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It’s hard to go from atheism to fundamentalism, especially when one has been taught basics of free thought, empiricism, and skeptical thinking. Perhaps someone could be feeling a sense of missing community or purpose, but the list of secular communities that can fill this role is rapidly growing. John is speaking from some anecdote, but I’m not sure the data backs up his claims. I think there is a much higher likelihood of a child reared in a fundamental religious household of maintaining those beliefs than in a child who is reared in a secular one.

Now, a couple book recommendations if you have the time beyond listening to podcasts. Parenting Beyond Belief and Raising Freethinkers. The two go hand in hand.

My thoughts, coming from a mixed faith marriage, are to try and raise my kids in a way to teach them to think critically for themselves. If they choose mormonism, I hope it will be a well thought out choice, and if they truly believe that is their best chance to thrive and be happy, I will support that choice, even though I disagree with so much of the religion’s belief system and cultute. Whatever they choose in life, I hope to equip them with the tools to make good, well-informed, choices that will allow them to thrive in life.

ETA: Both of these book titles also have their own podcasts that are probably worth checking out to get some additional perspectives.

Religion gives you your morality. Without religion, you must determine what constitutes moral behavior for yourself. The study of ethics is a rich field that has been ongoing for centuries. A simple starting place could be something like trying to do things that optimize your own chance to succeed and thrive and to not hinder anyone else’s ability to do so. It gets more complicated from there, including one’s obligation or duty to others.

One outlook that I personally relate to and that resonates with me is secular humanism. Greg Epstein is a humanist who wrote a New York Times bestseller called Good Without God that I highly recommend.

This time of your life of figuring things out for yourself without the burden or baggage of religious systems is exciting. Allow yourself to explore different ideas and systems and see which ones make sense and resonate with you. Good luck!

This is an excellent translation with full-color plates: https://www.amazon.com/Egyptian-Book-Dead-Integrated-Full-Color/dp/1452144389/ref=sr\_1\_1?dchild=1&keywords=book+of+the+dead&qid=1627075690&sr=8-1

You are right in that most of OP's links don't work, or don't link to what they say they did.

That said, I have over the years seen the sources of these things, though I don't have them linked myself, so I know most of these things were actually official doctrines of the church. Things like Adam-God were even part of the temple ceremony before being removed and then eventually labeled as heresey.

If you haven't read it all ready, I'd highly recommend the book This is My Doctrine: The Development of Mormon Theology. Its written by a BYU professor and doctrinal point by doctrinal point analyzes the numerous teachings of the church and how they changed/evolved/were removed, etc, over the history of the church.

First off, I’m a different person than who you originally ranted at. Second, I’m active LDS and heterosexual and married with kids.

I’m asking these questions because you keep saying DOCTRINE in all caps as if there have been ANY spiritual principles that have remained the same throughout LDS Church history.

This is a verifiably false assumption. Even “Doctrines” change over time. There’s a great book called This is My Doctrine by BYU professor Charles Harrel that discusses this in far more detail than i am capable.

It makes me sad to see such cold-hearted fundamentalism as yours in mormonism.

As far as the church is concerned there may be a couple things that could happen. First of all, they don't excommunicate minors, so don't even worry about that. Second, there is something that many refer to as "bishop roulette". Essentially that means that your eclessiastical punishment could be a couple different things. I also want to note how ridiculous it is that there is a punishment for something that is perfectly normal and natural for humans to do, but I'll get to that in a second. Section 6.7.2 of Handbook 1 (the book that bishops are trained from) states that there may need to be a punishment. The punishment could range from literally nothing, to just telling you not to again, to reading some passage of scriptures, to not taking sacrament for a while, to not going and doing baptisms for the dead, to not being able to pray at church, to not having ministers (home/visiting teachers) assigned to you.

That being said, having sex and masturbating at your age is very common and normal. Its when humans naturally start becoming sexually mature. Sexual urges and experiences are nothing to be ashamed of, because they are built into who we are. We all have the urges, we all act on them, and we should just drop the stigma around sex so that we can all enjoy it more fully. The way I see it is you should be proud of and love who you are instead of being ashamed. This may be what you need to pray for and work towards instead of forgiveness.

D. Michael Quinn addressed the scope of the finances (holding companies, property, etc.) in his book but I don't think he came up with a specific value. However, his goal was more to address the integration of church leadership in these external finances than to quantify them.

Edit: And I agree with you, it's really frustrating.

I was reading Gods, Man and War (co written by Peter Levenda who wrote The Angel and the Sorcerer about the magical and occult practices of Early Mormonism) and in it, they talk a lot about cargo cults as a basis for all religions as well. The understanding of cargo cults might have been my shelf item in trusting anything that claims it is god...

I came her to post ths. I've never personally read it, but I hear good things. Here is the amazon link. https://www.amazon.com/This-My-Doctrine-Development-Theology/dp/1589581032/ref=sr_1_24?keywords=lds+doctrine&qid=1573148979&s=books&sr=1-24

> Senator McCoMAS. When vacancies occurred thereafter, by what body were the vacancies in the twelve apostles filled?

> Mr. SMITH. Perhaps I may say in this way: Chosen by the body, the twelve themselves, by and with the consent and approval of the first presidency.

> Senator HOAB. Was there a revelation in regard to each of them?

> Mr. SMITH. No, sir; not in regard to each of them. Do you mean in the beginning?

> Senator HOAR. I understand you to say that the original twelve apostles were selected by revelation ?

> Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

> Senator HOAR. Through Joseph Smith ?

> Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; that is right.

> Senator HOAR. Is there any revelation in regard to the subsequent ones?

> Mr. SMITH. No, sir; it has been the choice of the body.

> Senator McCoMAS. Then the apostles are perpetuated in succession by their own act and the approval of the first presidency ?

> Mr. SMITH. That is right.

Then, later in the same session...

> Mr. SMITH. And then, again, the senior apostle, through custom of the church since the death of Joseph Smith, has been recognized on the death of the president as the legitimate successor to the president.

Source

You ask excellent questions. Other excellent questions:

• Why do early Christian writings immediately after the NT not really look like Mormonism?
• If the church cannot apostatize now, why wasn't that true of the early Christian church? (Including the promise, "the gates of hell shall not prevail..., etc.)

Here is the text that accompanied this video on the LDS Philanthropies page.

>SYNOPSIS

>Let's face it. Money can be a blessing or a stumbling block. Prosperous families often lament how wealth has negatively affected their children. Greed, selfishness, and mistrust can strain relationships in families of any economic status.

>At LDS Philanthropies, we help families prepare to receive eternal blessings using the principles of philanthropy. Journey to Become is a 15-minute documentary film about one family’s challenge of passing on not only their wealth, but their values to their children. Experience the trials, heartache, and joy the Mellor family discovers along the way.

Here is a mirror that works as of the time I posted this.

After the revelation of 1978 the church continued to teach against interracial marriage. The June 17, 1978 issue of the official Church News which announced the revelation lifting the ban included an articled titled “Interracial Marriage Discouraged” on the very next page. The article included 3 separate excerpts from the speeches of Prophet Spencer W Kimball warning of the dangers of interracial marriages.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=_RxVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=YIADAAAAIBAJ&pg=5866%2C5012493

Shame culture sucks. I wrote a post of the experience I had talking about it in EQ last Sunday HERE.

​

Also interesting is the Brene Brown and Dax Shepard talk about it from a little different angle. They call it common enemy intimacy. Here is a link to iheart version of it. The whole thing is great or skip to the religion part at about minute 50-ish. I think this can be extended from big common enemy intimacy items like the priesthood ban and LGBT things. Those can get a conversation heated fast. To smaller items like. We are united in our hate of porn, immodesty, shoulders, bra straps showing, alcohol, coffee, caffeine, not wearing a white shirt, beards . . .

Here are three books through Signature Books, a subsidiary of Deseret Books:

Development of the Mormon Temple Ceremony by Anderson

Joseph Smiths Quorom of the Anointed by Anderson and Bergera

Nauvoo Endowment Companies by Anderson and Bergera

And finally: Compton’s book partially addresses it

This is a good article, but I think it's trying to paint a full blow acceptance of Naziism as reluctant nationalism.

Here's an article from the Deseret News, 1933 about how similar the LDS were to the National Socialist Party. It even encourages using the present climes to further your family history work (so long as you aren't a Jew, of course).

From https://www.wordnik.com/words/charity (pardon the "The Dictionary defines 'charity' as ..." talk intro)

1. Provision of help or relief to the poor; almsgiving.
2. Something given to help the needy; alms.
3. An institution, organization, or fund established to help the needy.
4. Benevolence or generosity toward others or toward humanity.
5. Indulgence or forbearance in judging others. synonym: mercy.
6. Christianity: The theological virtue defined as love directed first toward God but also toward oneself and one's neighbors as objects of God's love.

I don't think the way the church handles/prioritizes tithing applies to any of the above. You could make an argument towards #6

Just going to plug Robert Alter's excellent (imo) translation and note on these verses. He has an even more nuanced take than the blah-blah-blah that conveys the nonsense of it in more hebrew terms. He translates this section as follows

>“7 And these, too, blundered through wine
and through strong drink went astray.
Priest and prophet blundered through strong drink,
were confounded through wine,
went astray through strong drink,
blundered with the seer,
juddered in judgment.
8 For all the tables were covered with vomit,
filth, with no space left.
9 To whom will they teach knowledge
and to whom will they convey lessons?—
to the milk-weaned,
to babes pulled from the breast?
10 For it is filth-pilth, filth-pilth,
vomit-momit, vomit-momit,
a little here, a little there.
11 For in a barbarous tongue
and in alien language
He shall speak to this people
12 to whom He said, “This is rest—leave it for the weary,
and this is repose,” and they did not want to listen.
13 And the word of the LORD became for them—
filth-pilth, filth-pilth,
vomit-momit, vomit-momit,
a little here, a little here.
So that they should walk and stumble backward,
and be broken, snared, and trapped.”

and his comment on the word choice

>“Wildly divergent interpretations have been proposed for these words. The literal sense would seem to be: “precept precept, line line.” But if precepts are at issue here, they are precepts that have been turned into gibberish by these drunkards. The phonetic kinship between tsaw, precept or command, and tsoʾah, filth or excrement, and between qaw, line, and qiʾ, vomit, is surely not accidental. The translation seeks to convey both this correspondence and the effect of gibberish.”

They are 100% part of church history. That is why the Church didn't just dismiss it as fraudulent based on the content. The context of it totally fit within Joseph Smith's interests in folk magic and the occult.

See Early Mormonism and the Magic World View by Quinn

And it's why Oaks gave a talk after its discovery trying to rationalize why a salamander could also be considered an angel. Weird stuff.

> How do we draw the line in showing love without seeming to abandon our commitment to the truths we understand about God’s law and the covenants we have made? Surely, we do not follow the extreme of severing family relationships or avoiding all contacts with those whose behavior we disapprove.

It's almost certainly correlative, but /u/greatandspacious did deliver this letter to Elder Oaks a short time ago. I don't think his talk goes far enough, but it's a really good start along the path. I think this represents some progress.

> And just as surely, we should seek to avoid seeming to support or condone behavior that violates the laws of God. Here is an example. I know from letters that some faithful parents struggle where to draw the line in family gatherings where a son or daughter wants to include their cohabitating partner. One parent wrote that they included the couple but declined to host them overnight. I cite that as an illustration of individual balancing, not as a proposed rule.

I know it's just an example, but this sounds more like the the status quo.

There are two options for anti-porn training: too early and too late. Each has advantages and disadvantages.

I found porn at the ripe old age of 5–and this was back when you had to do much more than google body parts.

My oldest was introduced to porn at school. At age 11.

There is a consensus that 11 is the average age of “first” exposure to pornography: https://www.netnanny.com/blog/the-detrimental-effects-of-pornography-on-small-children/

From my experience, it’s not church leaders who are out of touch, it’s those who think 11 is too young...

All that said, I cannot fault you your criticizing the style the lesson was delivered with. There are definitely more and less effective ways to teach it. We made a point of not shaming anybody—more of normalizing and empowering the youth.

My two cents.

I don't know of any written sources, but Devery Anderson talks about it in this podcast: https://rationalfaiths.com/15-devery-anderson-development-mormon-temple-worship/

He's the one that wrote <em>Development of LDS Temple Worship, 1846-2000: A Documentary History</em>

You are forgetting Martin Harris's recantation:

Martin Harris confessed that he never saw the plates - "only in vision or imagination" - and neither did anybody else.

Look Here

It is also interesting that none of the witnesses signed a legal affidavit except David Whitmer. His affidavit shines no extra light though; it says that he said what he said.

Possibly same old, but that doesn't make them wrong.

Thanks for pointing out #9 and #10 - I accidentally stripped the sources from the original document. You can find the updated version here. The sources start mid way through page 9

Burying the body and discouraging cremation go back to the days of early Catholicism. It was believed that people who weren’t properly buried on hallowed ground, ground blessed by a priest, would be stuck in purgatory and this idea extended to cremation as well. The Catholic Church today still prefers the burial of the body, but they’re not opposed to cremation or burial at sea, etc. You also no longer need to be buried in a Catholic graveyard or ground blessed by a priest.

So promoting burial over cremation is really an older Christian tradition that the church continued practicing. Growing up in the church I was always told that burial was the preferred method. My mother always said that she didn’t want to be cremated and risk getting somebody else’s body parts. I told her that makes no logical sense, but she still insists on it.

I for one would like to be placed on a Viking longship and have a friend fire a flaming arrow into the ship as I drift out to sea in a fiery blaze of glory. But my wife said no…

Also, if anyone is interested, there’s a great book called From Here to Eternity about a mortician who travels the world exploring different cultures’ death traditions and how they interact with their dead. It’s a really fascinating book, I highly recommend it.

https://www.amazon.com/Here-Eternity-Traveling-World-Death/dp/0393356280/ref=asc_df_0393356280/?tag=hyprod-20&amp;linkCode=df0&amp;hvadid=312371602209&amp;hvpos=&amp;hvnetw=g&amp;hvrand=7588486720489026284&amp;hvpone=&amp;hvptwo=&amp;hvqmt=&amp;hv...

>Hollow of a hand then would be making a cup out of the hand.

It is a metaphor not a reference to the shape of your hand while in the temple making covenants. It is not even refering to Jehovah DOING that. It a metaphor that you want to add an unimplied layer of symbolism to.

Span, as I defined it stands. So does yours - but yours requires the fingers spread, not close together... AND AGAIN is not related to the making of covenants or penalties or handshakes or temple robes.

Please, source a church-approved reference (LDS, Inc; not Church of JohnH2) for your interpretation. So far as I can find, LDS.org does not support your view.

I'll try to check back tomorrow...

A hollow is a depression in a surface or a hole.

But did you read the verse? It has nothing to do with making a covenant. It has nothing to do with a death penalty.

A span is the full extent of a distance - nothing to do with raising your arm to the square, the fingers close together and the thumb extended. Nothing to do with making a covenant. Nothing to do with death penalties. Nothing to do with handshakes.

John - are you sure you're not a troll? Otherwise you are saying crazy things.

Look! That Bible verse talks about Jehovah holding the entire water cycle in his hand! That's like the cupping shape we make in the temple to covenant to obey the law of chastity or else have our bowels spilled! For Jesus!

Enlighten me.

It would be an interesting test case, but they have past case law in their favor when deciding who they can hire and fire. The mingling of federal dollars leaves BYU on a tightwire. The courts would likely grant them permission to be as discriminatory as they want as long they're not asking for federal subsidies.

Copy/Paste a related comment:

A supreme court case, Corporation of Presiding Bishop v. Amos (1987)^1,2 was adjudicated on 9-0 in favor of the mormons being allowed to discriminate. The ruling stated they were not violating the first amendment by requiring everyone who works for them, even in non-ministerial, non-religious positions, to meet certain qualifications of the religion. The case involved a maintenance worker at the Deseret Gym who failed to have a temple recommend and was fired. Since that case, people have been similarly threatened and punished. A groundskeeper could not associate with friends if they were known to be gay on threat of being fired. In that case, the man's bishop had stated that as a requirement for him to sign off on his temple recommend. Anything the bishop asks becomes the requirement to get his ecclesiastical endorsement.

You need to distinguish between the modern church and the original church. Originally, Joseph claimed God had told him, "they were all wrong...all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof."

In modern times, you hear quotes like this from Hinckley. "[We are] not argumentative. We do not debate. We, in effect, simply say to others, ‘Bring all the good that you have and let us see if we can add to it’"

Perhaps different spins on the same message. The LDS church claims to be the only source of truth, and when you combine this with 1 Nephi 14:10 (as mentioned by Pay Lay Ale), you see a dichotomy of God/Satan without a middle ground.

Per your example, when a Catholic claims to pray to know if they should join the catholic religion, and whether God is real, they should only feel the spirit on one, assuming Mormonism is true of course. Yet, I can point to at least one TBC priest claiming to feel the spirit on both. That is why subjective emotion is unreliable and not evidence.

https://www.scribd.com/doc/288685756/Changes-to-LDS-Handbook-1-Document-2-Revised-11-3-15-28003-29

> Handbook 1, number 6.7.3 is also to be updated immediately as follows (addition is highlighted): When a Disciplinary Council is Mandatory Apostasy
As used here, apostasy refers to members who:

>1. Repeatedly act in clear, open, and deliberate public opposition to the Church or its leaders.
2. Persist in teaching as Church doctrine information that is not Church doctrine after they have been corrected by their bishop or a higher authority.
3. Continue to follow the teachings of apostate sects (such as those that advocate plural marriage) after being corrected by their bishop or a higher authority.
4. Are in a same-gender marriage.
5. Formally join another church and advocate its teachings.

http://www.sltrib.com/home/3144035-155/new-mormon-policy-would-make-apostates

And yes, from your link:
>The revisions were outlined in a letter that was sent to local Church leaders throughout the world and affirmed the Church’s doctrine that marriage is between a man and a woman.
It also clarified that entering a same-sex marriage is considered “apostasy” and requires a Church disciplinary council. In addition, the handbook addresses “children of a parent living in a same-gender relationship.”

Don't beat yourself up. It's ok to have your feelings pull you both ways.

Have you considered getting a therapist? If you can afford one, it would be very helpful, I think. I pay for mine out of pocket and she's worth every penny. She's helped me reflect on my past and I've discovered a great number of truths about myself that I never expected, like how I learned as a child to value arguing for truth over refraining from hurting someone's feelings. It's been painful, but helpful.

You might also consider finding a social hobby, as /u/Snapdragon_fish suggested. I recently took up a sport in a city sports club. Consider meetup.com to find activities in your area, and consider attending just to meet friends if nothing else.

Either way, you are not a hostage and you have the power to choose what makes you happy. Your past does not determine your future, and you are capable of making your future what you want it to be.

And feel free to hang around this sub if you like more intellectually-oriented debates and heartfelt discussions. You don't have to be an expert on anything to chime in. Just tell your story.

Here's a hug from an internet stranger.

If you want a really good book on the matter, read &quot;This Is My Doctrine&quot;: The Development of Mormon Theology It takes most of the doctrinal topics and follows their introduction and then evolution across mormonism. Its written by a BYU professor, so its 'faith friendly' in that regard.

I highly recommend it.

I'm not advocating for ignoring signs. I personally avoided homes with no soliciting as I understand people's desire to be left alone.
However I am advocating for people to be kind and forgiving even if the person bothering them is an inconvenience. If you're still having problems get a bigger sign or get one of these signs. The last one is excessive but still funny

https://www.amazon.com/WaaHome-Trespassing-Private-Property-7-8X11-8/dp/B07QWKXPRN/ref=mp_s_a_1_5?dchild=1&amp;keywords=no+trespassing+signs+funny&amp;qid=1611480119&amp;sprefix=no+trespassing+signs&amp;sr=8-5

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B082YDR23V/ref=sspa_mw_detail_4?ie=UTF8&amp;psc=1&amp;smid=A3C65XT1ZMXNAD

Again I'm sorry you feel you've been excessively bothered by missionaries. But I guarantee that at least one of these signs should do the trick

Apologies about the creepy website, it was a godaddy special I threw up just to host the documents. It is also available on the not so malignant Academia.edu website at https://www.academia.edu/18227310/Translation_of_the_Caractors_Document

The current stance on homosexuality is highly problematic, troubling and offensive to many, but it hasn't always been that way. Greg Prince has documented the evolving position of the LDS church on homosexuality. It's a good read: https://www.docdroid.net/yax0x1W/prince-mcmurrin-lecture-gregory-a-prince-copy.pdf#page=12

imgur.com is an image hosting website, originally created by a redditor. It's one of the major image hosting sites on the internet. By contrast, I've never heard of in1.ccio.co, and neither has my web of trust, which leads me to believe it is a very small website.

A mirror is just that, duplicated content hosted elsewhere. You can have a video on youtube, for example, mirrored to vimeo or other places. Mirrors are useful, because some people are at work or school, and the firewalls allow some websites through but block others.

Mirrors also hold sites accountable. For example, in /r/exmormon, many people maintain mirrors of the church essays, so if the church changes the essays, there is a record. This is because the mormon church is surprisingly duplicitous, and has no problem pretending that some things in the past never happened, and that the way things are now have always been. It's very 1984 ish.

Best I've found so far is $7.89 on Kindle. https://www.amazon.com/Early-Mormonism-Magic-World-View/dp/1560850892

I'll keep looking for a PDF or other online version.

The Awakened Family by Shefali Tsabary This book blew my mind because its basic premise was: you love your children because they exist. Period. Even the concept of telling your child, "I just want you to be happy" or "I just want you to meet your potential" can send a message of the child not being enough, and how many of us are even now as adults suffering from the untrue belief that we are not enough? I thought her message transcended even church teachings, and definitely helped me transform the way I spoke to and treated my kids, especially when they chose lives different from what we originally taught them their lives should look like. We now value our relationships with our children over what any institution tells us how things 'should be'.

So this isn’t a parenting book, but I highly recommend this poetry book from Mr. Rogers. We got it to read with our toddler and there are dozens of poems from his songs that teach kids important principles. Our daughter recently saw a video of him singing “Won’t you be my neighbor?” and really responded to his warmth and calmness. I realized I should have her watch the show. So much better than most of the children’s shows on these days! Daniel the Tiger is a current animated PBS show that is based on the puppet characters from Mr. Rogers’ Neighborhood, and I think it’s another good show for toddlers.

https://www.amazon.com/Beautiful-Day-Neighborhood-Poetry-Mister/dp/B07PMTDV2B/ref=nodl_

The Ghost of Eternal Polygamy

https://www.amazon.com/Ghost-Eternal-Polygamy-Haunting-Hearts/dp/0997458208/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&amp;keywords=the+ghost+of+eternal+polygamy&amp;qid=1625205440&amp;sr=8-1

From a comment on this post
"While 65% of current Mormons identify as Republican, only 34% of former Mormons do. Among the general public nearly the same – 35% – identify as Republicans, reinforcing the point that, having left the sacred tabernacle, former Mormons are not politically distinctive. However, it is not clear whether these former Mormons' political views have weakened their attachment to the LDS Church or whether the weak attachment affects their political views."

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1107027977/ref=redir\_mobile\_desktop?\_encoding=UTF8&amp;ref\_=cm\_cr\_arp\_mb\_bdcrb\_top

There are lots of 'green tea extract' supplements. No idea if they'd work for you. And I'm not recommending Amazon as a source, but for example

https://www.amazon.com/Green-Extract-Supplement-EGCG-Vitamin/dp/B00RH5I8U0

Oh.. I see. Well.. then fair mormon is then saying nothing about it, and LDS says very little. But the book on amazon has great reviews..

I've actually been using Sam Harris's Waking Up app, which follows the book fairly closely from what I understand. Before subscribing to that, I was using this one, though. It has a free introductory course and then it's pretty cheap to use the other full meditation courses ($10, I think?).

By giving a few hundred dollars to a person in a poor country, you can double their living standard and maybe save their life. That will do far more to improve human welfare than almost anything you do for your rich (in global terms) neighbors (though I agree about prioritizing family). It's not about saving the world; it's about ensuring that your charitable efforts do the most good possible. William McAskill has a great book on this which I highly recommend (Doing Good Better).

I suggest starting at the start. Hole up and read yourself some philosophy and not someones take on philosophy but the actual philosophy. Read Plato's Apology and Euthyphro (at the least), Aristotle's the Nicomachean Ethics, and others from the east and the west, modern and ancient. They aren't going to give you so much in the way of absolute answers, Socrates is the wisest of the Greeks because he knows that he knows nothing; but they will give you the questions.

Once you know the questions and how others have looked at them then you can try to figure out how you want to look at them and live your life.

Again, I strongly suggest taking the time to read Euthyphro and the Apology. If you don't want to or they don't make sense to you then I can point other resources that may be of help to you in navigating where you are.

Just wanted to put this out there. It is a really interesting read. https://www.amazon.com/Scattering-Saints-Schism-Within-Mormonism/dp/1934901024/ref=mp_s_a_1_5?crid=ST23TLHCI4WW&amp;keywords=john+hamer+mormon&amp;qid=1671342518&amp;sprefix=john+hamer+mormon%2Caps%2C89&amp;sr=8-5

I am fascinated by this group even though I feel a lot of it isn’t in my framework of understanding.

The most gnostic mormon that I know of is former September Six excommunicant Maxine Hanks, who joined the gnostic church before rejoining Mormonism, and kept a lot of her gnostic beliefs as she saw a lot of them within a Mormon framework. I believe she shares some of her beliefs in this video.

Cheryl Bruno is another person that I would say fits the bill. She just co-wrote a book about Mormonism and masonry called Method Infinite. She did an AMA here a while ago, along with her co-author and expressed that the western esoteric parts of Mormonism is what kept her coming back.

You might be interested in The Atheist Handbook to the Old Testament by Dr. Josh Bowen. Volume 2 came out, though I've only gotten through vol. 1. Listened to it on a flight. Great narrator.

"Acquiring the Mind of Christ" by Sergius Bowyer is a book I can't recommend highly enough:

https://www.amazon.com/Acquiring-Mind-Christ-Embracing-Orthodox/dp/0990502996

If you're really serious about finding out whether Joseph practiced polygamy or not you need to read this book...it will blow your mind! It's free as a Kindle download...

I guess it depends on whose list you are looking at. Todd Compton’s list is the one I refer to the most. Hales’ list is not bad either. Both have found enough documentation to connect JS with the women on the lists (marriages/sealings). Keep in mind, Nauvoo polygamy was very secretive. The practice was constantly denied. We are fortunate to have as much documentation as we do.

I highly recommend checking out <em>The Mysteries of Godliness: A History of Mormon Temple Worship</em> by David John Buerger. You'll find a lot of good info on the development of both the temple endowment and the garment.

The most intelligent of us are more capable of justifying their ‘mistakes’ and fortifying their positions, regardless of rational.

Mistakes Were Made But Not By Me

Why People Believe Weird Things

> but that quote and the rest of the article from your link don't support your assertion that "it almost certainly wasn't because he was gay."

Well, if you have some time and are interested (and aren't fully committed to the hate-crime narrative), you might find this book to be interesting. It's by a gay journalist who studied the case (including conducting his own interviews and research) for 13 years:

The Book of Matt

https://www.amazon.com/Teachings-Doctrine-Eternal-Lives/dp/1934537969/ref=nodl_?dplnkId=fd7b86c4-521b-4055-a87b-b72c6acef7e6 I bought this book a few years back and it appears to me to be an exhaustive collection of scriptures, sermons, letters, teachings of church leaders regarding this topic.

https://www.amazon.com/Hate-Crime-Hoax-Lefts-Campaign/dp/1621577783/ref=sr_1_1?crid=K4R3T2SQFQ00&amp;keywords=Hate+Crime+Hoax&amp;qid=1669221635&amp;sprefix=hate+crime+hoax%2Caps%2C156&amp;sr=8-1

There are organizations that track these things. The demand for hate crimes exceeds the supply so the left creates more. You followed the Juicy Smollet case right?

Sorry. You lost me with the first assertion: "The original church established by Joseph Smith was an authentic copy of the New Testament church."

For one, I don't think Christ ever established "A Church." That seems to be an invention of later decades.

Secondly, the "restoration" evolved significantly over the lifetime of JS and it would be hard to pin down the point at which the greatest correlation could exist. For example, priesthood authority, including the offices, changed dramatically over that time. The nature of God, as taught by JS, initially matched Methodist modalism (as seen in the BoM and first First Vision accounts) to corporeal henotheism. (There are probably more sophisticated ways to describe this.)

Third, (related to the first) the credibility of the New Testament must be established. Many New Testament books have dubious or incorrect authorship. Of the remaining, one must determine a method for identifying credible attributes of "the true church," as well as a method for arbitrating discrepancies. Richard Carrier's "On the Historicity of Jesus" provides a framework around which to structure an argument in favor of Christian literalism and Biblical historicity.

If we take the New Testament as a given, the first and second issues must first be addressed.

In spite of all this, it is clear that the LDS Church has dramatically changed since its origins. The Book of Mormon, on which a theological basis is presumed, actually has very little to do with the doctrine and structure of the modern church. It is only used for moral lessons. The same might also be said for other restoration scripture.

Many of us here would be happy to provide a very substantial list. Much of which is online. If you want some really old stuff https://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Latter_Day_Saints_(Bookshelf) has quite a few of the older books. (Those being majority faith-promoting)

When referencing this topic I always think "Blood Atonement and the Origin of Plural Marriage a Discussion" by Joseph Feilding Smith is worth a glance through. An online copy is available at https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/50535

> They aren't clarifying comments but reference the book in question as their underlying authority.

Not really. The first quote was a "Moroni told me..." moment, and the second was "this book teaches...". Really, read the letter before you start trying to discredit it. You may have some good observations to support your bias, but you should read the thing before you start with those assumptions.

> I was also informed concerning the aboriginal inhabitants of this country [America], and shown who they were, and from whence they came;...

There's really no room to claim that Joseph just didn't understand his own book. He claims supporting evidence from God (JSH adds Moroni) to support his position.

> Again, your position is dependent on the book being a work of fantasy

My position on Joseph not lying about what he was trying to teach or the claims of the religion he started. Whether these statements are true are completely seperate from whether the Book is fiction or not. I say author because I believe it is, but it doesn't have to be for Joseph to have still made these claims about the words of God through his angels.

Historically, individuals were allowed to enter into a marriage contract at a very young age. In Ancient Rome, the appropriate minimum age was regarded as 14 for males and 12 for females. When Rome became Christianized, these age minimums were adopted into the ecclesiastical law of the Catholic Church. This canon law governed most marriages in Western Europe until the Reformation. When England broke away from the Catholic Church, the Anglican Church carried with it the same minimum age requirements for the prospective bride and groom. The minimum age requirements of 12 and 14 were eventually written into English civil law. By default, these provisions became the minimum marriage ages in colonial America. These common laws inherited from the British remained in force in America unless a specific state law was enacted to replace them (see “Marriage Law,” Encyclopædia Britannica 2005; http://www.britannica.com).

While Roman, Catholic, English, and early American law may have allowed marriage at 12 for girls and 14 for boys, many questioned the advisability of such early unions. Researchers and policymakers around the turn of the twentieth century recognized that teens may be especially ill-prepared to assume the familial responsibilities and financial pressures associated with marriage.1 As a result of the changing economic and social landscape of the United States, in the latter part of the nineteenth century and throughout the twentieth century, individual states began to slowly raise the minimum legal age at which individuals were allowed to marry. In the United States, as in most developed countries, age restrictions have been revised upward so that they are now between 15 and 21 years of age.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3000061/

>The number of high councilors is scripturally mandated, D&C 102. Though the purpose and authority of the council has changed over time, I don’t think they can get away with changing the number.

But they've already gutted D&C 102, in terms of the main focus of that section -- being involved with disciplinary councils

>Lots of old righteous guys to chose from. Stake presidents have had the responsibility to review patriarchal blessings for as long as I have known.

Maybe. It needs to be a very "spiritually mature" person (as the church would put it); lots of downsides to "strange" patriarchal blessings. And I do wonder how easy it is to find someone to fulfill this calling in the Philippines or Peru or Norway. (But I agree, not so much of an issue in the Mormon Corridor.)

But the main issue for me on this is not so much manpower (it is just one person after all). It just seems that in 2022, the whole idea of a patriarch (other than a person's natural father) seems . . . stranded . . . theologically. (Just as had happened with the Presiding Patriarch by the 1980s.)

1. My beloved child coming out as LGBTQIA after a suicide attempt. Realizing on a very personal level how efded up, harmful, unloving, unaccepting and WRONG the supposed "One True Church" is, which is literally tearing families apart, giving our children no hope and making them believe the only solution is ending their life!!! Realizing I am expected to choose The Church over my child. NOT okay!! Doing a deep dive into the Church's history regarding LGBTQIA read Tabernacles of Clay]. Joined a support group of Mormon LGBTQIA and ally families, cognitive dissonance grew as I learned the true consequences of Mormon Doctrine and culture.

2. Church employment. [The closer one gets to the heart of this organization, the more dysfunctional, creepy, and truly soul crushing you discver the church is]

3. Deep dive into Church history reading official sources ... SAINTS and Gospel Topics Essays]. All the gaslighting to try to tell me these new stories and admissions have just been known and taught as truth all along my past 50+ years of life?!? NO, THEY WERE NOT! J.S. true history. Brigham Young true history... nauseating. Finally read more sources, CES Letter, BH Roberts investigation of the Book of Mormon [and subsequent cover-up], watched Mormon Stories and other YouTube channels... more deep dives. The Truth continually keeps revealing itself!!

   ---

   I have irreconcilable differences with this Church Corporation. I can see now how it has lied, manipulated, betrayed and abused me and my family and all my generations of pioneer ancestors. I must stop the cycle, reclaim my life and protect my family!!

If you want to go deep, a new book came out last month called <em>Method Infinite</em>. It lays out extensively all the connections between JS and Freemasonry. Well, I shouldn't say all, because one of the authors said she had like 500 more pages of material that the editor made her cut 😂

I own it on kindle ($10). The paperback is only $14.95.

The section is "B for Brass" (he goes through all 26 letters). In short:

• He mentions the problem of considering the Pentateuch a "book" before it was really compiled into such
• Writing on brass (or any metal, particularly a codex is anachronistic
• He crunches some simple numbers on the density of bronze, calculates a minimum page thickness (0.016 in), and the relative density of Egyptian and Hebrew (just in case) for the text of the pentateuch. He concludes the minimum weight would be 505 pounds.

> Just imagine Zoram and Nephi hauling a book that weighs as much as a large vending machine through the streets of Jerusalem at night, and not even having a furniture dolly to help them. Then Nephi drops all five hundred pounds to tackle Zoram! That only includes the weight of the Five Books of Moses.

The page is here. /u/mithryn, if this bothers you, tell me and I'll delete. I feel like it's more likely to drum up a sale of the book or two, which I thoroughly enjoyed.

• He goes on to estimate some additional geneology, additional prophets such as Zenos and Zenock. He guesses the actual weight at a half a ton. He points out it would take 4 camels to carry that kind of weight.
• He goes on to talk about tarnishing, unlikelihood of this happening in Egyptian, the plausibility, etc.

>interstellar, maniacs hailing from another solar system

When you start to substitute modern words for mythical concepts, it starts to look ridiculous. Substituting "interstellar" or "outer space" for "heaven" is technically correct but destroys the magic. Richard Carrier's Jesus from Outer Space is a shocking title, but where else would Jesus be? (Unless he is an interdimensional being, but that would just require you to wear an aluminum foil hat.)

Substituting "sperm" for "seed" in D&C 132 is a bit jarring too. Gina Colvin did a modernized reading of this section and it sounds much more shocking than the semi-Biblical language.

I am over 50 and have watched Mormonism doctrine change over time. If you want to really understand the evolution, I would suggest reading this book:

https://www.amazon.com/This-My-Doctrine-Development-Theology/dp/1589581032

It used to be distributed by Deseret and is no longer is. It was written by a retired BYU professor.

Let me give you an example that is illustrated by the book.

The Book of Abraham has the preexistence as currently taught in LDS doctrine which is we lived in the spirit world (not Earth) before coming to Earth to live our mortal lives. The temple also teaches this.

The book of Moses has us created spiritually on Earth and then we became mortal. So according to the book of Moses account, the Earth creation account you listen to in the temple would be a spiritual one and not a physical one as currently taught.

We know this because in Moses chapter 3, man is the first flesh or first living mortal flesh placed on Earth yet the creation story in chapter 2 has plants and animals placed on the Earth first. The reason Moses 3 says this is the creation story in Moses 2 was a spiritual one when first conceived by Smith but was later changed to a physical one. This spiritual conception was a viewpoint held by many Christians in Joseph Smith's day. The reason this happened is Moses came from the Joseph Smith Translation of the bible in 1830 while the Book of Abraham was published over a decade later. This time gap between written scriptures exposes the change. In this example, the morphing of the doctrine has created inconsistencies in the scriptures. What was "revealed" about the preexistence has changed.

The book looks at the development of doctrine from a historical perspective for thousands of years and then gives a view of where Mormon doctrine stands today versus other Christian viewpoints.

Notice how the only mainstream LDS apologists who claim the moon goddess altar is the BOM NHM have also

1. Never actually been to the site.

2. Don’t speak or read Arabic or the proto languages of the region.

3. Write books on LDS encounters with UFOs. Looking at you Warren Aston! https://www.amazon.com/Mormon-Looks-Aliens-UFOs-ebook/dp/B009KWN89O/ref=mp_s_a_1_6?crid=GQWBGHE53I0L&amp;keywords=lds+ufo&amp;qid=1659616518&amp;sprefix=lds+ufos%2Caps%2C138&amp;sr=8-6

Deseret Book used to carry this book by Haleigh Everts (now Markar). She left the church and then returned. Her return was celebrated with a book, social media following, youtube channel, etc.

https://www.amazon.com/Left-Mormon-Church-Came-Back/dp/1462121780

But then she learned information that was new to her and left again and appeared on Mormon Stories.

I come from an evangelical background. Some of the biggest differences that I noticed on a cultural level were:

• Focus on attending church and activities as a requirement. Many evangelicals view church and religious activities as one of many ways to draw close to god, as opposed to a commandment to attend.
• Media: There's crossover, but it seems like a lot of LDS families consume LDS media, where I grew up with Adventures in Oddessy (Focus on the Family), Veggie Tales, non LDS animated biblical stories, etc.
• Bible study groups. This is a huge thing culturally for Evangelicals.
• Children's bibles seemed to be a lot bigger in evangelical spaces.
• The cultural tradition of brunch on Sundays, or coffee and snacks before and after church. My YSA did potlucks after church on Sunday fairly regularly, and that's the closest I've seen in LDS spaces.
• I saw more distrust of science and education in Evangelical spaces. Things like fossils, therapy, the value of college.
• I also saw a lot more discussion of hell, damnation, and sin in Evangelical spaces. If I had to summarize, I'd say that the fear in LDS culture is often in missed opportunities, where the fear in Evangelical culture seemed to be much more violent, fear of eternal torture and damnation.

I am in the middle of this book:

https://www.amazon.com/This-My-Doctrine-Development-Theology/dp/1589581032

It is becoming very clear that all doctrine has changed. If there is unchanging doctrine, we have not yet received it.

I would. I have two talks in my mind that I would give.

Talk #1 - Salvation through the atonement.

The core element of the talk would be to point out that on one end of the spectrum mormons mock evangelicals for believing in "too easy grace". That all you have to do is say you believe in christ, accept him in your life and you are saved. Nothing else you need to do.

On the other end of the spectrum you have mormons who strive to live their lives to perfect. Never sin. Kind of like Wendy Nelson's book, "the not even once club".

https://www.amazon.com/Not-Even-Once-Club/dp/1609073371

This is the equivalent of striving to NEVER need the atonement.

From a religious perspective both are extreme views. The intent of the talk would be to push back on the perfectionism and works-based culture rampant in mormonism.

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Talk #2 - If you were accused of being a Christian would there be enough evidence to convict you?

The purpose of this talk would be to emphasize the teachings of Christ that resonate with me, even as a non believer. Focusing on cherry picked verses of Matthew 5 to 7.

Judge not that ye be not judged, kind of stuff.

The core of this talk would be to try and wake people up that they use the name of Christ, but actually don't study what he taught on how to live your life. Their concept of being a christian is based upon obeying church leaders as opposed to a spiritual relationship with the divine.

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I know I am coming across as judgmental in both of these talks. But I have a perspective I would like to share.

Check these titles out at Amazon. After, by Greyson at Amazon shows a few pages of his book. The introduction is a quick and interesting read and tells why he became a NDE researcher for the last 50 years. Let us know what you think after reading that part if you do. Thanks for your comment.

Evidence of Life After Death by Jeffrey Long, MD

After by Bruce Greyson, MD

I would also add Quinn's [Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power](https://www.amazon.com/Mormon-Hierarchy-Origins-Power-ebook/dp/B01MXLD04O) as an indispensable resource on Joseph Smith and the early church.

Ok, so Bushman and Brodie should be your first must reads.

If you like Harry Potter, but wish it was real: Mormonism and the Magic World View

https://www.amazon.com/Early-Mormonism-Magic-World-View/dp/1560850892

My other post was too political. I think enough has been answered on United Order vs communism and how they are different. Good book on helping the poor more that I once saw at a BYU bookstore is here: I loved it it aligned microlending with the BY early Utah communities: https://www.amazon.com/United-Zion-Principles-uniting-eliminate/dp/0970661908. Very eye opening on how they worked together to build industries.

What I think is missing from this above on the attractiveness of conservatism for latter-day Saints is not a moral issue, but for members of the church on the relationship of the Federal Government and US States (ie. states rights). This was a big part of the settlement of the Mountain West (plural marriage, Utah statehood, Utah War) and Utah is still aghast on impact today on the political culture of Utah today (Federal Lands in Utah, Abortion defined with recent ruling and the Bundy Oregon standoff). Full disclosure I am happy and left leaning.

Catholics probably still should tbh. A study[1] from several years ago found that only 7% of baptized Catholics are actually practicing (ie, go to Mass weekly, go to Confession at least once a year, are generally involved at their church).

[1] Source of the 7% stat: https://www.amazon.com/Four-Signs-Dynamic-Catholic/dp/1937509664

Wearing them only in the temple has been discussed before, which to me says there is precedent for it to be discussed again.

I need to look up the exact page number again, but the original reference for that discussion I'm pretty sure I found in this book: Development of LDS Temple Worship, 1846-2000 https://www.amazon.com/Development-LDS-Temple-Worship-1846-2000/dp/1560852119/ref=sr_1_1

I have read plenty of modern scholarship about paganism and Christianity, and most if not all of what you believe about all of this is not true. It was theories spun by Protestants to bash on Catholics and accuse them of "impure Christianity." One of the greatest scholars of religion, Jonathan Z. Smith, has an entire book complaining about this.

I have really enjoyed this book. Very informative and easy to read.

A History of the Bible: The Book and Its Faiths https://www.amazon.com/dp/0143111205/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_H46SJSNJS9SQ6A4R1YYN?_encoding=UTF8&amp;psc=1

Interestingly, in 1985 Monson published a book with his favorite quotations, and the Goethe quote is in there on page 164:

>"When we take people," thou wouldst say, "merely as they are, we make them worse; when we treat them as if they were what they should be, we improve them as far as they can be improved."

https://smile.amazon.com/Favorite-Quotations-Collection-Thomas-Monson/dp/0877477493/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=thomas+monson+favorite+quotations&amp;qid=1652160802&amp;sr=8-1

Out of all the religions of the whole world, Mormonism is the only one that...

...the only one that I was born into.

After that all the reasons are simply confirmation bias. Example: The 17 points of the true church is just a list of things that the church teachings phrased as some kind of authoritative list that other churches have but secretly hide because they don't measure up.

And I can hear you say, aha, but are there not converts to Mormonism...yes, and I think Steven Hassan [Combating Cult Mind Control] https://www.amazon.com/dp/0967068827/) did a better job chronicalling the process by which people are drawn into high demand religions. (And there is nothing unique about how it happens)

If you want an example of a secular author's book on a Latter Day Saint topic, The Mormon Missionary: Who IS That Knocking at My Door? is perhaps a good example of one. The author was intensely interested in documenting this sociological feature of a culture not his own; he's not antiMormon, has a lot of respect for them, but is also never going to become one.

If Pynakker wrote a book I think I'd buy it, it would probably be quite interesting!

That said, there are also groups outside the church that are finding Heavenly Mother in the translation of various apocrypha. Margret Barker, who often is invited to speak at BYU and other church related events is an accomplished Methodist Theologian and has written extensively on the topic of "a Mother in Heaven". https://www.amazon.com/Mother-Lord-Lady-Temple/dp/0567528154/ref=sr\_1\_1?crid=228KNJ2QV7E1L&amp;keywords=margaret+barker&amp;qid=1648989044&amp;sprefix=margaret+barker%2Caps%2C103&amp;sr=8-1

I think it is simply that official church doctrine on Heavenly Mother will only come through revelation to the brethren. I am quite confident that there are many who have sought to know their Heavenly Mother through personal prayer (to Heavenly Father) and study and those individuals likely understand more than the brethren.

That said, there are also a lot of people who think they know and are way off base. I am confident that if you seek her, you will find her and that doing so is worth the effort. Yet, doing so is likely such a powerful and beautiful spiritual experience that it is not something you would likely run around telling others about other than maybe those who you are closest too in life.

One place to start is the writings of Margret Barker, who is a remarkable theologian and has done all kinds of research (including translations of apocrypha) which has naturally resulted in a lot of information coming out on the role of women in the Gospel in ancient times and of course Heavenly Mother.

Here is a great book to start with if you are interested. https://www.amazon.com/Mother-Lord-Lady-Temple/dp/0567528154/ref=sr_1_1?crid=228KNJ2QV7E1L&amp;keywords=margaret+barker&amp;qid=1648989044&amp;sprefix=margaret+barker%2Caps%2C103&amp;sr=8-1

There is so much out there being discovered related to Heavenly Mother that I am certain that revelation will be coming soon to the brethren that will clarify or add to our doctrine. It is inevitable.

You could use something like this.

Men Shirt Stays Adjustable Elastic Shirt Garter Shirts Holder with Non-slip Locking Clamps for Police Military https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B07QQWVFP7/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_i_0NHNRBD2HQ95TBEFE65S

1. Develop a consistent sleep routine (wake up and go to sleep at the same time every day), practice good sleep hygiene (stop using electronics, wind down, make the room dark, etc.), get as many hours as your body needs (7+).
2. Eat nutrient/energy dense food.
3. Exercise 5-6 days a week.

I would HIGHLY recommend the book Why We Sleep, written by a sleep expert. It covers what happens to our brain while we sleep and why we might be tired during the day. He also has a TED Talk. You can treat the root cause of fatigue, not just mask the symptoms.

I'm not anti caffeine from a religious perspective, and will use it on long road trips or if being more alert is a safety issue, but the stimulation it gives you is not a free lunch. It only masks some of the symptoms of being tired without the benefits you'd normally get from sleep. Habitual use creates dependency and I prefer not to NEED something to function. Also, I'm grateful I never developed the habit, seeing all of my coworkers spending a lot of time and money on their coffee routine, I will continue to pass on developing the habit. Again, happy for them, with no value judgments!

In reply to myself, for the "down to about 200 AD" part I'd recommend Early Christian Fathers for some useful source material around the time of the shift from apostolic authority, to bishops' authority, to apostolic tradition.

Both of those questions are answered authoritatively in David J. Buerger's The Mysteries of Godliness which is a must-read for anyone remotely interested in these topics.

The closest I can think of is “Heart, Might, Mind, Strength.”

Got the idea from searching around and finding this: https://ldsbookstore.com/heart-might-mind-strength-vinyl-sticker

Edit: It’s a phrase from D&C 4:2.
I also found this abomination

As I started studying LDS history and theology with an open mind, rather than the conclusion pre-determined, I have often asked:

How could things have gotten this far?

As in, how could the problems have been ignored for so long and church teachings drifted so far from the historical record?

Recently I have been reading Richard Carrier's On the Historicity of Jesus. In spite of Carrier's penchant for explaining himself so well as to obscure his actual point, it is a fascinating book that applies Bayes probability theory to historical (or claimed historical) events. In doing so, he provides substantial contextual information that couches the Jesus narrative (Bible) within a coherent mythical tradition. (See Rank-Raglan Mythotype.)

My new question now supplants and undermines the previous:

How could Christianity have gotten to the point that ANYONE takes it as historical fact?

Questions:
Do you view Christ as a historical figure, mythologized historical figure, or a purely mythical character?

(The application of myth with respect to Joseph Smith and the LDS Church is a topic for another time.)

There is a phenomenal expansive LDS doctrinal concordance of all Apocryphal writings by Ken Peterson than just came out on Amazon. I don’t know if it’s in the rules here to post a link, but I’ll try it:

Mormon Doctrine in the Apocrypha: a Concordance of Teachings of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Extracanonical Writings https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08BVSVBVH/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_i_W0YCTVHB68HVHCD2G7A0

Take a look at this book (Sex & God) and I think it will really help you understand how you have been spiritually abused. That is the cause of your sadness. A follow-up would be combatting cult mind control.

&#x200B;

Sex & God: How Religion Distorts Sexuality

by Amazon.com

Learn more: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0970950543/ref=cm\_sw\_em\_r\_mt\_dp\_2J9DCT3E2E43VBVWEFPN

here's Wendys' seminal work:

a children's book that pushes toxic perfection. a club that shuts people out. a covenant path group of elites, not being good but bragging they followed a list of rules (covenants) and never had the more important reason for the rules transform their hearts.

Because the New Testament doesn't tell us who wrote any of it. Authorial attribution is a function of Christian tradition.

See? This is why it is completely pointless to argue about what's in the New Testament -- the oldest book can only be dated to several decades after Jesus's lifetime at the earliest (with most dating to even later) and there is zero credible attribution for any of the authors. We don't know who wrote any of it, precisely when they wrote it, and what motives they might have had. But we do know that a number of the books in the New Testament are clearly pseudepigraphic works, which raises a whole host of concerns on its own.

This is a fundamentally pointless exercise where the important information is entirely unknowable and therefore the conclusions we can draw are limited at best and worthless at worst.

If you haven't already, I would recommend reading Who Wrote the Bible to give you a base understanding in historical biblical criticism. Its pretty eye opening.

It seems that you may not have seriously studied this topic because the kinds of sweeping absolutes you're offering in this thread are ahistorical, anachronistic, and ignore virtual mountains of extremely credible contemporary evidence to the contrary. The two largest Mormon denominations do not make the claims you are making because they easily fall under even the slightest bit of critical scrutiny.

It may be worth taking a break from the Internet and engage with actual peer-reviewed historical scholarship that analyzes actual evidence about how polygamy developed and was practiced by Smith, the provenance of the revelation that serves as D&C 132 (spoiler -- its pretty rock solid), and the many, many women who proactively volunteered that they had sexual relations with Joseph Smith. I would recommend starting with Mormon Polygamy and In Sacred Loneliness. One who is not willing to put the work in is probably not willing to accept the answers available.

Nobody is really served arguing with you unless you provide compelling reasons why the evidence and conclusions that are widely accepted by the Mormon history community (I mean, really, there is zero substantive scholarly debate about these things you are so certain about) are somehow so blatantly wrong while the completely discredited fringe views presented here are correct.

You don't want male opinions? Look.. think about it...do you want to own and control your hisbands sexuality? When you don't put out you are effectively forbidding sex. This is gonna lead to resentment and negative behaviors.

Take a look at this book. It goes into why you shouldn't try to be the gatekeeper over your spouses sexuality while still maintaining the boundaries of monogamy.

Sex & God: How Religion Distorts Sexuality https://www.amazon.com/dp/0970950543/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_glt_i_KJ18FQBY8KGV76T7B97H?_encoding=UTF8&amp;psc=1

I haven't read it yet, though I do have the ebook, but you might enjoy The Book of Mormon for the Least of These, Volume 1. I think it explores exactly the theology that you would like to see.

These are essential reading if you into the Mesoamerican model, absolute must reads: Brant Gardner's Second Witness: Analytical and Contextual Commentary on the Book of Mormon