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They are not the same. People with SPD deal with chronic dissociation to detach from their emotions. They withdraw from people because they learned at a young age that people aren't safe to be around because their caretakers abused and neglected them. Introversion is more of a preference, SPD is a learned and involuntary defense mechanism because people aren't to be trusted.
I'd recommend this book if you're interested in learning more:
https://www.amazon.com/Disorders-Self-Therapeutic-Horizons-Masterson/dp/0876307861/
Nope, I'm definitely SPD (diagnosed). There are many ways to achieve psychological safety/distance from others. This describes the route I took:
https://i.imgur.com/oQpuaiu.jpg
Schizoids are people and people are laden with complexity.
source: Disorders of the Self
Social by Matthew Lieberman might be of interest to you. It's about the neurology of brain development and the key role socialisation plays. Any disruption of that system in early childhood leads to maladaptation. It may not be that things are suppressed, they simply might not be there, particularly with the attachment and bonding system which is very relevant to schizoid and other socialisation disorders, including autism. It's a fascinating read.
>How does this situation improve?
Honestly, it probably doesn't.
I'd focus less on him and his diagnoses and more on setting healthy boundaries, developing coping skills + moving away from codependance (pretty normal for adult children of alcoholics).
Strongly recc this book (for like the 3rd time today!):
> Negative emotions seems more prominent than positive.
Especially for less extroverted types. Reduced positive emotion is a well-established trait of introversion, or at least of more socially anhedonic people (who aren't necessarily introverts).
I'm not exaggerating when I say vitamin D saved my life (seasonal affective disorder) so it's entirely possible something could be off.
In most US states, you can get bloodwork done without a doc. Vit D is like $60. Mag/zinc/copper/D closer to $250 (requestatest.com, but there are others). I'd absolutely vote for ruling that stuff out before taking an SSRI.
Part of being a schizoid I guess. I'm the same way, I wish my mom was happy at the end of the day, but she annoys the shit out of me and I'd rather live completely unaware of her existence. I never talk to her unless she talks to me first and I just don't want to talk to her in general. According to what can cause someone to become a schizoid is how you were treated by your parents. I can confirm that my mom did most of them, which doesn't really surprise me that I can't stand being around her.
https://vgy.me/jn9IQZ.png This is the list of some of the things that might've affected you if you're a schizoid. It's mostly fitting for me.
I have been listening to a lot of Tame Impala recently, this song in particular couldn't be more fitting for this sub.
Solitude is Bliss - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfQCH-igyT4
The lyrics are perfect.
http://genius.com/Tame-impala-solitude-is-bliss-lyrics/
It wouldn't surprise me at all if Kevin Parker was a schizoid.
it's an aspect of social anxiety, specifically fear of negative evaluation.
not necessarily paranoia per se, but it is associated with delusional ideation.
My motivation wanes quickly. I can start ambitious projects and have every intention of fulfilling them, but completing them is a different story. I can complete work or class projects, because the imposed (and often unmovable) deadlines help focus.
> I don't really understand how there can be an 'avoidant' personality disorder, aren't all people with/without 'disorders' avoiding something?
No, it's formally defined and is its own special hell. In a nutshell:
Avoiding work, social, or school activities for fear of criticism or rejection. It may feel as if you are frequently unwelcome in social situations, even when that is not the case. This is because people with avoidant personality disorder have a low threshold for criticism and often imagine themselves to be inferior to others.
Low self-esteem
Self-isolation
Thanks for sharing your perspective. Chapter 2, page 27 if you want to read more on the narc cluster of SPD. Dependence on approval and validation can very much still be a schizoid trait with different ways that they present themselves in behavior. Everyone is a bit different of course.
Human behavior, and SPD, is a spectrum. If you read all the identity disorders in the DSM, you’ll find a lot of overlap. This is because they’re basically meaningless labels that have been categorized from recording the observable phenomenon of behavior. The key trait for SPD lies in the fragmented self and deeply disconnected internal state, neural circuits, etc that only expands over a lifetime without intentional work. This is much different from a megalomaniac or malignant narcissist. But, grandiosity can be as simple as assuming that someone else has the same opinion as you do. In that case, it’s easy to miss social cues and act in ways that are self-protecting of ones identity, even if they’re not intended to be self-aggrandizing. In that sense, yes we can still be bothersome, as you put it, in certain contexts - especially when triggered and defensive.
A good source for classics and public domain material is https://librivox.org/
If you consider yourself a good reader, you can even volunteer and add to the growing library of freely available audio books.
> I would rather not talk softly about what IS harmful.
Amen.
A friend of mine w/some borderline traits (her words) who also happens to be a psychiatrist put it this way:
Borderlines have a painfully unique capacity to destroy other people's lives.
Not sure what advice to give on how to spot a dangerous one from afar. My sister is probably undiagnosed BPD so I'll sometimes pick up a familiar vibe. More often, I'll inadvertently do something completely benign that triggers that kind of behavior and that'll be my clue to erect some hardcore, very black and white boundaries.
This book had some good insights on dealing with borderlines, even though the section on SPD kind of sucked:
Borderline, Narcissistic, and Schizoid Adaptations: The Pursuit of Love, Admiration, and Safety
good luck
Not any that I can recall from over the years. The following has many points I've come across, and would be a safe place to begin learning.
https://www.slideshare.net/wicaksana/communication-body-language
Schizoid Phenomena, Object Relations and the Self - in Paperback.
Took a bit of searching, but might this be what you guys are looking for?
Bonus - free worldwide shipping. :)
There's a lot of goodness in here, thanks for adding :)
​
>By our very nature, there's a disconnect between us and others.
If you overlap interpersonal neurobiology and SPD, the why behind this becomes quite clear. In short, in addition to a weak (at best) sense of self and other, the right brain to right brain co-regulation that builds those relational circuits likely failed to form in us. What we're left with is disconnect because all things "self " are far more salient than other, and the "pure rationality" you described in that conversation with your friend. I think most here have had similar interactions (I definitely have).
If you or anyone is interested, Dan Siegel's Neurobiology of We does a good job of breaking this down in a really accessible, though sometimes rambly, way. The Developing Mind, Third Edition: How Relationships and the Brain Interact to Shape Who We Are may be is an alternate, less conversational version.
Allan Schore provides the denser, academic version.
> here's a definite link between ADHD and developmental trauma.
Gabor Mate, who I respect despite a tendency to oversimplify things for the sake of his own paradigm, wrote a book about it. The gist of which is available via podcast interviews & the principles behind it are sound.
The above also applies to trauma, in general. Unlike developmental trauma, I have the "benefit" of a distinct before/after I can point to.
> NPD and BPD have gotten so, so much more attention
Yup. In a sense, it pays to be problematic. Unlike these two, typically, the only one who directly suffers as a result of SPD is the person with SPD.
> what distinguishes a narcissist from a schizoid
NPD: Feelings of entitlement. Inflated sense of self-importance/superiority. Excessive need for admiration. Manipulative, controlling. Places high value on things like success, power, image.
SPD: none of the above (though superiority can serve a defensive way to maintain distance from others, it's internalized and not aggressive like in narcs)
This book sums it up as Schizoid: safety / Narc: admiration. It's not a very good resource on SPD, but might be for NPD.
I'm honestly not as well versed on narcs + NPD because I've managed to avoid them for the most part. My ex was NPD, which I didn't even know was a thing until his ex-wife (#4) explained it to me after I left. Turns out SPD can reeeeally mess with a narcissist so I seem to have gotten the best-behaved version of him.
Daniel kahnman (sp?) writes in his book Thinking, Fast and Slow, that his best thoughts and ideas came from leisurely walks through parks and woods.
He said if he walked too fast he used too much "cognitive bandwidth" so he had to keep the pace modest
I don't think in terms of streams or podcasts, but I resonate with this:
>I guess I still feel the need to express my opinions and complain about life or just generally talk and converse
My outlet is writing.
If you skim my reddit user-history, it becomes readily apparent that I write long thoughtful comments. I engage with certain topics and share insights or ideas in writing. Similar topics/issues/themes come up pretty regularly so several of my comments hyperlink to other comments I've written.
I've been on a few podcasts and given many presentations for my career. I've also done considerable mentoring. This experience has strongly shaped how I express myself. I think a lot about communication and clarity of message.
I've also had enough shitty exchanges on reddit that I've developed styles for circumventing conversational land-mines, though that doesn't always work so I've also developed a discerning eye for trolls and bad-faith communicators.
When I realized that reddit wasn't a good record, I started keeping private notes using Obsidian.
On reddit, there is a limit on how far back you can scroll through your own comments. After that, they're unrealistic to find. As such, I've started saving the best ones and refining them into clearer and clearer ideas, opinions, and messages. Maybe some day I'll collect them into a book, but even if I don't, the creative expression is what mattered.
Complaining would probably go in a journal rather than a record of ideas. I'm not personally a "rant" person and I generally move on pretty quickly from problems to thinking about possible adjustments and solutions.
Sounds like he already has demonstrated a tendency to disregard your boundaries which usually isn't a great sign. And I would call that "disregarding your boundaries", not negotiating - in a negotiation both people generally get something out of it, what are you getting in this scenario except stress and pressure while he gets what he wants?
Maybe if he knew you were on the verge of cutting him off he'd understand how big a deal it is for you? I completely understand the concern about revealing too many personal issues, I don't think you necessarily need to do that. Maybe just say something like, "If you can't respect my need for space without trying to change my mind and pressure me then I can't continue in this relationship." Short and sweet, you don't have to justify yourself, you have a right to your own preferences.
You might find this book helpful: How to Establish Boundaries by Patrick King. I know, I know, it sounds like a cheesy generic self help book, but it actually is a lot more no nonsense and to the point than most books like that, and given that schizoids (and many people, really) generally don't tend to have healthy examples of boundary-setting to learn from, often learning from a book is a good starting point.
Anyways, whatever you end up doing, I hope it works out and that things get better for you!
>Quantum mechanics doesn't currently say anything about consciousness. If you're talking about observation, that means something different in physics and can refer to observations by a proton, for example.
What did observe the particles that caused the big bang then?
>Curious what disproof of physicalism comes from near death experiences, too. We can track the hallucinations' origins down to physical causes, so we can establish correlation and causation from physical phenomena. What part of it is missing in that explanation?
You need more information. Read this book:
>Also, what do you mean by "non-real" or "true reality"?
Non physical, immaterial reality which doesn't have and depend on space and time. I mean that this spacetime reality is not base reality.
Here's what Elinor Greenberg, who pretty much wrote the book on SPD has to say on Schizoid self diagnosis.
In short, we are an exception to the rule.
What about this?
On the one hand, their job will likely make you uncomfortable, on the other hand, if she's not used to szpd she might try the wrong approach (or just not be a good fit). Maybe look up the Masterson approach (you can find it on the web i think)?
Oh you don't recognize any of those names? You know, James Dean, Clint Eastwood, and so on. Cowboys, gangsters, detectives, yeah? And I meant aesthetics! As in, the imagery that stems from the current sexual/gender culture shift. So in my case I'm not interested in films about homosexual relations, certain styles of painting, some types of feminized music by men ( this title and cover are quite apt for my distaste although haven't heard the album ), etc.
I don't hate performing in front of an audience (it's exhausting but usually has good rewards). Reading Dale Carnegie's books helped me become a better speaker, understand what people were expecting. I recommend those books x and x . but any of his books is good.
In the mean time, just fake it. What would a good speaker do? He would smile and asks enthusiastic questions. Share his enthusiasm. It's exhausting but then people will leave you alone. You can also make a joke but then say "sorry I crack jokes when I'm nervous. Please excuse me, I invested a lot in this project" or something of the kind if you really see them react badly to your behavior. Look them in the eyes, appear confident, share the responsibility with your team (say shit like "This project was carried through by our entire team which worked really hard to deliver the best" whatever), ask if they have questions, give them visuals cues during the presentation ("for example, if this project was successful, we could afford x from the benefice" or whatever it is that is relevant FOR THEM)
maybe it would be good for you to have a dress rehearsal with someone you can trust? an acquaintance, of someone from your team, if you tell them you're a bit nervous. It might take effort but also avoid mistakes in front of the real deal
If you have to do presentation, you will have to fake enthusiasm accurately. Which means truly finding politically correct answers to "why should people buy into this?" it sucks I know I hate that selling shit
there's no need for bad parenting or bad childhood to develop a pd. My parents were just arguing a lot basically, but nothing abusive. It has created trauma anyway (no need for abuse to create trauma). Read the resources (right panel), especially this one that you can probably find on the internet.
Looks like they had some servers go down. Explanation here: https://the-eye.eu/. The book is James Masterson Disorders of the Self, it's a book referenced in this sub's wiki quite a bit. DM me if you are interested in the PDF. I think I have an offline copy somewhere.
bear in mind its a very small sample size experiment.
4 out of 5 non respondents out of a total of 13 participants were actively rejecting and aloof towards others social advances.
I think the most important thing I had to do before I started having progress is taking some sort of guidance. There's a great book called The Mind Illuminated which helped me a lot with motivation. It explains the stages you'll go through in detail, as well as providing a theoretical framework for the experiences you'll have, difficulties you might face and what benefits you can expect. You can find it on libgen for free.
If a book is too much trouble in the beginning (it can be, it's a huge ass intimidating PDF you might not feel like opening up many days), you can get some decent guidance from a meditation app like "Waking Up" by Sam Harris. I can give you a 7 day trial link, but you can also get premium access for free if you send them a request. Guided meditations are easier than practicing on your own because the voice reminds you to meditate, making you snap out of your thoughts. It will also teach you some useful concepts.
Some other tips I picked up over time:
1- Don't worry about sitting in a specific special way like cross legged, lotus position, etc. If you're uncomfortable, meditation will suck. Sit on a chair or sofa with your back straight if you like.
2- Don't beat yourself up over "being bad". You will try to focus on the breath for instance and soon find yourself thinking of random things. This is normal, don't worry about it. Imagine it is like lifting weight, but the "lifting" is when you catch yourself thinking / remember you're meditating. That's the exercise and you will get better at it.
3- Consistence is important. Try doing it everyday, even if only for 15 minutes. We all have some 15 minutes in a day we spend shitposting or scrolling random stuff. When we spend some of that meditating, it really pays off, you can feel a difference soon, no need to practice for years and years.
Good luck!
I am not complaining: Ambivalnce construct in schizoid PD
https://www.academia.edu/7506346/I_am_not_complaining_-_Ambivalnce_Construct_in_Schizoid_PD
on the basis of considerations like this, i often think to practice getting emotional before i go into my therapist. i think they often feel nothing is wrong and nothing can be done because how out of step my emotional reaction is to what i consider to be the real severity of my situation
I'll recommend you two things:
- take a look at udemy courses, maybe you find something that you really like, and you can master it eventually, idk, I'm trying that too, somehow with some hope we can find something;
- try the book "The Art and Science of Remembering Everything" by Joshua Foer (you can find the free pdf file online too), I think you would like, for real.
But yeah, there's no stimulation in this education system and it only train us for memorize. Even math can be fun sometimes, but not in school, it's like they pick the worst subjects and throw on us.
IQ testing literally started as part of America's eugenics campaign to see who should be sterilized.
https://via.library.depaul.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1270&context=law-review
https://www.amazon.com/War-Against-Weak-Eugenics-Americas/dp/0914153293
Intelligence is so context-specific having a number doesn't do much but make someone feel superior over someone else. Don't worry about these tests and numbers.
I considered but I don't have the symptoms. Was more like a "is this what it is?" kind of guess rather than a serious consideration. Also thought emotional deprivation disorder but it didn't quite line up. Schizoid isn't even a symptom list, it's a biography.
I have ASUS PG35VQ 35" UWQHD Curve 200Hz Gsync https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07SV4XS2Q/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_1FKMBWAZJXMA2NW257PP?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1
And Alienware AW2521H 24.5 Inch FHD... https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B08NFDFBQZ?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share
I’ve been playing doom eternal as well that looks incredible.
Defo gonna try mine craft rtx, completely forgot about that.
I’ve got all this gear but I’ve only got 8mbps download speed so downloading games has a whole day delay
>Mental disorders in film
https://mubi.com/lists/loneliness-depression-alienation-mental-disorders
I'd like to hear peoples' thoughts on:
Morvern Callar
The Double
Institute Benjamenta, or This Dream People Call Human Life
The Green Ray
(there are others. i'll edit them in if I remember)
>I loved the game theory stuff, super interesting
Then you'd love this course. It was awesome. The lecturer is very clear, and if you're not into math, it would still make sense and there is very very little math.
It actually helps a lot for understanding people and situations. Turns out, evolution has been pretty good at making us relatively efficient in our actions.
>for schizoids the fear isn't there (right?)
Not for me, i.e. I don't fear being alone. I love being alone.
I don't really think in terms of "for all people with SPD". That's just not useful for me.
If it applies to me, it applies to me. If it applies to someone else, but not me, that's great for them.
Hm, not really. I'd start with reading the Wikipedia entry and go from there if it catches your interest.
For practically learning to communicate, which includes learning more theory of mind, I quite enjoyed Effective Communication on The Great Courses. I also found the book Adversaries Into Allies was extremely useful and practical; the writing was a bit bombastic for my tastes, but the content was top-notch if you can accept the writer has a particular style that might not be the most palatable.
Way too detailed to explain in a reddit comment, my dude.
Start with /r/personalfinance and maybe if there is a /r/personalfinanceYourCountry (if you're not in USA), then learn elsewhere about Exchange Trader Funds for stocks and bonds. This course was time well spent to think about broader options. Then open an account on something like Questrade.
It's not as hard as you think, but it's not trivial, either. I'd say basic investing is on the same level as learning how to drive a car, I guess.
Avoidance of pain (both personal and not wanting to disappoint others) is often a motivating factor.
Sometimes making lists helps me.
Habitica (formerly HabitRPG) has been a helpful accountability tool, because it's the perfect intersection of the above. When you're "questing" with a party, any scheduled activities you miss damage everyone in the group. It's free to use, and the subscription cost is really only for cosmetics and expanded record-keeping.
You can read this book: Borderline, Narcissistic, and Schizoid Adaptations: The Pursuit of Love, Admiration, and Safety. Chapters 3 and 13 are about SPD.
And you can watch this video with the author.
Hell yeah. I've got in-ear monitors. They sound incredible, and I literally cannot hear people because they act like ear-plugs. Perfect for being on public transit since I cannot even hear the engine of the bus/streetcar.
Thank you! This is very interesting. Yes, Armstrong has been described in various sources (including Michael Collins' great autobiographical book) as very introverted. I was wondering how much NASA deliberately targeted this personality type because Buzz Aldrin, for example, was the exact opposite of Armstrong (they got along reasonably well apparently). I will try to dig out more on this topic. I will definitely watch the movie. There are not many works of fiction exploring schizoid personality. Plus I'm a huge space sci-fi nerd.
Career choices? Have practical goals in mind: You want to pay your bills and afford a self-sufficient lifestyle. Unless you hit the lottery or write a bestselling novel, you probably aren't going to be able to avoid working with people if you want to meet these goals. Is your affinity for math, science, or literature? Lots of engineers are undiagnosed schizoids or on the autism spectrum. Library Science is great field for loners. You can be a research librarian or just run a county library, which pays pretty decent. Believe it or not, high school librarians are in demand in many places and they don't do much except manage the collection. In order to deal with people (personally or professionally) I recommend reading a book called Games People Play. It really helps to put social interaction in perspective and makes it manageable. Here's a link https://www.amazon.com/Games-People-Play-Transactional-Analysis/dp/0345410033
In case you're interested, you might find this book helpful: The Pragmatist's Guide to Sexuality, specifically the appendix where they go over research and the chapters where they discuss various kinks and fetishes, and the possible origins from an evolutionary perspective (the rest isn't all that interesting imo). They cover a lot of ground including fetishes that I hadn't even heard of. It can be a relief to read such an analytical treatment of the topic and also to recognize that while it's not common, it's definitely not unheard of either.
I've watched those too, that video will contain a lot of the same content. His book Why Zebra's Don't Get Ulcers is very relevant to the cptsd, brain, neuron issues. Highly recommend.
Well I had a quick look at your comments to see some of the things you're dealing with and experiences from your past. So top of the list I would say.
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessell van der
The first half or so of this book is great. He goes through the science of trauma, how we know what we know, the various developments right up to the creation of the term CPTSD and his fights with the American DSM.
After that I'd recommend Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving by Pete Walker.
These are very good companion books, they talk about the same issues, the same pain but from slightly different angles. The first was the rational science book, the second is the emotional irrational book, but it turns out that stuff matters.
You can PM me if you'd like to talk about it more, happy to share.
Lol, usually it'd be half that stack but one was written by a friend, another was recc'd by therapist, and still haven't figured out the library's new covid flow. Things now come VERY fast!
I like Block's alphabetical story arrangement. Always thought if I wrote a book, I'd use ABC... as a structure (crutch) for the chapters. I really don't enjoy writing and don't have the attentional capacity to construct a proper plot/story arc. Did NaNoWriMo once and the whole thing was set in a traffic jam on the 405 freeway. Constructs are good :)
>I also tried to go back to read the pulpy Star Trek TNG
Haa, it's funny trying to re-read books from childhood. I re-visited two favorites last year and realized I was a waaaaay weirder (and wiser) kid than I thought. And also haven't changed much since second grade, apparently. Just lack the imagination.
The story is an allegory on conformity, as Bubber, a lemming, is faced with following his entire race to self-induced extinction. Bubber struggles to decide if he should participate in what appears to be an insane death walk, only to constantly be told by family and friends that this is just the way things are. The story provides a superb lesson on conformity, free thinking and personal accountability.
And with his parents off at a resort and his older sister shirking her babysitting duties, Victor has plenty of time to indulge himself and to try a few things he’s been curious about [...] strange and fantastic place that operates with an inspired logic of its own.
It's on Amazon for 36$. I'd say it's good price for a pretty damn old clinical book and it has cool cover. bought it last week, still waiting to arrive to my country.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1537334220/ref=cm_sw_r_other_apa_i_pSlZCb838CMEM
Hmmm. I only have the DP part and it's not ruminative, but I just got this book:
https://i.imgur.com/5SN9hS4.jpg
Is there a specific thing that's hell? When reading, I'll keep in mind. Looks like it's basically an ACT-based approach.
Have never heard of bupropion for dp/dr, maybe that was Rx'd for depression? Book also mentions SSRI, Anafranil, Naltrexone. I take naltrexone and it helps some.
>in my head trauma was the kind of shit that was brutal, sudden, direct. Like rape, brutal physical violence, violent illnesses, stuff like that.
Thanks for sharing your backstory and think this misconception ^ gets in the way of a lot of people's understanding/progress/healing/pick your thing. I didn't think I had a trauma history either (I 1000% do) for this reason (even though I also had violence and illness but oh well). Also because, in a really fucked up attempt at psychological self-preservation, trauma meant something had succeeding in hurting me and this was wholly unacceptable. I literally could not let it be true.
Thankfully much therapy has completely undone this and the weight lifted is immense. Sounds like you've also found some relief in acceptance of what is and the resulting self-compassion that comes with that. Go you. Really.
But hey, don't knock the SE kids. We were the cool ones ;)
Resource:
If you can stand the narrative, this a good overview of repeated trauma.
Journey Through Trauma: A Trail Guide to the 5-Phase Cycle of Healing Repeated Trauma
Yeah. It's a short easy read.
I just started listening to this:
The Buddhist on Death Row: How One Man Found Light in the Darkest Place
Similar concept, sort of.
> How are you able to look at past experiences from a true perspective?
Two things: information + therapy.
On the information side, I learned the basic theories so I'd know what to look out for. I'm annoyingly pragmatic so theories don't get me very far unless I can map them to something demonstrable, which lead me to read parenting books. No joke. A whole stack of them. Dan Siegel in particular was a great resource for this.
Weird as that sounds, the parenting books were an absolute game changer. I didn't really have "parenting" and the stuff they talked about was so foreign and seemed sooooo unbelievable, I felt a need to fact check the contents with friends, friends with kids, and my therapist. Didn't take very long for me to finally see the water I grew up swimming in, that my concept of "normal" was anything but, and while I managed to adapt to that particular environment, doing so left me at serious odds with the rest of the world.
Therapist was also incredibly helpful here because she could provide trustworthy feedback from a place of "normal" that I couldn't manufacture on my own, based on lived experience. Kinda like a really expanded, in-depth version of that mirroring thing that happens in therapy.
As a bonus, she had a 4 year old when we started working together and we'd hold my experiences next to his in a compare-contrast kind of way. Every time it was like oooooooooh. Ohhhhhhhhh. Really? Fuck.
Final complement was addition MDMDA + psychedelic-assisted therapy to the mix. I'm the furthest thing from a drug enthusiast (don't even drink alcohol) but experientially, this brought things home in ways that probably never would have happened otherwise. Nothing too fantastic or out there, just a whole lot of clarity.
Hope something in there was... useful?!?
Yeah. Some people hack up the standard 50mg tablets or do volumetric dosing (cheaper) but the compounded isn't expensive enough for me to mess with that.
I read about it in this book and brought it in to my Dr. and they had no issue trying it out.
In lieu of the book, here's a link that might help: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25421416/
4.5mg tablets are a pretty standard dose so we rounded up the mg/kg slightly to make things easier. I tried taking 2 (9mg) and it was waaaaay too much -- was lying in bed with a 70 BPM heart rate when my normal resting is in the 40s.
Now I take 1 1/2 (6.75mg) and it seems about right.
good luck
I can recommend Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl. He talks about, well, reasons for existing and such.
No worries, there's lots of good info! If you are interested in the narcissistic side of things and family models, I can recommend this book: https://www.amazon.com/Narcissistic-Family-Diagnosis-Treatment/dp/0787908703
> Guntrip was right about schizoids being afraid to read books
LOL. Guntrip has clearly never seen my library history. RIP Harry.
After wading through plenty of literature, I finally concluded you [I] don't need delve into the minutiae of every theory to create an actionable path to change. For me, this kind of intellectual procrastination only goes so far. And I'm in it for the change.
Genuinely hope these posts help someone looking for new sources of information though. Appreciate you taking the time, on their behalf :)
In the introduction to Borderline, Narcissistic, and Schizoid Adaptations, Greenberg addresses the value of simplicity:
https://i.imgur.com/l19d32G.jpg
That page alone could shape the focus of therapy.
But like Sartre's "you have to choose: live or tell.", at some point you need to put other people's ideas down and get in the weeds of your self.
I'm only like 5 pages in, so can't exactly recommend but might be something interesting:
Good Chemistry: The Science of Connection, from Soul to Psychedelics
> it's not like esoteric psychobabble stuff. It has citations and sound reasoning.
Oh thank god.
> this book is concerned with reconciling the body and the mind.
This is what caught my attention. I heard a brief interview with one of the authors (Lanius) who mentioned a sort of 5 (?) prong approach that sounded relatively systematic and grounded. It was literally a 30 second snippet, but sounded promising. Admit I'm a sucker for systematic approaches though.
Her husband also works in the field and his book turned me on to the endogenous opioid theory of dissociation which handily overlapped with spd traits and more than one of my past diagnoses (anorexia, ptsd). The use of naltrexone to blunt its effects hasn't exactly been life altering, but I've given up on silver bullets. Noticeably helpful. is a good enough win.
Unless you're well versed and interested in psychoanalytic theory, I'd skip it. I didn't find it at all useful/applicable for self exploration.
If you prefer a more direct, modern perspective and haven't read Disorders of the Self: New Therapeutic Horizons, I'd start there.
Uh, ok then. If you ever decide you might not know everything, I found this book helpful when navigating two teenage boys:
https://www.amazon.com/Teenage-Brain-Neuroscientists-Survival-Adolescents-ebook/dp/B00GQZPHC4
Good luck with your daughter.
Going back to attachment, forgot to mention this is a basic, but thorough introduction:
You need to 2x speed because Siegel meanders.
> I think the "real" preoccupied ex out-preoccupied me [...] I'd forgo my need for space to comfort him.
From attachment perspective, this is precisely the thing that would send an avoidant running. Like, do not pass go. Do not collect whatever. The act of actually physically comforting another, with demonstrable "care", wouldn't be possible because the entire attachment system would be offline.
If you have a good library/ever run out of books to read, there's a great chapter on this in:
How People Change: Relationships and Neuroplasticity in Psychotherapy
Sorry, I'm not willing to wade through another wall of text with so little punctuation.
But I got through this:
> I don't understand what other people mean by "feeling" in expressions such as "talking about feelings" and "talking about emotions" and "describing feelings" and "describing emotions." I just guess.
Which honestly doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me unless you're alexithymic. And even then, there's little mystery to what those things mean - even to someone who is.
Might try one of Damasio's books? Would probably start with this one: https://www.amazon.com/Feeling-What-Happens-Emotion-Consciousness/dp/0156010755
If you haven't already, might want to check out ployvagal theory. Dorsal Vagal in particular. The framework of neural platforms takes things to a whole other level.
https://www.amazon.com/Polyvagal-Theory-Therapy-Interpersonal-Neurobiology/dp/0393712370
Yeah. After being (mis)diagnosed different things and then handed schizoid with its 'no good treatment outcome', I kinda learned to abandon the diagnostic boxes and go towards whatever I could map to my experience. This approach has been the most useful for me (+ my therapist).
While you're reading, Allan Schore is dense but really good on this stuff. I just picked up Attachment-Based Yoga & Meditation for Trauma Recovery: Simple, Safe, and Effective Practices for Therapy - even though I don't meditate or yoga, it has a lot of things actually DO and that's been hard to find.
> My current therapist is very nice but I don't think she can help me beyond getting things off my chest.
You just summed up ~~8~~ 6 of my 10 or so years of therapy. It's a good first step, and maybe second step too. But at some point you're just talking. Kinda cliche, but you really can't talk yourself out of something you didn't talk yourself into. Esp when so much developmental trauma is preverbal. There literally are no words.
Dissociative symptoms. If you don't get anywhere, the last chapter of this book has a write up on use of LDN for dissociation. Includes small study, dosing schedule + mg/kg (which is all my prescribers really cared about).
> Trauma isn't simple.
Nope! It gets even more slippery when you're talking about the absence/neglect end of the spectrum because there's no big bad thing you can point to. When it's not what happened, but what didn't... ugh. It can all be so easy to miss/dismiss.
I don't know if this is a good fit, but might be worth checking out:
https://www.amazon.com/Narcissistic-Family-Diagnosis-Treatment/dp/0787908703
Well, I'm not a therapist or a borderline so... But yeah, I can see how+why this could happen. Read any of the therapeutic manuals and there are entire sections dedicated to managing BPD clients. Not therapy, management. In addition to therapy. Elinor Greenberg's book is a simple example, especially when contrasted to the schizoid section. Which is really more like two sentences about not needing to set any boundaries with us because we already have plenty + how slow and boring we can be.
Dissociation is one of those things they like to talk about, describe, point to... but can't really explain. Is frustrating. This is the best resource I've found; still in the realm of best-guess, but interesting/better than nothing.
Sorry, I don't. A decent-ish library should be able to get them for you, at least in the US.
If you want academic and/or like brains, Allan Schore is your guy. Dan Siegel addresses a lot of the same stuff, but is way more accessible. The Neurobiolgy of We comes to mind for him, if you like audiobooks. He also did Pocket Guide to Interpersonal Neurobiology which is kind of misleading @500+ pages. But you can just pick through whatever sections interest you & it will still make sense.
> Dissociation is completely mysterious in psychiatry.
Haa, yeah. That's been my experience. I thought (hoped) you might have had a different one. Neurobiology of Traumatic Dissociation is the closest I've come to anything useful, and it's mostly hypothesis stage stuff. Is where I got the naltrexone idea from.
>Are you clumsy or awkward bodily? Not usually; I've played a lot of sports. Exception being if I drift too far off during a trail run - enter a no warning, hand of god type SPLAT. Stakes are high on rocky trails and I've had a few ER visits this year.
>other ppl have a solid sense of their own agency or feel like agents, where for me it always felt ephemeral or just like a form of shakey make believe Yeah, that sounds like a potentially very disorienting (?) thing to focus on. I've never had any reason to doubt my physical agency, but I'm definitely not attached to it. I = my brain and the body-half does its own thing but seems generally cooperative. I can locate my body-parts the way I can locate my couch in a pitch black room. The experience is about equal.
https://www.amazon.com/Oddjobs-Heide-Goody/dp/0993365531
Just finished this, and was surprised by the quality. Blurb makes it sound dumb and goofy, but the universe is all mythos-y (but original and neat) and fairly grim.
If you're staying on the path of old/ancient writing...
Stoicism books might be more interesting. Meditations by Marcus Aurelius (basically personal notes from a Roman Emperor). Letters from a Stoic by Seneca, another Roman. Staying on the fairy tale route, many of Aesop's fables. Epictetus (another greek stoic that also has a more boring philosophy book printed under penguin called discourses and selected writings) mentioned the fable called The Boy and the Filberts. The North Wind and the Sun comes up as well.
Of course the fables will have their own structure similar to your prior comment.
For a more modern perspective, take, for example, how works directed at children tend to avoid hypersexualization. IE watching a show like Pokemon or Gravity Falls will typically avoid it. Then folk like Hayao Miyazaki who did all the Studio Ghibli films specifically tried to avoid the typical boy/girl relationship dynamic, finding it unnecessary to show bonds between people.
Damn, I'm sorry you gotta go through all that bullshit, that sucks.
The whole secret schizoid part of me really came about during my childhood. I had an extremely overbearing mother with an extremely passive, yet angry father. I could not be myself ever because my mother would be angry at me (e.g. she would yell at me because I didn't smile more and would punish me for not expressing myself overtly like my brother). Consequently, I grew up faking my emotions and became extroverted to keep my mother off my back. On the inside though, I was safe knowing I could be myself alone.
One major problem (or advantage, depending on how you see it) of being a secret schizoid is that every person you meet, you unconsciously mold yourself to their personality. You become the mirror to their personality and people love it because it makes them think they found another person like them. For example, when people ask you:
>what my favourite whatever is
If you haven't done so already, turn it around and ask them, "well what's your favorite whatever?" From there, whatever they say, you like. It sounds terrible, but that's the secret schizoid act in a nutshell.
Also another tip is to relax and take your time. Pretty much in all situations, just relax. You have a choice whether you know it or not. You can choose to be nervous and tense, or you can choose the better choice and relax. People like people who are unhurried and relaxed. By doing so you convey confidence, and of course people like people who are confident. At that point it doesn't even matter what you say. I've said really fucking dumb shit to people, but I've said it in a cool and relaxed manner and they will laugh their ass off and love you.
One more thing. Read How To Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie. This book pretty much expands on everything I've said above, minus the schizoid parts. Once you know the rules of the game, everything becomes second nature.
I've mostly done dev-ops type stuff with some front-end work, but what you do is build up "career capital" in the form of experience and code samples, then apply for better and better jobs until you get somewhere you like. You keep learning popular things like Python, pick up orphan projects at your current job, and work on projects (even your personal website) in your spare time that you can open source on Github or CPAN or wherever. I don't freelance (yet) and have never had to network, though I do get recruiters offering me shit on linkedin.
My suggestion would be to try for stable jobs rather than freelance, until you've built up enough of this "career capital" so that it's easy to find clients. I just read, and really recommend, the book So Good They Can't Ignore You. (It's not very dense, you can read it in a few hours, but it's a fun read.)
I would imagine there would be more networking on the design end of web work, rather than the programming side.
There is a large debate about personal disorders and their cause. On one side there is the DSM that organizes the symptoms of SPD but doesn't really offer an explanation of what causes the symptoms. Some say it could be biological and with our limited understanding of neurology it's impossible to know the exact cause of any personality disorder.
The second view comes from psychoanalysis. Sometimes referred to as the Freudian view by people who want to dismiss it as outdated psychobabble. The most influential work on this description of SPD comes from Harry Guntrip's Schizoid Phenomena, Object-Relations and the Self. Another more accessible and less dense work is Karen Horney's Neurosis and Human Growth. Particularly chapter 11, which describes the schizoid character structure (note that Horney didn't call it SPD and used a different name). I would recommend reading Horney if you want to learn more about this view of SPD.
I side with the psychoanalysis view on this debate. Not because I have some hidden evidence that will blow this debate wide open, but at the very least because psychoanalysis gives you the tools to figure out if your behavior is driven by shame or not. Which is very useful information, even if you determine that it's not shame driven. Which is something you can't do if you look at the DSM.
Here is one way to determine if behavior is shame driven. Ask yourself if you can enjoy avoiding real relationships. If you can't, then try to figure out why.
Hard Rhino. There's an amazon link below. I took 10 grams a day (ten little scoops) but I find some benefit from 5 or 6 as well. The Close family was apparently taking 30g per day for their genetically induced psych issues. It's sweet, so you can actually put it in water or other beverage (I like chocolate milk).
Glycine is not just an amino, it's also a neurotransmitter. If nothing else it helped me to sleep better - including more dreaming, or at least more memory that I had a dream. Other family members reported positive effects too, but possibly due to placebo and blah blah. The fact remains that two humans had a genetic glycine reduction and their negative symptoms improved with high does go glycine.
I stopped for reasons unrelated to the glycine. I still take some sometimes and it helps relax me and helps me sleep. I just wanted to throw it out there for people to have a try. It seems like there shouldn't be a down side AFICT so why not?
https://www.amazon.com/Hard-Rhino-L-Glycine-Unflavored-Lab-Tested/dp/B006IFFTRA
Any therapist can diagnose schizoid. It's in the DSM.
If you want a decent therapist, you might as well try Ralph Klein. He wrote a really good book about it.
See if you can get hold of a copy of "The Betrayal of the Body" by Alexander Lowen. I'm working my way through it, and finding it very good.
happy that you found my response helpful! Saw a book recommendation from someone else, and reminds me that it was actually a book that was a massive turning point for me: The Power of Vulnerability
Really revealed a lot to me about how to have authentic human connection. Just to clarify, when I wrote about 'vulnerability' wasn't necessarily referring to baring your weaknesses to everyone, more having the confidence and willingness to be authentic, which used to be very difficult for me (basically impossible, because I didn't know HOW to be authentic; all my interactions were my 'fake' public persona by default, and the 'real' me was withdrawn).