If you are interested in learning 'what is Zen', please do not try do it through this subreddit. Get yourself some good books from masters who have spent years actually practicing.
Book suggestions: * Nothing Special - Charlotte Joko Beck * The Way of Zen - Alan Watts * Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind - Shunryu Suzuki * The Supreme Doctrine - Hubert Benoit (this is a difficult read) * Mindfulness in Plain English - Bhante Gunaratana (general Buddhism, but since Zen really embodies the heart of Buddhism, good books on Buddhism are good books on Zen) * Wherever you Go, There You Are - Jon Kabat Zinn
Hi! Welcome,
First: The standard advice for this sort of situation would be to find a local Zen centre or Zen group and talk to them. It doesn't matter the tradition: there's Chinese Chan, Japanese Zen, Korean Seon, and so forth…
Second: prepare for conflicting answers from this Reddit. We come from different backgrounds, some of us formally practicing Zen within our respective traditions, some taking a more independent route. That's great…
However, third, while you are no doubt aware of this, I'd like to take this chance to stress that it would be good to treat online forum Zen advice with great skepticism. While there is also good reason to be skeptical about people in Real Life, the online realm brings in a lot of extra risks and peculiarities:
These characteristics are also positives for online discussion. They can foster a kind of free dialogue and diversity of opinions that might be harder in the real world, but at the cost of extra dangers. Watch out! :-)
Fourth: My first introduction to Zen was through Brad Warner's Hardcore Zen which can be quite appealing if you're naturally suspicious of religious/spiritual talk. Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind is much beloved in the community, I think.
It's an interesting thing... who to trust.
This is on reason I talk about high school book reports... forget if the book is "true" or not... the book report, the account of and discussion about a book... that can clearly be true on it's own.
So I say book reports are the place to start.
The all-over-the-place quality of Green's translation of Zhaozhou seems like a winner to me.
https://www.amazon.com/Recorded-Sayings-Zen-Master-Joshu/dp/157062870X
Look what falls out of that:
You can trust your own book report if it can stand up to public scrutiny... as in... you'll know your book report's strengths and weaknesses, and by fixing the weaknesses, you'll have a position you can speak about coherently.
You can trust the other book reports on that book that you've read and discussed.
You have a reasonable basis for community via the people who have read and book reported that book.
If you buy this, then I have some other things to sell you:
And if you'll go that far, then the last step is:
It is impossible to be isolated. Once you put a hand out to take a hand, whether the hand of an author or the hand of a reporter, you are in a community.
Community is then a perspective. It's not something you have or don't have, it's something you acknowledge that was there all along.
I haven't read all of the article, but seeing the aggressive tone in both sides of these comments, I think we need a moderate voice here.
Apart from a few mentions that Jobs was authoritative, we don't know anything about him that would make him a bad person. Surely, applying the high moral standards of Buddhism, he probably was no buddha. But I wouldn't want to be the one being compared to that. Besides, I know a lot of people who probably would have done a lot worse in his position.
Let's keep in mind that not giving to charity and not actively supporting enlightenment in the community you can reach (which, in his case, is huge) doesn't mean he didn't mean well. As for his financial success: every person in this world is free to buy Apple products or not.
Finally, I want to throw in the theory that the aesthetics of Apple products is Steve Jobs' way of reminding the Western world that anything in this world is not just valued by its functionality. It is the contrast of form and function that has caused and still causes the polarization around Apple. Since we are in r/Zen, I recommend reading Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. It touches the very subject.
If you haven't already, I would recommend reading Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, as it talks about a lot of this type of stuff and is a rather good read (or listen on audio book as I did it). It goes through Aristotle and Plato, and form vs shape, that dualism, and even some into "the will" that you mention, all the while comparing the western to the eastern, and most importantly, and what I like the most about it, is how the two line-up/compare.
I really enjoy listening to Alan Watts. There are lots of his videos on the interwebs, he has a very western outlook on all things zen. And he is funny. http://www.reddit.com[/r/AlanWatts](/r/AlanWatts)
Also a friend recommended Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind, I ordered it but havent received it yet, but I have listened to a bit of the audio book. It seems like a good way to get into zazen meditation.
I am also a zengineer... ;) I also like the Tao Te Ching and really just about anything Tao related.
Suzuki-roshi's Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind. I still think this is one of the easier books to get into Zen. But even if he has no inclination to get into Zen, the book does help a lot. Alternatively Lama Surya Das' Letting Go of the Person You Used to Be.
There are some interesting threads in this vein.
Not so sure about Zen texts, however in the Edo period of Japanese history, men were often crossdressers/acted as women even sexually as a cultural norm.
Kukai (Kobo Daishi), the founder of Koyason Shingon Butsukyo (esoteric tantric buddhism in Japan) was very much and openly gay.
To second other comments here, Many Buddhist Deities are androgynous and/or have both breasts and penises. This is their universality personified. Although the historic reality of Bhikkus and Bhikkunis shows great sexism, the ideal is one of gender/sexual unification in enlightenment.
I honestly think looking into this line of inquiry will yield interesting reflective opportunities. Many of this day and age have a very privileged or idealized view of current gender theory and how the 'facts' lay out. Our modern terms are working ideas, not set in stone.
The Red Thread by Bernard Faure is a scholarly text that sheds light on sexuality in Buddhism.
Unfortunately (or fortunately!) you may have to do and compile your own research in this regard, as "LGBTQIAPK+" is a modern invention and getting so complex as to make itself null.
You are an individual, and no Identitarian group can take that individuality away from you. I hope some of these sources and ideas can lead you to show the world more about your perspective from an historically informed vantage point.
That's just more knee-jerk anti-Japanese bigotry from someone who lives in basement and has tried to disavow his claim to have once in his life experienced "clarity" while looking at a tree.
By the way, your experience of "no-thought" or muga ichi nen ho between two breaths on seeing the tree was authentic -- though extremely short-lived -- but since you had no Zen ability or training of precisely the kind that the samurai cultivated to the finest and most subtle degree, you immediately turned it into an object of your thinking. That's what's led you wrong ever since.
It's why you crazily believe you can get the Zen transmission by reading books and thinking about them intellectually. Your delusional mind is never going to wake up like that. It just stuffs itself with books and then spits out opinions!
The only way to penetrate through is by actual effort on your part, and in this sense reading a book can be helpful (but only if and when it inspires you to make an effort, and also directs you the right way). For example: https://books.google.com/books?id=285lqWlQpq4C&pg=PA121&lpg=PA121&dq=muga+no+ichi+muga+ichi+nen&source=bl&ots=LlhnbgDf9v&sig=p2h9_PrKgrvwLd3SAs7yTCBB8kM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=dmXyVL_KCYm3ogTkgILoDA&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAg#v...
Rinzai stresses koan work leading to kensho while Soto stresses just sitting in the belief that you are already a Buddha and sitting just helps to bring it out. To simplify even more: Rinzai is kanna Zen while Soto is mokushō Zen.
> He sits down cross-legged with his back against a wall, his tongue glued to the roof of his mouth, completely still and motionless.
Sounds like the wrong way to meditate, so I agree with the Zen master: if you think you will gain insight of your nature merely by arranging your body in a very particular, highly contrived way, you are deluding yourself.
More generally, I read one book so far*, and it was full of quotes supporting meditation and regarding it as central to the practice of Zen. Then I come here, and you show me a few vague quotes that may be somewhat critical of some forms of meditation.
Somehow a bunch of you on this forum decided that meditation is the enemy, and you are fighting against it tooth and nail. However, your own sources do not support you. In fact, they outright contradict you.
You made a bunch of similar arbitrary decisions, such as "Zen is not Buddhism". These decisions appear delusional and self-centered, contradicting known facts, yet you defend them fanatically.
At this point, it really is time to stop referring to this collection of intellectual whims and caprices as "Zen". It's just quackery promoted by a bunch of kooks on r/Zen.
EDIT: * Should mention I read several books, including Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind, Three Pillars of Zen, Zen Training - all classics, reputable Zen guides for Westerners, all denounced by this subreddit as Not Zen.
> Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind
Yeah, I already read that book. And some others (Three Pillars of Zen, Zen Flesh Zen Bones, Zen Training). Then I came to r/Zen, and was told these books are, of course (repeat after me...): Not Zen.
After spending months studying Buddhism and Zen, I know where to get quality information from trustworthy sources. Unfortunately, most newbies aren't in this position. I certainly wasn't.
"Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind" by Shunryu Suzuki is a nice, simple book.
Pretty much anything by Alan Watts is great for an introduction to Zen, especially his audio lectures.
Robert Anton Wilson kind of eased me into Zen, and he can be very non-traditional, but he is very funny and understandable.
Zen is just about impossible to be guided through. You just sort of have to be guided away from your thoughts and notions, and eventually it falls into place. Koans may be a good place to start. Or read a book like Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind - it's not as story-like and entertaining as the Tao of Pooh, but it's a great overview of Zen practice and philosophy.
It is not only possible but necessary to practice meditation on your own. However, finding a good community or ("sangha") to sit with prove tremendously supportful. If it is led by a monk or otherwise transmitted teacher, so much the better.
I'm ambivalent about reading about Zen. There are some philosophical concepts that you should familiarize yourself with but that's only 1%. The other 99% is sitting regularly, facing yourself and the universe no matter what.
Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind is a classic. Hardcore Zen is much more nerdy and accessible. But once you've gotten an idea of what you are doing, the books need to move into the background.
Cult dynamics, would that be stuff like, for example, this "Zenmar" guy I read about who pretends to be a master of a new brand of Zen, and at one point convinced a confused woman to send him cookies baked with menstrual blood, as some bizarre fetishistic ritual, and also wrote stuff like this:
> Please watch out my Flower wife. I received your package today and looked at your pictures. I can see why men hanker for you (I dread to think of how many men are masturbating to you image having seen you at work). Their will/desire to have sex with you is a powerful 'spin agent'. But with every sexual encounter, one becomes a little like a dirty mop too. You clean them--but get dirty in the process. > > [...] Spiritual love proves not only the stronger but the most healing. You yearn of me, but actually have me, because the more of me, is an infintie field of light. In the long run you will heal (heal means 'whole'). Laura, I indulge myself with these letters to you and to other souls. Each letter to you is special, it is more than any man could ever give you.
That's some pretty frighteningly classic cult dynamics, right?
ok, let's see what it says about zen:
> A Japanese school of Mahayana Buddhism emphasizing the value of meditation and intuition.
Zen Buddhism was introduced to Japan from China in the 12th century and has had a profound cultural influence. The aim of Zen is to achieve sudden enlightenment (satori) through meditation in a seated posture (zazen), usually under the guidance of a teacher and often using paradoxical statements (koans) to transcend rational thought
>
>origins
>Japanese, literally 'meditation', from Chinese chán 'quietude', from Sanskrit dhyāna 'meditation'.
great, i'll order that dictionary for my neighbor!
If you can afford it, get JC's as well.
T. Cleary's translation is, in format, the second best translation after Blyth.
But JC's translation is just better.
I added him to the wiki, and linked to his book Crow With No Mouth on Amazon it's pretty good! Much of his writing is available on Terebess if you don't mind going there.
Wikipedia is actually a highly accurate. Sure, there are some mistakes... but otherwise, quite reliable.
Also, why don't you all just read a book, like "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind" or "Taking the Path of Zen" to know whatsup?
I like D.T. Suzuki along with Alan Watts. For me, Suzuki's "Introduction to Zen Buddhism" is very profound as well as easy to follow. The next on my to-read list is Shunryu Suzuki's (different Suzuki) "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind". I'm reading Ram Dass's "Journey of Awakening" (also simple and to the point) now and he quotes "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind" quite a bit.
In reference to the argument going on in this thread, the idea that a certain hierarchical school or practice is a better path to enlightenment than another, is silly to me. I'm not nearly as practiced as some people, but the one ground shaking insight that I've been able to make is that the true Zen spirit is in everything, so there is no wrong place to look.
Happy birthday, lin_seed. Everyone should get a belated one or two.
My present is just the info I'm considering getting a new light wand.
You might want to check out Zen Comics by Ioanna Salajan. It takes classic koans and puts them into comic strip form.
Fun Fact: at one point, my most upvoted post on r/zen was an image I shared from this book, while simultaneously my most downvoted post on r/zen was me recommending this book to someone asking for a simple introduction to read about zen.
The Mountains & Rivers Order has a recommended reading list that's categorised by "stages" here: https://zmm.mro.org/training/recommended-reading/
Pretty much every book that's been recommended to you by others in these comments is on that list (except for Alan Watts).
Here are the "stage one" recommended books:
Mumonkan is "Stage Four". Huang Po and Blue Cliff Record are "Stage Five".
Anyway, might be a helpful reading list to put some of the recommendations in the comments in some context.
>The only stark difference between this and hardcore ewk-style Zennists, as far as I can tell, is an emphasis on clear, explicit plan to advance one's practice: meditation practice.
If you like Goldstein (and I do) and want a 'clear explicit plan to advance one's practice' you will enjoy Daniel Ingram's meditation guide <em>Mastering the Core Teachings of The Buddha</em>
>Nearly all of my earlier writings have been compiled, edited, expanded and integrated into a work called Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha, An Unusually Hardcore Dharma Book. I think it is one of the more practical and technically detailed manuals for high-level insight and concentration practice available, and its maps of spiritual terrain and advice for navigating in unusual territory are world-class. — Daniel Ingram
The people keen on Daniel hang out at r/Streamentry
They both have their strong points. I like Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind because, while purportedly authored only by Shunryu Suzuki, it is actually a reworking of the raw material of his rambling tape-recorded talks by a Heideggerean philosopher. This gives it a special "flavor" that is unique in the literature. I like The Three Pillars of Zen because it introduced the Vijnana Bhairava Tantra.
The most Zen food is takuan. The most Zennist person to ever live is also Takuan. The building with the most Zen is probably the one you're in right now. Movie theaters are the ultimate in Zen. Tennis is definitely Zen. Listen to the soft resonant whack of the balls on a summer morning. That's Zen incarnate. Drinking green tea doesn't make you Zen. Drinking it the Zen way makes you Zen. If you want to convert to Zen, you should read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, because it has nothing to do with Zen, then forget it completely. In Zen we pray to Bodhisattvas who do not really exist. It is Zen to pray to that which does not exist, knowing that it does not exist, and to do it with total faith & conviction. The Zen stance on abortion is that killing is sometimes necessary, and it doesn't fuck up your Zen. The only thing that fucks up your Zen is being a jerk of some kind.
Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind not a book about Zen. That's a book about Buddhism, specifically the Buddhism of a man named Dogen. His followers say "Zen" all the time, but they take it back later.
Mumonkan is a book about Zen. Read it, then tell me if they are the same thing.
Do what works for you. All traditions point at the same thing. I am in a soto lineage that does koans. It works for me. I'd suggest that you look more for a teacher that speaks to your heart than trying to guess which style will suit you. Your intensity of practice is going to be the biggest impact on your practice. Find a place that catalyzes as intensity in you.
If you don't have many choices, just pick one and have an open mind.
And keep reading books. Lots of books. Here are my zen favorites: The Moon in a Dewdrop. The Three Pillars of Zen. The Mind of Clover. The Eye Never Sleeps. Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind.
Oho, you're in the US, that makes things a lot easier than if you were in, say, Romania or something! I see there's these guys in Princeton, and these guys in Montclair. Not sure how easy they are to get to for you, but at least there's a couple of centers within a few hours' drive (I think?).
As for books: The Three Pillars of Zen that was recommended in another comment here is a good starting point. (I'm slightly biased; it was my starting point, and Kapleau was my teacher's teacher's teacher.) You might also enjoy Shunryu Suzuki's "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind".
Don't read too much. Sit zazen.
You might find some of the discussions in /r/zen to be a little, uh, esoteric sometimes, too -- you might find /r/buddhism and /r/meditation helpful too, especially for the practicalities of regular meditation.
Ditto on Alan Watts and Tao Te Ching recommendations and MASSIVELY recommend Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind.
I first read it five years ago and now reread it at least once a year. It starts out a little dry but quickly picks up and is just beautiful, and a great introduction to zen.
Enjoy!
Hey guy,
Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind is a good one. It's sort of a collection of talks by a Japanese Zen master who went to America and started a Zen center in San Francisco and a monastery up in the Los Padres forest. Here's a kind of classic quote:
> When we inhale, the air comes into the inner world. When we exhale, the air goes out to the outer world. We say "inner world" or "outer world" but actually there is just one whole world… The air comes in and goes out like someone passing through a swinging door. If you think, "I breathe," the "I" is extra. There is no you to say "I."
Here is a very good page on how to do zazen. No music!
Sitting for five minutes practicing breath concentration is a great thing to do. Keep your enthusiasm! Do this practice daily.
Here's a page with some poems by Han-shan! I like this one:
> Cold rock, no one takes this road.
The deeper you go, the finer it is.
White clouds hang on high crags.
On Green Peak a lone gibbon’s cry.
What friends do I need?
I do what pleases me, and grow old.
Let face and body alter with the years,
I’ll hold to the bright path of mind.
Well, it's hard to explain Zen, especially over the internet, but you'll get the hang of it.
OK, OK, about four years ago, I started reading Gödel, Escher, Bach. When I finished it two years later (ha!), I went through the bibliography and found Zen Flesh, Zen Bones listed. (Hofstadter talks a bit about koans in GEB.) I'm still not very good at koaning, but I picked up Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind earlier this year, and I've been horribly attached to Zen ever since.
> No. I'm saying if you are going to study what they teach then do it directly. Don't take other people's word for it.
If you're not there, when they are talking, in their native language, then you are not studying it directly. Who knows what might have changed what is in the texts? Who knows what kind of subtle language errors might have come up? I'm, sure you could find out. When you read something that's been translated, you read it through a game of telephone. "Directly" means directly.
Here's oxford:
>With nothing or no one in between:
If I need a translator, that isn't directly. If I need to rely on an old mauscript of unknown legitimacy, that isn't directly. The claim "Cleary's Huang-Po book represents what Huang-po really said" is a faith based claim, unless you can confirm it, or deny it, based on evidence. And even then, you have faith that everything within that investigation is as it seems. Evil Daemon etc.
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/directly
That doesn't seem right. Are you referring to this part?
Curiously the word for "sit" (ts'o/zuo) is referred to as dhyana, as is zen, as is Zazen. So i am not sure what is going on there ...
And here's the Iliad. Homer rites gud.
More productively, here are some of Huineng's quotes in the Platform Sutra on the three bodies and four wisdoms, related to my earlier post:
> The three bodies are: the clear, pure Dharma-body, which is your nature; the perfect, full Reward-body, which is your wisdom; and the hundred thousand myriad Transformation bodies, which are your conduct. To speak of the three bodies as separate from your original nature is to have the bodies but not the wisdoms. To remember that the three bodies have no self-nature is to understand the four wisdoms of Bodhi.
-
> Three bodies complete in your own self-nature
> When understood become four wisdoms.
> While not apart from seeing and hearing
> Transcend them and ascend to the Buddha realm.
-
> To speak of the four wisdoms as separate from the three bodies is to have the wisdoms but not the bodies, in which case the wisdoms become nonwisdoms.
-
> The wisdom of the great, perfect mirror
> Is your clear, pure nature.
> The wisdom of equal nature
> Is the mind without disease.
> Wonderfully observing wisdom
> Is seeing without effort.
> Perfecting wisdom is
> The same as the perfect mirror.
As well, here is the refuge that Huineng teaches:
> I take refuge with the clear, pure Dharma-body of the Buddha within my own body.
> I take refuge with the hundred thousand myriad Transformation-bodies of the Buddha within my own body.
> I take refuge with the complete and full Reward body of the Buddha within my own body.
[](/u/realmaitreyabuddha)
I'd like to read that book. Reminds me of a great conversation between John Searle and Foucault talking about Derrida.
> With Derrida, you can hardly misread him, because he’s so obscure. Every time you say, “He says so and so,” he always says, “You misunderstood me.” But if you try to figure out the correct interpretation, then that’s not so easy. I once said this to Michel Foucault, who was more hostile to Derrida even than I am, and Foucault said that Derrida practiced the method of obscurantisme terroriste (terrorism of obscurantism). We were speaking in French. And I said, “What the hell do you mean by that?” And he said, “He writes so obscurely you can’t tell what he’s saying. That’s the obscurantism part. And then when you criticize him, he can always say, ‘You didn’t understand me; you’re an idiot.’ That’s the terrorism part.” And I like that. So I wrote an article about Derrida. I asked Michel if it was OK if I quoted that passage, and he said yes.
They also offer download in several convenient formats for wallpapers.
>Another tale, emphasizing the importance of keeping one's word, tells of Marshal Li who wanted to marry a young girl but was refused by her mother. Li had to have her, though, and he vowed he would never marry if he could not marry her. He proved himself so devoted and persistent that the mother let him marry her daughter, and he swore to be faithful forever. After a few years, the girl died and only one year later Li arranged to marry someone else. Just before his marriage, when he was soaking in his bath, the hun of his first wife appeared reminding him how he had promised that he would never marry anyone else. She sprinkled herbs into his bath and vanished. Li began to feel soft and weak and so bloated he could not move. He died in the bathtub and when he was found his bones and tendons had dissolved In addition to the importance of keeping one's word, this tale emphasized how one should always observe a proper period of mourning.
Socrates wasn't serious about his claims, at least not the Socrates character that Plato presents. His "I don't know anything" shtick was just to distinguish himself from the sophists and get other people to start talking. There's even a term for it: Socratic irony.
Here is an Britannica entry for Zen.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/656421/Zen
> Zen, Chinese Chan, Korean Sŏn, also spelled Seon, Vietnamese Thien, important school of East Asian Buddhism that constitutes the mainstream monastic form of Mahayana Buddhism in China, Korea, and Vietnam and accounts for approximately 20 percent of the Buddhist temples in Japan. The word derives from the Sanskrit dhyana, meaning “meditation.” Central to Zen teaching is the belief that awakening can be achieved by anyone but requires instruction in the proper forms of spiritual cultivation by a master. In modern times, Zen has been identified especially with the secular arts of medieval Japan (such as the tea ceremony, ink painting, and gardening) and with any spontaneous expression of artistic or spiritual vitality regardless of context. In popular usage, the modern non-Buddhist connotations of the word Zen have become so prominent that in many cases the term is used as a label for phenomena that lack any relationship to Zen or are even antithetical to its teachings and practices.
Do you really think that two independently produced encyclopaedia's will make the same errors? /u/ewk is a liar. Wikipedia may be of questionable repute, but not Britannica.
Centralized identity "providers" may not be necessary. Cryptographic signing and the notion of a "web of trust" is all you need for persistent identity. This has been implemented in PGP/GPG for decades, but it's slightly too tedious to use right now, for shallow technological reasons.
The guys behind OkCupid are working on a project called Keybase which I hope will soon become an easy-to-use directory of verified cryptographic keys.
Then all that's needed is a little bit of cooperation from public sites. Reddit could easily integrate signatures, so that signed messages are displayed with an icon that points to a cryptographic identity.
I think some of this is just a lack of strong technical writing... insert my usual plug for Plain Style https://www.amazon.com/Plain-Style-Techniques-Emphatic-Business/dp/081441429X/.
For instance, "I fell ur full of crap" is more clearly written "ur full of crap".
I'd like to see a better written layout of this argument... you get sucked into the technical writing and lose the thread yourself.
Is Bankei a Zen Master
What is Zen outside the context of the Chinese tradition
What is the Zen catechism?
Japanese culture v/s Zen
Idk if any of these is more relevant or even if they are interesting...
I really recommend it! His major intention (as I read him) is to illuminate the basic structure of the original text, so you really get a feel for the poetic and narrative forms/tropes these bronze age poets found powerful. Personally, I love thinking about texts that way: trying to see what the author is doing on an intellectual level. It's absolutely wild to me, being pointed to subtle linguistic effects crafted three thousand years ago that have retained the power to move a reader. Makes you think about just how hardwired language is in the brain.
The whole set is kinda expensive, but the second volume has the book of Job, which IMO is his best translation of the Hebrew Bible's most interesting book, for 10 bucks.
Here are some Zen resources for you: https://www.reddit.com/r/nondenominationalzen/comments/lxkaf2/zen_resources_list/
Are is a non-Zen resource for you: https://www.amazon.com/Tantra-Illuminated-Philosophy-Practice-Tradition/dp/0989761304
I'm about 3 dabs deep right now.
And I'm hitting them off of this recent purchase.
In addition to "grasp of Zen", I also have some people fooled into thinking that I am an adult.
My Zen Mastery truly knows no bounds!
XD
Haha I jk, thank you for the compliment <3
(I'm not kidding about the sword though ... unfortunately)
I agree, it is hard.
The strategy I suggest is a simple one: stick with one text for as long as you can't keep up with it, and let everything else float by.
Green's Zhaozhou, for example: https://www.amazon.com/Recorded-Sayings-Zen-Master-Joshu/dp/157062870X
I think anybody could easily stick with that for a year or two and get a solid academic grounding that would make next steps like Pang, Mazu, or Wumen much less challenging when/if those steps were taken.
Whereas if you start with BCR, BoS, or GG, I don't know that it would be as academically easy to get your arms around it.
If I were going to teach Zen 101 to non-Zen, non-academic students, I would just use that text. It would be easy to pair any part of it with another text to illustrate, but Zhaozhou's text would be all that was required for 101.
Okay, thank you.
If you're interested in the topic, Michael Pollan just wrote a book about it. Here's a link to it on Amazon.
Green is the translator. It's on Amazon. It's a clearer translation than Hoffman I think. https://www.amazon.com/Recorded-Sayings-Zen-Master-Joshu/dp/157062870X/
I haven't read it. I clicked the link, and in the intro he clearly mixes in Buddhism without realizing he is doing it... so I wouldn't call it a Zen text, but a text with a bunch of stuff in it and maybe some out of context Zen quotes.
You aren't talking about Zen, you are talking about a Buddhist cult that calls itself Zen, but is really "Soto Buddhism". In the book you obliquely refer to, Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind, the author even admits that his religion doesn't have anything to do with Zen.
So I'm guessing that the "practice" you refer to is Zazen prayer-meditation, a specific religious practice invented by the cult?
If we are now on the same page, then the best advice is go to church. You can't get ordinary people to give you the advice that you want from a priest.
Zen doesn't have "practice". Zen Masters don't teach people to chain themselves to the present moment.
As far as letting go of the past, you have already. You are talking about letting go of stories, but why would you? You like telling them.
Shunryu Suzuki's Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind, Kapleau's Three Pillars of Zen, almost any church in the US that claims to be "Zen Buddhism".
Generally focused on Japanese Buddhism, Zazen meditation (prayer-meditation), the 8FP, 4NT, and "practice".
No. That's faith-based "Dogen Buddhism", which, as part of it's evangelical strategy, calls itself "Zen".
Dogen Buddhism is a cult in that it all stems from the religious authority of a single person, but then so are Mormonism and Scientology, and it's less organized and thus less invasive (in the West) because of that.
Soto Buddhism: Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind. Nothing to do with Zen at all.
Zen: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/zen/mumonkan.htm
The difference should be clear right off the bat.
There are other forms of evangelical Buddhism that follow the same model as Dogen Buddhism, Thich Hahn is a famous example.
I read "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind" by Suzuki, some of the Gateless Gate and some of Joshu's koans in a PDF. I've listened to some Allen Watts and watched some non-duality you tube videos.
That sparked an interest and so I lurk this board and /r/awakened. Something about the puzzle of it attracts me.
Welcome to the sub, JessicaKadmon! Please take time to familiarise yourself with the location of the nearest emergency exit.
> Douglas Hofstadter
I don't want to bash Hofstadter, because I haven't read his book, I like Escher, and I'm sure he has some interesting and original ideas. But I have heard that his explanation of the Japanese word "mu" resembles the definition given by Pirsig in Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. If this true, I feel obliged to warn you that this definition is incorrect enough to be misleading.
Mu can mean a few things, like "no", "to not have", "non-existent". It's purely negative.
The popular mistranslation is that it means something like "neither yes nor no" or "unask the question" (when in response to a question). From a translation point of view, this is completely wrong. Pirsig never asked a Japanese speaker, or (since the word comes from China originally) a Chinese speaker before writing his book. He misunderstood something he'd read elsewhere, and passed it off as fact.
What a typical neo-colonial racist that guy must have been!
Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind is nothing to do with Zen. It was written by a Soto church preacher who disavowed Zen in the book.
Soto Buddhism, itself, has no connection to Zen, by virtue of the fact that the creator of Soto Buddhism, a Japanese guy named Dogen, was a fraud and a liar who never studied Zen, and used the name "Zen" in order to lend credibility to his new church. Dogen was essentially the L. Ron Hubbard of Japan, the Joseph Smith of Buddhism.
So, yeah, you keep digging yourself deeper.
I just recieved a used copy of The Life-Changing Magic of Tidying Up and quickly scrolled through it. I think I found my favourite paragraph already. Seems like the previous owner had some thoughts about this.
I started with The Power of Now and then The New Earth by Eckhart Tolle (Not zen specifically, more new agey), then the Tao of Pooh by Benjamin Hoff, then The Age of Anxiety and The Way of Zen by Alan Watts, then Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind by Shunryu Suzuki (I think this is the point where things started to start clicking), then Stillness Speaks by Eckhart Tolle, and I just finished Zen and The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance by Robert M. Pirsig.
I'm aware that these are all lay-people's books, but I've found a lot of value in them. Eckhart Tolle has to be taken with a grain of salt, but I've found valuable things in his teachings.
I'm about to begin The Book On The Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are by Alan Watts. I also have a translation of the Tao Te Ching sitting on my desk. I started to read The Art of Happiness by the Dalai Lama and got 80ish pages in, but it felt very watered down to me so I've stopped reading it for now.
The zen sub might not be the best place to post this.
Isn't it funny how many closed minds there are here?
I wouldn't get discouraged. I highly recommend reading, "Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha: An Unusually Hardcore Dharma Book" if you want to take your meditation in this kind of direction. There are all sorts of traditions of meditation (from the east, and the west!) that document mystical experiences as a side-effect, or as a goal, and numerous interpretations of them. Zen is definitely not the thing for interpretations. But Buddha himself had mystical experiences while meditating, so don't let anyone here dismiss your experience if you think its important or would like to pursue that on your spiritual journey.
Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha by Daniel Ingram is all about attainments, but what I suggest is instead of looking for lists of attainments and trying to "get them" just focus on developing what you yourself need in the moment.
You are mistaken.
"Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind" is a book about Soto Buddhism. The book's author, Shunryu Suzuki, teaches Dogen's Zazen prayer-meditation.
Soto Buddhism, Shunryu Suzuki and Zazen prayer-meditation have nothing to do with Zen.
I would start with Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind and Zen Flesh, Zen Bones. Both easy reads. Also The Compass of Zen helped me out a lot. It summarizes all the different types of buddhism, the main sutras, sitting, etc.
In the Soto tradition, there is Dogen's Shobogenzo, which you can download here:
http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma12/shobo.html
In the Soto and Rinzai traditions, contemporary works include Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind (Suzuki), Taking the Path of Zen (Aiken), Buddhism Plain and Simple (Hagen), and Hardcore Zen (Warner).
Challenge accepted! To both! Here is the current list amassed mostly through forum discussion:
~~o~~. Zen Doctrine of No-Mind
~~o~~. Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind
(o). Shoyoroku (It was pointed out I only read the abridged version.)
~~o~~. The Zen Teachings of Huang-Po
~~o~~. Alan Watts - The Way of Zen
o. The Rhetoric of Immediacy
o. The Denkoroku
o. The Practice of Zen - Garma C.C. Chang
o. The Recorded Sayings of Zen Master Joshu
o. The Record of Ippen
o. The Zen Teachings of Master Lin-Chi (Rinzai)
o*. Cultivating the Empty Field: The Silent Illumination of Zen Master Hongzhi
(o.) "Sayings and Doings of Pai-chang"
(o.) The Book of Serenity: One Hundred Zen Dialogues
(o.) Master Yunmen: From the Record of the Chan Master "Gate of the Clouds"
(o.) A Man of Zen: The Recorded Sayings of the Layman P'Ang
(o.)* Records of the Words of Ch'an Master Tao-i from Kiangsi (Baso)
^"*" ^for ^recent ^addition, ^"()" ^for ^not ^yet ^obtained.
Oh yeah. The book that was recommended to me by you guys was Mindfulness in Plain English. It was an excellent read and I'd venture to say it improved my life.
You have to read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance if you haven't already. It is about philosophy, but it takes a very sharp turn away from most western analysis and becomes the (true) story of a man for whom enlightenment was so hard it shattered him.
> poison painted drum
The Zudokko Kushu (Poison Painted Drum) is a two-volume Zen monk's handbook/PHRASE COLLECTION
There were three phrase collections like this in Japan:
The rest aside, the Flower Sermon is almost certainly an apocryphal story, iirc. (yes it first appeared in written form in the 11th century A.D. by this account). I believe there is some scholarly consensus on this point, BIANAS.
>dogs love their mothers
I have seen it. And seen those mothers love their pups. But it is not out of religion or morality or piety. It is out of a feeling. Did you see this: https://archive.org/details/TheStoryOfTheWeepingCamel
Thing Is I've never really "been there" for more then a split second a couple of times.
First time it seemed like the entire world was replaced by something that was both empty and whole. The world did not really disappear though, I think. This was brought about by me trying to imagine everything (zooming out to infinity form the location I was standing at).
Second time I was listening to a story. This story to be precise. It's like it took my hand and let me right up to the gate. Almost passed completely through it too. Everything just fell away. Almost.
Third time was during meditation yesterday. I caught a glimpse of the mind. I saw where this was all coming from. The clearest thoughts I have about it are that "I am doing all of this" and that "all of this resides in emptiness".
> I'm not interested in how he characterizes his prayer from within the context of his faith... sacrificing a live goat is still a sacrifice, even if you call it a "donation" in your scriptures.
OK this silly persuasive redefinition of words is getting out of hand. Sitting and meditating is not praying ( Definition of Prayer)
> Again, Waner is lying.
For the nth time, evidence please.
> He says "Dogen's just a regular guy", but he submits to the mystical authority of Dogen unquestioningly... that's lying about what a "regular guy" is.
How can you submit to a subjective experience of an individual in life unquestioningly? There's no mystical authority there, stop projecting or provide evidence.
> Lots of Christians say that geologists, anthropologists, and paleontologists, are "full of shit scholars"
There's a lot of people who are full of shit on this planet, unfortunately, especially religious people and non-scientific academics.
> Dogen really was a fraud, a liar, and a plagiarist... and it isn't even a tough argument to make.
That may be so, thankfully that's not an argument that's being had currently.
> I've read the material. Warner is lying.
You say that, but then you say things contrary to what has been said then not provide anything to back up your slander.
States and experiences are alike in their temporariness.
So I wouldn't use any word for experience, because the whole idea is misleading.
Hmmm found this... Sorry long link I'm on mobile. "To become tounge tied." Which isn't much unlike I said. Once tounge tied you can end naming and enjoy pure experience. Just an interpretation of something ineffable. We always seem to lose the point when we use words to describe. To become tounge tied sounds like a blessing.
Energy goes where attention goes, and in your head it can get fixed as repetitive soliloquies, bits of songs, nagging thoughts, &c. &c.
So, in all your everyday activities practice relaxing your shoulders and dropping "mind" downward into the Tanden or even below your feet, as taught by Hakuin and other Rinzai Masters. See http://diamondsutrazen.blogspot.com/p/book-of-zen-haragei.html
You might also try "Anjo Daza Ho." https://books.google.com/books?id=285lqWlQpq4C&pg=PA143&lpg=PA143&dq=Anjo+Daza+Ho&source=bl&ots=LlhmbiI78D&sig=w8Qzis5ncZLQRq8SRGetEqsdTAI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=vIHjVI3rE8zVoATYqoLACg&ved=0CFUQ6AEwDA#v=onepage&q...
Good luck, and enjoy!
Title: The Zen Experience
Author: Thomas Hoover
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/34325/34325-h/34325-h.htm
Library Journal called it, “The best history of Zen ever written.”
Taoism is the original religion of ancient China. It is founded on the idea that a fundamental principle, the Tao, underlies all nature. Long before the appearance of Zen, Taoists were teaching the superiority of intuitive thought, using an anti-intellectualism that often ridiculed the logic-bound limitations of conventional Chinese life and letters. However, Taoism was always upbeat and positive in its acceptance of reality, a quality that also rubbed off on Zen over the centuries. Furthermore, many Taoist philosophers left writings whose world view seems almost Zen-like. The early Chinese teachers of meditation (called dhyana in Sanskrit and Ch'an in Chinese) absorbed the Taoist tradition of intuitive wisdom, and later Zen masters often used Taoist expressions.
Certain segments of the community don't like talking about this though, or even worse deny any connection.
Note from translator Red Pine: >During my own visits to Cold Mountain, I took the paved highway from Tientai and headed northwest. Six kilometers later, just before the village of Fuchien, I turned west onto a two-lane dirt road. After some twenty kilometers, just before the village of Chiehtouchen, I turned south onto a one-lane dirt track that led across the Shihfeng River and through an opening in a nearby ridge. Coming out on the other side of the ridge, I crossed the Huangshui River and explored both forks of the road on the opposite side. Two kilometers to the south along the eastern edge of a rocky massif was Mingyen (Bright Cliff). About five kilometers to the west at the western base of the same formation was Hanyen (Cold Cliff). The second line was inspired by T'ao Yuan-ming (365-427): "I built my hut among mankind / but hear no sound of cart or horse." (Drinking Poems: 5) The last line is also indebted to T'ao Yuan-ming's Form, Shadow, and Spirit, in which Form and Shadow turn to Spirit for a solution to their transient existence.
I learned to code on codecademy but that was several years ago and I know there are a number of alternatives now. The trick is to find a place to learn code that works well for you. As for finding jobs, from what I understand the key is to already have a portfolio of code you've written, preferably having something to do with what they're hiring for.
Think about focusing on web development. It's probably the most creative space in programming right now besides video games, and there are tons of web dev jobs out there. If that's what you want to do, learn JavaScript and JQueary first, then move on to Ruby or Python after that. Learn HTML and CSS as you go along with JavaScript, they're easy enough to pick up. Good luck, anonymous pizza delivery person on the internet!
Start with this: <em>Buddhism in the Sung</em>
Desperate religious poetry from Assyria, 1230 BC!
I swear to that coiled serpent of the sun, I will renounce the world I find since I've already lost myself in losing him, in losing You. It may everything that once seemed solid in my mind has no more substance than a dew upon an asphodel or on a spider's web, no more to worship as my own than trickery of flickered candlelight that casts Your shadow on my throne.
Ingmar Bergman should have made a movie about this guy.
Bodhidharma wasn’t “some guy”. Wu of Liang was a huge contributor to Buddhism, and imperial courts during this time in China were very interested in recruiting eminent monks. He knew who Bodhidharma was and treated him as an important figure. Otherwise he might have had him killed for the sass.
I did a whole podcast about it: https://anchor.fm/extra-salt/episodes/ZEN-HISTORY-Bodhidharma--Gunabhadra--Taoist-Theocracy--more-e2fuuj
Chih didn’t “make up” a line about him being the bodhisattva of compassion, this is a thread that is woven throughout Zen:
https://old.reddit.com/r/zen/comments/8r5z7z/the_founder_of_zen_was_the_bodhisattva_of/
The Zen Open Directory Project lists most of the active Zendos in the world. It's far from comprehensive, but it's a great help to find other Zendos.
It is so short. It is like 80 pages. You can get it used cheap and fast:
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?isbn=0834801213&sts=t&x=0&y=0
>"Shitou gave his assent [to the Layman's understanding.] Then Shitou asked, "Will you put on the black robes or will you continue to wear the white?" > > "I want to do what I like," replied the Layman. So he did not shave his head or dye his clothing.
I don't meditate, but I really like this site for relaxing ambient sounds.
This link goes to "Japanese Garden" but there are many other varieties that people will enjoy.
You kinda need the bass too on this, to hit the spot.
Another one, still no bass.
Well, exactly. It just seems too easy to read the statement I quoted as breaking out of any formal context. Especially in a forum like this, not devoted to formal discourse, such a statement is less likely to be understood as formal.
In fact, later in the same sentence you say "...and the relationships in math are all relationships between some order of nothing and some order of nothing." Lacking any caveat (like "considered through the constraints above" or whatever), it sounds like your axioms are then supposed to be valid for math that may not have postulated them. Not that you intended that.
Here we are in /r/zen, right? So in bringing up nothing or emptiness or void, it's probably a reference to sunyata. I think I'm basically with /u/prunck in suggesting that it's a different emptiness. At best, the formal nothing might serve as a model for "real emptiness" (whatever that means) -- after all, that's what we're doing on some level every time we use a word like emptiness to talk about it -- but like the G.E.P. Box quote says: "all models are wrong, but some are useful."
The degree to which it may be useful or misleading is the hard part, and (it seems to me) the gist of a lot of Zen discourse is that the "misleading" far outweighs the "useful" when it comes to modeling anything.
Don't get me wrong, though. I think it's interesting stuff; it just seems important to be on guard against possible misinterpretation.
Knock yourself out: http://www.metafilter.com/user/14361
For instance, 7 years ago: > How we practice faith and where, when, and how we worship, maybe these are more important than a marriage vow.
!
Sure. Here's a pdf of the case's treatment from the Book of Serenity.
As Wansong (who wrote the commentary) and Tiantong (who wrote the verse) point out, Joshu had "seen a lot of things" by the age of 115, after his 80 years of learning from anyone better than him even a child, and teaching anyone who was better than him, even an old man. "Day by day enlightenment grows."
On the other hand, as they point out, that view is also untrue: there is no enlightenment and there's nothing to accumulate.
Then that too gets flipped over yet again, and Wansong says essentially "but if you see it as though there's nothing that accumulates, what do you call that which fills ravines and gullies?"
Finally he flips it all over into the West Lake, leaving you to figure out how to live it yourself.
Terebess has the Blyth it's either 2 or 3 of Zen and Zen classics.
Green's translation is an essential text.
https://www.amazon.com/Recorded-Sayings-Zen-Master-Joshu/dp/157062870X
I have found it from Google books and amazon.
>Zen does not have a unified theory, which makes [the task] a joke in itself.
> Seems like this applies to our conversation as well.
If your only compass is conceptual, there is no way out of the fix.
Sooner or later you find an arrow that points and take a leap. Most people don't seem to. But if there is no leap, there is seeing life beyond the world view that was socialized into us.
Oh, I guess we could have been raised feral. But we weren't.
>'muscle memory'/reflex
combined with watching it happen.
None of this is "attained", but yeah, its mystery. No one is ever going to understand it like they could understand how a nut fits on a screw. The world of nature is like that.
>parsing bits out
don't put off reading a collection of stories like "zen flesh, zen bones". Its better to take it from the actual literature than to take it from some random dude on the internet :)
https://www.amazon.com/Zen-Flesh-Bones-Collection-Writings/dp/0804831866
$2 used plus shipping
There's a lot of Witty and Heidey being flung about as of late.
Take a look at this recent text if you wanna check out this modern group of renegades. Been meaning to read it, but my stack is tall.
Picked up a very odd book recently. I hesitate to post it here as it contains unfiltered thoughts of an articulate follower. Some will find it too weird, or too frightening, or too alluring. Some may find it to contain tantalizing blueprints of bad ideas that sound like good ideas.
But I think you're one of the few people that would find it interesting/useful/insightful but not instructive.
"Dead lines seek conflict."
https://www.amazon.com/Gamecaller-Mr-Tobe-Terrell/dp/1974059308
don’t tell people but Cleary’s $3 ‘Introduction to Chan Buddhism’ is his translation of Baizhang’s extensive record:
https://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Chan-Buddhism-Thomas-Cleary-ebook/dp/B00JAPPNFS
Well the problem is that we really have to have annotations instead of commentary...
There are so many self-referential elements to the text that to not explain them is to do a disservice to the audience.
It's just that we're 200 years ahead of our time... If you get an annotated Bible now the annotations are all you know college level discussions of language and time and place and person and you get a massive amount of scholarship crammed in there.
we just don't have people who are willing to do that for Zen texts in the academic world... What we get is religious people trying to put their spin on what it means to practice mu.
That doesn't mean that the information isn't out there and that putting it in one place wouldn't be useful.
If you've never seen the Oxford... https://www.amazon.com/dp/0190276088/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_sAqaGbY9HG5WQ
The issue there is of course that this text is aggressively secular to the point of being almost insulting to lots of different religions.
There are no levels of enlightenment.
There is no "saving the Rinzai school from extinction." (Technically, such a statement is slander).
Even if there were, creating secret passwords certainly wasn't the way to do it.
But now you have LinJi's record directly and with great, researched commentary by the Buddha-loving Ruth Fuller Sasaki.
So congratulations, you no longer have any excuses.
Why not study Zen while you're here?
Ah, an old version. I've got this 2014 book which includes the extensive record: https://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Chan-Buddhism-Thomas-Cleary-ebook/dp/B00JAPPNFS
If anyone knows if/how the content differs, speak, speak!
I'm a silly person so no wonder! Lol!
I've been clean from cigarettes for 8 months next Tuesday, my lungs thank me for it every day. I think my dry eyes issue is probably because I don't drink enough water, I just don't like having to pee all the time when I increase my intake. Plus caffeine seems to have that effect on me.
Here's the one I got: https://www.amazon.com/Worlds-Strongest-Coffee-Performance-Hazelnut/dp/B07PRYGH2Z/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=high+caffeine+coffee&qid=1600271415&sprefix=high+caffeine&sr=8-3
(The breakfast blend is delicious but damn is it a caffeine overload)
There is no "ego". That's pseudo science that Zen Masters never got into.
Not only is Bodhidharma not related to those texts... Zen Masters don't quote these texts that are casually categorized as "Bodhidharmaish".
Zen Masters say original enlightnement - that negates dependent origination.
Here's the debate from the other side of the fence: http://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/CriticalZen/What_and_why_of_Critical_Buddhism_1.pdf
From this book, which I can't recommend enough: https://www.amazon.com/Pruning-Bodhi-Tree-Critical-Buddhism/dp/0824819497 even though it is all about Dogen Buddhism and Japanese Buddhism which are entirely unrelated to Zen.
I have a suspicion that tome is beyond my means. I've heard of it. Maybe I'll stumble into it at a library or an old books store.
Edit: This it? Great price.