I wish this was just a joke, but its on Amazon - this review is chilling:
"I had planned on reading this book with an open mind, but only made it as far as page 10, when my mouth literally dropped open with this quote: "We believe that the widespread acceptance and legal recognition of homosexual behavior will lead to the exploitation of children by adults. As homosexuality is integrated into our society, adult-child sex will become more common." The authors then spend 2 or 3 more pages defending this outdated and horribly disrespectful and homophobic opinion. The rest of the book is filled with similar outdated ideas, such as that homosexuality is caused by a distant father and an overbearing mother. If you're a parent looking to help your child, what you will learn from this book is that it's mostly your fault your child is gay and that he is likely to grow up to be a sex offender"
>I've been thinking. I was always taught that we had to stay close to the church to reaffirm our testimonies so that we wouldn't fall away. It made sense then. But now I've been thinking, and doubting.
If you're doubting the message that testimonies based on truth are in fact fragile objects, which require great care, you are questioning the truthfulness of the church's message. This is a big deal.
>I should be able to take a leave of absence from the church and come back as strong as I ever was. In order for me to believe, I have to stay extremely close. Isn't that the definition of brainwashing?
It's not the definition of brainwashing, but it could be a feature of brainwashing.
Here's my first question: Does the church work for you? Meaning, does it in general bring you happiness, a healthy sense of identity, does it strengthen family relationships, especially with your wife? Can you basically agree with it's worldview and stance on social issues?
If the answer to those questions is yes, FULL STOP. You need time to think about what you would be giving up if you go down the rabbit hole which awaits you here.
The next question is, given everything you know, and your life as you're living it, if the church is not true, would you want to know? If the answer is no, you're done here. Go back to church and re-strengthen your testimony.
If questioning the church is going to hurt your wife, be very very careful here man. Honestly, I would personally have rather had a happy marriage and stayed in the church. But I didn't, and it led to a change in my beliefs.
Other commentors are going to tell you to read a certain document, which many here feel disproves the foundational truth claims of the church. I advise against any such exploration at this point.
PM me if you like. Take care.
Bias breakdown, in my opinion:
EDIT: Damn, I knew I'd forget some. Add these to the list above:
You are in a very vulnerable position at the moment, but by reaching out for help on a public forum shows that you possess a great deal of bravery that many people will never have. That alone makes your life worth living.
First of all, do you have a plan for ending your life, or are you just thinking about it? If it's the former, then you should call the National Suicide Hotline at 1 (800) 273-8255 right away.
If it's the latter, please talk to us. Have your parents explicitly told you they would kick you out of the house if you don't serve a mission? This Quora answer explains your options if this happens. There are options.
Are you still in school? Do you have a psychologist to talk to? Try to get in touch with a non-LDS one. You can tell your parents that you're "searching for relief" or some bullshit. Here's a list of LGBTQ-affirming psychologists in Utah. There are options.
Unless you have a super magical Seer Stone (which don't really work), you have no way of knowing that you'll never meet a man who'll love you back. Don't think about that at the moment. Think about your safety and where you're going to stay in the near future.
Edit: PM me if you like. I'm a bisexual man who has suffered from depression and suicidal thoughts and was unable to come out for years.
"I have a hard time with historians because they idolize the truth. The truth is not uplifting; it destroys. I could tell most of the secretaries in the church office building that they are ugly and fat. That would be the truth, but it would hurt and destroy them. Historians should tell only that part of the truth that is inspiring and uplifting." Quinn (ed), Faithful History: Essays On Writing Mormon History, p 103, fn 22
PSA: Most good ones are not free, and many of the popular free ones have been caught selling their data to 3rd parties. If it's free, you're likely the product.
Edit: I personally use Private Internet Access, which is like $40/year and solid but I think there are a whole bunch of good ones around that price. Also I recommend using an anonymous Visa gift card to buy it - I made the mistake of using my CC and am now certainly on a list (probably not a big deal bc I mostly use it as a workaround for bypassing geographic restrictions to watch sports, but if you're serious about security and/or doing dodgy stuff online you might care a lot more).
...EXCEPT, there's no GOD, just believers claiming there is.
You know you've created god in your own image when god hates all the same people you do.
A policy change that the leaders tried to sneak into the super secret handbook. Basically, it says that children with gay parents cannot be baptised until they are 18 and have disavowed their parents. In addition, babies with a gay parent cannot be blessed and a person who marries a person of the same sex should be excommunicated. It's a vile policy.
Here's a copy that you can read for yourself. https://www.scribd.com/doc/288685756/Changes-to-LDS-Handbook-1-Document-2-Revised-11-3-15-28003-29
Sheri Dew (Deseret Book's CEO) did get on the whole "stay in the Church" bandwagon and wrote a book called "Worth the Wrestle" that apparently explains why people should continue to believe.
If you read the negative reviews on Amazon, there's one that explains how writing such a book is exactly what one would expect a CEO to do if her customer base was starting to falter. Of course, there are a bunch of butthurt TBM comments about how they don't like it when the truth is pointed out.
Then again, how perfectly ironic is it that she writes a book encouraging people to stay in the Mormon Church (and thus support the business of which she is CEO) and then she charges them for it? The Church wouldn't have it any other way.
I'd personally be shocked if DB wasn't seeing a significant decline in an already lackluster business.
Mormonism: A Latter Day Deception
The book looks awesome. He goes in detail of his temple experience and how it was strange being semi-naked and touched with oil over some of his body parts.
The article is correct. It is a roman gladiator costume, and they do point out he was cosplaying as Captain Moroni from the BoM.
>wore his costume to portray Captain Moroni, a figure from the Book of Mormon
For those who don't know, Pres Nelson's wife Wendy wrote a book called the "Not Even Once Club" that is laying the groundwork for who knows how many LDS youth's depression and suicide:
You are missing one crucial component which those who study religion would consider necessary to call it 'religion' instead of something like 'activism':
> Religion is a belief system which includes the notion of a supernatural, invisible world, inhabited by gods, human souls, angels, demons, and other conscious spirit entities... What we observe every day, in every culture, is individuals discussing souls, spirits, ghosts, gods, ancestors, or demons...This is the irreducible common core ... which unites tens of thousands of religions and billions of believers. (Beit-Hallahmi, 2015: 3)
Getting everyone to agree upon the definition of "religion" can be tricky of course, see discussion here, but Beit-Hallahmi seems to be one of the most well-respected researchers on the psychology of religion, so his definition is probably worth considering.
I'm so sorry! She is having an affair. Affairs can be emotional, as you said. This is so hurtful!
Years ago I heard about a study where they found that people can stay married if they don't love each other, but not if they don't trust each other.
Unfortunately, she has broken your trust and crossed marital boundaries. Her behaviors are not conducive to staying married, and have escalated. To remain married, the affair needs to end, at minimum.
Her personal day alone in the city sets off red flags. I had a family member that crossed from an emotional affair into a physical affair just like this... having their own day alone... as well as not allowing access to their messages, phone, computer, knowing where they were, etc.
Whatever happens, I suggest getting counseling... at least for you, and if you do stay together try to get marriage counseling with a non-lds lds therapist.
A really good book to read together, or separately, is called "His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-Proof Marriage", along with its companion book, "Love Busters: Protect Your Marriage by Replacing Love-Busting Patterns with Love-Building Habits." Both books are by Williard F. Harley, Jr and can be found on Amazon.
I highly suggest reading the two books, even if things don't work out in your marriage so you'll have the knowledge for future relationships. Hopefully they could help you both now.
Good luck! Stand your ground. Let us know how it goes.
Wishing you peace and healing though all this!
Read better books. Stop watching the local news and definitely don’t believe what Mormons say about “the world”.
Nobody is coming to save us. But what would they save us from? You see, on the whole, we’re doing a pretty good job of making our lives better. Objectively speaking. At the individual level a person feeling terrified when they actually live in a very safe environment and are extremely well protected ... well that to me sounds like something the individual needs to understand and deal with.
Nevermo here. I became interested in people who made long ocean voyages in small boats so I went on Amazon and started ordering books. I came across one called Lehi IV: Adrift in the Pacific which appeared to be a Kon Tiki spinoff voyage. Not until the end of the book did the author state he made the voyage to prove the Mormon story. It is strange to say, as a nevermo, that I fell down the rabbit hole. Here I am 6 years later spending most of my online time in r/exmo reading some bizarre shit about LDS.
No. I'm not that clever. It is a variation of Max Planck's:
>A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.
I'm actually /r/Exmormon's resident expert on Humanitarian Aid. Technically the church pays about an average of $4.48 per member per year. When adjusting for actual activity rates, its closer to $13.41.
>I went, and the 2nd Counselor was conducting it. He put in a tape featuring Napoleon Hill "Think and Grow Rich". I watched the tape.
You can bet that guy was in Amway. His in your face behavior was reinforced by the MLM cult tapes and training. He was grooming the YSA members for his downline, and you called him out on it, even though you didn't realize you had.
Just remember. THIS ISN'T YOUR FAULT! It's not your fault that the church hid all this stuff. You are simply trying to deal with the fallout from it. If you didn't figure this out now, he might of later, or your daughter might have at some point. Any of those things are quite likely.
As I move forward I am finding it important to try to find positive ideas about life and living to help me build a hopeful outlook for the future. Some of the ways I've done this is reading books like "The Obstacle is the Way" by Ryan Holiday, it is very empowering, I suggest you get it. I keep another of his by my bed and it's my new daily bible it's called "The Daily Stoic", I have also recently finished "Waking Up" by Sam Harris which is subtitled A Guide to Spirituality without Religion. It talks of meditation and there are likely many other books on meditation that would be wonderful too. I do recommend starting to learn the practice of meditation. There is much to be found there.
I also have been studying Buddhism a bit, and while I don't think I'll become Buddhist (I doubt I'll ever do religion again - although Buddhism isn't strictly a religion), I do find many of their ideas very helpful in dealing with life. Specifically what causes suffering and how we can free ourselves from that. A good podcast for this is https://secularbuddhism.com/podcast/ he keeps it very accessible for a beginner like us
and always... you've got us here on this sub :)
I'm guessing Deseret News works fine?
If your on an iPhone I suggest downloading TunnelBear it's a great VPN app that'll allow you to use the church's wifi and get around the blocks to Facebook and Reddit.
For anyone who is interested in the nitty gritty of what this slimebucket did, here's a slide show that explains it all.
(BTW, I didn't make it, I'm just sharing it.)
>A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.
This. All of what I'm about to say is for gaming the system. In my case I would refuse to play the game. But if you are at a church school, then the stakes are much higher for you.
Take a look at the leadership handbook. You can find a copy over on wikileaks. https://wikileaks.org/wiki/Mormon_Church_Handbook_of_Instructions,_2006
Go through the section marked Discipline(?) and read it thoroughly. It'll tell you what to expect and how it will go.
Repentance is a major component in how they are supposed to rule on your case. Big crocodile tears would be helpful. As would throwing other people under the bus. If it is possible that they will find out about the other boy, it'll go better if you confess before they mention it. Otherwise, it'll be better if it never comes up at all.
If you can paint yourself as a victim who was seduced by the obviously faltering boy, that can help. Play up your "weak" woman state. Clearly he as a priesthood holder knew what he was doing. You (especially if you haven't been endowed) should get off lighter than him.
In a lot of ways you are playing the Bishop. He (and his councilors) are the investigators, prosecuting and defense lawyers, judge and jury. What you need to do is figure out how to play him. Everything else is dependent on that.
PS As a final note. Go to the BYU records office tomorrow and get a transcript! They will refuse to release one later if your recommendation is withdrawn. Any chance of transferring any credits to another school depends on that transcript. So get it. And then leave it in the envelope sealed. As long as the envelope isn't opened, other schools will accept it.
It doesn't just make you feel better, it reduces stress and heart disease. Wearing garments and denying yourself this pleasure shortens your lifespan. PERIOD.
"When you touch someone, the skin-on-skin contact signals your adrenal glands to cease excessive amounts of cortisol production, the aforementioned stress hormone."
So, I've never heard of this guy before, and I assume others here are in the same boat. Why is everyone (based on the comments here) assuming that he's a TBM pushing apologetics? It seems just as easy to read this as a serious academic trying to relate to a fairly religious student body by speaking their language.
His faculty page looks legit to me. https://www.uvu.edu/profpages/profiles/show/user_id/15279
Student reviews seem positive. The only complaints are about the difficulty of his course, not that he's beating a Mormon drum. http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=1872886
None of my Googling brings up the slightest hint that he's an apologist.
My recommendation is to see a good sex counselor or even just a professional family counselor. They're trained to handle this specific issue. I know it may sound embarrassing, but you should realize that you aren't alone. Many religions induce guilt for otherwise normal activities. Get some help to move past yours.
A church meeting in Frankfurt (faithful source, in-depth book about TSCC's relationship with / attitudes about the Nazis)
Baby steps work. Took me 3 years of baby steps, until I found the exit from the cave. Wow, it's sunny out here! ��
Edit: But the crucial moment was when I read:
Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church https://www.amazon.com/dp/1560851813/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_DnuoBbKZ0SJPJ
Excerpt from ‘Children of Promise’, By Apostle Mark E. Petersen, Pg. 46: “If there had been large numbers of other peoples here when the Jaredites came, or when Lehi arrived, certainly the Book of Mormon would have said so. The land was reserved for the Lord’s purposes and for His peoples, and the Book of Mormon provides their histories.”
Excerpt from the LDS Gospel Topic Essay, Book of Mormon and DNA Studies: “…critics insist that the Book of Mormon does not allow for the presence of other large populations in the Americas and that, therefore, Near Eastern DNA should be easily identifiable among modern native groups.”
Children of Promise. The Lamanites: Yesterday & Today, Apostle Mark E. Petersen - https://www.amazon.com/Children-Promise-Lamanites-Yesterday-Today/dp/088494431X Book of Mormon and DNA Studies, LDS Gospel Topic Essay - https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-and-dna-studies?lang=eng
What you say actually gives credence to the OW movement. Ordination of black men to the priesthood began in the '40s, was inflamed in the 60s and didn't actually happen until '78.
Two (that I know of) were excommunicated for their view on giving black men the priesthood, in '76 and '77.
Based on the track record of TSCC, we may see ordination of women in 2016 and the members of OW may believe that these are the kind of trials one must encounter when calling upon the Lard for a change in doctrine.
Not to mention, TSCC has met with some groups, but specifically not OW. Just as in the 70s it met with some groups that it endorsed (Genesis), but not others (NAACP).
OW is the NAACP and Genesis is Mormon Women Stand.
The real problem is anyone thinking they can decipher anything about anybody just by looking at them.
Talking to Strangers: What We Should Know about the People We Don't Know
>Something is very wrong, Gladwell argues, with the tools and strategies we use to make sense of people we don’t know. And because we don’t know how to talk to strangers, we are inviting conflict and misunderstanding in ways that have a profound effect on our lives and our world.
Wayback machine link to the blog; just to stand as a testament that "Delete" is not the same as "I'm sorry, I was wrong":
I think his own quote is quite damning:
Behold, mine eyes see and know all their works, and I have in reserve a swift judgment in the season thereof, for them all.” Doctrine and Covenants 121:24
Forget your old family - conditional love is no love at all. Be thankful you now have a good marriage to look forward to. Many of us here ended up being divorced and abandoned by our children due to TSCC.
If you need to get out from under guilt feelings, search for "problems with Mormonism" on Google or YouTube.com
You and your fiance might be able to find some good people to be friends with on meetup.com
> His mind slid away into the labyrinthine world of doublethink. To know and not to know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them, to use logic against logic, to repudiate morality while laying claim to it, to believe that democracy was impossible and that the Party was the guardian of democracy, to forget, whatever it was necessary to forget, then to draw it back into memory again at the moment when it was needed, and then promptly to forget it again, and above all, to apply the same process to the process itself — that was the ultimate subtlety; consciously to induce unconsciousness, and then, once again, to become unconscious of the act of hypnosis you had just performed. Even to understand the word 'doublethink' involved the use of doublethink.
Most of the depictions prior to 300AD had him holding a wand.
I found this book to be fascinating:
"Bamboozled By The CES Letter: An honest response to the .pdf pamphlet entitled Letter to a CES Director" is critical of "Letter to a CES Director" but because it defends the LDS church it would be considered an apologetic book/pamphlet.
Here's a PDF of the First edition Mormon Doctrine
I served my mission almost 20 years ago and this was a concept I heard and taught then. The idea to a TBM is that the BoM is not intended to be a history anymore than someones autobiography is. In other words, could you detail the events of WW2 by reading Diary of Anne Frank or Man's Search for Meaning? Same with the BoM. Could Victor Frankl have had some events of WW2 wrong with his limited viewpoint? Sure. But that doesn't make it fiction and that doesn't diminish the value of Man's Search for Meaning.
THAT is the narrative. To my mind it doesn't assert that the BoM is fiction. If it is a door opening, it is only opened a small crack. Maybe in 200 years they will claim it is fiction. Maybe.
Reminds me of a passage in Pirsig's Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance:
> You are never dedicated to something you have complete confidence in. No one is fanatically shouting that the sun is going to rise tomorrow. They know it's going to rise tomorrow. When people are fanatically dedicated to political or religious faiths or any other kinds of dogmas or goals, it's always because these dogmas or goals are in doubt.
Someone around here once quipped (paraphrasing here) that a good way to get yourself excommunicated is to speak the truth before the Brethren admit it.
Now where was that link to people getting the X for ordaining black men in 1977?
EDIT: Aha, here we are. And here's the newspaper article it's talking about.
This is a fun one in relation to a map Joseph Smith allegedly drew
American flag represents the entire history of USA, whereas the Confederate flag was created at time of separation from USA in order to support slavery, and therefore represents racism. And yes, I'm aware that north had slaves, and it was a tough sell for Abraham Lincoln to get 13th amendment passed. I did not say that USA was perfect (Countless mistakes were make such as invasions of different countries that did nothing to deserve it). But the Confederate flag is a obvious display of racism, as evidenced by the woman's disgusted expression. My effort here is to help stamp out racism and discrimination. You're missing the mark and trying to downplay that there are racism at play here.
Confederate flag as a "piece of heritage"? Try waving around a nazi flag and saying that it's "piece of heritage". It's the same fucking goddamn thing, flags represents ideals.
https://edition.cnn.com/2015/07/02/politics/confederate-flag-poll-racism-southern-pride/ In the southern states, blacks view it as a symbol of racism, while whites view it as a symbol of pride (read, whites in southern states) while rest of USA mostly don't care.
Cook is a slimy bastard who stole a hospital from the citizens of a community. I'm sure lying about seeing god is one of his minor sins. (BTW, I didn't make this slideshow, I'm just linking you guys to it).
>In revenge, I found some his old seminary scriptures and I burned them.
Let me get this straight: You tried to steal a book belonging to your parents, you think they likely somehow stole it back (you speculate they could have destroyed it), so you stole another book (likely with great sentimental value to you father and irreplaceable) and burned it?
Not cool on so many levels.
>That felt good, but it won't make up for the loss of this piece of history!
The only history that was lost was your father's seminary scriptures. The book you think they might haveburned exists in numerous other copies and can be found in libraries and even purchased on amazon.
I think you owe your father an apology.
Unfortunately the journal is unavailable online. But you can buy it here or read more about it here on page 47.
I hope that helps.
Every time I bring this up to a TBM they think I’m a lair. And showing them doesn’t do any good.
But it’s a fun fact.
And it solves the weird deep doctrinal question I had when I first started going to the temple about how premortal spirits could shake hands with mortals.
Brigham didn’t think this addition through and compare it to Joseph’s teachings about angels shaking hands ��
The thesis of this book is : Don’t attack specific truth claims. Undermine faith and epistemology to create critical thinkers.
I received revelation that I was a top general in the war in heaven. I planned coordinated attacks on the beaches of Kolob and killed many enemy combatant spirits. I'm going to write a book called "The Art of War in Heaven." Sun Tzu doesn't have fucking shit on me!
Read to her the exciting and educational stories of Greek, Roman, Norse, Native American, Australian, and African mythology. She will benefit from wonderful time spent together with you and will love to take you with her after she graduates from college to visit Greece and Italy and the other places you planted with love within her heart. http://www.abebooks.com/Childs-Intro-Greek-Mythology-hc-Format-Hardcover/16717833895/bd?cm_mmc=gmc-_-gmc-_-PLA-_-v01&product=COM9781579128678NEW
She meant to send you this link, for sure.
Current top 5 star review is fantastic:
> I was experiencing doubts until I read this pamphlet. I was truly BAMBOOZLED! Now, it doesn't bother me that Joseph Smith married teenagers, sent men off on missions and married their wives, that the LDS Church systematically kept black men and women as second-class citizens until 14 years AFTER the Civil Rights Act, that Joseph Smith told multiple conflicting version if "THE FIRST VISION!," that there have been changes to the "perfect" and "timeless" temple experience, that Joseph translated the Book of Mormon with a rock he found in the field (the same one he used to see buried treasure), that Joseoh lied about polygamy for decades, that the modern church asks teenage girls about their masturbatory practices, that the contemporary church is run more like the corporation it is than the living church of Jesus Christ.
>Now, let's go make something out of egg cartons!
Let me help, and please take with a grain of salt. Good Luck & Bad Luck - same thing.
You exist, because your father married again after the tragic accident.
Your dad could have died in a house fire, or had some type of disability if he had stayed as Fire Marshall.
Living in a trailer is better than beings homeless.
If he has food, clothing and shelter. If he has culture and relationships (a son that love him), if he has hope, then he is OK.
I will agree with you, Mormonism is a Cult that robs people and I hope it will disappear someday. But don't let that pathetic institution rob you of your happiness or make you bitter.
If you have a chance, you may find this concentration camp survivor's insights worthwhile:
When a man finds that it is his destiny to suffer, he will have to accept his suffering as his task; his single and unique task. He will have to acknowledge the fact that even in suffering he is unique and alone in the universe. No one can relieve him of his suffering or suffer in his place. His unique opportunity lies in the way in which he bears his burden.
Frankl, Viktor (2006-06-01). Man's Search for Meaning (pp. 77-78). Beacon Press. Kindle Edition.
It sounds so much more ridiculous when it's said in plain English. You might enjoy the "plain english" reading of of d&c 132 by Gina Colvin. It's fantastic
Wow, so the church didn't even hit $100m/year? Microsoft employees have been donating more for years: http://www.geekwire.com/2014/microsoft-2013-employee-giving-program/
Another fun fact from that article: Microsoft, a greedy for-profit company trying to return value to its shareholders, has donated over $1bn since 1983... And the church had a pretty damn good lead in the 80s when it comes to budget.
/u/AnotherClosetAtheist has sent you a VIAL OF BLOOD! Click <strong>here</strong> to play SOME SHITTY VAMPIRE TEXT GAME for free!
50/50 chance old men from SLC and TSCC don't know what the rainbow stands for in the modern world. But who knows? Maybe he's gay in the closet!
Good for you for wearing the tie to his talk!
Have a present: Download PDF
Sounds like Borderline Personality Disorder to me.
Stop Walking on Eggshells: Taking Your Life Back When Someone You Care About Has Borderline Personality Disorder
By Paul Mason https://www.amazon.com/dp/1572246901/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_3B4yCbRTD0CR3
Watching my kids feel the freedom and fear that comes from leaving TSCC. This has been really helpful.
P.S. IT'S NOT THE BISHOP
I could totally see Lufthansa giving a 26-plus-year employee who became a senior VP a watch like this as a retirement gift. Of all the things we could crap on the 15 for, this one is a non-starter. Just drop it.
Hell, I might buy myself a watch like that. A Breitling like that is a Holy Grail watch for me. (Costco has one, not identical to that one but similar, for $4999.) [Edited to add link to this watch on Costco.com. Can't see the price unless you're a member and sign in, but last time I checked, it was $4999. But I think the MSRP is $8-9k.]
From the Oxford English Dictionary:
>Middle English: from ecclesiastical Latin apostata, from Greek apostatēs 'apostate, runaway slave'.
My favourite thing about having escaped enslavement: that I am autonomous human being and not the covenented property of my family to their church.
To whit: I AM FREE
What if you requested to reserve the work for yourself and then just never do it? My understanding is that once it’s reserved no one but the reserving party can move forward with it.
I don't believe in the reincarnation part, but he is a genuinely good and wise dude. I wish more spiritual leaders were like him.
He said, "If science proves some belief of Buddhism wrong, then Buddhism will have to change. In my view, science and Buddhism share a search for the truth and for understanding reality."
That's not something you'll ever hear from an LDS "prophet".
BoM comparison machine with changes to the original 1830 version side by side.
28 page summary of BoM cheat sheet
Check out meetup.com There are a lot of groups there with a wide variety of interests. Look for ones that mention coffee shops or bars.
At work, if asked, just say "I don't like to talk about religion at work." Keep saying that and be insistent.
Being single, there is one rule that you should really follow: DO NOT - REPEAT DO NOT - START DATING A DEVOUT MORMON GIRL OR EVEN A MORMON GIRL WHO HAS A TRUE-BELIEVING FAMILY. YOU WILL BE SORRY IF YOU DO. YOU ARE VERY LIKELY TO END UP GETTING DIVORCED AND LOSING YOUR KIDS. READ THE HORROR STORIES OF ALL THE DIVORCES IN THIS GROUP.
I wish you the best of luck and hope you land a great job.
Wendy Watson Nelson.
That woman who wrote the horrible book called 'The Not Even Once Club".
When looking her up on Amazon for the book link, I see that she has written other books, too. Priestcraft, anyone?
Haha! You can get them from Nordstrom but they're usually a little cheaper on Amazon. I got mine here.
They're the best. I just got back from a trip and I wore them the whole time. Nine mile days and my feet didn't even hurt!
This is why they were idiots for getting rid of the 50-80s "deep doctrine" McKonkie/Nibley/etc. types. Our parents all had bookshelves of what were effectively the Encyclopedia of Wheel of Time or Game of Thrones but for Mormonism.
Then they decided that members should only read approved sources and most of that died away and so we were bored stiff and satisfied our curiosity by reading things wholly unrelated to the church and learned about science and history and psychology and oops it's become painfully clear that all those Mormon approved sources aren't compatible with reality.
I spend a lot of time here because every time I think I've peeled the last layer of the onion I find out there is more.
For example, I was amazed when I found out what Quentin Cook had been up to in his life before being an apostle. He and a few others stole an entire hospital from the state of California! https://www.slideshare.net/Mormons4justice/new-l-d-s-apostle-quentin-l
It is interesting stuff like that that keeps me coming back.
Okay. Noted. The Biblical Jesus said a lot of good, positive things. But "belief" is not a firm foundation. It's devoid of demonstrable evidence. Somebody here posted this link yesterday. I'm reading it, slowly. You might find it of interest as well. Just saying...
also, 0.06% of humanity practices the right religion.
edit: correct me if I'm wrong, but 4.5 million is 0.064% of 7 billion
This is huge even outside of Mormonism and I whole-heartedly agree. As an Atheist myself, I've found that the best argument against any sort of religion is to deconstruct the foundation the whole thing is built on - Faith.
Giving credit where credit is due for this approach - Manual for Creating Atheists
Here is a book about it by Ritner:
I think his axe to grind is it is not accurate and in his field. It is like nails on a chalk board. I believe one of his former students is an apologist which probably fuels his angst as well.
So have you looked at other essays like Plural Marriage in Kirtland and Nauvoo? Have fun going down the rabbit hole. If you are married I would suggest taking your spouse with you.
A local independent LDS Bookstore that deals in rare books actually had this book on the shelf a few years ago:
Prostitution, Polygamy, and Power: Salt Lake City, 1847-1918
Yup. So I took an online course from Duke University on www.Coursera.org called Think Again. It is a critical thinking class. The course is free and even if you don't want to analyze everything you read and hear you learn how to very quickly see if it is even a valid argument.
It is widely believed that tenants at the mormon mall of america are enjoying discounted or even free rent.
Unlike other malls, Shitty Creek Center was not created primarily to make money, but as a way to take control of the commercial space immediately adjacent to LDS cultquarters, and it answers to no investors or shareholders. Indeed it is designed to lose money consistently (even if it is profitable) since it is a non-profit entity.
See a recent tax return here: http://www.filedropper.com/citycreekmallform9902009taxreturn
The listed owners include all three BYUs, and even the Polynesian Cultural Center!
A case could easily be made that the mormons are stuck with the Mall no matter what, so why should they care what they charge as long as they keep it full of tenants. Big names such as Apple were willing to bail on their previous lease agreements (at Gateway, in their case) and are very likely to still be paying it per their contract. This alone is highly suggestive of a sweetheart lease deal covering Apple so they are not paying twice.
No one going to the Apple store will tell you that somehow the traffic in the store is higher now than before, in fact I bet it has dropped.
All this said, I agree with your premise and always mention if it comes up that I avoid doing any business there whatsoever.
It goes further than that though.
Oaks was author of the white paper that showed how the church was going to fight marriage equality back in 1984.
He was the one who thought they could win the culture war, and who has perpetuated it a lot in the last few years.
>Of course, the fragments do not have to be as old as Abraham for the book of Abraham and its illustrations to be authentic. Ancient records are often transmitted as copies or as copies of copies. The record of Abraham could have been edited or redacted by later writers much as the Book of Mormon prophet-historians Mormon and Moroni revised the writings of earlier peoples.
>"That is the handwriting of Abraham, the Father of the Faithful", said the prophet. "This is the autograph of Moses, and these lines were written by his brother Aaron."
>"He then took us down into his mother's chamber [in the Mansion House] and showed us four Egyptian mummies stripped and then undertook to explain the contents of a chart of manuscript which he said had been taken from the bosom of one of them. The cool impudence of this imposture amused me very much. 'This,' said he, 'was written by the hand of Abraham and means so and so. If anyone denies it, let him prove the contrary. I say it.' Of course we were too polite to prove the negative, against a man fortified by revelation." (Diary of Charles Adams, May 15, 1844, in Proceedings of the Massachusetts Historical Society vol. LXVII, 1952 p. 285)
Glad to see the church disagreeing with their beloved prophet. It's about time.
Wow. Definite violation of your privacy.
Glad you decided to get out of the cult! The nerve of this Utah hillbilly mafia, disguised as a church!
Have a departure present And the best to you!
1) The religion is a provable fraud
2) They are (frequently) not honest in their business dealings. The worst I ever saw was a "righteous" temple-recommend holding member screw his own son-in-law out of half of a multi-million dollar business the SIL had built. That and a current "apostle" of the LDS church being involved in a huge conversion fraud of public property into his own pockets:
3) If you close the door completely to converting to Mormonism, they will either disappear or disparage you.
4) If you leave the LDS church, you are worse than a nevermo, and people are often shunned and cut out of family events, wills, etc.
5) They emphasize free will and consequences, yet legislate their version of morality where they are in the majority.
To summarize: They are only nice to your face insomuch as your values align with theirs. They are super judgmental and gossipy. This may be slightly different where they are a minority and actually have to get along with people or be shunned themselves.
Fred Rogers and Winnie the Pooh taught me more about being human than any religious book or Mormon leader. When I hear Rogers say, "I like you just the way you are," I feel The Spirit^^TM. BTW that is a message not taught in church. I was always told I was broken and not living up to who the church wanted me to be, not who I was.
There's a book he wrote called, "The World According to Mister Rogers: Important Thing to Remember" that is a real piece of thoughtful inspiration. Amazon link. He wrote a few others that absolutely put all the garbage mormon leaders have churned out to shame.
Another rabbit hole I didn't know I hadn't been down...
I grew up in Provo and went to Timpanogos Elementary. Home of the Indians! (Not anymore - they're the Tigers now, and the Timpanogos Indians have gone down the memory hole). The school sits across the street from North Park, where they moved the actual Fort Utah (the structure). We used to have activities in that park all the time, including a huge "Mountain Man Rendezvous" every year). They built a water park there.
Reading the story of how the native people were treated when the Mormon settlers arrived was horrible, and sad, and completely unsurprising. And we damn sure weren't taught the actual history.
Side note: read Ibram X. Kendi's Stamped from the Beginning, the part that covers the genocide of native peoples as the U.S. swept westward. Lots of similar tactics were employed - "we promise we'll never ask you to leave your land!", "think of how much better your life will be if you give us your land, and let us trade with you!", etc.
White supremacy and white innocence run DEEP in TSCC...
The Early History of God: Yahweh and the Other Deities of Ancient Israel by Mark S. Smith is a fantastic book with (too many?) references that really paints the picture of Judeo-Christian God as just another iron age mythology, no different than any other.
RE: "Again, some nerd, please put this in a spreadsheet for me"
Your persuasive powers are really remarkable. You're a regular <strong>Dale Carnegie</strong> aren't you?
Read/ buy his book, I checked out the copy SLC Public Library has. It was actually not a terrible read. A bit more on the scholarly side of course but it doesn't surprise me AT ALL he's "secretly" NOM/ non-believer.
I mean, every page literally talks about all the reasons why mormonism is false, illogical, fraudulent, incoherent, doctrinally unsound, non-christian, dissonant, made up, fantastical etc. etc.
I kept scratching my head wondering how this guy is employed by BYU after writing a book detailing every single instance & explaining every reason for everything ever written that is ANTI-mormonism. A Peculiar People: Anti-Mormonism and the Making of Religion in Nineteenth-Century America
In the 1800s, the Church was pretty dang certain the Jesus would be back soon, so no "long game" was needed.
I work with homeless all the time. Yep, there are complications but this goes beyond. I approached someone who was not panhandling and was just walking down the street. They have put a system in place that wouldn’t let me help him except give him cash. It doesn’t work and it is cruel IMO.
From Alan Graham, founder of MLF
I'm not quite certain how the discussion between /u/huntingme and /u/1exmobadass went (one of them may be able to answer); but, for my wife and I, we obtained the CES letter from /u/1exmobadass after a family meeting. My wife and I already has serious doubts (myself having been researching for a while, but only using LDS and FAIR material). The CES letter filled in all the gaps for me, and I was sold. My wife was in the same boat. Since then, we have not been able to get anyone else to read the CES letter in the family, sadly. Though, we have distributed it to those who have asked. We never get an honest response from someone after sending the CES letter. Lately, I have been reading Combating Cult Mind Control which suggests that showing a cult member their doctrine is false, first, is not the best idea. The first approach is to show the cult member they are being controlled. A good way to prove this is the BITE model. I am currently writing a paper on this, proving how TSCC uses BITE.
I think this may be the guy? Franklin McNeil
Because they aren't "callings," they're just assignments. Mormon use of the word calling itself is a corruption or distortion of Christian jargon that means something like "a strong inner impulse toward a particular course of action especially when accompanied by conviction of divine influence." Such impulse and conviction are not typically part of a Mormon "calling" (although they can be).
Japanese Mormondom doesn't even bother with the fiction: it translates "calling" using a word (責任/sekinin) that typically just means "responsibility." So Japanese Mormons don't speak of their "callings" in the church, they speak of their "responsibilities." (Iow, instead of "What's your calling?" or "My calling is..." they say "What's your responsibility?" or "My responsibility is...")
"The great tragedy of Science — the slaying of a beautiful hypothesis by an ugly fact." - Thomas Henry Huxley
This one comes to mind whenever I hear people talk about the beauty of the Gospel, or the poetry of the scriptures, or other thoughts like that. Beauty is not enough.
> Once I started doubting god had influence over evolution, his only role became the trigger puller of the Big Bang. Then I realized a god isn't necessary for any of this.
THAT is an insight!
Have a present
Please don’t. Please call someone who can help. If you are worried about a hotline showing up in your phone history, go to a store, buy a prepaid phone, and call a suicide hotline. Or go to a online forum like https://www.7cups.com/depression-help-online/
Ha! Pretty cringy.
This is what I posted on Facebook without any commentary.
I read Crisis of Conscience when the JWs showed up at my door and spent a few sessions talking with my wife. It was written by one of their “apostles” Raymond Franz about his departure from the organization. It’s like if Uchdorft left Mormonism then wrote a tell all book about how the church really works.
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These are my absolute favorite ones!! I am ~165 and I got a large and it fits perfect!!
> I’m in law enforcement and I conduct interviews for a living.
I'm not here to tell you how to do your job, but your assumptions about memory are not backed up by the research.
>The uncritical acceptance of eyewitness accounts may stem from a popular misconception of how memory works. Many people believe that human memory works like a video recorder: the mind records events and then, on cue, plays back an exact replica of them. On the contrary, psychologists have found that memories are reconstructed rather than played back each time we recall them. The act of remembering, says eminent memory researcher and psychologist Elizabeth F. Loftus of the University of California, Irvine, is “more akin to putting puzzle pieces together than retrieving a video recording.” Even questioning by a lawyer can alter the witness’s testimony because fragments of the memory may unknowingly be combined with information provided by the questioner, leading to inaccurate recall.
The very act of you questioning them and then asking them to retell the story backward is altering their memories in ways they (and you) can't control. It's not because they are lying. It's because they're human and that's how memory works.
And your assumption that people remember the days things happen on, especially important things, simply isn't true. Some people might, but it's hardly a rule that is consistent enough to use as a generalization (as shown in the comments below; I was 27 when 9/11 happened and I couldn't tell you what day of the week it happened on).
You probably reject the "gift of discernment" as believed by LDS, but your belief in your abilities to figure out if someone is telling the truth or not is just as silly. If you want to know more, I recommend this book:
I use the VPN service called Private Internet Access. If you pay the $40/year subscription then you can use their phone app and it will bypass the DNS settings on any WiFi network so you can browse whatever site you want on TSCC's bandwidth.
Holy Cow. That bottle is cask strength! You have been gifted with something special. Be careful as it won't take much to lift the top of your skull. If that were mine, I would pour some neat into a Glencairn Glass, let it breathe for 10 minutes or so, and sip it very leisurely. If you decide to put this in a mixed drink, that's your call but I don't want to hear about it.