 and 2048 are the clones. And yes, they are slightly different. In this post Asher and Greg explain the whole thing (the creative process, the iterations, the game design decisions... it's a wonderful read)
Take a look at the mobile game Threes. At it's core, the game could simply be represented by a 4x4 grid of squares with numbers. However, they go the extra mile and give each number a personality. That personality was what attracted my attention. It also gave me a reason to play longer to see all the different types.
On the other hand, while the mechanics appear to be sound, from the gif provided your game doesn't have much, if any, character. It looks like it came straight out of the prototype phase with just enough polish to call it a day. Spend some time fleshing out a theme, really put your heart into it, and the passion will be oozing out of the screenshots. Then all that's left is hoping the theme resonates with others.
I think keeping the idea private until at least you are at alpha is the best course if you think you can profit off the idea.
2048 is a good example of someone taking someone else's idea (threes), changing it slightly, building it quickly and releasing it (i believe it took him a weekend).
http://asherv.com/threes/threemails/ blog post on it from a developer of three's.
I don't think the kid who built 2048 really did it maliciously. Riffing and building on others ideas/concepts is one of the major cornerstone's of modern technology.
> WTF is Threes?
The original and better version of the game. This is an amazingly detailed and in-depth blog post by the devs that covers why their version of the game is superior to the rip-off. Any time I see people praising 2048 I can't help but feel irked by it.
Solitaire and Minesweeper in particular do not use DirectX. They use GDI.
Now-a-days if I wanted to make a similar game I'd use Unity. For example Threes was made in Unity
Here's a nice read from the makers of threes. Some notes on the copycats, their shortcomings, and misappropriations.
BTW, I would definitely give the edge to Threes. That one has had more thought put into the gameplay, and the inclusion of personalities for the various blocks is a nice touch. Also, the music, by Big Giant Circles (aka Jimmy Hinson), is catchy as hell.
Also, REALLY?!? I would think the better description for Threes would :be
>Threes is tiny puzzle that grows on you.
Reached Enclosure, almost took the exact amount of time as From The Sounds Inside that I played in the background too (I've played 2048 type games before though).
If someone here liked the type of puzzle and wants to play something similar that has a lot more depth (you can't as easily stack numbers in a corner by just pressing 2 direction buttons for example, and you have to think a lot more) you should look into the game Threes. Threes was actually made before 2048, its good to give it some recognition if you like 2048 and are into puzzle games of that type.
Li conosco molto bene e posso dire con certezza che non c'entrano proprio nulla con il modello Threes.
Gli sviluppatori di Threes qualche tempo fa hanno scritto un post che descrive tutto quello che è successo dall'uscita del loro gioco, passando per i vari cloni, molto dettagliatamente. Includono addirittura gli schemi su cui lavoravano per fare il gioco. Ti posso assicurare che se hai giocato almeno una volta a Threes, la volta dopo che riprendi in mano 2048 ti accorgi della differenze, eccome se te ne accorgi.
The "Corner Strategy" which reveals how weak 2048 is compared to "Threes":
Just try tapping “up” then “right” in alternating order until you can’t move. Then press left. You may not get to a 2048, but you might just see your highest score ever.
From this article by the Threes developers, which everyone here should read: http://asherv.com/threes/threemails/
Just a little nit pick on my part: 2048 is a clone of 1024, which is a clone of the game Threes. It's a great game and it's a shame that most people think "Threes" is the clone. =(
EDIT: From the above link: > Just try tapping “up” then “right” in alternating order until you can’t move. Then press left. You may not get to a 2048, but you might just see your highest score ever.
This is the corner strategy that exists in 2048. It should also be present in this version.
Not sure why my original comment does not show up on other people's accounts. I can see it.
Source: Datascope Analytics
If you haven't played Threes yet, you should. It's an awesome little game.
This visualization shows if you are any good at it -- Are you doing better than if you just randomly swiped around?
Yeah, and the sad part of the story was that 2048 became immensely popular while Threes did not. But besides all the moral/business issues that plague the games industry, Threes is simply a better-designed (and more challenging) game, so I highly recommend giving it a go!
You are absolutely right because 2048 is completely mindless and is just matching numbers with essentially zero strategy. You can just put your high card in the corner and alternate up and sideways. It's barely even a puzzle game and I'm pretty sure my cat could beat it. Threes! was developed over a year while the guy who made 2048 and copied Threes! churned out his shovelware in less than a week. Further reading.
There's a great post from the developer of threes here that goes into a huge amount of detail about all the design and iterations threes went through before it settled on the final version. Makes you appreciate how annoying it must be when someone clones your work and is more successful than you. http://asherv.com/threes/threemails/
Not to belittle your work, but it's nice to recognize the ultimate source (afaik) for this game. Threes. Not 2048.
http://asherv.com/threes/threemails/ An interesting read for game devs.
This might be way off topic but I still feel bad about the developers behind Threes, the game that was cloned to create 2048, didn’t gain as big of a following that they could have.
This was the blog post they wrote after the fame 2048 gained: http://asherv.com/threes/threemails/
I liked 2048, but it died because, once you learn the technique, it becomes just a game of patience. I got a CLIFFHANGER at first attempt, after not seeing it in years...
If you like the genre, Threes is cuter and more difficult.
Don't forget that copyright also needs to protect the indie artist from having their work redone by a larger business with more marketing and reach or even another indie studio.
The example of Threes comes to mind: http://asherv.com/threes/threemails/
I don't know about you, but I heard about 2048 first.
Of course, this isn't a copyright issue since game design isn't copyrightable to my understanding and no art or music assets were used, but I think it is nonetheless illustrative of the reason why copyright exists and can be used to legitimately protect a creator's work. To some extent, I feel bad that the creators here did not have any real recourse. But, it is tricky to get right, and I am generally against software patents because it is all to easy to "reinvent" something independently or get a patent issued for small extensions or combinations.
A game like Threes took 14 months to develop. You'd be best served either making it yourself or prototyping and refining your idea with paper first and making sure you know exactly what you want to make before contacting anyone to do any programming. Your $500 isn't going to go far (even in countries with a favourable exchange rate to yours) so you need to have your side of things worked out or find a partner and be willing to give up >50% of the potential revenue, programmers are expensive and ideas are cheap.
> I don't understand how it wasn't in the original game?
http://asherv.com/threes/threemails/
They realised the flaw early on and worked out a way to fix it. The clones didn't bother with that bit.
The game Threes! has a pretty cutesy theme, and is a very accessible game, but is hard to master. The developers actually released TONS of emails from the development of the game. I searched for "casual" and found some relevant discussion around the juxtaposition of the cute theme but difficult game. http://asherv.com/threes/threemails/#zachemail
I'm also a fan of these aspects! One of my favourite things is that there's a bit of backstory for the characters you don't unlock with the fanfare. Have you found it? A lot of which was mentioned here regarding the tiles development: http://asherv.com/threes/threemails/
By "victims" I don't mean "2048 is bad" nor "2048 was made by a bad guy", I just mean that Threes took a huge hit because of how easy it was to clone/derive from, and that there was nothing they could do to stop this.
This reminds me there's a nice article on how they handled it.
EDIT: And another one about their reaction to 2048
I don't know about this free version, but the paid version has an option to simplify the graphics/effects to make it less intensive. Edit: It's the "Conserve Battery" option.
For those interested, the entire design/development process is documented here. It's a great read!
I'm a huge fan of Threes! Have you ever read their "making of" article that, among other things, explains how Threes preceded 2048? I've read this entire article twice - it's pretty fascinating.
No problem! If your gameplay is simple (e.g. a puzzle game), using an animated gif might work. Threes, for example, does a stellar job of this: http://asherv.com/threes/ Otherwise, a video will probably be best.
>2048 (the original version of threes) is fun and free and math oriented.
2048 is not the original version of Threes. Threes is the original version of Threes, and 2048 is a knockoff. Check out this relevant post from the Threes creators if you have time, it's a cool read if you're interested in games/game development: http://asherv.com/threes/threemails/
http://asherv.com/threes/ if you want the game 2048 ripped off :D
Also I know my dad plays the DS games I want to say brain age or something like that will go dig through his drawer of stuff in a bit
Edit: Yep Brain Age on the original DS can likely find one cheap if you don't want to buy a 3ds.
There's some good ones if you look around.
Threes is surprisingly addictive, no matter how simple it looks. Maybe the iPhone's "Tetris".
Ridiculous Fishing is certainly one of the best games on the platform, too, and perfectly built around touch and tilt controls.
Also this exists…
Yeah, I still hate a lot of things about Apple on the whole, but damn it all if they don't have a firm hold on the nutsack of my life. Especially since one of my best buds from college develops iOS games (threes, in case you were wondering (you weren't)).
Take a look at this: http://asherv.com/threes/threemails/
It's the design process they went through to make Threes.
It started with simple cards, some square patterns, etc, but after MANY iterations, they came up with something entertaining and adorable - which was probably what took this little puzzle game from just being another puzzle game to App Store fame.
Scroll down to "First Contact" to see the design stuff.
I mention that you should read this, not because you should copy what they did, or to say you'll have the same luck, but to show how incredibly important design is to making a successful game - particularly in the puzzle genre.
you should not have done this to me mate.
http://asherv.com/threes/threemails/#monster
I saw this post of theirs on the website and now I can not live with the current tiles , i want those apple design and monsters.
they look delicious
if this theme were to be made available I would instantly grab it http://asherv.com/threes/threemails/images/017_argoyle3.png
swype up
swype right
repeat.
you may not win the game but you may end up with the highest score you've ever gotten.
This cricism of the game is brought to you by the creators of the original design "Threes"
Doubt it'll get seen, but I'd like to plug Threes. It was made by a couple indie devs who originally came up with the idea. Then they were ripped off by 1024, who was ripped off by 2048. It just makes me sad to see the original creators, who put so much love and effort into their game (which really shows if you ever play Threes) fade to nothing while a soulless copy gets all the credit.
Now we wait for the irony of this post to slowly reveal itself.
I get what you're saying about simple games like Threes, but I think it's a disservice to the devs to just say "I could do that in a couple of months". Yes, you can now, but in order to get to that point it took the devs over a year of experimentation and iteration. You can read the article here. Sometimes GOOD simple games are very complicated to make.
For more on the development of the game Threes! itself, check out the following:
Threes! Indie developer Sirvo writes on how they feel about the numerous copycats of this best-selling mobile game as well as showing many of the emails sent between game designer Asher Vollmer and illustrator Greg Wohlwend during the 14-months of development.
Does anyone know how the guys from Threes made their promo gif/video? Hungry Oni has a nice one too. It's gorgeous and I'd love to learn how to make something similar of my own.
Oh! It's the concept of that one iOS game I saw recently that didn't seem to have an Android version! Cool! I'm at work now, but I will try it, just for a little while... (famous last words)
Edit: It seems like it was released for Android two days ago. :) Anyways I was talking about this app: http://asherv.com/threes/